Pope Benedict said Catholics should manifest their beliefs with the same conviction as Muslims, who "are attached with great seriousness to their convictions and their religious rites."

In that case, the Pope clearly has identified the solution correctly. If Catholics (and for that matter, other Christians, Jews, Buddhists, Hindus, et al) started a belligerent attitudes to any criticism of their faiths by Muslims, starting with the Quran, that would send those vermin into a tailspin whereby they'd not know what hit them.

Just imagine if all Infidels took the Muslim attitude while criticizing Muslims/Islam, and reacting to any criticism by Muslims/Islam - they'd be shown their rightful place.

Posted by: Infidel Pride at November 11, 2006 12:09 PM

Cyprus president meets Pope, denounces church desecration

Ummah News Links

Posted by: ummahnewslinks at November 11, 2006 12:35 PM

Infidel Pride

I agree with you of course if we Christians did that then liberal idiots out there would start screaming "see the Christians are just as bad" blah blah.

BUT I THINK WE SHOULD STILL DO IT!! And I for one and not going to pull any punches. My church (eastern orthodox) suffered in Greece under Islam for 400 years (if the muslim turks caught you with a bible they would hang you in front of church gates).

christians and other nonmuslims have to become a thorn in the governments side and really really be LOUD about it. Even right down to insisting on nativity scenes in govt offices because you know come to think of it it OFFENDS me as a Christian in a country where most people claim Christian affiliation that there is no nativity scene. If a muslim says "Im offended you believe Jesus is the Son of God" Ill start yelling at him: 'HEY IM OFFENDED YOU DONT BELIEVE THAT! YOU ARE A REAL BIGOT ! YOU OFFEND ME GREATLY IN MY OWN CRHISTIAN COUNTRY THAT YOU SAY SUCH EVIL THINGS ABOUT JESUS YOU EVIL RACIST BIGOT!!"

I bet if Christians started acting like that the muslims would start pissing in their pants. There are ALOT of traditional Protestants and Catholics in Canada. If they get stirred up the islamists and liberals will cry 'uncle'. I agree with you Infidel Pride.

Posted by: THE ALLIES SHALL WIN at November 11, 2006 12:59 PM

Ps we should all start being loud and offended that there are no Christian churches or Jewish temples allowed in Saudi Arabia and such 'countries'.

Most Christians in the west are too kindly towards islam. That has to stop. We have to become as loud and as angry as liberals CLAIM we are (if we were liberals would be fainting in the streets, there are alot of us).
"HEY IM OFFENDED YOU ARE ALLOWED TO BUILD A MOSQUE IN JERUSALEM WHERE JESUS WALKED AND I CANT BUILD A CHRUCH IN ARABIA WHERE MUHAMMED WALKED." Just start throwing them the same kind of flak they throw us.

I love that idea. Im going to call up a few very angry fundamentalist protestants I know and discuss this tomorrow with them.

Posted by: THE ALLIES SHALL WIN at November 11, 2006 1:05 PM

Dear hollynes, that urge is very goodwilling,appropriate and expectable from You, but since I am not a man of God, and not so spiritual, I must unfortunately, disagree with it. From my point of view, going to muslims (unarmed) for firm and HUMBLE dialogue, remids me on those girls saying: be carefull so that I can remain virgin.
BTW: Dont You think that You are not the first MAN who try that kinde of dialogue with islam? And where are they now? What happen with them? Or maybe,after so many urges, they end with some conclusion-something like that muslims founder did not bring nothing new, but things only evil and inhumane.

Posted by: svemirko at November 11, 2006 1:29 PM

Now how did the Pope think that would work out? Did he forget the Muslim uproar caused by his quotation recently?

Posted by: EliasAlucard at November 11, 2006 1:37 PM

Most Christians don't realize that the Quran is a poorly written book filled with numerous hate filled quotes that promote intolerance towards non-Muslims.

Instead of seeing the Quran as a divinely inspired book, Christians must have the courage and intellectual integrity to examine Islam from a critical point of view.

This critical scrutiny of the Quran isn't difficult to undertake.

There is a pleothra of passages in the Quran that demean Christians and Jews.

Christians and Jews must become more educated about the true nature of the Quran and Islam.

The world needs more Robert Spencers to point out the the very dark elements within the Quran.

Read just a few examples of intolerance in the Quran:

Christians are disbelievers for believing in the divinity of Christ. 5:17

Those who make war with Allah and his messenger will be killed or crucified, or have their hands and feet on alternate sides cut off, or will be expelled out of the land. That is how they will be treated in this world, and in the next they will have an awful doom. 5:33

Allah gave Muhammad the one true religion and sent him to conquer all other (false) religions. 61:9

Jews are the greediest of all humankind. They'd like to live 1000 years. But they are going to hell. 2:96

Allah is an enemy to the disbelievers. 2:98

Only evil people are disbelievers. 2:99

For disbelievers is a painful doom. 2:104

For unbelievers: ignominy in this world, an awful doom in the next. 2:114

Disbelievers are losers. 2:121

Allah will leave the disbelievers alone for a while, but then he will compel them to the doom of Fire. 2:126

Kill disbelievers wherever you find them. If they attack you, then kil them. Such is the reward of disbelievers. (But if they desist in their unbelief, then don't kill them.) 2:191-2

Fight them until "religion is for Allah." 2:193

War is ordained by Allah, and all Muslims must be willing to fight, whether they like it or not. 2:216

