Although I would be more than happy that Pope Shenouda said: Vox papa(li), vox Dei (like rest of us), I have nothing but simpaties for him. After all, leading the church which miracleously endure for 14 c. under worst tirrany imaginable is probably more than responciability. And more than miracle. He is feared not for himself, but for his allready troubled pasture. And from example above (of bishop protest suicide) and all "recent" persecutions, he wery well knows that members of religion of peace just waitting for some remarks for a little bit more torture. And he wery well knows also that west and rest of the world will do absolutely nothing to help the copts. Iam just sicken, not by his remarks, but by the picture of the future which slowely is imposed on the entire civilisation. Just hopeing, that there will be a person, a leader, who will save our kids and grandchildren of living in the world of Pope Shenouda .

Posted by: svemirko at September 17, 2006 9:10 AM

When Christians in the West start agitating for Christians oppressed by Muslims as they do for Muslims oppressed by Muslims we shall be able to speak to Copts and others clearly, but since more attention is paid to Madonna or Britney Spears than the suffering of fellow Christians under islamic Oppression you can see why they seek their own salvation

Posted by: Voyager at September 17, 2006 10:02 AM

I feel for anyone who is in such a situation. And I know it's easy for me to say this, in the comfort of my own home.

But what I wouldn't give to see people with a backbone, people who speak out regardless of the cost.

How this infuriates me.

Posted by: Mo at September 17, 2006 10:14 AM

The Coptic Pope should either resign or flee, like the Dalai Lama. He should not do nothing, he is making things worse in the long term.

Posted by: IceDragon at September 17, 2006 10:17 AM

RE: Uruba or Arabness, you are right on Hugh.

Shenouda is also clearly fearful. I have said it before, but it bears repeating: I am not a Christian. However, I believe the Copts have every right to practice their religion peacefully in Egypt (which reliable reports clearly indicate they are not currently always able to do). Thus, one can conclude that Shenouda is either a fraud or is being coerced by certain forces. I suspect the later.

Posted by: Kafir Nonbeliever at September 17, 2006 10:48 AM

"(There is in the British Museum a Persian miniature that shows a mountain of Coptic skulls, apparently from some Muslim victory, real or imagined, that had even been heard of, and celebrated in painterly fashion, in distant Persia.)"

Not imagined, Sir. muslims made pyramids of infidel skulls throughout jihad history. Here are two links, one on India, and another on Serbia.

http://www.hindunet.org/hindu_history/modern/moghal_atro.html

http://www.srpska-mreza.com/library/facts/Chele-kula.html

The muslim historians themselves have written about these atrocities. The first link has several quotes from muslim historians.

Posted by: arjun.sevak at September 17, 2006 11:31 AM

A small note for everyone:

The email address of His Holiness, Benedict XVI, is benedictxvi@vatican.va. I suggest you all give Benny a holler and tell him you support him.

[This is fard on all believers.]

Prophet Geoff

Posted by: Geoff at September 17, 2006 11:37 AM

THESE are a perfect example of the people (copts) who we should be letting into our western lands. Not the muslims who we dont even screen for anti-western views. These are the people that we should be providing a complete government backed invitation to. We should transfer them to our lands and not the muslim scum that hate us and our way of life so much. But that wont happen. It reminds me of some islands in the pacific which in 50 years will be completely flooded yet the government of Australia wont take them in as "environmental refugees" Oh no - anything BUT acknowledging the full potential of the disasterous affects of global warming (we all know the conservatives in aust/u.s are more skeptikal on the effects of GW)
The copts are a prime example of people that deserve to be treated to our western way of life.

Posted by: bff at September 17, 2006 11:38 AM

I just added the Pope, Benedict XVI, to my "Contacts" list.

That was wierd.

Geoff

Posted by: Geoff at September 17, 2006 11:49 AM

Benny?

Oh, boy.

Here's another contact, for a Catholic priest who does periodic reports on Fox News programs:

Fatherjonathan@foxnews.com

I'm sure he already knows the facts, but sending polite notes of support, and info, can't hurt.

