Wow… I had no idea. Why aren’t the French outraged at this occupation of their beautiful country?

Posted by: Steve Cheng at November 24, 2006 9:53 AM

Would be interesting to know the percentage of muslims in poitiers and tours.

Does anyone have these figures?

Posted by: BlowHammed at November 24, 2006 10:07 AM

Would be interesting to know the percentage of muslims in poitiers and tours.

Does anyone have these figures?

Posted by: BlowHammed at November 24, 2006 10:07 AM

The French are not outraged because Islam fuses religon and politics, confusing the French (and most other Westerners) into respecting all aspects of Islam for fear of offending religous sensibilities. The French should be proud of their religous tolerance. However, in this case it is misplaced and it is being used against them.

Posted by: bluezion at November 24, 2006 10:09 AM

Advice to members of the French diplomatic corps who are forced to write letters to newspapers or give speeches in which they must lie about the situation: don't. Or if you must, do so in so transparently awkward, clumsy, half-hearted a fashion that it will be clear to your American or other Western audience where you stand.

Francais, je vous parle (not for the first time at this website) from Brazzaville.

For god's sake, take the hint.

Posted by: Hugh at November 24, 2006 10:10 AM

No worries, I will never step foot in france, they invited muslims in and bribed them to stay. Screw france, they made the bed, lie in it. Let france collapse and we can use it as a model to show others what fate awaits them. This is the same france who routinely resists all American policies, fights us daily in the UN and illegally arms rouge states. We owe france nothing and that’s what we should do to help them, nothing.

Posted by: Ronin at November 24, 2006 10:11 AM

Clearly, close to 800 rogue areas outside government control are nothing to worry about. Islamphobia, on the other hand...

Posted by: Jesus Christ Supercop at November 24, 2006 10:32 AM

Since France is the first to allow rampant Muslim immigration, it is only logical their extinction come first. France will lead the rest of the multicultural zombies off a cliff.

UK, are you watching and learning cuz you are next!!!

?

Posted by: Sir Oinks Alot at November 24, 2006 10:40 AM

Ronin:

I concur entirely. We saved their asses too many times before. The 20th centruty proves they have never been able to fight and achieve victory (WWI, WWII, Vietnam...etc...).

This fight requires moral courage and Churchillian defiance of a bully. These are not exactly traits of the morally arrogant French.

Au Revior France.

Posted by: Sir Oinks Alot at November 24, 2006 10:43 AM

My sincere condolences to all French "kuffar" who have been deprived of their cultural heritage and lands. Very sad indeed.

Posted by: Jan Vink at November 24, 2006 11:02 AM

Damn, I am closer than I thought to a number of these places, one is only 5km away.

Posted by: Daffersd at November 24, 2006 11:06 AM

A quick look at the list shows no-go-zones in 'Bastia' & 'Ajaccio'- which is in Napoleons birthplace Corsica.

Quite a horror:

I have very fond memories of that place visiting there frequently between 1976 and 81:
I don't recall seeing any Mohammedans there at all....

Posted by: sheik yer'mami at November 24, 2006 11:09 AM

There are Muslims in Corsica, however the Corsicans have been quite aggressive with them and we have seen a number of stories on TF1 of those nasty Corsicans being racist to the peace loving brothers and causing them to leave.

I think it is in regards to an area where Corsican Nationalists are very strong and nothing to do with the peace loving brothers at all, for a change of course.

Posted by: Daffersd at November 24, 2006 11:17 AM

In India the public calls these areas
Mini-Pakistan

Pakistani flags are openly flown here, Indian flags are burnt publicly

Indian officialdom calls these areas
'Communally Sensitive', for any area over 30% muslim

Police dare not venture here unless in large groups of 100 or more

Posted by: Shyamsunder at November 24, 2006 11:17 AM

I was awaiting further news on this, I heard the radio report this morning but it was rather confusing.

My understanding was that the policeman was black and he shot and killed a PSG fan after having intervened to protect an Israeli fan.

There is a lot of violence between the extreme right wing fans and the peace loving brothers fans, and either one of those groups could have attacked the Israeli fans.

But it was definitely a PSG fan that was killed, this morning I thought a Israeli fan was killed!!!

Posted by: Daffersd at November 24, 2006 11:22 AM

Before throwing France to the wolves, I think it would be wise to take possession of their nuclear weapons.

And any other weapons as well....

Posted by: s at November 24, 2006 11:37 AM

751 no go areas in france!? i couldnt believe reading this the french should organize themselves into mobs, go into these areas and kick sum muslim ass, this is a foreshadow of whats to come for the rest of us unless our governments dont stop fuckin about

this is one of them things that everyone should be shown to highlight the fact that islam = virus

Posted by: free_fred at November 24, 2006 11:42 AM

Come on guys, don't leave me to the tender mercy of these self proclaimed peace loving brothers. Us poor kifur are not able to get any weapons, so I feel like a sheep waiting for the hala butchers knife.