Those who die in their disbelief will burn forever in the Fire. 2:217

Don't believe anyone who is not a Muslim. 3:73

Those who ascribe a partner to Allah (like Christians do with Jesus and the Holy Spirit) will not be forgiven. They have "invented a tremendous sin." 4:48, 4:116

Jews and Christians believe in idols and false deities, yet they claim to be more rightly guided than Muslims. 4:51

"Those (Christians and Jews) are they whom Allah hath cursed." 4:52

Allah has cursed the Jews and hardened their hearts. Nearly all of them are treacherous. 5:12-13

Allah has stirred up enmity and hatred among Christians. 5:14

Those ascribe a partner to Allah (like the Christians) will be among the losers. 39:65

In whatsoever ye differ, the verdict therein belongeth to Allah."Disputes, whether religious or political, must be decided by Allah. Democracy is not an option. 42:10

Allah plots against non-Muslims. 86:16

Those who reject Allah's revelations will burn in hell. 83:10-17

Doom is about to fall on all disbelievers. Only worshippers (Muslims) and those who preserve their chastity (except with their wives and slave girls) will be spared from "the fires of hell" that are "eagar to roast." 70:1-30

If you refuse to fight for Allah, he will punish you with a painful doom. 48:16

Posted by: Johnathan at November 11, 2006 1:50 PM

The door to dialogue has always been left open to the Muslims, provided they are sincere. So far, they keep storming through it with insincerity in their hearts and swords in their hands. How much longer must the door be left open?

Posted by: ISLAMSFORLOSERS at November 11, 2006 2:08 PM

PEOPLE, THIS POPE KNOWS IT ALL!!!

Cyprus president meets Pope, denounces church desecration

Vatican City - Cyprus President Tassos Papadopoulos denounced the destruction of Christian Churches in the Turkish sector of the Mediterranean island during a meeting with Pope Benedict XVI at the Vatican on Friday.

According to reports, Papadopoulos gifted the pope with a book of photographs showing churches in the Turkish-occupied northern sector that had been destroyed or converted into hotels and bars.

Benedict was said to have been pained and moved by the book.

'So much destruction, it is incredible,' the Ansa news agency quoted the pope as saying.

There is NO WAY this pope is dhimmified.

Posted by: StillFedUp at November 11, 2006 2:21 PM

Being firm with the Muslims does not mean copying their behaviour. We are above that kind of thing. However, we can let them know that we consider such behaviour to be childish in the extreme.

Open dialogue with the Muslims will bring better results than screaming and carrying on. I think that the Australian Lebanese Muslim Association stand out when it comes to the way forward and to building bridges. The Australian experience is unique because the majority of the Muslims are not extremists. Yes, we do have extremists over here, but they are for the moment a minority. The leaders of the Lebanese Muslim Association were not happy with the meathead sheik and with good reason. They have made noises about the damage that was done and the need to repair community relations. Also, during the Cronulla riots it was the women, that is the mothers of the youths involved, who stepped in and were ready to give their sons a good clip over the ears for their bad behaviour. In other words, it was the women who stepped forward to try and stop the riots spreading.

We should continue to point out the damage that has been done at the hands of the Muslims in our countries. We should point out that Christians are not allowed to carry their own personal Bibles with visiting a Muslim country. We should protest when we hear of yet another Christian being charged with blasphemy. We should say a resounding NO to all attempts to introduce sharia law.

If there is such a thing as an intellectual Muslim then these people need to be challenged to a debate. They do not have the upper hand, except that they have been allowed to get away with their revision of the historical record, that in reality paints a very bleak picture of the damage that has been done as a result of Mohammed's band of thieves being allowed to grow exponentially.

Being loud in our opposition to Islam is not being humble. I think that this is where a number of people go wrong. The Islamics are very proud and they lack humility, but we do not have to copy this attitude. We need to follow more directly the example of Jesus Christ, who was indeed very critical of the Pharisees and the Sadducees of his day.

Posted by: Maggie4Life at November 11, 2006 2:46 PM

Hmmmmmm... Would it have worked if the Jews were to open up dialogue with Hitler? Nope. You're wasting your time, Ratzinger. You're a really cool dude though. Spend your time better in educating the Catholics instead, that will be where the real power comes from, knowledge. Because if you know your enemy, and what they are trying to do, you then know what you have to do to stop them.

I was reading up on the French National Party yesterday, and part of their election platform was to "humanely deport 3 million people". :D

