Here's a link to a report on the slave trade from Darfur to the Ottoman empire in the 19th century.

http://ziontruth.blogspot.com/2006/03/slaves-from-darfur-around-1850-nothing.html

It's funny that so many of the staunch human rights advocates are totally unconcerned with slavery in Darfur or southern Sudan, or the north thereof, etc.

Posted by: Eliyahu at October 23, 2006 11:11 AM

Ethiopia is about 65% Christian and 35% Muslim and can be considered a mostly Christian country. Your article does not clarify that the Ethiopia of Prester John is really the old Christian Abysinnian Kingdom of of Northern Ethiopia. In the 19th centuray, the Christian Abysinnians conquered the independant Muslim kingdoms of Eastern and Northern Ethiopia (Afar, Harar, the Ogaden and Jimma) to create the modern Ethiopian state of today with its large Muslim miniority.

So Ethiopia is not partly Muslim due to Islamic aggression and Dawa, but due to the Christian agression of the kingdom of Prestor John and the subsequent incorporation of the Muslim people into the chrisitian empire.

A significant majority of the Ethiopia's muslims are not interested in conquering or islamizing Ethiopia. Actually they want out. They want to secede from Prester John Ethiopia and create their own independent states of Oromia and the Ogaden.

Posted by: Rukia at October 23, 2006 11:29 AM

Minor correction on my comment above-the christian Abysinnians conquered the Muslim kingdoms of Eastern and Southern (not Northern) Ethiopia.

Thanks

Posted by: Rukia at October 23, 2006 11:32 AM

I fear that the ghost of Haile Selassie at the League of Nations will return soon enough to the UN. If people thought Ethiopia had it bad with Mussolini's attack wait until the Islamaniacs get hold of the place. No one cares now but once we hear tales of brutality people will ask how it could have happened.

Posted by: ISLAMSFORLOSERS at October 23, 2006 12:15 PM

"due to the Christian agression of the kingdom of Prestor John..."
-- from a posting by an indignant, presumably Muslim, poster above

The myth of Prester John lives.

Posted by: Hugh at October 23, 2006 1:49 PM

"The myth of prestor John lives on"

LOL. You got me there.

If you hear about a myth long enough, you start to believe it....

If I sound indignant it is because I love my country, and I don't like it when Westerners project their problems on a poor African country such as mine. We are the ones, Christian and Muslim, that will have to live the consequences of your misinformation.

An African saying: when two elephants fight, it is the grass that gets trampled.

The elephants are the West and the Arabs.

Posted by: Rukia at October 23, 2006 4:48 PM

"If I sound indignant it is because I love my country, and I don't like it when Westerners project their problems on a poor African country such as mine. We are the ones, Christian and Muslim, that will have to live the consequences of your misinformation."
-- from a poster above

When you write that "Westerners project their problems on a poor African country" one suspects you do not have in mind the attempt by Westernes to save lives of non-Muslims in southern Sudan and non-Arab Muslims in Darfur. Nor, I suppose, would you have in mind any future attempts to aid the Christians of Nigeria should they, again, attempt to fight for their independence against Muslims -- Muslims aided, in the Biafra War, by Egyptian pilots strafing Christian Ibo villages. No, what you mean is that when Westerners might actually come in to protect Christians from Jihad, conducted by Arabs, that this is what you object to. And even though any Muslim victory would threaten directly non-Muslims everywhere, you seem to think that we in the outside, Infidel world are not permitted to support local Christians who are threatened either militarily (as in the southern Sudan and in southern Nigeria), or through threats (Egypt's threats, for example, against Ethiopian plans to divert the headwaters of the Nile for irrigation projects), or through busy campaigns of Da'wa supported by Wahhabi missionaries and money-men (as in Niger and elsewhere in formerly syncretistic West Africa). Arab slavers devastated much of black Africa. The Arab Muslim slave trade began long before, and continued long after, the Atlantic Slave Trade of the Europeans. It claimed far more victims, especialy because the Arabs castrated young black males in the bush, and then marched them, after that cruel surgery, by slave coffle and then, sometimes by dhow, all the way to the slave markets of Jiddah, Baghdad, Damascus, Cairo, Algiers, all the way up to Constantinople and even Smyrna (under the Ottomans). Only 10% of those so captured and castrated survived the journey -- a fantastic mortality rate.

The Arabs have done notning for black Africa. They have used black Africans as slaves. They have imposed Islam, and then treated black African Muslims with contempt or hatred, and enslaved them anew, or as in Darfur, cruelly killed them.

Why should not the outside world, the more powerful non-Muslims in the West, do what they can to support co-religionists in black Africa, to help them resist the campagins of Da'wa, and the demographic conquest which is so clearly underway, not least in Ethiopia? To ]describe such support -- as, say, the support for the Christians and animists of southern Sudan which was a long time in coming, after 1.8 million people had been killed or starved to death -- as merely "projecting your own problems" onto Africa, is ludicrous, and meretricious.

