These criminal gangs of rapists need to become the criminal gangs of eunuchs.

Posted by: freewoman at October 13, 2006 9:49 AM

While all this is happening, where is the US military? Oh, I forgot, they're helping the new government stay in power so these gangs can roam freely.

When Saddam Hussein and Tarik Aziz were in power, Christian women could walk any Baghdad street unveiled, and in absolute security. Now look at their status. Saddam might have been a thug, but in hindsight, he's becoming one of my heroes.

Posted by: Provoslavni at October 13, 2006 10:56 AM

Why, in God's name are we STILL HERE. Oh yeah, 'to make a difference in the lives of the people of Iraq'. To show the Mideast the 'joys of democracy'.

Posted by: poetcomic1 at October 13, 2006 11:11 AM

poetcomic1 asks:

Why, in God's name are we STILL HERE. Oh yeah, 'to make a difference in the lives of the people of Iraq'. To show the Mideast the 'joys of democracy'.

The answer is simple, but you must repeat the Bushevik credo first to really understand:

THERE IS NO GOD BUT DEMOCRACY, AND ITS PROPHET IS BUSH.

Posted by: Carolus at October 13, 2006 11:20 AM

We don't refer to him as the Mahdi from West Texas without reason, you see.

Posted by: Carolus at October 13, 2006 11:22 AM

I feel so completely useless when I read news like that - is there anything anyone can do to help these people ??

If we stay it continues, if we go, it continues.

That whole land is so traumatised I doubt it will even be 'healthy'.

Posted by: mazztr at October 13, 2006 11:30 AM

We ought to force the new government to protect all its citizens or we shall change the government. We did it once.

That said, all the answers above are not helpful as it undermines the Americans there and America's WOT. They can also be considered to be short-sighted. Wars and there aftermath were not perfect and Hussein's Bagdad was not the "heaven" that these people are trying to paint. Do we need to go back to the rape rooms and the original uses of Abu Graib? Where we these lefties then? Where was he when their hero Saddam gassed the Kurds? Where were they when he invaded Kuwait? Where were their protests when he paid cash to the families of suicide bombers? Oh that's right I forgot. They were acting as human shields. Too bad these shields were never used.

Wow, I am surprised to find where these lily- livered libs pop-up. You are the other half of the equation in the alliance between the jihadists and liberal left?

Posted by: lonewolf at October 13, 2006 11:32 AM

You libs should read the column from yesterday and its comments: "Iraq: Islamic jihadist kidnappers behead priest in Mosul" There are people I respect making these comments

Posted by: lonewolf at October 13, 2006 11:38 AM

lonewolf said

We ought to force the new government to protect all its citizens or we shall change the government. We did it once.

And we can do it 100 more times and it won't make any difference. There aren't enough infantry soldiers in the world to make the Islamic nations "protect all its citizens". That is against their religion, since they segment the world into "believers" and "infidels", and Allah has other plans for the "infidels" besides helping and protecting them (see the Qur'an for more information).

Posted by: special_guest at October 13, 2006 11:54 AM

I agree with Special guest

muslims have been killing christians since forever, nowadays it's no difference

"I feel so completely useless when I read news like that - is there anything anyone can do to help these people ??"

The only thing we can do is LEARN how to prevent this from happening in our countries.

Posted by: StillFedUp at October 13, 2006 12:03 PM

And calling us names and insulting us isn't going to change their behaviour.

Posted by: special_guest at October 13, 2006 12:19 PM

"I feel so completely useless when I read news like that - is there anything anyone can do to help these people ??"

If you belong to a religious group, go to that group and start organizing efforts to help, to figure out at least ways to make it easeir for Christains to escape the Middle East and come here. Maybe to figure out what you can push for to help make the lives of those over there better (laws enabling them to arm for self-defense seem like a good start).

Also, possibly contact your local brach of a Middle Eastern church (Syrian orthodox, Coptic, etc.), and offer to donate money or time to their efforts to help their communities in their countries of origin, or to help them with new immigrants, or with efforts to help more people immigrate to escape persecution. There are also organizations like this: http://copticorphans.org/ in Egypt, and possibly similar things elsewhere (I don't know, but you might be able to find some) that focus on making people's lives better in the Middle East.