Posted by: PRCS at September 17, 2006 12:53 PM

In a related topic, Andrew Bostom:

http://www.americanthinker.com/articles.php?article_id=5862

Posted by: StillBreathing at September 17, 2006 1:42 PM

I can hardly believe my ears, listening to Fox News, blaming the Pope for the murdered nun.

Incredible. This idiot, Jamie whoever, really wants the Pope to bow down in surrender.

This is infuriating!

Posted by: Kay at September 17, 2006 2:56 PM

I know an archbishop who knows Pope Shenouda. From what I've heard about His Holiness, I am sure he is acting out of compulsion. He is probably not in fear for his own life, but for those of his flock. He can't have much confidence that Europe or America will do anything if he stands up to his Islamic keepers.

That said, if we are to free the world of this onslaught of madness, people will have to stand up. Innocent people will die and suffer, perhaps people we know. Communism did not just wither on its own, many people suffered dreadfully to see the greater part of it die. My grandfather bore the scars of the fight against Nazism in Europe. If our leaders cannot say what is right or wrong, but capitulate every time someone is offended, we are doomed. Someone must stand for truth and right.

One would have the hope that of all people those who follow after the martyrs Peter, Paul and Mark, that is, the Popes of Rome and Alexandria, would stand unflinchingly for what is true and right as they did. If Christianity is true, it will survive.

Saint Justin Martyr was not convinced of the truth of Christianity by words, but by the fearlessness Christians showed as they were executed for their faith. St. Justin eventually also died for that faith. We have to be willing to be called intolerant, discriminators, racist or whatever. We have to be willing to suffer and die and to watch those we love suffer for what is true if truth is to prevail.

I chose the name David IV, King of Georgia, because he stood against the Islamic night that had decended upon his country. At the end of his reign, his country was free of that madness. Would not the Western press notice if the Pope of Rome was assassinated (assassin is one of the new things Islam gave the world).

Posted by: St. David, King of Georgia at September 17, 2006 3:18 PM

Speaking of skulls, I would appreciate confirmation of an allegation I read (it provided no references for verification), that, in the construction of some of the Andalusian mosques, skulls of Christians were used as part of the mortar in the walls.

Posted by: remote_control at September 17, 2006 3:20 PM

What a tragic and powerful story from Bishop John Joseph. Doesn't Mel Gibson have some fences to mend?

Posted by: limes at September 17, 2006 3:35 PM

"What if the world remains too fearful and confused ever to confront the truth?"
What indeed. Islam fears the truth, that their cult is a filthy perversion and a lie, that Mohammed (Pigs Be Upon Him) was nothing more than a false prophet, and that the Jews are the rightful owners of Israel and the holy lands. But as long as the rest of the world is intimidated or bought off by the muslims the truth will only be spokenb by those brave enough to suffer the slings and arrows like Robert, Oriana, Hugh, et al.
Jesus Christ said in John 8:32 "32 ...And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free." He also said "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me." By rejecting Jesus Christ's sacrifice on the cross, muslims have damned themselves to hell. The do not know Him adn they have no idea what the truth is.

Posted by: Bohemond_1069 at September 17, 2006 4:01 PM

svemirko said:

"Just hopeing, that there will be a person, a leader, who will save our kids and grandchildren of living in the world of Pope Shenouda."

Waiting for a strong leader to come and save us sounds like an almost surefire method for ensuring that we fall. Everyone who understand the problem has to do something. Like Spencer said recently, lets hope to see a thousand Oriannas in the future.

The huge number of dhimmis in the Western media and government and academica worked fairly hard to get in their positions, and we'll have to work twice as hard to compete in their deeply biased fields and slowly turn the tide.

But, well, you see the alternative. And conservatives do at least have a birthrate to speak of, which provides some long-term hope.

Posted by: mrsmomomoto at September 17, 2006 4:22 PM

svemirko said:

"Just hopeing, that there will be a person, a leader, who will save our kids and grandchildren of living in the world of Pope Shenouda."

Waiting for a strong leader to come and save us sounds like an almost surefire method for ensuring that we fall. Everyone who understand the problem has to do something.
-posted by: mrsmomomoto at September 17, 2006 04:22 PM

One should always hope that leaders will lead. Yet we should not quietly wait and hope. If our leaders are not leading, we have to stand up and do what we can, be it little or much. I have read lots of nauseating Islamic writings: the Quran, the Sirat, part of the Hadith so that I can knowledgeably explain why I think Islam is Satanic Evil. Sure some will call me racist and (hopefully metaphorically) spit on me. Perhaps some will listen. If our leaders are failing us, it is up to us to try to end this Jim Jones-esque madness.