Posted by: Hugh at October 23, 2006 6:30 PM

"In this, hope was needed, and hope arose in the form of a myth: the myth of a powerful Christian kingdom, ruled by a benign and powerful Christian king, Prester John. And where was this powerful Kingdom of Prester John? It was far away, on the other side of the lands seized by and now ruled by Muslims. It was a distant, yet powerful dream-ally, comforting to the imagination of fearful Christians. At first their imagination placed the Kingdom of Prester John in distant India. Later, in an act of geopolitical remue-menages (and remue-meninges, to quote the only memorable pun Jack Lang ever made) -- the Allied-Van-Lines of the European imagination transferred the Kingdom of Prester John, in its imaginary location, to Ethiopia. Fear-inducing Islam prompted the necessary comforting myth. The European mind did the necessary lifting, moving the whole kingdom several thousand miles from India to East Africa. Quite a feat."

Yesterday I bought a book called "The first global village". I haven't read it yet but I know what it is all about.

Concerning Ethiopia and the kingdom of "Prester John" (Prestes João), only one European country did the exploring (google Pêro da Covilhã and Afonso de Paiva) that allowed the "lifting" that Hugh mentioned. In the end, the kingdom of Ethiopia was a lot weaker that Portugal had hoped for, and instead of being a useful ally against the Moors and the Turks, the Ethiopians had to be bailed out several times by Portuguese armies and technology from hordes of invading Muslim armies. Less of an asset and more of a burden for more than a century...

During that century the Venetians aided the Ottoman Turks by building a fleet in the Indian Ocean, and the Sea Hawks raided the Spanish coast while most of the Spanish Armada was fighting in Lepanto.

If we don't hang together we shall hang separately. This was true 230 years ago and it explains why we might lose this fight. Same story, diferent players.

Posted by: cruzado at October 23, 2006 6:33 PM

"one European country did the exploring (google Pêro da Covilhã and Afonso de Paiva) that allowed the 'lifting'..."
-- from a posting above

Yes, the Portuguese did a lot of heavy lifting in those days, not least in seizing control of the sea trade with the East formerly completely dominated by Muslims. See Camoes and the Lusiadas for that epic celebration.

Posted by: Hugh at October 23, 2006 6:55 PM

"Yes, the Portuguese did a lot of heavy lifting in those days, not least in seizing control of the sea trade with the East formerly completely dominated by Muslims."

Who remembers the "Pepper Wars"?

Posted by: remote_control at October 23, 2006 8:15 PM

Whether the Pepper or whether the Spice Wars
They turned into the "And-Everything-Nice" Wars.

Posted by: Hugh at October 23, 2006 9:17 PM

Its funny how Ethiopia has always been known to be a christian country and all the immigrants I have met have been christian yet sites like the CIA worldfactbook and others always state Islam as the majority. Its as if our governments wants it to be that way. The war with eritrea has been portrayed as a regional conflict with no religious reasons. As both countries are portrayed as 50/50 Islamic christian. Yet a friend of mine from Ethiopia told me Eritrea was part of the arab league and countries like saudi arabia and Iraq before the ousting of saddam funded the eritreans.

Posted by: pissedoffcanadian at October 23, 2006 9:50 PM

Hugh/

I agree with you but (how often must you have heard that dreaded word 'but') it is one hell of a choice that you are asking gay people to make -videlicet support the Christians of Africa over the moslems of Africa so that the African Christians can kill you rather than the African moslems.

Not much of a choice from my point of view excepting, and it's an important exception, that Christian societies (and post-Christian, too) are the very societies from whom we have managed to wrest our freedoms (eventually) whereas moslem societies show no tolerance and no signs of change. Still, for many gay people it will remain a difficult choice to reason through and therefore they will shy away from making any choice at all.

Dominic.

Posted by: necessitasnonhabetlegem at October 23, 2006 10:05 PM

When you write that "Westerners project their problems on a poor African country" one suspects you do not have in mind the attempt by Westerners to save lives of non-Muslims in southern Sudan and non-Arab Muslims in Darfur.

-Response by Hugh

No Hugh, that is not what I meant actually because you would notice that I said two elephants fighting will trample us. One elephant is the West, the other are the Arabs. I meant that I wish that BOTH Arabs and Westerners will leave us Africans alone, but you deliberately chose to misunderstand me so you can write more misinformation.

Only a privileged person like you living in the Ivory Tower that is the West can write the response that you did. You see us Africans understand you for who you people really are and what you want from us. We know, Hugh, that you really don’t care for us even if you accuse the Arabs of all kinds of crimes. We are not stupid, and you do not need to tell us that the Arabs are racists and slave traders. But do not try to fool us that you are better. We know our history, and we know that it is the Westerners that have hurt Africa the most with your slave trade, your colonialism and now your brutal capitalism.

For your information, the Nigerian war was never about religion. As for the conflict in Sudan between the “Arab” north and the “African” South, it is the irresponsible British that combined the two regions to form the modern Sudanese state, and by doing so set the region for future tribal and religious warfare. If the West really cared about South Sudan, they would ensure that the South secede and form their own state. But the West does not care and so the agony of South Sudan will continue.

Your diatribe about the Arab slave trade conveniently leaves out the fact that African slaves were being shipped to the middle east and the roman world prior to the creation of Islam, and that African slaves were first castrated by the Greek Orthodox, Roman Catholic and Egyptian Coptic Christians prior to and during the Arab slave trade. You also forgot to mention the role Jews played in both the Arab and Atlantic slave trade as middlemen and bankers.