Posted by: TheVoiceofTruth at November 11, 2006 3:54 PM

COMENT ON THIS ARE WELCOME AT N7GPD@TELUS.NET
AGENTS OF SATAN HAD GIVEN HIM THE JUICE OF THE POPPY'S TO SELL
TO PLANT A VISION OF HADES IN THE LAND OF THE GREAT SATAN IN ALLAHS NAME A LAND TO A ISLAMIC MIND TO BIN LAUDINS MIND WAS EVIL BECAUSE ISLAM WAS NOT SUPREAM
NUKE MUSHROOMS HE WANTED TO GROW TO MAKE INNOCENTS
GLOW IN THE DARK A JIHAD BIN LAUDIN HAD CALLED TO SPREAD
WHAT IS CALLED RADICAL ISLAM FUELED BY THE JUICE OF THE POPPIES
USED BY BY YOUTHS TO GET HIGH BUT IS POISONING THEIR BODY'S AND MINDS
4O SEEDS HE HAS OBTAINED TO TRY AND BRING THE HOUSE OF WAR
THE NON-ISLAMIC WORLD TO ITS BELY AND FORCE ALL INTO
DAR AL ISLAM TO GIVE UP OUR FREEDOMS AND ACEPT DHIMIHOOD
THE RIGHT TO LEAVE OUR FAITH , THE RIGHT TO LIVE AND CRITICIZE AS WE WISH
FOR MINORITY'S TO LIVE FREE OF FEAR ,TO BUILD THERE SYNAGOGS AND TEMPLES]
WITH OUT HAVING WORRY THAT SOME FOLLOWER OF A INMAN WILL TOSS A GAS FILLED
BOTTLE TROUGH THE WINDOW TO FORCE FREE WOMEN IN TO WEREING THE BURKA
AND TO SATIFY THE ISLAMIC JIHADIST LUST , TO BE SOLD INTO SLAVERY IN THE SLAVE
MARKETS OF THE NEW WORLD WIDE CALIPH BE BE NOTHING BUT FACTORYS FOR SONS
TO BE KILLED FOR LOVING THE WRONG MAN FOR UNLIKE THE BIBLE THAT SAYS LET
HE WITH OUT SIN CAST THE FIRST STONE BUT IN A NEW ISLAMIC FREE LOVE BETWEEN
A MAN AND A WOMEN LETS THE WILD IMANS WILL CAST TO FIST STONE IN ALLAHS NAME
TO MARRY CHILREN BECAUSE MUHAMMUD LUSTED AFTER A CHILD
TO RAID STEAL AND ROB ANYONE NOT A MUSLIM
TO LIVE IN FEAR AS A DHJMMI THAT SOME BARBARIAN MUSLIM WILL BEHEAD YOU JUST BEAUSE
HE THINKS TAKING A INFIDELS HEAD WOULD BE A GOOD ACT OF RAMMEDAN CHARITY
THE DHIMMICRATS ARE IN POWER NOW AND WERE ONE STEP
CLOSER TO BINLAUDINS ISLAMIC HEAVAN AKE THE WOLRD WIDE ISLAMIC FUNDY CALIPH
JIMKENNET 11/1106

Posted by: islamakapigeaters at November 11, 2006 4:26 PM

TheVoiceofTruth is speaking Truth.

Posted by: the poetess at November 11, 2006 4:27 PM

"TheVoiceofTruth is speaking Truth."
Posted by: the poetess
------

Agreed.

Posted by: EliasAlucard at November 11, 2006 4:38 PM

Christians face another powerful attacker who mocks and attacks Christianity with the same frenzied zeal of the islamic jihadst. The secular liberal who criticizes The Pope, the Catholic Church and other non-liberal Protestants at every opportunity at every level in the print media and TV news.

With the constant attackes from liberal secularist at one end and muslims from the other, it shows the absolute courage of Pope Benedict to "take on the world" as he is doing.

Posted by: adobe at November 11, 2006 4:50 PM

Newspeak alert!

Firm yet humble? Is that like friendly fire?

Posted by: Mert at November 11, 2006 4:58 PM

Even though its clear that "dialogue" does NOT mean merely polite platitudes, but frank, clear, forthright, forceful discussion of substantial issues, the Popeskpetics out there continue to make negative comments implying that the Pope should simply proclaim the Crusade against the Muslims. What you don't get is that the conditions that made this possible and effective in earlier centuries DO NOT EXIST in the present age. Then, the Church was the sole glue that held society together, the unifying and common factor that ran through European culture, and the Popes were the civil heads of a powerful Papal State that occupied most of Italy. One was even a professional soldier (Julius II), who as Pope personally led battles - against other European states no less (Is this the kind of Pope you would want? "Careful what you ask for ..." as the saying goes. You might not be able to get Urban II without getting Julius II as well).

Today the Church barely retains any influence in the culture of Europe against the aggressive force of secularism and cultural relativism, and the rump of the Papal States - Vatican City - is an area the size of a square city block with no more than a handful of its own citizens, much less a real standing army. If today's Popes proclaimed a Crusade, the response would be abyssmal. Most of Europe would laugh derisively and his authority would suffer a massive blow. This would not be a victory for the anti-Jihad cause but a massive setback.

At this point, the measured, diplomatic language of dialogue is a necesary part of winning public opinion to his side. What he's said so far though, including this latest statement, is already a SIGNIFICANT departure from the tone of his predecessor, and assuming Benedict remains in good health, his discourse will likely continue to gather force. So let the Muslim hotheads be the ones to make fools of themselves in front of the whole world, because that's what they've done best so far. Benedict will make the better impression by coming across scrupulously as reasonable and moderate by contrast. More than that there are some early indications that he may have already put the Muslim world at least on the defensive, even if its much to soon to say if there's been a "breakthrough".

Once again, fyi: http://www.chiesa.espressonline.it/dettaglio.jsp?id=93245&eng=y

If there's to be a major war - which let's hope there won't need to be - history shows that it can take years to mobilize, so let's take a deep breath. We may have come farther than you think. The next step is Turkey. That trip is likely to tell us a lot more about what he has in mind. Let's see what happens there.

Posted by: templar at November 11, 2006 5:29 PM

No Mert,

"firm" - UNWAVERING

"humble" - NOT ARROGANT

Got it?

Posted by: atheling at November 11, 2006 5:30 PM

Voice of Truth:

"... educating the Catholics".

What do you think he's doing? And yes, they will know what to do. They will learn from their own experience, as will Ratzinger himself.