My understanding is that there are large organizations that do things like helping, with both legal and logistics aid, to bring thousands of Somalis to settle in Minnesota (enabling them to not taxi blind people from the airport), etc. The people who set up those organizations must know a thing or two about how to possibly help the Christian groups being slowly destroyed in the Middle East. But they appear to be relatively uninterested in Middle Eastern Christians, for whatever reasons.

As far as the "libs" posting:

If the leaders in Washington had actually been accutely interested in human life and slow but workable progress, they would have researched mainstream, traditional Islamic ideology honestly and in detail, to understand the implications of that ideology for a Muslim-majority nation in times of political instability. This might have made them question the wisdom of bringing Democracy to Iraq on the assumption that doing so would be a cakewalk and they would be met with flowers.

They might have taken out Saddam and his top rung of officials, kept the rest of the government structure, and worked by applying gradual pressure on that structure to slowly push toward a more free, economically viable state. Or a number of other things, all planned with the knowledge that great care is needed in the planning, as Islam itself makes it very, very difficult to establish stable democracies in Muslim-majority countries (it encompassing its own political system, and all).

That's not what intellectuals who deeply believe in their theories about Democracy do though, we've found out. Iraq's thousands-year-old Christian Community, among others, gets to suffer for it in ways they might not have if we had done our homework. That's not the shift the core blame from the Islamic murderers and rapists, but it is to recognize that we could have done something differently, that would have likely led to a better situation. That's called taking personal responsibility, and that is a very *Conservative* thing to do.

This absolutely does NOT mean we leave now, by any means, and it also doesn't mean we should have stayed out of Iraq, like liberals think. It *does* mean that we need to recognize our mistakes and what they led to, to learn from them, and possibly to avoid repeating them.

Posted by: mrsmomomoto at October 13, 2006 1:04 PM

Persecution of Christians is a normal social condition in any country of the Islamosphere. According to historian and author Serge Trifkovic, during the twentieth century, tens of millions of Christians were massacred in the Islamic lands (and in lands adjacent to them). In the Nigerian region of Biafra as many as five million Christians may have lost their lives during the jihads waged by Muslims there in the 1960s alone. In Armenia, during the period from 1900 to 1916, close to 2 million Christians were massacred by Turks. Neither case is an aberration; many other cases can be found of such atrocities perpetrated against Christian minorities by Muslim societies in the twentieth century--pick your favorite example.

Notice that the leftists in the west (who are in but hardly OF the western world) rarely focus their attentions on REAL HUMAN RIGHTS abuses. Apparently it is asking too much of them to ask them to dismount their anti-American, anti-western, anti-Christian high horses and deal with truly serious issues facing humanity.

Posted by: pythagoras at October 13, 2006 1:52 PM

According to prior notes above, these attacks didn't happen during Saddam's times. So 'special guest' are you saying that he can do it and we can't? Are you saying the democracy can't do it, but dictatorships can?

It sounds like you want to go take this mass murderer Saddam off the docket and put him back in power. This is absolutely NUTS given that we know he has used weapons of mass destruction in the past and would have again in the future, had he been given the chance.

It took 400 years for the church and medieval Europe to react to Mahomattan encroachments. How long is it going to take us?

As far as the name calling, if the shoe fits.....

Posted by: lonewolf at October 13, 2006 1:53 PM

test

Posted by: duh_swami at October 13, 2006 2:40 PM

I can understand that we’re still there because we can keep some semblance of order while we’re there, but we’ll have to leave at some point, won’t we? At that point, they’ll be left on their own. It’s not our responsibility to show people who have resided in this area of the world for as far back as mankind has been in existence how to create a civilized, self-governed society. It’s not our responsibility and they should be fully capable of it themselves.

The fact that they can’t get along and continuously kill each other just goes to show the failings of that part of the world in their governments, their religious beliefs, as well as their overall mentality. These people should all be ashamed of themselves and the world they’ll leave for their children. If they aren’t ashamed, they should be.

