I hope Pres Musharraf doesn't bow down to threats. It would be a good start to get some of the women rapist out of the goverment.

Posted by: Sti at September 6, 2006 1:20 AM

Whenever are there 4 witnesses to a rape? Never! This is a good step but of course the Muslims want to keep the law so they can continue to rape women and then they are killed for adultery, no personal responsibility by the men. Islam is a male-dominated power trip; rape, kill, destroy.
Gen. Pervez Musharraf is not long in his position. The nukes are coming.

Posted by: watcher at September 6, 2006 1:41 AM

While this kind of stuff in depressing, in a way I'm glad. Religions rely mostly on women. If women in Islam, in this day and age, continue to be treated as possessions and slaves, more and more (Like Ali, Waffa Sultan etc) will reject the death cult and join Humanity.

Posted by: PAS at September 6, 2006 2:00 AM

The story fails to mention that the four witnesses have to be male and Muslim.

To PAS above: I thought so too a while ago -- that women would be the first to question the sick cult that so humiliates and oppresses them. Now it seems, despite those single brave individuals you mention, that there is no reason for optimism. Islam declares women lower than men, but as Muslims, they are still above the Infidels, all Infidels. It seems that in the all growing Believer-Kuffar divide, more and more Muslim women (particularly in the West) are choosing Islamic supremacism over sisterly solidarity or even over resistance against their own debasement. Hugh is certainly right: Islam has a strong hold over its believers, perhaps stronger than any other belief system or ideology ever had. Including those believers who are the cult's primary victims themselves.

Posted by: rahel at September 6, 2006 3:29 AM

The irony of all this is that imams are totally misrepresenting what Muhammad's intention with the '4 witnesses' rule was. For once, his intentions with that seem to have been reasonably good, as he was trying to protect Aisha from false accusations of adultery.

Of course the concept of 'rape' didn't really exist: either you owned a woman as wife, slave or booty and were free to do what you wanted with her, or she wasn't your property and you had no right to her.

Posted by: Lili at September 6, 2006 4:53 AM

Of course the concept of 'rape' didn't really exist: either you owned a woman as wife, slave or booty and were free to do what you wanted with her, or she wasn't your property and you had no right to her.

And the Quran did not change this status of women in Islam.

A muslim male still owns his wifes/slaves per the Quran.

Posted by: Jack at September 6, 2006 7:19 AM

Here comes the Islamic Republic of Pakistan, finally.

The arrival comes with a deeply offended Moslem surfing a wave of discontent called the Right to Rape Law.

* 33:21 ** 33:21 ** 33:21 ** 33:21 ** 33:21 ** 33:21 ** 33:21 ** 33:21 ** 33:21 ** 33:21 *

Jill Ireland, I still can't hear you.

Posted by: Alarmed Pig Farmer at September 6, 2006 8:14 AM

So why is it a bad thing that the rapists walk out, if even the "ruling Pakistan Muslim Party" is willing to change the law? Let 'em walk.

"Must you go, here's your hat...."

Posted by: Columba at September 6, 2006 8:44 AM

Yea, I'm always "doing it" with 4 bystanders near. What do you bet that if 3 of the 4 bystanders had the nards to testify on behalf of the victim, the court would sentence the victim to death by stoning. what freakish beings.

Posted by: mustang65 at September 6, 2006 9:35 AM

Good news really. Things will be much easier to define when the government 'dissolves' and Pres. Musharraf gets his ticking consolation prize handed to him. During the transition into the Islamic Republic we can ask India to help us secure the nukes and the world will be a safer place.

Oh, and then we can move on bin Laden from two directions and bring him in.

Posted by: A_Plague_on_Both_Houses at September 6, 2006 10:00 AM

"We will render every sacrifice for the protection of the Shariah (traditional Islamic) laws,"

No doubt then, he'll be bringing one of his children to work one day soon dressed as a shahid.

Posted by: perpster at September 6, 2006 10:09 AM

Curious over the rape law reform, just stumbled upon this piece de resistance.

"rape victims, who traditionally remain silent, have to produce at least four male "eyewitnesses," failing which they wind up on trial for the serious crime of fornication. A recent "reform": only three of the eyewitnesses are required to be Muslim males."