What do you mean by the threat of Dawa. Dawa is Islamic missionary work just like Christian missionary work. Both are targeting their respective communities in Africa so where is the threat? Muslim Africans are not going to convert to Christianity, and Christian Africans are not going to convert to Islam. Both are pretty established in Africa and nothing can change that.

What demographic conquest are you talking about? You really live in an ivory tower. Do you know that Africans are dying in the hundreds of thousands due to AIDs and you are worried about an Arab demographic threat?! Who is behind the AIDs genocide in Africa? Isn’t it the most westernized countries in Africa-Southern Africa that have the highest AIDs rate in the world and a shrinking population? Where are the drugs we need to survive and who is keeping them out of our hands?

Also, the most important point you do not bring up for the survival of Africa is the question of fair trade. I wonder why that is not important to you and only religious conflict is? You want to play crusader by remote control while maintaining your rich lifestyle for you and your kids.

BTW, Africans are marching, and they are heading to Europe and America….

Posted by: Rukia at October 23, 2006 10:19 PM

Dominic -

Please help me understand what you're saying regarding Christians and homosexuality because you raise this issue quite a bit on JW. You want to see "change" and "more tolerance" towards gays? In summary, what do you mean?

Posted by: champ at October 23, 2006 10:50 PM

Rukia wrote:

BTW, Africans are marching, and they are heading to Europe and America….
............

Great--yet another group bellicosly threatening to come to the West rather than trying to develop livable countries of their own. I'm sure these populations will be a valuable addition to Europe and the US--or not.

Posted by: gravenimage at October 23, 2006 11:13 PM

Rukia/

So, Rukia, explain to as all once again, if you would be so kind, why it is that the average wage in all the former British Crown Colonies of Africa is now lower, in real terms as well as in actual terms, than it was in the last year that any given African country was a British Colony.

I would also be interested, very interested indeed, to read your explanation as to why a much higher percentage of women (0.043% as against todays figure of 4.72% - both figures are averages) die in childbirth or from birthing complications today as opposed to in the last year of British rule in any of the former British African colonies. You may also care to explain, whilst your at it, why there are far fewer miles of functioning railway tracks, paved roads, water mains and sewers in the former British African colonies today than in the final year of British rule in each of those countries.

Perhaps you would care to tell us, also, why there are fewer doctors per head of population, fewer pharmacists per head of population, fewer engineers, research scientists, technologists, agronomists, archaeologists - indeed, fewer of all sorts of professional people on whom an advanced civilisation depends - than in the final year of British rule. You may also choose to elucidate for us why unemployment has risen, and continues to rise beyond, unaceptable levels in all the former British Crown colonies of Africa compared to the figures for the final year of British rule.

Perhaps, in your infinite and magisterial wisdom, you could also shed some light upon the lack of democratic arrangements for government in most of the former British Crown colonies of Africa - despite the fact that we left democratically elected governments in place when we withdrew. You may also, if you wish, choose to explain why, despite billions and billions of pounds sterling in aid, the only people who seem to have improved their lot in life in the former British Crown colonies in Africa are the select few who have seized power and organised Swiss bank accounts for themselves.

Perhaps, also, you might choose to expatiate on the subject of malaria. The west, Britain in particular, indulged in the financing of a terribly, ruinously, expensive eradication campaign which worked and which subsequently only required the bare minimum of expenditure by the governments of the former British Crown colonies in Africa to maintain. Neither the money, nor the maintenance, ever materialised.

You might care to explain, if you are able, why today a much smaller percentage of the population of the former British Crown colonies in Africa can actually read and write than in the final year of British rule. You may choose, if you wish and if you can, to tell us, from your infallible and God-like position, why it is that the murder rate in all the former British Crown colonies in Africa has increased by an average of over 3,000%, yes, let me spell that out, three-thousand-per-cent, compared to the figure for the final year of British rule.

Finally, you may choose to tell us why, fifty and more years after the colonial powers left, Africans cannot and will not take responsibility for the mess which they, and they alone, have created.

We have poured so much time, money and effort into Africa and all we get is 'give us more, give us more, give us more...' on, and on, and on.

Grow up, for we are fed up.

Dominic.

Posted by: necessitasnonhabetlegem at October 23, 2006 11:21 PM

AIDS? How, in what way, is the Western world responsible for AIDS? One might have thought that the reasons for the spread of the disease in sub-Saharan Africa, and certainly the failure in some places to treat it properly, would have been laid at doorsteps closer to home.

But this, and more, is all part of a Tu-Quoque smokescreen merely designed to avoid dealing with the history of Arab slavers and later imperialism -- an imperialism that has been the most successful in history, for its vehicle is Islam, and the Believers are taught to turn toward Arabia five times a day, to take on Arab names and assume false Arab lineages, to read and even memorize a text (the Qur'an) in Arabic, a language that 80% of the world's Muslims do not understand, and certainly few if any people in sub-Saharan Africa do. So we are supposed to forget the Jihad (Col. Ojukwu's word) against the Christians of Nigeria, and forget the slave trade by Arabs that continues to this day (in Mauritania, in Sudan, even deep within Arabia), with black Africans as not its only but certainly its chief victims. We are supposed to forget the massacres in the Sudan (backed to the hilt by the Arab League, which in Darfur as in southern Sudan, will not allow effective outside intervention).