Posted by: MaxInfidel at October 13, 2006 3:58 PM

lonewolf said

According to prior notes above, these attacks didn't happen during Saddam's times

Now I don't know what you're talking about. You said yourself that the "rape rooms" existed under Saddam. Maybe you're talking about Provoslavni's comments, but I disagreed with Provoslavni in another thread; I think Provoslavni is being sarcastic in his/her praise of Saddam, but that's just my opinion.

Are you saying the democracy can't do it, but dictatorships can? [...] you want to go take this mass murderer Saddam off the docket and put him back in power

I've have people mis-state my position before, but that takes the cake. I don't think any government is sanctioned to set up "rape rooms". If I needed to say that.

So let me be more clear: the "rape rooms" probably existed before Saddam, they existed under Saddam, they exist today after we put in a new government, and they will exist tomorrow if we put in another new government. The problem isn't the government of Iraq, it's the teachings of the Qur'an, and what it says is acceptable behavior towards non-Muslims.

[Saddam] has used weapons of mass destruction in the past...

...against fellow Muslims (Kurds and Iranians). I'm no fan of Saddam, but he was a danger to Muslims, not Westerners. He invaded Kuwait, not Kansas. If we want to kill him and destroy his government, well okay. But trying to force Islamic nations to treat everyone nice everywhere in the world? That's ludicrous. Stop them from attacking us? Yes, of course. Expect them to behave just like us? No, that's ridiculous.

To summarize: You said that we said should force the Iraq government to treat its non-Muslim citizens equally well as Muslim citizens. I replied that that is beyond our ability to enforce in an Islamic nation. You replied by saying I want to set up "rape rooms" and put Saddam back in power. Does that sum it up?

As far as the name calling, if the shoe fits.....

You know what? I've got a completely different idea where that shoe might fit.

Posted by: special_guest at October 13, 2006 4:15 PM

For crying out loud -- If the families of these girls can come up with thousands of dollars for ransom, surely they can come up with a few hundred to buy hand guns on the black market and arm each member of the family over the age of 12, which is when I earned my sharpshooter medal.

Posted by: Malinois at October 13, 2006 4:54 PM

Good afternoon folks,

Please, PLEASE buy a copy of Brigitte Gabriele's book called, "Because They Hate." I got my copy yesterday with Robert's book about Mohammad and couldn't put it down. She gives the clearest, most concise reasons for why this is happening and how we Americans are beginning to go through exactly what she went through as a Christian child in Lebanon only thirty years ago, which might as well have been yesterday.

These people who rape like some kind of Ork from hell, with no conscience, cannot be depended upon to change their minds by "dialoging" with them. The purpose of this despicable behavior is to do just what it has done, to destroy a human being, body and soul, and leave those who observe it with no hope of anything but a meaningless existence, toiling away as some sort of slave of Allah? Who the hell wants to live a life like that? And make no mistake, we here in America are being dhimmified every second of every day as we frogs in the pot get more comfortable sticking our heads in the sand and pretending that everything will be alright while thses Islamic bastards plan their gang rapes for our American and European sisters, mothers, wives, friends and selves.

I can think of only one force that would enjoy this sort of devastation, but then, he convinced everyone that he doesn't exist back in the 1960's.

Posted by: Isabellathecrusader at October 13, 2006 5:24 PM

Mother E,

You don't sound like nun who was principal of my Catholic elementary school when I was growing up. But I wholeheartedly concur.

Posted by: Isabellathecrusader at October 13, 2006 5:27 PM

Malinois,

Good point on buying the guns. The problem is that Christians don't think the way Muslims do. As a Christian I've often thought about what would happen if someone tried to attack my children. I always think I will take them out immediately, and maybe I will. But I've never had to come face to face with that situation and I wonder at other times if I might hesitate, even for a second, to take another life. If I might not pull the trigger because death is so permanent. If I had to guess I think I'd pull the trigger and ask questions later, if someone was threatening my babes.

