Robert,

It might interest your readers that the author of this piece, Saira Khan, was the runner up in the first series of the UK version of the TV show "The Apprentice". In the UK the "part" of Donald Trump is played by Alan Sugar.

Brian

Posted by: Brian of London at October 9, 2006 8:40 AM

There is a lot of good stuff in The Times lately.

But Saira Khan is right. We never saw the hijab on the streets of east London before about 1980. In the 1960s when I was at school those Muslim girls who were uncomfortable bare legged popped a pair of navy trousers under the school uniform skirt or gymslip. Some of them added a gauzy dark blue scarf round their necks. They said it was a remnant of the veil, which finished the outfit, rather in the same way that I might wear white gloves.

Posted by: Granny Weatherwax at October 9, 2006 8:46 AM

I must confess to being bloody amazed that Straw had both the commonsense and the backbone to make these remarks.

Hope springs eternal.

Posted by: Anthony at October 9, 2006 9:03 AM

Muslim women should thank Mr. Straw for starting the much needed liberation process for Muslim women to wear much more confortable and yet decent western clothes.

Posted by: bigcatgirl13106 at October 9, 2006 9:48 AM

Since this flap broke, the usual media response has been to interview ever Muslim they can find to "ensure balance" so all a whole bunch of veiled muslim women have been trundled on to say "liberating" the veil is. But they are confusing anonimity with liberation, of course anonimity resembles liberty, if you can't be identified you can't held responsible for your actions; thus you can do what you want.

Any disguise can produce anonimity, be it a wig and dark glasses or make-up and prosthetics. That's why bank robbers wear masks, that's why bandits cover their faces with bandanas, that's why rioters cover their faces with scarves, that's why mujihadin wrap kaffiyehs round their faces, and that's why fundamentalist Muslim women wear veils.

Yes, women too can be extremists.
No, anonimity is not liberty.

Posted by: Tziona at October 9, 2006 9:58 AM

Great article.
With just the phrase: 'The veil is not a religious obligation' (and the proof that it is not), we can declare that the veil is a political act of exclusion.

Posted by: protectalbion at October 9, 2006 9:59 AM

Dear protectalbion,

"Great article.
With just the phrase: 'The veil is not a religious obligation' (and the proof that it is not), we can declare that the veil is a political act of exclusion."

Im kinda confused, Malaysian TV claims that muslim girls should ultimately wear the veil if they want to be good muslims. While it might not be a mainsteam idea, It could widely spread.

Could anyone point me in the koran about this?

I guess the Adams have to liberate the Eves.

Posted by: tjwork at October 9, 2006 10:17 AM

Are we hearing from feminist groups on this or have I not found those articles yet?

For a westerner it is hard to accept that women can be so passive, and submissive to their male counterparts.This shines brightly on the way many Muslim men have reigned dominate and controlling over Muslim woman for over a 1,000 years.

It is the western women who should be speaking and advocating out loudly at every turn with rallies, speeches,articles, and all other forms of communications to fight against the display of female suppression that rears its ugly head in open and free societies for all to see.

Come on out there! where are the Bella Abzugs of today to raise the consciousness of these oppressed woman who walk among us in free societies?

Maybe this has become part of the problem in America:

KatieO’Beirne writes, “Time and time again, I would find myself as a minority voice on panels discussing ‘women’s issues,’ and to my right and left would be professional feminists funded by my taxes. These women sit on review panels to give federal grants to each other, to study things only they care about. Every new federal law they design, aimed at addressing some inequality they identify, based on studies they’ve written, comes with hundreds of millions of dollars in feminist pork.”

Could it be that leading feminist have just simply become fat, and happy over the last 10, or fifteen years and are not willing to confront such denigrations of there other fellow women?

Posted by: Mackie at October 9, 2006 10:53 AM

The veil is particularly repugnant when the female wearing it is accompanied by a male wearing a t-shirt, jeans and athletic shoes, and attached to an i-pod.

Posted by: 3812Michelle at October 9, 2006 11:15 AM

Mackie,

It's simple: for PC people -- and most Western feminists are ultra-PC --, the value of respecting non-Western non-white cultures (most preeminently Islam, the current poster child of non-Western non-white cultures being "assaulted" by the white West) trumps the value of women's rights.

Posted by: remote_control at October 9, 2006 11:31 AM

As a woman I find the hijab/burka/niqaab (I hate knowing these words) extremely offensive. Never mind the burka and niqaab, but also the hijab screams of submission to men, and of a statement of muslimah moral superiority.