Commentary: Pakistan's Schools For Scandal

Posted by: infidel11 at September 6, 2006 12:56 PM

I hope Pres Musharraf doesn't bow down to threats. It would be a good start to get some of the women rapist out of the goverment.

The assumption of Pres. Musharraf as a benign modern leader who is trying to skillfully guide his country towards modernity despite the pressure he faces from the mullahs is completely flawed. Mush is, and always has been, very much aligned in his thinking to his mullah buddies. The ONLY difference between him and the mullahs is that he is far more clever than them.

Posted by: Razdan at September 6, 2006 1:43 PM

I'll bet these males were so incensed at the thought of changing their livelihoods and losing their protections to maintain their koran given right to rape, they went home and beat their wives and killed their daughters.

Posted by: freewoman at September 6, 2006 2:21 PM

What's the world coming to when a muslim can't even rape and pillage to his heart's content?

Posted by: Bohemond_1069 at September 6, 2006 3:03 PM

Just as a point of clarification, I believe it has to be four sane adult male pious ("truthful persons and abstain from major sins") Muslim eyewitnesses to the act of penetration to convict on a charge of rape, and avoid the hadd penalty for zina (adultery) and qazf (making false charges),

UNLESS the victim is non-Muslim and then the witnesses may be non-Muslim

OR UNLESS the victim is Muslim and the perpetrator is non-Muslim it probably does not matter how many witnesses

OR UNLESS the victim is a non-Muslim female captive which is of course allowed

OR UNLESS the victim is a goat...

Posted by: Concerned Citizen at September 6, 2006 3:16 PM

"We will render every sacrifice for the protection of the Shariah (traditional Islamic) laws,"

Four witnesses to rape. This gives those sex maniacs the ability to get away with rape all of the time. What is it with rape in the muslim world anyway? Why can't these so-called pious men keep their things in their pants. They just can not control themselves for some reason.

Posted by: Phximan at September 6, 2006 4:04 PM

the minority xtians have stopped reporting rape cases because the woman ends up in prison for adultery if she ends up pregnant. there are many instances of minority teenage girls getting pregnant from their masters.

funny though becuase if adultery was committed who was it commited with??? surely they should be put in prison too.

with dna stuff it would be easy to prove the adultery was with the master, etc.

just goes to prove beyond doubt that the law is nothing about adultery and everything about oppressing women and minorities. allah akbar.

to show you how pakistani moslem males think -- one came here to uni and was dismayed at the decadent west and loose women, etc, etc. he had no hesistation in bad mouthing his host country. Then one day he was chatting with an indian in terms so crude about a woman's privates even decenent western tabloid paper readers would be shocked.

He went on in graphic detail about his exploits as a tenage boy with the female sevants.

needless to say the decant west ceased to dismay me as much as its critics do.

Posted by: exposesithlords at September 6, 2006 4:27 PM

We constantly wonder here at Muslim women who don't fight back, don't get out and stay firmly ensconced in their religion. While Muslim women put up with rape, beatings, lying about whether they did or didn't have sex illegally, going to jail by being accused of adultery when complaining about rape, being murdered by a family member when raped to reinstate the family's honor, not to mention that most guys are bigger and stronger than most women and that any woman fighting back will have a large disadvantage in trying to get a good punch in and not have the crap beat out of her while trying to maneuver in a hefty bag, no one should wonder ever again.

These women are cornered at every turn. They are not protected by the legal system. They do not have the protection of their husband's, especially when human nature intervenes and he wants to get his way and the temptation to use force, physically, mentally or legally avails itself and he rationalizes that it is his right to do so. They do not have the protection of their parental units; fathers regularly give their daughters in marriage to someone they don't know and don't love and mothers, themselves the victims of years and years of the same kind of abuse, perpetuate the vicious cycle. Changing the law won't do anything to help these women if the mindest of the rest of society doesn't change.

Case in point; the lawmakers who are threatening to vacate their seats see this as an infringement on their rights, and as this is a traditonal belief in Islam as set up by Mohammad, no wonder they are ticked about losing what they think they are entitled to.

This is a sad, sad situation, frought with brainwashable landmines. If we help these women, the majority won't cooperate with us because this way of life is so ingrained in them. And if we don't there will be more and more generations of women who act the same way and are destroyed the same way. And all the while the poison of this belief system is seeping into our way of life and threatening our laws and our rights to self-determination.