Go ahead and try to get the rest of black Africa to ignore all this. It may have worked for a while, for the collaborators with Islam, the Arab National Religion and the vehicle for Arab imperialism. But it will not work for much longer.

Posted by: Hugh at October 23, 2006 11:37 PM

As for that "privileged position" in some mythical "Ivory Tower" you place me -- would that it were true. Would that I had a "privileged position" and so the uninterrupted leisure I crave, and need. But I am not a member of the ruling waBenzi. I suspect you, however, in whatever African country you come from, certainly are. And I can certainly speculate as tro the sources of your own well-being, sources undoubtedly not shared by most of your countrymen, and which I further suspect has much to do with some sort of privileged position you managed to obtain, somehow, whether in that country of origin or outside, in the prosperous nations of the West.

Finally, there is your absurd remark that "[f]or your information, the Nigerian war was never about religion."

Really? The Biafrans never thought that. See the Ahiara Declaration of 1969, issued by Col. Ojukwu, the leader of Biafra. See what he says about the "Jihad" (his word) being conducted against his people. See the Biafran websites, or the books by Frederick Forsyth and Renata Adler, on the Biafra War, and find out just what those Egyptian pilots did, and what aid was given the northern Muslims by the Arabs, and how nothing whatsoever was done by the West -- so intent on currying favor with oil-producing Nigeria, and so determined not to break up Nigeria becuase it fell for the argument that "the largest black African country" should remain intact, even if this meant keeping the southern Christians (largely, but not exclusively, Ibo) in permanent thrall to the Muslim army officers of the north.

What nonsense.

Posted by: Hugh at October 23, 2006 11:43 PM

champ/

Many other gay people post here but I feel that one of us - me, in this case - has to point out that there are gay people here - that the people who support Mr. Spencer and JW/DW, and all the people behind him and it, are a mixed bunch, a cross section, if you will, of society and that this will inevitably include gay people.

When people post anti-gay statements here, or forget that there may be a gay perspective to something Robert has put up for consideration, when I feel that gay people are being marginalised of denigrated here, I simply feel compelled to make an appropriate comment.

I happen to be gay, I happen to be a Christian, I happen to support JW/DW. I'm not the only member of a threatened minority group to post here - nor am I the only member of a minority group that some other Christians might want to harm or destroy. I just happen to fight the gay corner because I'm gay.

I just want to remind everybody that we are all in this together - that if islam gets the upper hand in the west then gay people will suffer as much, if not more so, than others will. I also remind people that historically we gay people cannot expect the support of Christians. Christians in the west have generally been our enemy and most, but not all - thank God, Christians in Africa are certainly the enemies of gay people today.

However, in the west today Christians are generally, but not always - as I know to my cost, more tolerant of difference than in the past. So my presence as an out gay commentator on JW/DW is mostly aimed at overly PC gays who seem to make common cause with the kitman, the lies, the deceptions, of islam instead of using their brains and reading this site.

So, my purpose in threefold - one, to challenge people who abuse gays on this site and, two, to challenge gays who abuse this site and think that islam is OK, or 'just another religion', or 'a religion of peace', or 'anything is better than Christianity' and, three, to support this site and Robert and all the others at JW/DW (the order has no significance).

But if you were to ask me if I would rather live in a Christian 21st century society or a moslem 21st century society then I know what my answer would be, every time. At least most Christians will listen before shooting and only a very small number of Christians are dogmatic enough to harm another human being because they disagree with him or her whilst a large number of moslems would harm someone they disagreed with.

But still, many gay people in the west have a deeply engrained fear of Christians and Christianity which, just now, outweighs their fear of and, for that matter, their knowledge about, islam. I wish I could show them how wrong they are.

Perhaps what is happening in Aethiopia will convince some of them that islam is not to be trusted but, given Rukia's comments, neither, it seems, are the Aethiopes.

Dominic.

Posted by: necessitasnonhabetlegem at October 24, 2006 12:12 AM

Dominic -

Thanks for writing back. You did answer my question, and I agree that Christians can be pretty ugly when it comes to the topic of homosexuality. Hatred never produces unity, but love should always be the goal, no matter who we are.

Jesus said something very powerful about specific sins in 1 Corinthians 6:9-11:

New American Bible....

"Do you not know that the unjust will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolators, nor adulterors, nor boy prostitutes, nor sodomites, nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor slanderers, nor robbers will inherit the kingdom of God. That is what some of yuo used to be; but now you have had yourselves washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God."

Dominic, I'm not judging you, I'm simply trying to show you the truth of what Jesus says about the gay lifestyle -- of what His standard is for living. And please pay attention to His warning! He says, "Do not be deceived".

Do you think that being a liar is ok? Should liars be supported and tolerated? Do you think that adultery is ok, and should they have rights too? I'm using that standard because JESUS used that standard.