Why does having your hair covered make you modest? And not for nothing has it been called the 'rape someone else' scarf.

Do muslimas in the West ever consider the women who risk getting acid thrown in their faces if they don't wear it?

The MSM harps on constantly about the modesty of these women, as if no one else has any. Ditto with these hospital gowns, we've had to endure them for years, but then, of course, being Western, we don't require modesty.

This 'modesty' business is a cover for the fact that this clothing marks the wearer out as being under a male's 'protection', ie. ownership. It's like a miser guarding his hoard from covetous eyes.

Posted by: Silvester at October 9, 2006 11:38 AM

I saw in Paris a young girl with hijab. Her face was literally PAINTED in make up, heavy make up, mascara, lipstick, blacked eyes.

What's the point in whining about modesty and how superior you are to the rest when you look like a tramp?

Posted by: StillFedUp at October 9, 2006 11:51 AM

OT, but people may be interested to read the MCB's guidelines for schools in UK for ramadan.

http://www.mcb.org.uk/downloads/2006RamadanSchools.pdf

One 'suggestion': 'celebrate the spirit and values of ramadan through collective worship or assembly themes and communal iftar (breaking of fast).

A wonderful opportunity for dawa. When they brag about the rescheduling of their eating clock, they never mention that ramadan is also the month of jihad par excellance.

Also no swimming, you might swallow some water. And do not schedule any exams during it.

Posted by: Silvester at October 9, 2006 11:55 AM

What ever happened to that old saying "when in Rome do as the Romans do"?

Posted by: ISLAMSFORLOSERS at October 9, 2006 12:31 PM

I always have to wonder if they're looking at me and thinking I'm some kind of whore for dressing in clothes that are comfortable for me!

Exactly. Whever I see a niqab (two yesterday, none today so far) I think it's saying, 'Western women are sluts, Western men are rapists, and I'm better than you.'

Muslim women on British TV have been saying, 'If we didn't wear the veil, we would be mere fashion victims,' as if there's no halfway house between the niqab and the hanky-top'n'hipsters.

If they really wanted to blend into the background, they would wear untucked lumberjack shirts and cargo pants. No one would give them a second glance. In fact, the more I think about it, the more I think this is about exhibitionism: teenage girls (we've seen no old or middle-aged women in the niqab, as far as I can tell) enjoying their power to make everyone LOOK while frustrating their ability to SEE.

One woman asked what right Jack Straw had to require her to 'declothe', as if he'd asked her to pole-dance. Another one asked how he'd feel if they made him take part of his clothing off before they'd speak to him. Gee, girls, so if he visited your mosque he could step across the threshold without having to take anything off? ... No, thought not.

WSW

Posted by: Wild Slutty Womens at October 9, 2006 1:17 PM

wonder when the stoneing will start for those who refuse to wear it

Posted by: truthfinder at October 9, 2006 1:54 PM

I for sure don't feel the muslim women are better than me.

Let's see, I've raised my children without welfare, had pretty much the amount I wanted, I've had my own businesses, I've done pretty much what I've wanted to do and not have had to have permission to do it. I've worn bikini's, short shorts, jeans, gowns, cloppity shoes and have only worn a headscarf while riding in a convertible. I decide when to have sex, (my poor hubby sometimes), when to leave the house, what to wear and don't have to have a man to tell me when or what to eat or to come and go. My children haven't been molested by the males of my religion because the cult said it's okie dokie, because mo did it.

No. I would definitely say we Western women are above the muslim women. The muslim women are too scared of their muslim males to free themselves of their religious shackles. Women who go out and make their own ways are WAY better than women who are too afraid to change the cruddy living conditions they allow themselves and their children to endure.

Posted by: freewoman at October 9, 2006 2:01 PM

Why are they all shouting, 'We have the absolute right to wear whatever we feel like in public!'? Um, no, girls, actually no one does. During the recent summer heatwave, I dug out a pair of very tiny old shorts, tried them on, examined myself critically in the mirror and concluded that while my legs looked fabulous, the entire ensemble was nonetheless thoroughly indecent, and I should only wear them in the house.

One does have a duty not to frighten the horses, after all ...

I did once see a girl in a hijab and a hoodie with the word BASTARD on the back. Actually, it amused me for the rest of the day.