Posted by: St. David, King of Georgia at September 17, 2006 4:43 PM

IceDragon: "The Coptic Pope should either resign or flee, like the Dalai Lama. He should not do nothing, he is making things worse in the long term."

How is he making things worse in the long term? Anyone with a dash of sense knows the man is a hostage, and that what he says on this subject is a genuine as what Jill Carroll said when she was a hostage. So, it isn't like his denunciations have a convincing impact on anyone with a functioning mind.

Read the posts by "have_mercy". This isn't a movie. This is life or death for people. Blame the hostage takers, not the hostages.

The US is giving the Mubarak government aid to the tune of $2 billion a year, and our academics act as apologists for Islamic fundamentalism (I've overheard two non-Arab NE profs at my school laugning derisivly about the fact that "the Copts are complainging about there persecution again", as if it were a fiction they made up), and our most prominent journalists--even conservatives!--say that we must deal with Islam like utopian relativists, imagining that it will somehow magically morph into a religion of peace and good. And we tolerate this.

This is largely a matter of taking out the log in our own eye, before griping about the splinter in that of our neighbor.

Posted by: mrsmomomoto at September 17, 2006 4:44 PM

remote-control

This is a tower of skulls not in Andalucia but in Serbia.
If you click on 'previous page' at the bottom there is a picture of some of the skulls there.

http://www.nis.org.yu/istorija/history/bojnacegru1e.html

Posted by: Silvester at September 17, 2006 4:55 PM

From the poem "voina -- vsyo zhe byla." Which actually is "war -- that's all it was", so simple.

A young Czech officer sees the futility of it all, so he goes and battles alone to death. It took six more years to defeat the Nazis, at a great cost of lives, and more than three decades before Czechs regained their freedom. In a moment of clarity, the officer knew at some deep instinctual level, so he went in there guns blazing. This is the war we are now fighting. How many decades before threats to our freedoms are removed? Why futile sacrifices by our soldiers if we can see ahead, and see what is coming? It is better to be prepared so it cannot happen. Bishop John Joseph was trapped in horrible Islamic ways we must never allow to happen here, or anywhere in the civilized world. The Islamic threat is conquerable if we ignore all their dire 'predictions' of an Islamic Jerusalem, Sharia law in the West, etc. These predictions will come to naught if we face them, and fight them. We in the West have a rich history of war, more than we wished we had, and to draw upon this history in time of crisis is understandable, and necessary. Demographic conquests by Muslims in Western states is a double edged sword, for them. If they are here, then they are closer to us, which means we do not have to go over there to conquer them. No matter how many there are, even if 30% Muslim, they are defeatable on our grounds. We should not shy away from this advantage. Rather than someday sacrificing ourselves to beat the Muslim scourge on our civilization against great odds, like that lone officer, we should attack them now, since their threats and violence has given us ample reasons. Let them cry, we will be deaf to their woes. Either they leave or they stop. Let them take responsibility for their actions, and either desist or leave. Or face our wrath. Our freedoms are not negotiable with the barbarians. Do not let 1453 happen here. If we move against them, the Arabs don't have a chance. They know it, we know it, only they are too dumb to realize we know it. So what are we waiting for? Their threats on the Pope's life was the last straw, gives us cause enough.

Let's get out of Iraq, let Sunni-Shias work it out themselves with blood, which they will do, and concentrate our forces on the world Islamic Jihad's threat to our freedoms, both here and their lands. There's the real war. Did we tolerate Nazis in our midst? Did we long tolerate them in Germany? No need to tolerate Islamic Jihad anymore. That's all it is. The truth. So simple.

Posted by: Battle_of_Tours at September 17, 2006 5:11 PM

THESE are a perfect example of the people (copts) who we should be letting into our western lands.

Perhaps but they would not CHANGE our Western lands...........and that is the political objective of the ruling elites.