Who in their right mind would say that adultery should be ok, but why not. According to those who are gay and call themselves Christians, then it stand to reason that adultery should be tolerated too.

I'm not trying to beat you up, only to get you to think. Think about what Jesus said, and to think about why adultery shouldn't be accepted too.

(there may be many typing errors as I'm tired and my eyes are blurring -- ahhhh)

Posted by: champ at October 24, 2006 12:59 AM

Dominic -

All Christians struggle with the sins Jesus mentions in 1 Corinthians, but I get the impression that you don't consider homosexuality a sin. Is that true?

Posted by: champ at October 24, 2006 1:12 AM

Perhaps Rukia needs to listen to some fellow black Africans, like Calixthe Belaya. She says:

"...we are often told that Africa had been destroyed by the Western slave trade and Western colonialism. The truth is that black Africans had already been brought to its knees by the Arabs between the 7th and 16th centuries! Africa had been, so to speak, "finished" by the West, but the slave trade which destroyed her for six centuries was first and foremost the Arab slave trade, which has never been denounced with sufficient force. Alas, the Arab slave-trade and Arab coloniaism are [still] pursued in certain states like Sudan, Saudia Arabia, and Mauritania. The Westerners arrived long after the Arabs. Furthermore, the Trans-Atlantic slave trade was much different than the Arab slave trade, which involved a veritable destruction. The Arabs occupied North Africa and literally forced the blacks constantly toward the South. The slaughters and invasions by the Arabs were extremely destructive. The Arab slavery signalled the beginning of the doom of black culture and civilization. Had the Westerners found a solid Africa, there might well not have been a later slave trade.

"The Arab slave trade has been passed over in silence, but it's necessary now to set the historical record straight, not to judge or avenge, but just to reestablish the historical truth. It continues still today in Mauritania -- in recent days a thousand black stewards were murdered -- and in Sudan. In Arab lands, blacks suffer from a terrible racism and the question of black racism is taboo. In the past as in the present, there is a politics of "ethnic purification" of blacks by the Arabs."

http://www.alexandredelvalle.com/publications.php?id_art=250

Posted by: remote_control at October 24, 2006 4:06 AM

FROM THE INTERVIEW with Calixta Belaya:
{the joint interviewers are Alexandre del Valle or ADV and David Reinhard or DR

ADV / DR : On sent une tentation antisémite depuis ce qu’il est convenu d’appeler l’ »affaire Dieudonné ». D’où vient, selon vous, ce rêve secret de voir l’affinité élective entre Juifs et Noirs s’inverser ?
CB : Je pense que cela vient d’une méconnaissance de l’Histoire, et de la souffrance des Noirs en France qui ont été, pour certains, manipulés par des groupes n’ayant aucun rapport avec le monde noir.
Cela n’a pas de racines dans notre Histoire, pas d’idéologues non plus, et donc pas de construction intellectuelle autorisant cette inversion. Les référents du monde noir francophone sont des gens comme Aimé Césaire, Senghor ou moi-même qui n’ont jamais tenu des propos antisémites.
Entre Juifs et Noirs, il y a une alliance naturelle. Dans ses diatribes contre l’esclavage et le colonialisme, Aimé Césaire rappelle que les Juifs sont des alliés.

ADV / DR : L’idéologie antisémite et antisioniste gagne, malgré tout, le monde négro-africain. Afin d’opposer un vrai message de résistance, ne suffit-il pas de puiser dans les ressources spirituelles profondes propres à la culture négro-africaine et rappeler l’analogie établie entre le statut des Noirs et celui des Juifs chez Senghor, Baldwin, Martin Luther King ou Nelson Mandela ?
CB : Tout à fait. Mais dans la désespérance, les peuples sont prêts à accepter des faux prophètes. En l’espace de trois ans, il y a eu quelques noirs prêts à suivre ces faux prophètes pour pouvoir expliquer leur mal-être. Aujourd’hui, je peux parler de cette époque au passé. La tendance, aujourd’hui, dans l’univers noir de France, est inverse.

ADV / DR : Les Juifs stigmatisés comme étant d’anciens « négriers reconvertis dans la finance »….
CB : C’est ridicule. De surcroît, on nous dit souvent que l’Afrique a été détruite par la Traite occidentale et la colonisation. La vérité est que les Noirs Africains avaient déjà été mis à genoux par les Arabes entre le VIIe et le XVIe siècle ! L’Afrique a été, si l’on veut, « achevée » par l’Occident, car la traite qui l’a détruite durant six siècles fut d’abord et surtout la traite arabe, laquelle n’a jamais été dénoncée avec force. La traite et la colonisation arabes se poursuivent hélas dans certains Etats comme le Soudan, l’Arabie Saoudite et la Mauritanie. Les Occidentaux sont arrivés bien après les Arabes. La traite transatlantique fut d’ailleurs bien différente de la traite arabe, qui a consisté en une véritable destruction. Les Arabes occupèrent l’Afrique du Nord et littéralement poussèrent les Noirs toujours plus vers le Sud.