Mert:

Here's a definition of humility:

the virtue whereby one considers himself as being of less importance than the good of the other - most specifically the ultimate good - repentance and the attainment of eternal life. This is the attitude that marks the action of every sincere Christian toward friend and enemy alike, whether the passive martyr or the aggressive Crusader.

Regarding those required to kill for the preservation of the common good this prompts the hope that death may ultimately be a mercy of healing - a boundary that puts a limit on human sinfulness and the descent into depravity - through which the sinner may yet find the way to eternal happiness. Without this virtue, perhaps more important in conflict and war than anywhere else, we risk being consumed by bitterness to the point of turning into the enemy we fight. Regarding those who adhere to non-violence, it is the moral force that motivates their adherence to the truth despite its grave cost.

Firmness and humility are, as the Pope's statement imples, mutually interdependent.

Posted by: templar at November 11, 2006 6:03 PM

"As for "firmness" I believe the Pope is looking for something that might be a happy medium between Osama bin Laden and Roger Mahoney."

Let us pray! (And I'm an agnostic...)

Posted by: jsla at November 11, 2006 6:59 PM

Pope Benedict said Catholics should manifest their beliefs with the same conviction as Muslims, who "are attached with great seriousness to their convictions and their religious rites."
_____________________________________
Great seriousness indeed! What other religion has spread so fast with so little resources and upheld with such great conviction? What other faith draws its members in vast increasing numbers to its mosques 5 times a day while churches struggle to get their so called majorities to come just once a week?

The world will soon become a vast Muslim state as the Muslims of Europe and the Middle East, Africa and Asia, come together into a grand unified state. The democracies of the West uphold fair play and respect for universal human rights, and the Muslim world admires this and will soon take over the reigns of stewardship for world progress, bring peace and happiness to all.

Your lies and hate will only turn and stab you back you hate mongers. You may have a place in the new Caliphate to stew in your own vomit, where you will die a lonely, hateful death shunned by your friends and family much as YOU are NOW.

Posted by: Salahuddin at November 11, 2006 7:00 PM

Hahaha, good point, templar. Hatred is a destructive force, and sometimes it can be hard to control...forgive me. It must be kept in check if we are to establish something other than fascism in the near future. We must never forget the message of Jesus throughout all of this bullshit that we will inevitably have to wade through.

...However, if I were to choose between our fascism, and their fascism (Islam), I would choose ours. In the end, at least I would be able to listen to Neil Young and Bob Marley.

Posted by: TheVoiceofTruth at November 11, 2006 7:06 PM

I agree with Templar and atheling. We need to be firm and humble at the same time. Arrogance does not win friends and influence people.

Do we want to use the same tactics as Ahmed Bedier? I think not. He and his group at CAIR Florida have been bullying people into submission. We can see what a Catholic woman can do in standing up for herself and her beliefs. This is the right response for all of us.

I really do think that dialogue can be very beneficial with regards to Islam. There are many who will depart Islam once they come to accept the truth, that Mo was a false prophet. We need to help them along, not by bully tactics, but using the same form of apologia that has been used since early Christianity, e.g. the dialogue of St. Justin Martyr with a Jew interlocuter.

All we need to do is employ some of the same tactics that are being used by CAIR, but by twisting what they are saying around, so that the Truth gets out to more people. It is not going to be easy to succeed, but I do believe that we can succeed. Going to war will not succeed against this type of enemy.

Posted by: Maggie4Life at November 11, 2006 7:06 PM

"firm" - UNWAVERING

"humble" - NOT ARROGANT

Got it?

Posted by: atheling at November 11, 2006 05:30 PM

Could not have said it better myself......

Posted by: Alert at November 11, 2006 7:12 PM

"Your lies and hate will only turn and stab you back you hate mongers. You may have a place in the new Caliphate to stew in your own vomit, where you will die a lonely, hateful death shunned by your friends and family much as YOU are NOW.

Posted by the non-hate monger Salahuddin

A statement worthy of the Koran itself. Well done! The Religion of Peace has spoken! Can't you just feel the love?

Posted by: templar at November 11, 2006 7:16 PM

BrownCrusader4Truth,

what a load of hatred you espouse. I hope you do not call yourself a Christian because there is nothing Christlike in your comments. You should be ashamed of the hate that spews forth from your keyboard.

Posted by: Maggie4Life at November 11, 2006 7:20 PM

Firm - Resistant to externally applied pressure; stand resolute against the enemy, both internal and external.

Humility - It is important to point out that humility hardly equates with being a shrinking violet. Humility is really just accurate self assessment. It is seeing oneself as one is, not better or worse than one is. To become deeply humble is simply to crucify what is base and unworthy in the personality and to create a space that will be filled “from above”, i.e. with higher and yet higher truths. The greatest of saints struggled with humility up to the moment of their deaths, and the process did not happen in a vacuum but within a community dedicated to reflecting, discerning and guiding one another.

Pope Benedict is demonstrating the Catholic Church's willingness to participate in the Ecumenical Community Center provided certain basic ground rules of human decency will be adhered to by all participants.

May we all find our way to that Center - the road is mighty steep and littered with many obstacles along the way.

Posted by: Malinois at November 11, 2006 7:20 PM

Margaret Beckett asked the 'moderate' Muslims to stand up and be counted. Well, in Australia they had a test of that.

Backing a bigot

ANDREW Bolt writes: It's the code of the tribe: the worst of us is better than the best of you. We have urgent work to do if we want to save ourselves. Excuses over. The disgraced mufti of Australia set Muslims a test last month and they failed.

