I guess these are the kind of Catholics, best described by Pope Benedict as " Filth that needs to be removed from the church".
Dhimmitude has gained such a tight grip on all of our institutions, all in the name of inter-faith dialogue and multiculturalism. Enough already, it's high time that the multi-cultis and dhimmis pay for their crimes. They have sold out Europe and now it looks like they are handing control of Catholic institution's to preach Dawa upon young Christian children, Christ should be what they are thought not the rantings of a pot bellied child molester, who's
only claim to fame is creating the greatest mass
murdering cult the world has ever seen.

Posted by: sul3j at October 23, 2006 9:30 AM

Gaah!!!!!!!!!

I'm horrified! Let's hope somebody in the Catholic Church clamps down on them. Time for those 60's libbers in positions of leadership to go.

Posted by: Monkeywho at October 23, 2006 10:17 AM

I starting to understand why my query on how many muslims work and live in vatican city went unanswered.
The answer would be embarrassing I dont think we will be able to count on the CC to support any resistance to Islamic imperial jihad in all its flavors

Posted by: KAOSKTRL at October 23, 2006 11:06 AM

Boy, a lot of what Lenin said is still coming to pass, only now we can replace the commies with the Islamaniacs. The West will indeed sell them the rope with which to hang it. Or is it the swords that will behead it?

Posted by: ISLAMSFORLOSERS at October 23, 2006 12:28 PM

KAOSKTRL et al:
Please do not despair of us Roman Catholics. Our new Pope has the Aegean Stables to clean up BUT he is up to the task. Deo Gratias. And what most inspires me are our young people. I am a member of a RC parish in Chi town that has had permission for over 12 years to retain our Tridentine Mass and beautiful traditional devotions, music and worship. Our pews are filled with families and many, many young people who mock the "with it" relativism of the parishes they have fled for ours. Our choirs number four including a children's choir.

Now Benny 16 is poised to make that "permission" from the bishops (mostly 1960's Kumbaya Katholics resistant to any) unnecessary and allow our young priests who are eager to celebrate the Tridentine Mass to do so in ANY parish.

Okay, so you non-Catholics, unfamiliar with my Church's 40 year culture war, may ask what this has to do with Islam. Well as I see it the Devil (very real though not to Western sophisticates) appeared in that cave in 610 AD about the same time it was becoming clear that his plan to use Arianism to destroy Christ's Church was not going to work afer all. A new, even more militant and deadly heresy was needed. No problem for the Prince of Lies to call himself "Gabriel" and designate an illiterate with a self-esteem problem as his useful idiot.

Heresy cannot be negotiated with nor given warm-fuzzy kisses of peace to make it disappear. A robust faith -- robust meaning a good strong sense of purpose and a firm theological immune system -- is the only way Islam will be confronted successfully. I see in this Pope and our young people that kind of robust sense of their Catholicism. I am not saying secularists cannot fight Islamic Jihad. I AM saying however that people who fight for strongly held principles, virtues and faith fight harder than those who fight to save their fashions, their martinis or their NY Times.

Posted by: bevc at October 23, 2006 1:07 PM

Islam institutionalizes murder. That is a fact that the world has been forced to endure for 14 tragic centuries. The last thing that the world needs is another 100 years of Islam's murder and mayhem!!

It is a sin for Catholics or any members of any Christian denomination have ANYTHING to do with Islam! Islam's institutionalization of murder is believed by Muslims to be a command from God and as such is non-negotiable and fixed in virtually ALL Islamic doctrine. The non-Islamic world will ignore this reality at its peril.

By assisting Islam, this Catholic publishing house is making itself an accessory to murder, nurderers, and conspirators in murder.

Ignorance of the facts does not excuse these Catholics. The Spaniards of all perople should know all this by now.

This in fact is about the craziest thing I have ever heard of. Good grief!

WORLD: WAKE UP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Posted by: pythagoras at October 23, 2006 2:28 PM

“foster intercultural encounter and religious dialogue, with the integration of Islamic values in the socio-cultural context of Spain"

Posted by: aynrandgirl at October 23, 2006 4:05 PM

bevc, your conception of the nature of Islam as a heresy inspired by Satan must be officially recognized as such by the three Branches of Christianity, including the RCC. Otherwise, Catholics, and Christians in general, will continue floundering in disorganized fashion.

Posted by: remote_control at October 23, 2006 4:14 PM

SM, says the purpose of their decision to publish Muslim texts “is to foster intercultural encounter and religious dialogue, with the integration of Islamic values in the socio-cultural context of Spain,”

Man, I think I am going to puke...

Smells llike a CINO, Catholic in name only....