I think in order to fight this Muslim mentality we will have to change our way of thinking and become ruthless, like they are, if we are to survive. In Brigitte Gabriel's book, "Because They Hate", she talks about growing up in southern Lebanon where the Christians and Muslims got along and worked side by side, even governing together. Her best friend as a child was a little Muslim girl named Khadija. But after the PLO came into her town and started firing missiles at Israel, (she lived right over the border,) and Israel started lobbing them right back, the Muslims started to get a little uppity and spent most of their time in the hills across the valley trying to pick off the Christians with sniper fire when they weren't bombing the heck out of them. Brigitte talks about not understanding why her old neighbors would want to do this. As time went on she came to realize that it was because they hated the Christians, for no other reason than that they were considered infidels. This is an interesting concept, because most of us in the west know Muslims or work with Muslims who act like they are our friends or at least friendly co-workers. How is it that their religion allows them to turn on a dime and annihilate, with no feeling, people they've gotten to know and spend time with? Can this superiority complex that Muslims have developed be based on anything besides a delusional mob rule mentality? I mean, what do they have to offer society? Allegiance to an outdated, obsolete "religion" that does nothing to elevate or edify, does nothing to bring one closer to God or closer to ones' neighbor. And why the hell are we still putting up with the dhimmi mentality from our fellow American and European friends, neighbors and business associates? Because they are uncomfortable when we talk about this? Do you think they might be more uncomfortable being used as a sperm receptacle for 20 or more stinking, filty, Muslim pigs who think gang banging is the ultimate extra curricular activity?

Posted by: Isabellathecrusader at October 13, 2006 5:49 PM

"against fellow Muslims (Kurds and Iranians). I'm no fan of Saddam, but he was a danger to Muslims, not Westerners. He invaded Kuwait, not Kansas. If we want to kill him and destroy his government, well okay. "

according to this statement Hitler and Mussolini could stay in their place, none of them was threating USA...

of course we know it turned out differently

Posted by: StillFedUp at October 13, 2006 6:12 PM

Motherf*ckers.

Posted by: cruzado at October 13, 2006 6:17 PM

Iraq is like one of those hands in Poker where you've committed more than half your pot, and you just want to see the last card, even though all you have is 2-3, and there's A-K-Q-A on the board. Get the hell out of their. Nam repeated. We have no reason to be there.

Reform will never happen within Islam, so I say we just build a huge wall around the Middle East and all the other Islamic countries, and never look back. That way, when Hell actualy does freeze over, and Islam has reformed, we can break down the wall and embrace in a hug. Until Hell freezes over, though.

Posted by: TheVoiceofTruth at October 13, 2006 6:27 PM

Mother E,

Yeah, Fernando and I had a heck of a time getting those guys out of Spain. It was heartening when we took Granada though, to see all the Christian prisoners who had been in the dungeons under the city for who knows how long, coming out in the sunlight and praising God for their deliverance. It brought a tear to my eye.

But seriously, I'd like to hear more about the soldier-sister thing. Do you mean that these were nuns who also fought? I can think of a couple I had in grade school that could be pretty darn scary. I had some cool ones too, though. Sr. Carmel, who was my eighth grade principal told us one time in her thick Irish brogue that she was normal, you know, that she had five toes like everyone else. Right before we graduated we gave her cards that we'd made and one of the girls drew a picture of her with two toes on one foot and three on the other. We all died laughing.

And that's the point, isn't it? That humor and sisters and our way of life is worth fighting for.

One of the things that Brigitte talks about in her book is that when the Muslims come in, the Christians that can, get out. And that's exactly what the Muslims want to see. Well, I live in America and I'm not going anywhere. So I have to fight. I'm glad to know that there are tough chicks like you that will be backing me up. And right back atcha!

Posted by: Isabellathecrusader at October 13, 2006 7:38 PM

Apparently Christians have fled across the border to Syria by their tens of thousands and hate the US for what it has done. Talk about the law of unintended consequences!

Posted by: wallyUK at October 13, 2006 7:41 PM

This is happening in Baghdad where kidnapping has become a growth industry.

I would submit that Mohammed may have been the most successful kidnapper in world history. It's right there in the Sunnah, with the first job being the caravan robbery felony murder kidanapping at Naklah.

In other words, these kidnapper rapists are in the game for the jing or the hot sex; they're just celebrating the Sunnah, which God commands all good Moslems to do in Koran 33:21.

* 33:21 ** 33:21 ** 33:21 ** 33:21 ** 33:21 ** 33:21 ** 33:21 ** 33:21 ** 33:21 ** 33:21 *

Say, aren't our Moslem neighbors now celebrating Ramadan, which is to say celebrating the Battle of Badr, which of course was caused by the pagans getting really really pissed about that very same caravan robbery felony murder kidanapping?