Posted by: Daffersd at November 24, 2006 11:43 AM

It was a far right fan not a Muslim who was shot.

I am really grateful to this police officer for defending this man against a mob of hate filled thugs.

I suppose I should wonder if he would have shot a Muslim fan, because all hell would erupt if he had.

Posted by: Daffersd at November 24, 2006 11:57 AM

Come on guys, don't leave me to the tender mercy of these self proclaimed peace loving brothers. Us poor kifur are not able to get any weapons, so I feel like a sheep waiting for the hala butchers knife.
Posted by: Daffersd

Daffersd, I posted this morning with a bad headache and on my first cup of coffee. I really do think you french have no right to expect help, your government support of the terrorists in your mist sealed your national fate. I do feel compassion for the non muslim french people. Your country has fallen and I would advise you to move. Even if you could get your hands on weapons there are not enough true frenchmen left to defend her. Your once proud warrior heritage has been forgotten and lost to history. No one muslim or non muslim should be forced to live under sharia and it is coming to france and soon. Immigrate while you still can even if you have to give up everything, failure to do so is dooming you and your future family members to life as muslims. Do I sound defeatist? It is just tactics, fallback regroup and hopefully someday counter attack and retake france. I am afraid this will spread all over europe before it gets that far. france was just the first domino. Immigrate and tell your story, make sure you bring proof, drive through those glorious muslim enclaves and show them to the world. It shouldn’t be hard to find pictures of those areas before they fell into ruin.

Posted by: Ronin at November 24, 2006 12:41 PM

This is true diversity. I went on a course and we are meant to celebrate the diversity. Stop the hate speech.
(only joking!)

Posted by: EnglishBlondie at November 24, 2006 1:08 PM

Off topic:

Pro-Israel speech is canceled at Brown

Ummah News Links

Posted by: ummahnewslinks at November 24, 2006 1:12 PM

Dhimmi "no go" zones--soon to include the Rue de la Paix and the Champs Elysee?

Posted by: scaramouoche at November 24, 2006 1:23 PM

"Rue de la Paix and the Champs Elysee?"
-- from a posting above

Both on their way.

Posted by: Hugh at November 24, 2006 1:55 PM

Ronin,

I am a Brit living in France, but my wife is French.

I can't make up my mind whether to stay or leave, I am tied in with a property deal that I can only sell tax free in 2018. And to be blunt being poor in the USA is not an option, I think I would rather die fighting. And I have various things in hand to defend my house and family.

It has not fallen yet and there people even on the left who see the issue with Islam, however I used to think that the French Muslims were more integrated then those in the UK, I am changing my mind at this point.

I understand your anger and frustration, I feel it too and I can tell you my bitterness is perhaps higher than yours, but I can also tell you that there are many like me who are fed up, but the elites have too strong a control and they are as corrupt as hell, Chirac has been bribed by the Islamics for years, while the arrogance of the PC's and Multiculturists stops them from realising that they are wrong.

I do not think it is wise at this point to give up on Europe, the USA needs to do something about the Islamisation of Europe, living here I see more and more signs that things are changing and like all things which involve rights and governments it takes time, but we need the USA.

Does the USA need us, well we are still a large market for US goods and services, we have a certain level of military and technological knowledge that should not fall into the enemies hands. If it does then the survival of the USA will be made harder. French special forces are engaged in Afghanistan by the way.

I heard talk that the USA was looking at the issue of Europe, I hope that this is not talk. It has gone too far, I think we will end up with civil war in Europe, it is coming.

I really do understand your bitterness, those arrogant French, looking down their so called civilized noses at the red necked Yanks, but they live a life of delusion, they are no where near as clever and civilized as they think. You should listen to what some of these so called intellectual French talk about, its an illusion.

Sun Tzu said fight on the enemies land and do not take walled cities, well in which case it is better to fight in Europe then in the USA, or leave and try to take it back. The USA can not afford to walk away from the arrogant and ungrateful Europeans, however much they deserve it and still many of us do not.

I apologize for the disjointed writing of this reply, but my wife is hassling me for writing this reply, the French are difficult you know...

americaningermany, it was a black policeman killing a white racist.