ADV / DR : Dans la loi du 10 mai 2001, qui reconnaît la traite esclavagiste comme crime contre l’humanité, faut-il selon vous, mentionner en plus de la traite atlantique, la traite arabe ?
CB : Oui. Toutes les formes de traites doivent être dénoncées. Les tueries et invasions arabes furent extrêmement destructrices. L’esclavage arabe a annoncé le début de la chute réelle de la culture et de la civilisation noire. Si les Occidentaux avaient trouvé une Afrique solide, il n’y aurait pas eu nécessairement la traite négrière. On a passé sous silence la traite arabe mais il faut, à un moment donné, revenir sur l’Histoire non pas pour juger et se venger, mais juste pour rétablir la vérité historique. Cela continue encore aujourd’hui en Mauritanie - on a tué ces derniers jours 1000 officiers noirs-, au Soudan. Dans les pays arabes, les Noirs souffrent d’un racisme foudroyant et la question noire est taboue. Dans le passé comme au présent, il y a une politique de « purification ethnique » des Noirs par les Arabes."

Posted by: Hugh at October 24, 2006 8:27 AM

Champ/

Who wrote the letter to the Corinthians? Somehow I don't think it was God. Just a man, that's all. So his version of what should and shouldn't be can be challenged in the light of what I and others feel in our hearts and know to be true.

Further, Christianity has always informed itself and changed in the light of new ideas that disprove old assertions whilst standing by the core message of love and forgivness as preached by Christ. Anyway, the mainstream churches have always professed that the truth lies in the Church, not in the Bible which is just a fallible diary whereas the Church is guided by the Holy Spirit.

Enough. This is not a general debate site. You asked me why I posted here. I gave you an answer - because we are all under attack together and strange times call for strange allies. If you want a debate about gay issues email me or find a debating site about that subject.

Dominic.

Posted by: necessitasnonhabetlegem at October 24, 2006 9:52 AM

Champ/

And no, I wouldn't consider any sexual behaviour per se 'sin' without knowing the motives of the parties concerned in such behaviour. Impurity of motive may make something a sin in certain circumstances, perhaps, but such judgements, like all good Christians, I leave to God for this particular knot is too tangled.

It's all just sex, anyway. It's the motive that's important. Whether anything at all including sex, is done out of love, or not.

Dominic.

Posted by: necessitasnonhabetlegem at October 24, 2006 10:00 AM

The 19th century English writer George Borrow was fascinated by the legend of Prester John. He wrote that Prester John's daughter was married to the conqueror Tamerlaine, the ruler of half the known world and the son of a blacksmith. Presumably this was from legends siting Prester John's kingdom as being in India or somewhere near it. I cannot help feeling that when Britain and perhaps all Europe is under the tyrannical, conflict-ridden rule of Muslims we will kid ourselves that there is another Prester John and his happy kingdom somewhere over the rainbow...and those who remember the 'old days' will probably dream of escaping to live there.

Posted by: moris2 at October 24, 2006 11:02 AM

,…..on the Biafra War, and find out just what those Egyptian pilots did, and what aid was given the northern Muslims by the Arabs, and how nothing whatsoever was done by the West -- so intent on currying favor with oil-producing Nigeria”

-Above by Hugh

Well, well, well, so you admit to what I was saying all along - that Arabs and Westerners cooperate with each other (for their own reasons) when it comes to exploiting the resources of Africa-in this case oil. Had Arabs and Westerners cared about Africans, they would have supported the right of self-determination of the Ibo people and we would not have the horribly dysfunctional state that is Nigeria today. Who by the way is exploiting the oil in the delta region at the expense of the delta people? Is it not the corrupt hausa-ibo-yourba elite of the corrupt Nigerian govt. enabled by Western oil companies? If you want to insist that the Biafra war was about religion despite the fact that the war was between Ibos versus an alliance of Hausas and Yorubas –go ahead. It fits your agenda to add religious divisions to our problems as if we do not have enough problems already with tribal divisions and poverty. All I can say to you is that you should be ashamed of yourself.

As for my resources-yes actually I am your worst nightmare-an educated middle class African with a Christian AND Muslim background. If I do not fit you image of Africans-poor, uneducated and tribal -well tough for you. And as I said earlier, there are many of us coming to your shores to partake in the wealth you have hoarded for yourself even while you westerners encourage endless conflicts in Africa. By the way, again Westerners and Arabs are cooperating against Africans even in immigration. Europeans are paying and training Arabs to keep poor African immigrants from reaching Europe!

Again, who is behind the AIDS genocide in Africa? Why is the epicenter of the AIDS academic in Southern Africa-the countries that were victimized by Apartheid? Why are you Westerners working night and day to keep anti-AIDS drugs unreachable to us while exploiting our resources? Like I said, your type want to play crusader by remote control in the safety of the West while at the same ensuring that ONLY your children will have a rich and safe future at the expense of non-westerners. Do not think we are stupid and we Africans are aware of your shocking hypocrisy.

The great African leader Mandela see right through you.