Posted by: Alarmed Pig Farmer at October 13, 2006 7:57 PM

Lonewolf, Mrs. Momomoto, etc.: You can't make anything out of cookie dough except cookies.

Perhaps one reason why our elites never honestly looked at what islam really was was because they simply couldn't imagine any society where a traditional theism was truly relevant. If religious, they generally belonged to sects of Judaism or Christianity that thought that God was somehow beholden the prejudices of men (and now, in deference to the feminists and others, of womean and transgendered persons as well). That is why Foggy Bottom caves in to Sa'udi insistence that nobody bring in a Bible; and why the whole American elite was blindsided by Khomeini back in 1979. They have only begun to learn; but, unfortunately, their best guides are still in denial about the ugly side of Islam.

The only problem with leaving Iraq at this point is that we'd face a couple decades of highly emboldened jihadis who would radicalize a few more countries before doing themselves in with their own internal divisions. I am certain that a lot of Asia, Africa, and Europe would be a smoking, polluted, impoverished ruin by the time it was over--but Islam would have done what it always does best, namely, indulge in vigorous self-destruction.

Posted by: Kepha at October 13, 2006 11:11 PM

May God Bless and Keep the souls of these poor unfortunate children close.

Posted by: sul3j at October 13, 2006 11:23 PM

You know folks, when 9-11 happened, I didn't know anything about islam. And when we went to Afghanistan and Iraq, I thought it was the right thing to do. Then I learned about islam, through this website. And I really don't know, what do we do now. Leave them to themselves, what about the Christians that are there? They need to be able to leave because our government doesn't understand/realize the threat of islam. Our guys need to leave, but what are we left with? Islam. That's not a good thing. I pray that the Christians and other minority religions are able to leave the hellhole that Iraq has become, to be free. I also hope the country is divided up into three states, so that the Kurds will remain free and the other two can fight it out. But the Christians there need our help. God help us all.

Posted by: watcher at October 14, 2006 2:00 AM

Christians who opt to stay in muslim lands are choosing dhimmi status. That means they are subject to random pogroms, random rapes. This has been happening for CENTURIES. And these families, who choose to stay there, and have chosen to stay there over CENTURIES, have made their families, especially their daughters vulnerable to the predations of savages.

THIS is NOT our responsibility, and for those suggesting that it's our fault, that muslim savages are emerging from the darkness to prey upon Christians, they're ignoring what muslims have been doing for centuries. These Christians, instead of lambasting this administration, would do better to shut the frick up, pick up a weapon, and start fighting back, and reject once and for all, their pathetic subservient dhimmi status.

The Greeks long ago had to reject forcibly their dhimmi status, likewise the Balkans. These Christian dhimmis are getting savaged, what the hell did they expect.

Posted by: Dan at October 14, 2006 2:24 AM

God bless these poor girls.

Rape and terror in the name of Allah.

Satanic Islam.
You mohammedans only hasten the day of Islam's end with every act of barbarity.
The entire World is getting fed up with your garbage.
One day the World will unite and put an end to you.

Would Jihadwatch would be a more suitable forum for this?
Jihad in all its filthy putrescence.

Posted by: Mike_W at October 14, 2006 4:48 AM

Dan's post needs repeating. He's spotlighted the fallacy of an important element of current dhimmihood discussion as undeservedness or innocence. Christians as a group living in Muslimland, after centuries of persecution can no longer justifiably claim real victimhood status - if they do, then they're playing psychological games that are richly rewarding for them. Remember the fairy tale of Little Red Riding Hood? LRRH is the Victim of the wolf, who is her Persecutor, and she needs a Rescuer - enter the not too disinterested Marines, who are now playing the dual role of Persecutor of the Victim Muslims in the Terrorist's press and Rescuer of the "oppressed" Muslims in the US Congress, after having been the designated Victim of their own Persecutor, the Jihadis. It's an endless drama triangle that's been played out since the the dawn of civilization. I use to beg my Greek husband to put away the Roman short sword he keeps by the bed; now I know why he wouldn't and I honor him for it.