That test couldn't have been easier: make Sheik Taj el-Din al-Hilaly pay for preaching that unveiled women invited rape.

Prove that Muslims can't be led by a man who says raped women must be "jailed for life". Prove we have nothing to fear from your faith.

Simple? Yet yesterday 34 Muslim groups signed a petition backing this bigot, while others plan a big rally for Sydney tomorrow, denouncing not Hilaly but the non-Muslims who criticise him.

The results are in: Islam here -- as represented by many of its leaders -- is now a threat.

What's more: our culture of self-hate makes us too weak to properly resist.

I know saying such things is hard on the many moderate Muslims I keep insisting are out there. I am sorry for that, but where in God's name are those people? How much longer must we wait for them to speak?

Posted by: DP111 at November 11, 2006 7:56 PM

"500 years of violently marching into other people's countries and attempting to force your religion and culture on them in the name of "civilisation". There's so much of this that you can do before some people will use the excuse of Islam to try and extract revenge. All those hypocrites complaining about
"Eurabia" etc, you are just witnessing what you Europeans have being doing in the rest of the world for most of a millennium. For the last 500 years we have had "Eurafrica", "Eurastralia", "Euramerica" and "Eurasia" yet I dont see any of you hypocrits complaining about that!

Posted by BrownCrusader4Truth

Hogwash. Take some of your own advice, and cease your hypocracy. What of the Islamic invasions of the Middle East, North Africa and Europe (8th and 9th centuries), including the conquest of Spain.?! These attacks were COMPLETELY UNPROVOKED, and at a time when the West was weak, backward and A THREAT TO NO ONE!! These invasions destroyed the Christian cultures of nearly the entire Christian world, leaving only Europe's intact, and not even all of that - Spain was occupied for 850 years, and other areas of southern Europe (Sicily for example) suffered similarly for decades or centuries as well. The time line you give (1000 years) begins roughly at the time of the Crusades (actually precedes these campaigns by nearly a century, so I don't know what kind of either Math or History you're expounding but its completely separate from the known facts), but these were defensive wars to reinforce Eastern Christendom against an enemy that had proven itself a threat to the West by numerous invasions and raids for over 200 years by that time. That Europe finally got the upper hand against this hatred after two more Islamic attempts at conquest, courtesy of the Turks in 1572 and 1683, emerged victorious, for a time, and built the most successful civilization in the history of the world, is what the Islamic world can not stand. It has nothing to do with justice for the oppressed and downtrodden! If you want to know about the worst, most systematic colonialism and slavetrading systems, read the history of Islamic conquest, and there you'll find it, and all the ideology and apologetics necesary to sustain it, courtesy of the Muslim theologians and jurists themselves.

Yes the West, once it emerged as the dominant power in the world, did some terrible things. Everyone who has power is corrupted by it. But Holy War was unknown in Christian Theology before the 11th century. What does that prove. This: the West was corrupted by Islam - enlightened by it rather, as western apologists for Islam like to say. Sadly, it learned its lessons too well. So think it over before you point the finger of blame for everything that's wrong with the world at "the West" and the "arrogant White man". The freedom that you enjoy to badmouth the West, and the technology you're using to do it, are both the product of that evil western culture. Ah, but again, as I say, I suppose we have Islam to thank for that, don't we.

Posted by: templar at November 11, 2006 7:59 PM

Hello. First time poster here. I began reading this site a few weeks ago, because I am concerned about this concept of dhimmitude in particular and the general erosion and denial of Western and Christian culture in our secular, diversity-obsessed society.

Today, however, I saw something that gave me pause; it’s not a big deal, perhaps, and maybe the choice of a particular site from which to quote the Catechism of the Catholic Church – CCC - was unintentional.

Quoting from the entry today, we see, “Don't think the Pope means cringing dhimmitude when he says humility. If you will turn to your catechism, you will find humility as regards one's neighbor discussed in full.”

I saw that the link in the Benedict “catechism” remark did not link to the Vatican website, but, interestingly to a link to the CCC through www.christusrex.org website. “Christus Rex” can only be described as a most curious site, (see the review of the site in www.catholicculture.org ). Apparently, the site contains some very nice links to some marvellous Christian art, images of churches and monasteries, etc. , BUT… from the same home page there are also *very* disturbing links to the likes of the Institute for Historical Review, (aren’t they anti-Semitic neo-Nazis?) as well as to a rambling world conspiracy site called Bible Believers which appears to be virulently both anti-Semitic as well as anti-Catholic (e.g.: Rome as whore of Babylon in the service of the Elders of Zion, etc.). So try and reconcile this as coming from what is ostensibly pro-Catholic website. I cannot. All I can say is, weird.

I thought this Dhimmi Watch site was for thoughtful discussion of the jihadist problem, not odd links to odd websites. (I thought it was the jihadists who liked rubbish like the Protocols!)

Was anyone aware of this? Or am I totally in the wrong place?

Regards

SineCruceSpesNonEst

Posted by: SineCruceSpesNonEst at November 11, 2006 8:31 PM

So the Pope has acceded to accepting the Moslems' terms and conditions for this "conference."

Get ready for the Chatanooga Choo-Choo, cuz what's coming is another boo-foo, and this time the Pontiff is on the bottom at the business end of the never ending Moslem anger.

Posted by: Alarmed Pig Farmer at November 11, 2006 8:39 PM

Salahuddin, BrownCrusader4Truth,

There is a question that needs to be answered. If Islam is so wonderful then, why is the Christian faith the world's TRUE fastest growing faith?