Read Christopher Lasch "Revolt Of The Elites" - it is their contempt for the indigenous population and culture that makes them feel "internationalism" is their true faith rather than any loyalty to the nation

Posted by: Voyager at September 17, 2006 5:38 PM

The problem is that all our religious leaders are, and see themselves to be (quite rightly), shepherds of their flocks. They feel that they cannot be rebellious, that they cannot say what they really think, that they cannot go on the offensive against islam, because of what might happen to us, their flocks. We are not all cut out to be martyrs and our religious leaders know that. Also, we, the flocks, have not given our religious leaders clear signs and signals that we are, at present, ready to stand up to the devil-worship of islam.

Our religious leaders are in a holding pattern, so to speak, waiting for us to give them the green light to proceed. Regrettably, given the success of the islamist PR machine, they may wait forever. It is up to us on this site, no matter what our beliefs (we are all in this together) to bring Christians, and those of other faiths also, to the knowledge of just how threatening to all of us islam is. Until a majority in the various Churches can get behind our leaders there is very little that they can do, either in conscience or in fact, other than conduct a holding operation to try to ensure that we survive - for the moment.

Pope Shenouda has had his share of misfortune and torture:

On September 3, 1981, Egyptian president Anwar Sadat ordered Shenouda into exile at the Monastery of St. Bishoi. In addition, eight bishops, twenty-four priests, and many other prominent Copts were placed under arrest. Sadat replaced the church hierarchy with a committee of five bishops and referred to Pope Shenouda as the "ex-pope." On January 2, 1985, more than three years after Sadat's 1981 assassination, President Hosni Mubarak released Pope Shenouda from exile to the joy of the entire Church. He returned to Cairo to celebrate the January 7th Christmas liturgy to a crowd of more than ten thousand. (From Wikipedia at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pope_Shenouda_III .)

Also:

http://www.copticpope.org/index.php
http://st-takla.org/Pope-1.html
http://www.geocities.com/stmary_stmina/h_h_pope_shenouda_iii.htm
and this one is important -
http://jmm.aaa.net.au/articles/10405.htm
and this one is important in a religious sense -
http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_councils/chrstuni/anc-orient-ch-docs/rc_pc_christuni_doc_19730510_copti_en.html

I hope that this will help.

Dominic.

Posted by: necessitasnonhabetlegem at September 17, 2006 10:08 PM

"Please help us find justice for our son -- Hani Sarofim Nasr"
-- from a posting above

Perhaps the Mr. Sarofim who made such a name for himself in financial circles in Houston, if he is still alive, or his well-placed daughter (recently seen on television showing her house off to some inquiring reporter), will see this plea, and help the Coptic organizations in the United States with the funding they need to publicize the plight of those held prisoner, and unable to speak, back in what was, after all, once their country -- before Islam and the forced islamization and then arabization of Egypt.

Posted by: Hugh at September 17, 2006 10:33 PM

Hugh,

"There is in the British Museum a Persian miniature that shows a mountain of Coptic skulls, apparently from some Muslim victory, real or imagined, that had even been heard of, and celebrated in painterly fashion, in distant Persia."

I don't doubt you, really I don't, but I'm familiar (obviously not enough familiar) with the contents of the BM and I cannot recall the miniature of which you speak. Are you sure that it's in the BM and not in one of the other great London collections - The Wallace Collection at Hertford House in Manchester Square, for example, which is renowned for its collection of miniatures (and its Canalletos and majolika and armour - what a glory, well worth a visit)? A little more detail, please - if you can, so that we can place the miniature to which you refer. I know, I know, amongst so much it can be difficult to recall the exact one and the exact moment of discovery - and really it's irrelevant, I know, but you've whetted my curiosity and now I need to see that to which you refer. Sorry.

Dominic.

Posted by: necessitasnonhabetlegem at September 17, 2006 11:46 PM

Silvester,

The link you provided, plus the allegation I read about Iberian Muslims, makes me wonder if the use of the human skulls they had slaughtered in war as mortar in the building of mosques and fortresses was not a custom among Muslims, rather than some freak eccentricity here or there.

Posted by: remote_control at September 18, 2006 1:00 AM

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/story/0,,1874786,00.html

http://tinyurl.com/nhq23

Interesting comments.............