WSW

Posted by: Wild Slutty Womens at October 9, 2006 2:17 PM

The veil serves only one real purpose and it needs to come out. It stops people from wondering why the old man has a young girl with him. It allows muslim pedophiles to hide in plain sight. The women want it because they have a one in four chance of getting ordered into a bed against their will. It works well for them and they have no reason to change. If a western male was hanging out in public with a girl young enough to be his granddaughter the stares would be uncomfortable and worse, someone may question the child. Young girls are drawn to muslim males who promise the world, spend money like it grows on trees. The liberals who protect them will pay with their own children, they will meet a muslim in college and they are doomed. They will marry the young male have a few kids and get traded to grandpa (against thier will). Care to wonder what the plan will be for a nice "western looking" child?

Posted by: Ronin at October 9, 2006 2:27 PM

Germany has, what is called "Vermummungs-verbot"- and that should be adopted anywhere. Any kind of face-cover, be it while driving, robbing a bank or attacking police or assassinating whoever, is an essential tool of one has evil intentions.

Here is a nice link with some more in-depth info:

http://actuajihad.blogharbor.com/blog/_archives/2006/10/6/2391401.html

Posted by: sheik yer'mami at October 9, 2006 2:37 PM

Some Muslim women say that it is their choice to wear it; I don’t agree. Why would any woman living in a tolerant country freely choose to wear such a restrictive garment?

I believe that some of these women don't really want to wear the hijab, but after seeing a segment on CNN yesterday about converts here in the USA, I would have to say that many of them do so willingly. I personally have a problem with women being forced to wear the veil, but I am mystified why any woman born in a free western counrty would convert.

If anyone is interested. YouTube has a 3 part video of becoming muslim in texas.

http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=muslim+in+texas

This is the link to all three parts. It is amazing. One guy felt that southern baptist was not conservative enough for him. When he finally told his mother after 8 years, she said that she would have rather him say he was GAY!. To find a wife this nut got himself a matchmaker and found a Moracan wife. She was happy to be coming to the US and was not wearing her veil and looked forward to life here. Little did she know what she was getting into. He is very strict.

I don't get these people.

Posted by: Phximan at October 9, 2006 2:42 PM

but I am mystified why any woman born in a free western counrty would convert.

Posted by: Phximan at October 9, 2006 02:42 PM

In a nation of some 300 million the laws of probabability say you have to have a few whacked out nutjobs.

Posted by: ISLAMSFORLOSERS at October 9, 2006 3:34 PM

Could it be that leading feminist have just simply become fat, and happy over the last 10, or fifteen years and are not willing to confront such denigrations of there other fellow women?

Posted by: aynrandgirl at October 9, 2006 3:52 PM

The local news ran a piece about this featuring a 27 year old Muslim woman living in Manchester who had been covering for six years. She claimed that this country forced women to conform to fashions and therefore she felt liberated by covering because she was no longer… conforming.

Another I saw on a different programme was in full rant mode about the evil Jack Straw forcing Muslim women in Blackburn to uncover before he would speak to them. She was a seriously unhappy bunny.

Posted by: Mert at October 9, 2006 4:12 PM

Freewoman:
I want to raise my girls to be like you ! The world
needs more strong women. We wouldn't have this muslim problem if we had more strong women. The world is out of balance.

Posted by: Snapperhead at October 9, 2006 4:27 PM

"Let's see, I've raised my children without welfare, had pretty much the amount I wanted, I've had my own businesses, I've done pretty much what I've wanted to do and not have had to have permission to do it. I've worn bikini's, short shorts, jeans, gowns, cloppity shoes and have only worn a headscarf while riding in a convertible. I decide when to have sex, (my poor hubby sometimes), when to leave the house, what to wear and don't have to have a man to tell me when or what to eat or to come and go. "

Freewoman of all the things you listed, the average muslim woman is NOT able to pursuit ONE.

They don't even raise children, the backward education is given by males in the family.

Posted by: StillFedUp at October 9, 2006 5:12 PM

In a lot of ways, wearing a burka or hijab is screaming, LOOK AT ME!!! I'm a muslim! Well, whooptidoo. I for one, would be ashamed for the world to know I was part of a "religion" that tortures women and children, that kills people as easily as we kill flies, still considers slavery sacred to the hive, that pulls off the most ridiculous stunts known to modern man. I would also be ashamed to wear the getup around my family. My mother would turn over in her grave.

Thanks Snapperhead, that's sweet.

AIG, I think it's well known that if male children see their mother being abused day in and day out, they will grow up to be abusers. I've always believed an iron skillet up side the head of the abuser always make them think twice about hitting again. ( I've never HAD to do it, but somehow I got my bluff in and he believed it!) Some men need to be reminded who prepares the food and knows where everything is in the house. Just in case.