The global south nations is going through a major Christian boom in the addition of new Christians and new church communities, starting with the evangelicals. Soon if not at this present time, the global south will be sending the missionaries to the west to re-evangelize it. The good news is that the Gospel is going out to the nations.

Posted by: bigcatgirl13106 at November 11, 2006 8:40 PM

#1. "Was anyone aware of this [the nature of a website, www.christusrex.org, to which a link was given by someone]?"

#2, :Or am I totally in the wrong place?"
-- from a posting above

#1. No. If there was a link to such a site by Spencer, it must have been based on his not realizing what that site apparently includes. If by someone else, there is no knowing what a particular poster had in mind, but such a site would not be given any kind of intentional boost here.

No. Take a look at the "Articles" in the bar above, read around, or simply insert some phrase in the Search Box and see what comes up. You will not find a hint of conspiracy theorists, antisemites, fanatics of all kinds, in those who put up articles here. There may be, now and again, a poster who favors such things. And some may escape notice; the entire site cannot conceivably be monitored. But when such a poster, offering that kind of thing, is detected, he is promptly banned, and his postings -- all of them -- are deleted as if he never existed. There are, after all, thousands of crazed websites for crazed people to go to and post to their heart's content. This site is not one of them.

Posted by: Hugh at November 11, 2006 9:33 PM

Thanks for your reassuring reply to my post, Hugh. I have been reading up about Spencer, including words written by his detractors, and am impressed with his presentation and feel that he is offering a good service here.

Posted by: SineCruceSpesNonEst at November 11, 2006 9:52 PM

"Christians face another powerful attacker who mocks and attacks Christianity with the same frenzied zeal of the islamic jihadst. The secular liberal who criticizes The Pope, the Catholic Church and other non-liberal Protestants at every opportunity at every level in the print media and TV news."

It is not just "Christians" that have to face and defeat this other "powerful attacker". It is all of us peace loving, Islam hating humans on this planet.

Islam is the most evil, destructive cult ever in the history of this world.

Until it is destroyed or subjucated the world will not be safe.

If you don't agree, then you are part of the problem.

Papa Ray
West Texas
USA

Posted by: Papa Ray at November 11, 2006 10:48 PM

My bishop says that his generation, the generation that fought WWII, has let down those who have followed after them in this respect-they were so focused on fighting communism that they didn't notice other threats (re-)emerging. In his sermons he has said that whether we want it or not, our next foe is Islam. The storm is gathering.

I think we in the West should give Muslims complete freedom of religion, the ability to build places of worship and gather converts-that is, the equal amount of freedom that Christians, Buddhists and Hindus are given to do these things in Saudi Arabia. If Islam is so peaceful and tolerant-let's reciprocate. Let's give the Muslims the same freedom of worship and of conscience, the same political and juridical rights that they grant all non-Muslims in Islamic countries. Somehow, I don't think they would find these things peaceful nor tolerant.

The trouble with dialogue with Muslims is that the dialogue is rarely evenhanded.

Posted by: St. David, King of Georgia at November 11, 2006 10:59 PM

OT Argghhhh Alert

from the WALL STREET JOURNAL Editorial Page

FIVE BEST

Sense of Ummah
These books are essential to understanding Islam.

BY KAREN ELLIOTT HOUSE
Saturday, November 11, 2006 12:00 a.m. EST

1. "Islam" by Vartan Gregorian (Brookings, 2003)
2. "Muhammad" by Karen Armstrong (HarperCollins, 1992)
3. "What Went Wrong? by Bernard Lewis (Oxford, 2002
4. "The Koran Interpreted" translated by A.J. Arberry (Macmillan, 1955)
5. "Wahhabi Islam" by Natana J. Delong-Bas (Oxford, 2004).
http://www.opinionjournal.com/weekend/fivebest/?id=110009231

Posted by: Malinois at November 11, 2006 11:22 PM

Ratzinger may not be a dhimmi, but he might as well be. He has the biggest bully pulpit in the world, can not be fired, has millions of diehard listeners, and thus the power to speak out against islam as forcefully as is required.

Yet, we get only this kind of coded language, wrapped in politically correct gibberish, just so that he doesn't take any more heat.

If the leader of Christianity can allow himself only this timid level of language, for which we need a decoder ring to guess what he might really be saying, then what can he expect of his flock? Where is the leadership, especially at a time when Christianity needs a forceful leader like never before.

The greatest threat to the western world comes in the form of an alien, anti-Christian religion, and the leader of Christianity can only muster a few pale words expressed as to not cause offence to people who take offence at mere ice cream.

Bravo.

It would appear he is more concerned about the possible death of a nun than he is about the certain death of the Church, and the fate of the western world.

Posted by: August22 at November 12, 2006 12:39 AM

Many people had high hopes for Ratzinger at the outset of his acendence to power, but he has proven to be a vacillating, weak leader. One day he says the truth about Islam, and the next day he retracts his statements and offers apologies. This is absolute disgrace. No wonder that Europe is lost spiritually, and is unwilling to fight for what it no longer believes.

How can you have a civilized dialogue with someone holding a sword and who views any gesture of good will as weakness to be exploited?! Ratzinger can't have it both ways, and it's about time he realized it. By "firm, humble" he hopes to please both Infidels (who will naturally identify more with "firm") and Muslims (who will supposedly appreciate the good will of "humble").

What a pathetic, short-sighted, cowardly dhimmi.