Posted by: Daffersd at November 24, 2006 2:20 PM

Daffersd,

I guess what really bothers me the most are academics, politicians and other so-called elite’s who kowtow to the muslims. They do not seem to realize they are risking the futures of their own children. They don’t seem to understand their own children will be ruled over and enslaved or they don’t care. Whichever it is, don’t know or don’t care, I do care. No one should have the right to demand my children or yours dress, act, worship and react in ways that are alien to them and oppressive. Your elite’s send their own children to your best schools, all of which have islamic education programs, their own kids are being converted as we speak. Any nation that will not or can not defend itself will fall, actually it has fallen it just doesn’t admit it. I have seen muslim oppression up close, it is not pretty it can not be controlled except by force and I don’t see any muslims reforming islam into anything resembling a peaceful religion.

I do have a score to settle with the french so maybe I do sound bitter but working closely together with my french allies in bosnia taught me to never turn my back on them. In simple terms they have picked their side and I mine. I am fully aware there are still good french people who are attempting to turn the tide, I just think it has gone on too long and the muslims have gained to much ground for them to be successful.

If my post sounds hateful or disrespectful to you or your wife that was not my intent, I am just being practical. America has to start limiting her support to those who support her values and yes I mean all types of support, especially military and humanitarian.

You have indicated your preference to stay and fight to the death if necessary, I can respect that and I would do likewise if the USA were threatened. You also sound more English than french, by your own admission you are an immigrant to france and yet you are ready to die attempting to save your new homeland. Where are the brave french warriors of history? Why are they not defending france? Why is it up to you or America? No, I think any people who will not fight should be conquered and outside help limited only to nations who will make a stand. Sorry but that is how I feel.

Posted by: Ronin at November 24, 2006 2:52 PM

Daffersd & Ronin

There's a strong French resistance to the Islamic invasion that needs our support:
1. http://www.france-echos.com/index.php
2. the superb http://www.libertyvox.com/, out of Quebeq, Canada, where a sort of Free University class in Islam is being taught by classy Islam scholar Anne-Marie Delcambre, a teacher at King Louis highschool in Paris.

france-echos used to carry Ms Delcambre's brilliant lectures on Islam on a Quebeq alternative rock station (!!!), Rockik, but that came to an end a couple of months ago, when Madame Delcambre was threatened by Jihadists to stop her lectures or else.

Madame Delcambre still honors her blog committments at liberytvox.com.

There's something to be said about the fact that both france-echos and libertyvox have no functional English versions of what they are talking about.

Why is that?

Posted by: ovidius_naso at November 24, 2006 4:07 PM

Now that these enclaves exist they will grow larger and larger. With muslim overbreeding, they could take over all France.

Where are the resistance fighters to take back France?

Posted by: Voltaire at November 24, 2006 4:11 PM

I'm with you Ronin on this: 'No worries, I will never step foot in france, they invited muslims in and bribed them to stay. Screw france, they made the bed, lie in it. Let france collapse and we can use it as a model to show others what fate awaits them. This is the same france who routinely resists all American policies, fights us daily in the UN and illegally arms rouge states. We owe france nothing and that’s what we should do to help them, nothing.'

Let them stew in their multicultural pot for awhile, while we watch from abroad, taking bets on how long before the flag of Islam is raised higher than the tricolors of la Revolution d'Egalite, Fraternite, Liberte, though it may pain me. The Islamofascist sumps they created in the banlieux is their problem. Until blood flows in the streets, not just thousands of burned cars, the French will continue to live in le denial that there's anything wrong. Naturally, we will once again be called on to rescue them from their silliness, when Hamas, Hezbollah, Islamic Brotherhood et al are goose stepping down the Champs Elysees, saluting 'sig heil' past la residence du president. It will serve them right for being so silly about Islam as a 'religion of peace', the fools.

Payback time, or maybe a French version of 'inshallah' as they rush fast forward towards the 7th century. With 12% Muslims, 'Bon chance' for them. You need another crazed megalomaniac Corsican to get you out of this mess. I'll miss visiting France again, but for now I'll just watch. Good luck 'Daffersd', I too have family in Paris.

Posted by: Battle_of_Tours at November 24, 2006 4:33 PM

Daffersd:

"Does the USA need us, well we are still a large market for US goods and services, we have a certain level of military and technological knowledge that should not fall into the enemies hands. If it does then the survival of the USA will be made harder..."

As an American, I'd be happy to sacrifice some economic well being if it meant that we could cut ties with those who wish us harm. And that means Europe and Saudi Arabia. If I have to pay $6.00/gallon for gas so be it. I'll start walking more, and I'm sure many of us Americans would benefit from it. As far as weapons falling into the wrong hands when Europe falls, we'll take care of that the way Churchill did the French navy when they refused to send their ships to Britain lest they fall into Nazi hands.

"I can't make up my mind whether to stay or leave, I am tied in with a property deal that I can only sell tax free in 2018. And to be blunt being poor in the USA is not an option, I think I would rather die fighting."