Posted by: freewoman at October 9, 2006 5:41 PM

Stalin realised and demonstrated that the most efficient way to control people is to take everything away from the proleteriat and then hand them back little bits for which they would be eternally grateful and worship you like a God.
This is what islam has done to its women.
The Veil is that little bit.
It says :- by wearing this you are under the protection of islam- no one will harm or abuse you as you are displaying you adoration of the muslim faith.
Thus many of those women do not realise that their human rights have been stripped from them in the first place.

Posted by: chevalier de st george at October 9, 2006 6:12 PM

>>>I saw in Paris a young girl with hijab. Her face was literally PAINTED in make up, heavy make up, mascara, lipstick, blacked eyes.

What's the point in whining about modesty and how superior you are to the rest when you look like a tramp?

Posted by: StillFedUp

Funny that!
In 2001, just a few days before 9/11, I was in a large Las Vegas casino for the breakfast buffet.
As I always do when I am in the states I wanted pancakes and maple syrup for "brekky". I saw a young woman with a hijab holding a plate of pancakes. I resolved to aske her where they were. (I was never crazy about muslims). She turned around, covered in makeup, wearing the tightest jeans I had ever seen! Good figure too.
Of course she answered most politely.

I got my pancakes, and thought her makeup would have done me for about a week. I couldn't help but wonder what the heck she was doing in a casino, let alone looking like a hooker in a hijab!

I read somehere recently that they have been told to dress covered up to scare us,,and also the dress of the muslim male.
Nothing is as divisive as being covered up like this and setting yourself apart.

Girls, great posts!

Posted by: Gramfan at October 9, 2006 7:12 PM

"But it is not a requirement of the Koran for women to wear the veil."

"“If you don’t like living here and don’t want to integrate, then what the hell are you doing here? Why don’t you just go and live in an Islamic country?”"

White Christians and Jews who challenge the veracity of Islamic religious beliefs and the religiously driven cultural practices of Muslims are typically derided as uninformed bigots.

Such derision carries less weight when it is directed at knowledgeable, life-long Muslims.

Posted by: PRCS at October 9, 2006 9:02 PM

So, in response I think every man, woman and child in Britain should start wearing masks to cover their identity, as do the 'worshippers of Islam'. Let's see what the police do when every resident is unidentifiable, perhaps ban anyone EXCEPT islamists from wearing masks?? Should be interesting.

Posted by: Coeurmaeghan at October 9, 2006 9:57 PM

Freewoman rocks- she easily beats some 500 million shroud wearers. It's too bad she and the rest of the female posters here can't lead all those mentally enslaved women out of Islamic darkness. If they could they might convince their men to straighten up and we could then have an end to this Islamaniac madness in the world.

Posted by: ISLAMSFORLOSERS at October 9, 2006 9:59 PM

I'm getting so sick of seeing these women and I am starting to see more of them popping up like pods from a science fiction movie. Sometimes it's the teenagers with the head scarves and denims and lately I'm noticing a trend of mothers in the full costume with their small daughters dressed just like them. They go to the supermarket always accompanied by a male and I get the dirty looks for dressing normal. They look like everyday is Halloween and I want to shout at them "you look like the weirdo so stop giving me dirty looks".

Posted by: pigtails not veils at October 10, 2006 12:05 AM

The pink one looks pretty feminine, eh?

http://www.townhall.com/photos/SlideShow.aspx?ContentGuid=663c4a35-9b07-4cc7-89d1-7ef55ec504c7&Issue=15

Posted by: PRCS at October 10, 2006 2:15 AM

"I saw in Paris a young girl with hijab. Her face was literally PAINTED in make up, heavy make up, mascara, lipstick, blacked eyes.

What's the point in whining about modesty and how superior you are to the rest when you look like a tramp?"

Posted by: StillFedUp

In the school where I teach, there is a teenage Muslim girl who always completely hijabs her head but will wear thin sleeveless dresses or t-shirts with no bra. Twice the principal has sent her home for improper (i.e. immodest) dress.

Her parents respond, quite accurately, that she's a teen and "teenagers like to dress different" but its okay with them because as a good Muslima she keeps her hair completely covered. The other Paki girls never wear hijab and make fun of her. One told me "I'm Muslima too but religion has made her whole family weird"!!!

Posted by: Provoslavni at October 10, 2006 12:07 PM

BTW... Here is a biographical profile and picture of Saira Khan (not to be confused with the actress of the same name).

http://www.vivienneclore.com/articles/Saira_639649_79.html

Posted by: Provoslavni at October 10, 2006 12:19 PM