Posted by: US_infidel at November 12, 2006 2:33 AM

Maggie4life.

The only reason the lebanese muslim association has concerns about the mufti is that the time is not yet right for the truth to be revealed to us stupid kuffars.

They are as big a bunch of liars as all the rest of them, including the jolly Mr Trad, so beloved of followers of this site.

Posted by: Anthony at November 12, 2006 4:35 AM

"I came not to bring peace but a sword,"
That's the quote no body wants to discuss. I don't think Christ was a wuss. If you think He was all forgiveness and fuzzy tolerance talk to the money changers. They had a rather different prespective.

Posted by: mrsoc at November 12, 2006 10:40 AM

I have gladly drifted from Catholicism to the remote borders of secularism, however, I do have a positive perception of Bendict xvi in his relationship to Islam.

1) August 22, I ask you, do you think the Western world and Catholics in particular are awakened to the serious threat of Islam? The majority do not have a clue. Do you expect the Pope to stand up now and call for a Crusade against Islam/ The Islamist will react with a wave of violence on commercially duped shells of Christianity who are more worried about acquiring their next lollipop of technology than Islamic totalitarianism destroyong their faith and culture. Unfortuanately, many have to "wake up" in the Western world and the Pope seems to be doing it in a systematic pattern, exposing, a little at a time, violent Muslim reactions to civilized attempts at dialogue. Like Christ, he acts like a lamb in order to expose the wolves.
Like Socrates, he questions the Sophists to reveal baseless dogma.

2) If I remember correctly, Christian baptism makes you a child of Christ but at Confirmation you become a "soldier of Christ". Indeed I believe the Pope is leading his flock to this leagacy and at this time they are still spoiled babies with only a very shallow feeling of what their ancestors went through to preserve their faith that they so take for granted. It is also clear to me that the "leaders" of the flock where made up of many psychological cripples who spread "terror" in the name of Jesus rather than his love and made many, like myself, leave and never go back.

In my lifetime, I have not known a Pope who has exposed the religious pillars of my faith again and has had me look at other Christians as brothers and sisters against a terrible, violent, sinister, imprisoning intelluctual and spiritual ideology that is coming out of Islam. However, I do not think they are anywhere near ready to take up the sword.

The Pope is walking on very dangerous ground.
If he is murdered by the Islamists, perhaps that may do it. The clueless may wake up and scream "what has happened" and then try to learn what has happened and then try doing something about it. Can they come down from their spoils
of civilization and have the courage and guts to preserve that culture and civilization? I hope so.

Posted by: Briars at November 12, 2006 12:13 PM

Salahuddin wrote:
"where you will die a lonely, hateful death shunned by your friends and family much as YOU are NOW."

Isn't that what that hatemonger-blogger wrote to Robert Spencer?

Salahuddin = Dean Esmay or just an Esmay-wanna-be? B-o-r-i-n-g.

Posted by: Josephine at November 12, 2006 12:37 PM

Briars,

I sense this Pope is preparing the Christians in general and in a special way those of the Catholic, which I am also a member for some very rough times ahead. Also he is preparing for his upcoming trip to Turkey. That is a time when he will need many prayers.

Posted by: bigcatgirl13106 at November 12, 2006 1:12 PM

I have to agree with Templar, Briars and Bigcatgirl.

The Pope knows his stuff, and unfortunately, we in the West (of whatever religion/belief system) are nowhere near ready to stand up and be counted.

You are right, Briars, that confimation recognises you as a soldier of Christ, and we don't have anywhere near the numbers we need to fight this battle effectively.

Islam's relationship with everything non-islamic, in my mind, can be seen as an unhealthy, abusive marriage.

The one abused must first recognise that they are abused, then take the necessary steps to deal with the situation.

This means recognising the problem correctly. Identifying our own contribution to the situation, and then making the commitment to ensure it never happens again.

Which also means you take every possible course of action so that when push comes to shove, you know that you have tried everything to resolve it.

If that means dialogue/counselling, negotiation/diplomatic manoevering and a bit of judicious bribery at times, so be it.

But when the gloves come off, there is no going back.

We will know that we did everything possible to do it nicely, humanely, and with dignity.

For now, we are still at the niceness stage.

We have a long way to go, and our Pope knows this.

L.Drummond

Posted by: L.Drummond at November 12, 2006 3:44 PM

It is not just "Christians" that have to face and defeat this other "powerful attacker". It is all of us peace loving, Islam hating humans on this planet.

You missed my point completely. Christians have to wage this battle with one hand tied behind their back. Whenever the Pope or anyone from the clergy speaks out on this issue, the secular press is generally negative. The Catholic Church is continuously under attack from the "peace" loving secular culture. They mock, attack and attempt to marginalize the Church at every opportunity.

The truth is a Christian cannot speak out against islam without having to go over a detailed history of the Crusades, the inquisition, and every other misunderstood aspect of Catholic history. The same old "Christians are no better" argument I hear from 100% of atheists.

Islam is the most evil, destructive cult ever in the history of this world.

I am not defending islam, but so is much of what the popular culture pushes on us is deeply evil (abortion, embryonic stem cell research, assisted suicides, and moral relativism).

Until it is destroyed or subjucated the world will not be safe.

Again, I am not defending islam. However many liberal secularists want Christianity destroyed, or at the very minimum marginalized. Many liberals see islam as a means to destroy Christianity. That’s my point. See the popular press and culture for proof of that.

If you don't agree, then you are part of the problem.