Posted by: adobe at October 23, 2006 4:49 PM

Voice your complaints to the the Marianist religious order of priests, brother, and nuns.

I miss the warrior priests who were not afraid to lead soliders into a battle.

Bring them back.

We need them today to help Christianity.

Posted by: Johnathan at October 23, 2006 10:36 PM

Both the recent and distant history of Spain might help throw some light on the problem of increasing PC-ness in the Spanish government and church.

I have heard it said by Spanish neighbours (I live in Spain) that when the current government came to power very shortly after the Madrid bombings a couple of years ago, they never expected to do so, and so their policies and foreign policy, in particular - were particularly susceptible to manipulation: in other words, they were made to hold to pre-election promises: witness the unilateral withdrawal from Iraq and, secondly the disease of political correctness from which it now appears to suffer.

Having said that, the overwhelming majority of Spanish (including the secular modernizing liberals) still see the country as an overwhelmingly Catholic countryis the . This is particularly true the further one gets from the metropolis (a phenomenon found also in the UK, not surprisingly) Symptomatic of this is the pride they take in their history, such as not being at all shy about events such as the reconquest when they expelled the Moors in the time of Ferdinand and Isabella.

The problem with their 20th century history, however, is that the Civil War was prompted to a large degree by the threat to the Catholic church posed by internationalists. In effect, it became a war by proxy. Not surprisingly, nowadays, despite the modernising PC-ness of the central socialist govenment, at a local level one is farmore likely to find coalition. The Catholic church is still strong and I can see no sign of it lapsing (as has done, say, the Church of England: which is why we have such a problem in the UK.) Added to that, Spain is the spiritual home of Opus Dei - hardly an organisation that would take less than militant line on the issue of Islamic proselytization and ecumenicalisation is a relatively unknown concept here.

Posted by: jaimehuelva at October 24, 2006 2:27 PM

Jaimehuelva

I think you are very optimistic. Churches in Spain are empty and lots of people are anti-Christian.
The cozying attitude towards a dictator is what has brought about the present godlessnenss in Spain.

Posted by: rocky at October 24, 2006 11:31 PM

I mean that the Catholic church and the Vatican sided openly with Franco and have always sided with corrupt Spanish central governments from colonial times.

People nowadays see through the hypocrisy. The Catholic church is paying for its past sins.

Posted by: rocky at October 24, 2006 11:33 PM

Well - the churches may not be as full as they once were. But by British standards, however, the Catholic church is very much alive and kicking - certainly in my part of Andalucía. And, more importantly, until very recently - hence the furore about publishing Islamic texts -their notion of ecumenicalism was not the same as the Church of England's, which makes it all the more suprising that they seem to be seeking an accord of sorts. (Though this, clearly,is impossible!)

Given the (Spanish) church's continuing role in the significant events in peoples lives I still cannot see it fading away. No matter how trendy and metropolitanly "PC" leftish tendencies become, mama has and will always know best when it comes to baptisms, weddings and funerals. It was still an own goal, however, to publish - and, it seems to me, pretty stupid.

(The senior management cannot have been that dull, surely? Or is it like the Pope's recent speech - designed to provoke and far cleverer than it might otherwise seem at face value. Despite what people may think, he has not retracted the veracity of the assertions about Islam made within a quotation from a mediaeval source: one has to consider the meaning of his words very, very carefully. As one of the cleverest men in the Vatican before his election to the pontificate, I cannot believe he left his brain out of gear when he accepted the job. It is not credible. Remember, a spokesman saying something is not the real thing and an an expression of regret is not an apology. We had the same thing in the UK at about the time Emperor Hirohito visited the Queen: much was made about his "regret" about the treatment of Allied POWs in the Far East. Not the same thing at all!)

Rocky may be right when he calls me "optimistic"!

While I agree absolutely with his contention that the "Catholic church and the Vatican sided openly with Franco" it is precisely that that is the point I sought to make. The Spanish sought and found salvation from the right-wing: not the left. Some still do. I believe that that is where the answer to the current trouble will come too.

Posted by: jaimehuelva at October 25, 2006 9:16 AM

The Spanish left is godless, bumbling and multicultural, but the right is without high ideals in Spain. It has little vision beyong keeping petty privileges.
I believe that there is much idealization of Al Andalus and little opposition to Islam, except for some measure of racism against North Africans that was apparent in El Egido's riots a few years ago.
Few people have the lucidity of opposing Islam in Spain because they are trapped by multiculturalism and political correctness.

Posted by: rocky at October 25, 2006 9:59 AM

I must say it was me the first to mention that the publishing house is a Catholic one in this website. I did so the other day, when you first publish the news that the Islamic book was published in Spain with public funds.