"Christians who opt to stay in muslim lands are choosing dhimmi status. That means they are subject to random pogroms, random rapes. This has been happening for CENTURIES. And these families, who choose to stay there, and have chosen to stay there over CENTURIES, have made their families, especially their daughters vulnerable to the predations of savages.
THIS is NOT our responsibility, and for those suggesting that it's our fault, that muslim savages are emerging from the darkness to prey upon Christians, they're ignoring what muslims have been doing for centuries. These Christians, instead of lambasting this administration, would do better to shut the frick up, pick up a weapon, and start fighting back, and reject once and for all, their pathetic subservient dhimmi status.
The Greeks long ago had to reject forcibly their dhimmi status, likewise the Balkans. These Christian dhimmis are getting savaged, what the hell did they expect." ~Dan

Posted by: Malinois at October 14, 2006 8:36 AM

Dan,

They may not have had the ability to leave. Poverty is one possibility; another is force. Why would islam allow its ancient tax base to simply depart?

Geoff

Posted by: Geoff at October 14, 2006 10:09 AM

Special_guest & Lonewolf,

My defence of Saddam is somewhat tongue in cheek but contains some truth compared to what's happening now.

Posted by: Provoslavni at October 14, 2006 12:23 PM

Special guest:

Thank you for making this personal. Whereas I see your line of reasoning as being liberal, you want to stick your foot where? That is modern liberal thinkin: personal attacks vis-a-vis debating the issues. So thanks for proving my point about you being a liberal.

Posted by: lonewolf at October 14, 2006 12:45 PM

On the subject of why the Christians don't leave, again, back to Brigitte Gabriel's book, "Because They Hate." She talks about what happened to her comfortable house, gardens and her dad's restaurant in Lebanon after the beginning of the Muslim onslaught on 1975. Half her house was destroyed and because her dad didn't trust what was about to happen in his country, he had taken all his money out of the bank and hid it in their mattresses. When the first attacks hit, Brigitte was severely wounded when her bedroom wall fell in on her. She talks about seeing fire all over the place and in that same attack her dad's fortune went up in smoke. For the next seven years she and her elderly parents lived in a makeshift underground bomb shelter with no electricity or running water. They wanted to leave but couldn't because they had no money.

This was a family where the dad had been a government worker, took a lump sum retirement and also opened a popular restaurant in his home town. The family was well off. Brigitte came along when her mom was 54 years old and had ten years of private school and a good life. Then hell came to her town.

How often does this happen when the Muslims are on the move? And how often are we as humanity surrendering to the damned Muslim mentality by up and running? Brigitte talks about how her life got better once the Israeli's had had enough and chased the Muslims back to Beirut. Is there a lesson here somewhere? As we get our people out, Muslims swallow up more land, which they claim for Allah, and then we've got that much more work to do to reclaim it.

What we need is leaders who will stand up and tell the truth about what is really going on in our world. Read the book. Learn about what it is really like, not theoretically. Brigitte Gabriel lived this nightmare and she is screaming at us to pay attention because she doesn't want to have to live it again. Send it to your representatives and tell them that they must stand up for us or we will elect others who will.

One more thing, Brigitte also talks about how when the Palestinians were displaced that Lebanon took them in. As a Christian country, Lebanon gladly helped the Palestinian people. Here's the main point; the Palestinians came, got help, then started taking advantage; started demanding their rights and then it was a matter of a very short time before they turned the once lush and beautiful country of Lebanon into the unbelievable Islamic hellhole that it became. Does this remind us of anything?

Posted by: Isabellathecrusader at October 14, 2006 1:27 PM

Dan:

"Christians who opt to stay in muslim lands are choosing dhimmi status. That means they are subject to random pogroms, random rapes. This has been happening for CENTURIES. And these families, who choose to stay there, and have chosen to stay there over CENTURIES, have made their families, especially their daughters vulnerable to the predations of savages."

"These Christians, instead of lambasting this administration, would do better to shut the frick up, pick up a weapon, and start fighting back, and reject once and for all, their pathetic subservient dhimmi status."

You have a point.