Posted by: Rukia at October 24, 2006 11:05 AM

But this, and more, is all part of a Tu-Quoque smokescreen merely designed to avoid dealing with the history of Arab slavers and later imperialism -

-Hugh

I missed your first response so if i may. The truth is that you are the one creating a smokescreen in order to divert our attention for your past and more importantly ongoing crimes in Africa by pointing to the Arabs. You might not like it and we do not care, but Africans can be Christian or Muslim or Hindu or Buddhist-whatever we want. Whatever our religion, or prayer style, or chosen name or holy city, we are black and African and we have cultures and practices that we share. So we can live with each other in our Africa celebrating our religions and most of all our African heritage.

As for AIDS, the crime of the century was perpetuated by the Apartheid system that broke our family values and created huge segregated unhealthy poor black cities in which the AIDS epidemic brewed. You do not care, and if you see my mentioning it as a smokescreen-well I am not surprised all.

Posted by: Rukia at October 24, 2006 11:34 AM

Dominic,

One of the problems that we Africans suffer from is that we live in dysfuntional states that were created wily-nily by European colonalists with out consideration for ethnic or religious considerations. In addition, the standard of living in Africa continues to fall because of unfair trade practices of the West that shut out African products or decrease their value as well as discourage the industrialization of independent Africa states.

Posted by: Rukia at October 24, 2006 11:45 AM

Dominic -

Ok, we don't have to talk about this issue, and we can agree to disagree on this issue and the validity of the Bible; but in return I have a request of you, and that's that you stop referencing your sexual orientation on JW; as it has NOTHING to do with the topics discussed on this forum.

Only a few posters have mentioned being gay on JW, and it's always out of context; but you mention it all the time. Do you think you're special because Muslims hate homosexuals? Well, you aren't special, and you aren't alone!

Should I mention the fact that I'm a woman on every thread and get people to feel sorry for me? Islam views women with total disrespect, so why shouldn't I whine and complain too.

Enough. Stop referencing your sexual orientation on JW, and if you want to discuss this further, then please contact me privately.

Posted by: champ at October 24, 2006 11:47 AM

Champ/

Of course you should make it plain that you are a woman. The enemy we face must be brought to realise that Mr. Spencer and all at JW/DW enjoy the support of a wide cross-section of society - male and female, young and old, professionals and ordinary working people, academics and the man (or woman) in the street, straight and gay, employed and unemployed, religious and non-religious, black and white, natives and immigrants, citizens and asylum seekers, political and apolitical, in short, all manner of people, not just some narrow elite drawn from a restricted area of society. They must realise that we ALL oppose the moslem view of the world and its attempts to undermine our society.

So no, I will not stop and I encourage you to reference being a woman when you deem it to be appropriate. For example, I didn't realise that you were a woman and therefore I would have viewed any post that you might have made about women's position in islam compared with the west with a small degree of suspicion. I will, however, in the light of your comments, review such referencing to see if I may be overdoing it a bit. The last thing one wants to do is annoy one's allies - I prefer to annoy the enemy. Nothing annoys the enemy more than being criticised by a woman or a gay person, by-the-way.

Dominic.

Posted by: necessitasnonhabetlegem at October 24, 2006 2:19 PM

Dominic -

Just because someone calls themselves a Christian, doesn't mean that they are. Jesus said, "Not everyone who calls me Lord, Lord will enter into the kingdom of God, but those who do the will of my Father who sent Me."

And the only way to know His will, is to read His word -- which you have dismissed. Feel free to brag about being gay on Jihad Watch, but maybe you could refrain from saying you're a Christian. Deal?

Posted by: champ at October 24, 2006 5:44 PM

As for my resources-yes actually I am your worst nightmare-an educated middle class African with a Christian AND Muslim background. If I do not fit you image of Africans-poor, uneducated and tribal -well tough for you. And as I said earlier, there are many of us coming to your shores to partake in the wealth you have hoarded for yourself even while you westerners encourage endless conflicts in Africa. By the way, again Westerners and Arabs are cooperating against Africans even in immigration. Europeans are paying and training Arabs to keep poor African immigrants from reaching Europe!

Rukia, this is a bit aggressive, don't you think?

We can go around in circles discussing what the evil westerners have done to poor Africa with all of her resources human and otherwise.

We can talk about the evils of apartheid, and how Nelson Mandela is wonderful.

Two words for you: Robert Mugabe.

And what about Uganda, with its AIDS problems?

Why is the West to blame for everything in Africa? Why do Africans feel no need to take responsibility for their own futures? SPeak to your corrupt leaders, using the goodwill and consciences of other countries to bleed your people dry.

An educated middle-class African of christian and muslim background is not my worst nightmare. Not by a long shot.

There are plenty of other things that cause me to wake in fright.

Perhaps you should read a bit further on this site and realise that we infidels are all in this war together whether you like it or not.

Do you think that sharia is good for Africa? Is it good for you, with your western ways and dealings with kaffirs on this site?

I don't comment here often, but I am a longtime reader, and I tire of your bleating. As someone from Ethiopia, you are in a good position to comment on the situation on the ground, but whining about how evil those from other continents are, equating the "West" with "Arabs" shows how insulated you choose to keep yourself.

If getting the white man out of Africa is the most important thing in your current life, perhaps this is not the best forum for you.

L.Drummond.