Rocky,
I believe you speak only for yourself and your words denote a lot of resentment.
You claim to be a Catalonian, and that is a political statement from you. But what you explain about life in Spain is partial and is not representative at all.

I personally find Jaimehuelva to be more balanced in his views, perhaps because - I assume- he is a foreigner and can look at things here from a less passionate perspective.

I certainly don't know what will be in the end the real response from Spanish society at large regarding Islam. What I sense by talking to common people is that, in general, people don't like/don't trust Islam, and this especially applies to Moroccans, who are as much disliked in El Ejido as they are in Vilassar de Mar, believe me. Barcelona has now fallen to the PC dictatorship, I know, but sooner or later this is going to pay.

People now is not, perhaps, very religious from the doctrine point of view, but the overwhelming majority of people in Spain at large -I concede less so in your place, as you have substituted Catalonian nationalism as a religion from a sociollogical point of view for Roman Catholicism- remain Catholic (or anti-Catholic), from a cultural point of view.

From a political point of view we have the leading people in the Socialist party, who are appeasers and pro-Muslim. But we have some guys like Enrique Múgica, Antonio Elorza, Hermann Tertsch or others, who are not (and definetely, their voters aren´t either).

As for the Conservatives, you have the very prominent Gustavo de Arístegui MP, who whas written extensively against Jihad. And there are many others.

At local level, you see immediate oposition from all quarters whenever Muslims try to build up a mosque at any place. The authorities sometimes side with the Muslims, sometimes not. But there is widespread opposition to stimulating Islam.

It was funny to listen the other day to one of the progressive radio stations (cadena
SER) organize a pool among listeners for their view on the issue of the publishing of the text book: more than 90% of listeners did oppose it!

My conclusion is that there is hope, given the right circumstances, this country can show a very vigorous opposition to the Jihad, and that there is very little appetite for dhimmitude.

Posted by: Spanish diplomat at October 25, 2006 5:52 PM

Spanish diplomat,

I am not speaking of myself but from experiences I have had with Spaniards and Arabs in Spain. Did I say I was a catalonian? Did I say that was my religion?
You assume too much about me.
I am a Christian missionary living away from Spain.
But when I come back home every time, I feel the godlessness, the emopty churches (I am talking about cities, perhaps jaimehuelva's experiences in rural churches are different).

I have worked in Spain for the past 17 years with Christian Arabs and ex-Muslims who are doing missionary work among the Muslim populations all over Spain.
I have knowledge from the inside. Many Arab Christians are more discriminated against because of their ethnicity than because of Islam.
Spanish people generally tend more to respect Islam as obne of the "great religions" than to respect the people they perceive as North Africans.
You may disagree with me because it doesn't suit your personal (or party) political agenda, but I stand for my words that:

"The Catholic church and the Vatican sided openly with Franco and have always sided with corrupt Spanish central governments from colonial times."
And that this is the main root causes of the present godlessness in Spain.

For the Bible says that "no man can serve two masters." Christians have no business in government because Jesus said clearly that "My kingdom is not from this world.."
Hardly an image that Spanish christians got to see for centuries of Self-righteous Church-state close relationships in Spain.

"Unless the Lord builds the house its labourers labour in vain.."

Posted by: rocky at October 25, 2006 10:37 PM

Throughout Spain I have seen often racist graffiti: MOROS NO (NO MOORS)
But I have never ever seen a graffiti saying: ISLAM NO or NO AL ISLAM.
Spanish people (and their government) have a long way to go in order to be efefctive in the present fight against the modern Islamic invasion. Racism is not enough.
A spirit of lucidity and a clear mind are urgently needed in Spain.

Posted by: rocky at October 25, 2006 10:44 PM

For Spanish Diplomat I ought to explain that I am an Englishman living permanently (now) in a very rural part of South Western Andalucía. I have nothing but the greatest of respect for the indigenous people, language, culture of the country and also, I might add, its history. (As a former academic I can see both sides: the periods that interest me the most are its 15th and 1th century history.)

We have very very many Moroccan agrigultural workers hereabouts. And Roumanians and Poles too. I am pleased to report that - to the best of my knowledge - the nearest mosque is a good one and a half hours' drive away and there doesn't appear to be the slightest desire on the part of the local people to oblige with one closer to home! So it would seem to me that the separation of Mahommedanism and Christianity is quite evident and a spirit of ecumenicalism religious tolerance completely lacking. Where I live, anyway.

As for racism, I have to be careful here in distinguishing between biological factors - that determine one kind of "race" and religious/doctrinal and cultural factors that determine another. Our farmers and growers couldn't give a damn about the colour of the strawberry pickers' skin or what country they come from so long as the strawberries are picked. The employers are colour-blind.