If not "agreeing" with you means fighting the liberal secular movement which seeks to marginalize and destroy Christianity, then I guess from your view I am part of the problem. If the "problem" as you see it is religion in general, then we will not find much common ground in which to work together.

If the problem is the world wide spread of islam and not all religion, then we have plenty of common ground.

I fear islam tremendously, I see both its political and theological errors. I also fear the popular secular movement. I see the moral decay it has led to in Europe and its coming quickly here to the U.S.

That same moral decay has made Europe a breeding ground for islam. If we are not careful it will here also, I hope you recognize that.

Posted by: adobe at November 12, 2006 4:52 PM

August22 and USInfidel:

I think you two don't read the comments. I also have noticed a consistent theme in your comments about the Pope. You simply use any Pope article on this site to bash him.

You are willfully obtuse and blind when it comes to seriously looking at the political, spiritual, and sociological aspects of this Pontificate. The Church, like the US government, does not turn on a dime. There has been some real damage done to the Church since Vatican II, and this Pope knows it. Because of his age, he has little time to change it all. Because of an entrenched liberal Curia, he has little support to change it all. He has a hostile media, a dwindling European flock, and strong anti Catholic opponents such as yourself to deal with, not to mention a most ancient and deadly enemy, Islam, to fight.

I really don't have time to delineate and repost all the intelligent and insightful comments made by THINKING people regarding the Pope's position on Islam and Europe for you. I suggest you get off your lazy butt and read this thread again and THINK about it before you go on automatic pilot and spew more anti Papist remarks.

Posted by: atheling at November 12, 2006 5:45 PM

There is NO WAY this pope is dhimmified. Posted by: StillFedUp

I see that you and others can't wrap your mits around the concept of dhimmi.

A dhimmi is one who is terrorized into submission, afraid to make waves and speak outloud, they supplicate themselves before the muslim for favor, acceptance and to keep their head on their shoulder.

The Jizyah is called a head tax, that is a tax that one pays to stay attached to their head.

The Sicilians (occupied by Arabs for 300 years and living next to them for the next 1,000) grasped the concept of Jizyah (protection money) and made their own club on the basis, they even used the Arab word for Union (Maehfil or mafia).

Sorry folks, B16 is indeed afraid of the muslim, and tapdances around them like a nice little dhimmi.

Posted by: Nariz at November 12, 2006 8:58 PM

"morte alla Francia Italia anelia!"

Nariz:

The initials of the words in the quote I've provided above, taken as the name of a secret society formed to bring an end to French rule over Sicily in the 13th century, is the origin of the word "MAFIA".

Posted by: templar at November 12, 2006 9:37 PM

A dhimmi is one who is terrorized into submission, afraid to make waves and speak outloud, they supplicate themselves before the muslim for favor, acceptance and to keep their head on their shoulder.

-from Nariz

I see no part of any of the definitions that you provided relating to Pope Benedict xvi although I have been in many arguments criticizing his predecesors on this site. This Pope has done much to pull the covers off Muslim intentions by exposing them in all their violent glory. Are you afraid, Nariz, that we are choosing sides?
You do not, nor do I, have an ounce of what power the Pope has in his hands. I do not see a fuzzy Inter Faith intention in the Pope's movements but rather a path for free men to stand up to the tyranny of Islam. It will also be a dividing rod for Muslims between those who wish to hang on to their baseless violent driven ideology and those who wish to stand against it.

Posted by: Briars at November 12, 2006 9:37 PM

Furthermore, Nariz, Benedict XVI is afraid of no one other than Almighty God. If he were, he would not be going ahead with his trip to Turkey. He has probably done more to demonstrate the true character of Islam than have all other European leaders of the last 300 years combined. Why? Precisely because of his determination to combine a clear telling of the truth with a steady, calm, highly rational and impeccably calm rhetoric. You and others who denounce him for not sounding tough enough are free to say what you will but you should ask yourselves whether its more important to vent your spleens or to achieve the success of the anti-Jihadist program. Anyone who, in his position, would initiate a bellicose, full-frontal attack would merely cut off his own nose to spite his face. You can afford to vent if you want to, especially in this forum, but there is far too much hanging on his every word for him to be so cavalier.

Kindly show some respect to this man who carries a burden you can not begin to imagine!

Posted by: templar at November 12, 2006 10:05 PM

"I do not see a fuzzy Inter Faith intention in the Pope's movements but rather a path for free men to stand up to the tyranny of Islam"

Very well said, Briars. Thank you.

Posted by: templar at November 12, 2006 10:07 PM

Newspeak alert!
Firm yet humble? Is that like friendly fire?

No Mert, That's like JESUS!

Posted by: Provoslavni at November 12, 2006 11:57 PM

So the Pope has acceded to accepting the Moslems' terms and conditions for this "conference."

Get ready for the Chatanooga Choo-Choo, cuz what's coming is another boo-foo, and this time the Pontiff is on the bottom at the business end of the never ending Moslem anger.

Posted by: Alarmed Pig Farmer

God forgive me, I had to laugh in spite of myself.

Alarmed Pig Farmer - never stop doing that thing you do ... you're one of my favorites.
Oh and by the way I think you're wrong about the Pope... he can't make the Muslims 'love him' but he can stand and deliver firmly and humbly He's a sharp mo-foe, Alarmed Pig Farmer. He knows what's up... this ain't over yet.

Posted by: A_Plague_on_Both_Houses at November 13, 2006 5:30 PM