Still, a great many left before this current situation. And this situation is causing a great many more to leave. Maybe the ones left behind are trying to leave but can't leave? Not that that means we should compromise our security to give them time.

Also, comparison with the Greeks and Balkans seems off. The Greeks and Balkans were in geographical areas (bordering on major Christian powers) that were more conducive to their being able to fight effectively. Crediting a difference in will, alone, for their relative success seems inaccurate.

You're right about that they should be buying and keeping firearms. I suspect that most of them do, but for defending themselves. I also suspect that the reason they don't take your plan to go fight in the street is because, given the numbers, they'd be quicky exterminated. Better for them to focus on defending, while making the plans to get the heck out. (We could, at no harm to ourselves, help by giving them the immigration slots currently slated for the Somalis so unable to assimilate that they don't let blind people into their cabs.)

Most of all, you are absolutely right in that concern for the non-Muslims in Iraq should not tie our hands from doing what we need to do do avoid eventually falling into their situation. However, I would stipulate that our administration's failing to plan sufficiently for post-invasion (Given that a Muslim country, in being Muslim, is obviously critically different from post-WWII Germany or Japan) doesn't help us any more than it helps the Iraqi Christians. That's my primary basis for criticizing our administration as I did above, not the fate of the Iraqi Christians. Their fate is a secondary problem.

Posted by: mrsmomomoto at October 14, 2006 3:58 PM

Kepha:

"Perhaps one reason why our elites never honestly looked at what islam really was was because they simply couldn't imagine any society where a traditional theism was truly relevant."

They've never heard of books, then? You know, the small papery things that help you imagine life in situations other than your own?

If their imaginations are this drastically impoverished, maybe they aren't our elites intellectually, and shouldn't be our elites politically. At any rate, they get zero pity from me for their serious failure of imagination. (And they get some of my support only because the alternative is moonbats.)

"The only problem with leaving Iraq at this point is that we'd face a couple decades of highly emboldened jihadis who would radicalize a few more countries before doing themselves in with their own internal divisions. I am certain that a lot of Asia, Africa, and Europe would be a smoking, polluted, impoverished ruin by the time it was over--but Islam would have done what it always does best, namely, indulge in vigorous self-destruction."

You have a point, but I'm not totally convinced.

We leave. We save the resources needed to prop up some sort of government over Iraq. Sunnis and Shiites fall into civil war. Other Islamic nations funnel resources into their respective sides, but, at least at first, take care to prevent the conflict from coming to their countries. Lots of Muslim men and Muslim resources are used up in war. However, those men that remain are more bold and trained dedicated than they otherwise would have been (albeit, likely dedicate to hatred of the opposing group of Muslims).

Here's what makes the difference to me:
Can we establish governments in Muslims contries that contol the populations in such a way that they prevent them from engaging in terrorizing us, and slowly push them out of the dark ages, with tiny steps of freedom, economic progress, and with theological reformation? If so, this is better than eventually having to deal with hardened fighters, and I grant your position.

If not, we are going to have to war in the Middle East for more than to just set up governments. We have to fight to reduce the number of people intent on killing us, possibly even with nukes depending upon what happens in the future with N. Korea and Pakistan, for refusing to adopt their religion and its political system. Are we better off draining our resources fighting this now, or are we better off fighting this after the Islamic world has been largely drained of men and resources by fighting itself, despite the fact that that means those who remain will have been battle hardened? I don't know.

The reform option would be the very nicest, but the niceness of it shouldn't make it look more possible than it is.

Posted by: mrsmomomoto at October 14, 2006 4:06 PM

Why do we bother putting up with this evil? This is SICK SICK SICK. These thugs need to be taught a severe lesson - if Saddam had one thing right it was to keep many of these demonic animals in such fear of their own stinking worthless lives they dare not put a foot out of line.

I've got half a mind to go to that cesspit of a country armed with pigsblood bullets and go Rambo there.

Just animals, the whole damned lot of them. Let's just nuke the whole blasted area.

Posted by: Jerusalem at October 14, 2006 4:57 PM

lonewolf, I'm sorry if I hurt your feelings.

Posted by: special_guest at October 15, 2006 2:27 AM

I say, "Off with their heads!!", in the nether region.

Posted by: champ at October 18, 2006 2:10 PM