Economically, the countryside would collapse without the new arrivals.

The bottom line (forgive the pun) is that foreign workers are only ever expected to be temporary guests and there is a very real expectation that, when the work has ended, they eventually go back.

Posted by: jaimehuelva at October 26, 2006 9:51 AM

Rocky, (or shall I say X----r R----o)
You define yourself as a Catalan ethnologist studying popular Islam. That´s why I assume que tu ets català, i no m´ho neguis, si us plau!.
I am not trying to defend any particular position based on ideology. I have my own experiences, and they and the understanding I take out of them lead me to formulate my thoughts, just like any one else.

I too have Christian Arab friends. They never reported to me being discriminated against. However, I don´t deny people can be discriminated in Spain. Of course. But just like in any other place around the globe.

What you say about "Moros no" is misleading. Moors (=Moros) is a word with different meanings. One applies to North Africans, of course. Another applies to Muslims in general, wherever they come from. The connection between "Moro" and Islam is pretty obvious to everyone here. It surprises me that you fail to appreciate that.

One pretty good example about this is in the Philippines. Local Muslims were called by the Spaniards "Moros". The name has actually become their own, since they themselves claim Moro as their community name, and when they talk about their community they say Bangsa Moro. They are not North AFricans, are they? Moro is actually "Muslim", and this is actually the most traditional way of naming them in Spain, as you can observe in the "Fiestas de Moros y Cristianos", for instance, or in all of our poetry, literature and history in general.

If you connect this to what Jaimehuelva says you immediately notice people (for the right or the wrong reasons) simply don´t like-don´t trust Muslims. And every opinion poll conducted in Spain keeps reflecting this reality, no matter what the elites might have to say.

As for church-attendance and Franco, well, this is simply nonsense. Church attendance is generally low in all or most European countries, and people tend to go less to the church for reasons with have nothing to do with whatever did the Catholic Church in Spain during the Civil War (by the way, it is no surprise the Church supported Franco, given how many Catholics, both clergy and laymen and women were slaughtered by the so-called Republicans before and during the war: survival, my friend!). If we didn´t have Franco at all, I don´t think you would find either flocks attending to the church. So, please, don´t be so narrow-focused. No one cares for Franco in Spain safe for Zapatero and all the revanchists. Franco was gone 30 years ago!

Finally, I insist. All I say doesn´t mean I am sure the public attitude towards Islam is the right one. I only say that, fortunately, we have enough elements left in our society that, given the right circumstances, could help to create a vibrant, strong challenger to the supporters of Islam´s supremacy.

Let´s hope Spain comes back in this field to its senses and reclaims its right position in the fight against Jihad.

Jaimehuelva,

welcome to Spain. I hope you enjoy life here and feel well accepted and at home.

Britons were until very recently the largest foreign community in Spain. Now you have been debunked by... Moroccans (and Ecuadorians).

I personally believe it is good so many people come to live in one´s own place, as human interaction breaks barriers and, conveniently managed actually provides enlightment. The only people not to be welcomed are those who try to impose their narrow ideas, like Jihadists.

Arabs, therefore, are OK with me as people. They are not OK if they are practicing Muslims.

Posted by: Spanish diplomat at October 26, 2006 12:17 PM

It is a very human attitude to think that one is all right and then never learn the lessons from the past.
Whatever Spanish diplomat (hiding behind that fatuous name to give himself importance and dismiss others with expressions such as "simply nonsense" or "misleading"?) may say, Spain is now a post-Christian country.
The Catholic Church has passed from the highest relevance two or three generations ago, to the present status of negligible influence on society.
In order to counter an overwhelming threat, like the present Eurabian threat, new ideas and new attitudes are needed, besides a strong faith and a determination to value and protect what one considers most precious (one's family, one's nation..).
In present-day Spain the general attitude is one of cynicism and lack of faith.
I stand for all the words I say.
I have never seen a clear indication that in Spain the public has identified the enemy as an ideology that has refined and perfected its terror, Islam.
Therefore the absurdity of a Catholic publishing house that prints Islamic text books for Spanish public schools.
Spain has not understood the nature and danger of the threat.

"Spanish diplomat" may dismiss my experiences as
nonsense of misleading but I don't what is a person who is so ready to give carte blanche to islam (and still thinks that the Madrid bombings were committed by the Basques) doing in this forum.

Posted by: rocky at October 26, 2006 11:26 PM

I'm sorry, the last paragraph should read:

"Spanish diplomat" may dismiss my experiences as
nonsense or misleading but I don't know what is a person who is so ready to give carte blanche to islam (and still thinks that the Madrid bombings were committed by the Basques) doing in this forum.

Posted by: rocky at October 26, 2006 11:27 PM