This article is factually incorrect. Christian perceptions of Islam as inherently violent do NOT date from the Crusades, but from the time of Muhammad himself. Here is the Doctrina Jacobi, dated between 634 and 640 AD:

"I, having arrived at Sykamina, stopped by a certain old man well-versed in scriptures, and I said to him: "What can you tell me about the prophet who has appeared with the Saracens?" He replied, groaning deeply: "He is false, for the prophets do not come armed with a sword... So I, Abraham, inquired and heard from those who had met him that there was no truth to be found in the so-called prophet, only the shedding of men's blood."

Here is Sophronius, Patriarch of Jerusalem (d 639 AD):

"Why are the troops of the Saracens attacking us? Why has there been so much destruction and plunder? Why are there incessant outpourings of human blood? Why are the birds of the sky devouring human bodies? Why have churches been pulled down? Why is the cross mocked? Why is Christ, who is the dispenser of all good things and the provider of this joyousness of ours, blasphemed by pagan mouths so that he justly cries out to us: "Because of you my name is blasphemed among the pagans," and this is the worst of all the terrible things that are happening to us. That is why the vengeful and God-hating Saracens, the abomination of desolation clearly foretold to us by the prophets, overrun the places which are not allowed to them, plunder cities, devastate fields, burn down villages, set on fire the holy churches, overturn the sacred monasteries, oppose the Byzantine armies arrayed against them, and in fighting raise up the trophies [of war] and add victory to victory. Moreover, they are raised up more and more against us and increase their blasphemy of Christ and the church, and utter wicked blasphemies against God. Those God-fighters boast of prevailing over all, assiduously and unrestrainably imitating their leader, who is the devil, and emulating his vanity because of which he has been expelled from heaven and been assigned to the gloomy shades."

Here is Thomas the Presbyter (writing c 640 AD):

"In the year [635-36], the Arabs invaded the whole of Syria and went down to Persia and conquered it. The Arabs climbed the mountain of Mardin and killed many monks there in [the monasteries of] Qedar and Bnata."

"In the year [634] at the ninth hour, there was a battle between the Romans and the Arabs of Muhammad in Palestine twelve miles east of Gaza. The Romans fled, leaving behind the patrician bryrdn, whom the Arabs killed. Some 4000 poor villagers of Palestine were killed there, Christians, Jews and Samaritans. The Arabs ravaged the whole region."

See Robert G. Hoyland, "Seeing Islam as Others Saw It: A Survey and Evaluation of Christian, Jewish and Zoroastrian Writings on Early Islam." 1997

Posted by: Voyager at September 18, 2006 1:40 AM

An example of Bishop John Joseph's writings can be found here.

It is a good article (I hope he would not begrudge a small compliment). We could use his talent and voice, now. I disagree with his act of self-destruction, not in terms of it being a mortal sin, but in utilitarian terms. We need men (and women) like him to stand up, regardless of the risk to themselves, and speak, quietly but forcefully, without histrionics or machismo, the simple truth about what is happening. The articles he could have written for JW/DW or elsewhere, under a pseudonym if necessary, ... such a loss just when we cannot afford any such loss.

Posted by: special_guest at September 18, 2006 2:21 AM

Voyager,

"Read Christopher Lasch "Revolt Of The Elites" - it is their contempt for the indigenous population and culture that makes them feel "internationalism" is their true faith rather than any loyalty to the nation"

Does the book discuss why the elites have contempt for the indigenous population and culture?

My belief is that it stems from the fact that cultures and populations with political freedom imply that the elites face constant, perpetual competition. They can be "dethroned" quite readily because of this competition.

They are therefore at war with this potential for competition. The contempt is a natural reaction for that with which one is at war, as it better enables one to inflict the harm one must inflict on one's opponent to win. Their hate of this potential for competition, and wish to destroy it, leads them to push for the thing that would eliminate it: totalitarian global political systems (global, because otherwise "brain drain" would be problem, introducing an only slightly different kind of competition).

Islam is one in a string of these totalitarian political systems, but it is one that comes with a prepackaged murderous international army, and centuries-tested mind control programme.

Posted by: mrsmomomoto at September 18, 2006 2:47 PM