Posted by: L.Drummond at October 24, 2006 6:37 PM

Champ/

No deal. I am as much of a Christian as you are. We obviously come from two different traditions of the Faith. Neither are provably invalid and we should respect each other's traditions otherwise we are no better than the moslems. Christianity is not a monolith founded on some bits of paper - it is living breathing faith inspired by the Spirit of God which inspires the Church - classic Christian teaching in my tradition for almost two-thousand years. Your tradition may be different, may be younger, but you are allowed to hold to it and I must, and do, respect it even though I may disagree with it. Allow me mine in the Spirit and in Christ.

I have not dismissed His word. I merely hold to the ages old tradition held by countless Christians through the ages that the Bible is not the literal, dictated word of God but a collection of writings that Holy Mother Church believes might be inspired and that that inspiration has been filtered through the minds of ordinary men who may, or may not, have allowed their own prejudices and pre-judgements to colour that which they wrote. It is held, therefore, that it is only by a constant appeal to the Spirit and to Christ's core message of love, both embodied in the Church, that one can have a reasonable certainty of interpreting the Bible in accordance with God's will - but one can never know more than a minute fraction of God's will in any case.

Throughout the ages the Church has re-interpreted the Bible time after time in the light of scientific discoveries or social pressures. It is not a constant but the Church is.

Sorry to disapoint you - but no, after much prayer I know that I am a Christian and I will not refrain from calling myself one.

Dominic.

Posted by: necessitasnonhabetlegem at October 24, 2006 6:43 PM

Dominic -

We may not share the same overall beliefs, but I think I've found some common ground that we can both agree on -- and that's Jesus.

Sounds like Jesus holds a special place in your heart, as He does in mine, so may I leave you with this really cool website? It's a collection of the "Actual Words of Jesus".....

http://www.dornaslighthouse.com/words_Jesus.html

I love the Bible, but I especially love the words of Jesus because they are so pure, and they seem to pierce my soul.

Take care.

Posted by: champ at October 24, 2006 9:12 PM

champ/

That is a wonderful site. Thank-you for the link. I had not come across it before but isn't it well laid out - really useful and inspiring. I am full of admiration for people who put in so much hard work to organise such a site - it's not Cruden's Concordance or Peake's Commentary but isn't it useful.

Yep, you're right. We have a point of agreement. But look, we both have trespassed on JW/DW's hospitallity for too long - how about emailing me at my hotmail account and saying anything else that you might wish to say 'off site' as it were, and leaving the good folks here to get on with their primary task - fighting the anti-jihad.

I, too, love the Bible and find it to be an inspiring part of my life. I love my Church also and I love talking to other Christians such as you. Despite our small, or maybe large, differences, we all talk the same language of love as originally taught to us by Jesus Christ our Lord and Master. I've always found that it is just the details which differ.

Email me if you wish at

necessitassnonhabetlegem@hotmail.co.uk

and we can take it from there.

Yours in Christ,
Dominic.

Posted by: necessitasnonhabetlegem at October 24, 2006 10:30 PM

champ/

"...because they are so pure, and they seem to pierce my soul.

By the God we both believe in you have truly spoken truth there. If one's soul doesn't feel the words of the Christ, if one cannot feel the love and the forgiveness, then is one truly alive?

Dominic.

Posted by: necessitasnonhabetlegem at October 24, 2006 11:20 PM

Sorry to disapoint you - but no, after much prayer I know that I am a Christian and I will not refrain from calling myself one.

If one looks at the example of Christ and compares it to the Sunnah of Mohammed, you have a tremendously stark and damning comparison.

It's wierd though. Making such a comparison could save our civilization, especially by educating atheists and non-Moslem non-Christians.

But, in its intense desire to avoid religious quarrels, our culture forbids this. Therein lies the quandary.

Posted by: Alarmed Pig Farmer at October 24, 2006 11:43 PM

Alarmed Pig Farmer/

Sorry, you were a bit too cryptic for me there, I don't quite understand what you were driving at. Can you elucidate, please?

Dominic.

Posted by: necessitasnonhabetlegem at October 25, 2006 12:05 AM

Alarmed Pig Farmer/

Disavowing my Christianity, or not mentioning it, or not coupling it with what I know myself to be, struck me as being asked to make the Petrine mistake all over again only this time with knowledge and aforethought - and with absolutely no guarantee that the cock would crow after I'd done it three times - just that the cocks would crow (bad pun, but I couldn't resist it).

The Rock regretted it for the rest of his life. Learning from him I will not make the same mistake.

Dominic.

Posted by: necessitasnonhabetlegem at October 25, 2006 12:13 AM

Thank you, Dominic, for the invitation to privately discuss things further, but I think we already understand each other. Lets simply pray for one another concerning our walk with the Lord, that we would each grow to know Him deeper :-)

Take care,
Dru

Posted by: champ at October 25, 2006 11:47 AM

champ/

Amen to that, Dru. If I ever go too far please email me and say your piece. Please pray for me, as I will for you.

May all The Blessings of Our Lord Jesus and our Father in Heaven be upon you and yours.

Dominic.

Posted by: necessitasnonhabetlegem at October 25, 2006 9:23 PM

Thank you -- many blessings to you as well! Jesus be praised!

Posted by: champ at October 26, 2006 12:35 AM