Remember that when Amadinejad invites us to convert to Islam, he invites all the women of the west to voluntarily submit to this sort of misogynistic terrorism and slavery. Thanks, but no thanks.

Posted by: Isabellathecrusader at September 6, 2006 5:24 PM

Alarmed Pig farmer what is that stuff you smoke in your hookah?

Your posts are incomprehensible, especially that 33:21 and the comment about Jill Ireland (who is she and so what?)

Isabella your comments about Muslim women are true, but they are also equally valid when applied to any other women (or person) who has been inculcated and innoculated, brought up in, brainwashed into any religion or ideology.. .For my purposes I consider religion to be an ideology with an extemporal foundation. An ideology because they (all religions) are premised on some belief in some extemporal authority supported by a belief in the efficacy and truthfulness of old scrolls and books written by men whom play ventriloquist and deign to profess (sans embarassment) that they speak for the extemporal authority and have a special commission and ability to speak and interpet for that authority..

in other words man doth create his god(s) in his own image, know the man know the god and vice versa, for he doth use his god as one would use a ventriloquist dummy, to soothsay and justify policies and actions that were they to emanate from his own authority would be ridiculed and rejected.. for one the authority of one man is that of another..and is always disputable, but extemporal authority is unimpeachable and unassailable.. so go forth and do as Muhammad and other "prophets" create your own authority and use it for your own purposes.

Posted by: Nariz at September 6, 2006 7:18 PM

Given the muslim's historical track record, and the logical inconsistencies of sharia law, the eyewitnesses needed to EXONERATE the victim would probably have to be those who are waiting "on deck." Three guesses as to what they will have to say. This whole rape culture aspect is something even the apologists have a tough time reconciling themselves to, so it should be trumpeted from the rooftops. At the very least they should know what their daughters, wives may be in for under sharia. Might just shake a few out of the self imposed coma.

Posted by: We need G.C. Scott at September 6, 2006 9:02 PM

Nariz,

What is your purpose in vilifying all religions? How will it aid the cause of fighting jihad?

To make the blanket statement that women brought up in any religion are subject to the same kind of treatment as those women brought up in Islam is ludicrous. It simply isn't true.

To equate the satanic bondage of Islam with the freedom to be who I am in Christianity sounds dishonest. But maybe you don't know Christ and what he means to me. I don't know about old scrolls, ideologies or ventriloquists. But I do know that Jesus Christ gives me the freewill to choose how I will live, and that can be for Him or against Him. Having come to know Him during my lifetime, I choose to try not to offend Him as I would not want to offend you, my neighbor. Knowing Him makes my view of you different than if I worshipped the satanic god, Allah.

As a Christian, I understand your inherent worth and respect your right to your beliefs. That's a whole different ball of wax than in the Islamic belief system. As a Christian, if one of my children became pregnant outside of marriage I wouldn't seek the death penalty for them. I wouldn't like it but I would be there to help them through it. If, God forbid, one of them went through a rape, my response would be support and care, and a lot of tears, not sending out the death squad to try and get back some dillusional honor that was somehow lost when the rape took place.

No, all "gods" are not the same. There is only the one true God, the God that made you and me and He really does set you free. If you don't believe me, ask Robert. As a Catholic he can tell you. Where do you think he got the wisdom and will to fight this fight? As my senior year religion teacher, Fr. Leo Celano said, nothing happens by chance.

Posted by: Isabellathecrusader at September 7, 2006 4:32 AM

Nariz, I think APF was referring to surah 33:21 and use it to reference mohammed's treatment of women as " a good example...". The difference between Christianity and islam is self evident in the way the two cultures treat women: women in Christian nations have rights and freedom, whereas women in islamic nations have little or no freedom and rights. The way Jesus spoke to and treated women (as equals) who were not in his "tribe" or immediate family and the way islam makes women property of men with less rights than men is ready proof that Jesus was not a muslim. All religions are not equal, and all paths do not lead to God. Proverbs 14:12 says "There is a way which seemeth right unto a man; But the end thereof are the ways of death."
Islam is that false path. It "seems" right to its' followers, but instead of leading them to heaven it leads them into death and Hell.

Posted by: Bohemond_1069 at September 7, 2006 8:52 PM

Thanks, Bohemy, for backing me up.

Posted by: Isabellathecrusader at September 8, 2006 12:46 AM