Taxes in America are not as bad as they are in Europe, and I'd rather be poor in America than rich in Europe. Come to think of it, I'd rather be a DOG in America than a European right now.

If you want to die fighting, bully for you. However, don't tell us that we have to solve your own self made problems over there. We have our own immigration issues to deal with and a 5th column Liberal Establishment to fight in order to protect our nation from heading down the path that Europe has taken.

When civil war breaks out in Europe don't expect Americans to help. The Left won't support you because they won't support ANY war whatsoever. The Right won't support you because they have had enough of condescending Eurosneer. Of course, there will probably be covert operations from America to influence the outcome, followed by scandals, hearings and investigations a la Iran Contra. I'll be interesting to watch.

Posted by: atheling at November 24, 2006 4:42 PM

These no-go zones are appearing all over western europe. Muslims appear to be setting up embryonic city states with a view to Balkanising the previously unified nation states in which they have settled.
The philosophy behind the EU was best summarised by a passage in a history textbook we were provided with at school in the 1960's(I quote from memory 40 years later):

"Nationalism has become a suicidal policy for European man. The easiest way for a man to prove he is a good Frenchman is to kill a German, to prove he is a good Irishman is to kill an Englishman. We can no longer afford this. The continent is too crowded with nation states and the technology of killing has become too efficient."

I think there is something in this argument but the polyglot, clturally diverse, democratically deficient EU has never been a convincing substitute as an object of loyalty. The answer to this problem is actually staring the boys in Brussels in the face. It despises European culture and democracy and owes its allegiance to a worldwide brotherhood. When Europe finally remembers that the main justificaion for its existence is to stand as a bulwark against Islam, the rule that groups are united by what they dislike rather than by common tastes would kick in. It would be a tricky business to stop such a unity of purpose degenerating into fascism but if vigorous efforts were made to ensure that a move to eject these Muslim incursions was in defence of the ideology of democracy and personl freedom it could be done. This woud involve the institutios of the EU making much greater efforts to be truly accountable and transparent.
Left to the nationalist instincts of different countries, militant Islam can defeat Europe in detail,faced as it would be, by an unco-ordinated and inconsistent defence.

Posted by: wallyUK at November 24, 2006 5:53 PM

The whole crux of these issues is for us to become energy independant,PERIOD, after that we can pick and chose which FRIEND to help if needed, its time we looked inward for a few decades to straighten our own house out!!!!!

Posted by: OLD SARGE at November 24, 2006 7:03 PM

751!? Sacre bleu!

(Or should we start saying "Sacre verte" at this point...?

Posted by: jsla at November 24, 2006 8:01 PM

Or is it vert?

Posted by: jsla at November 24, 2006 8:02 PM

If these are truly "no-go" areas then maybe the only recourse is to cut them off completely, as in, seal the area and forbid anyone to leave or enter, cut off all government and social services, medical care, emergency services, public school funding, utilities such as electrical power, heat, water, and gas, telephone services, public transportation, and let them see how well they do without all this, what I believe is known as "starving them out." Of course that won't ever happen, but it is an appealing fantasy sometimes.

Posted by: angloirishslav at November 24, 2006 11:32 PM

Don't let this stuff prevent you from visting France. I had a really lovely holiday there a year ago.

The 'ghetto' thing cuts both ways: in the areas of interest to tourists, i.e. museums, art galleries, concerts, churches, historic suburbs and towns, castles, scenic places etc, we barely saw any muslims. I guess the jihadists would rather stay seething in their ghettos, because islam makes them soooo superior to representational art, instrumental music and christian churches. It's not as though they couldn't visit those places: the entrance fees are generally low.

Put it this way: if you did see lots of muslims enjoying art, music and landscapes, they wouldn't be sharia-supporting islamist, would they?

As for the 'arrogant' French, it's a myth! We made an effort to be very polite and to speak basic French, and the people were wonderful, quite often switching to English for a fuller conversation. In one town we got lost, forgetting where we'd parked our car. A local man drove us around the town in his car until we found it! Just one example of the many kindnesses we experienced. As for basic politeness of service in shops and restaurants, I found it superior to here in New Zealand. There is a basic standard of politeness in every transaction, and as a tourist you get to enjoy and help maintain that standard.

So go there!

Posted by: Lili at November 24, 2006 11:42 PM

Oh, one other thing. We made an effort to dress well and blend in. We didn't slouch around in baggy shorts and garish t-shirts with sneakers. We did see quite a few tourists dressed like that, and it did grate rather. I could imagine the locals not liking that so much. Why clash with the beauty of a place by dressing badly? I think dressing tidily, polite behaviour and basic French helped us be seen as people rather than just nuisancy 'tourists'.

Posted by: Lili at November 24, 2006 11:47 PM

Lili,

Go there? I don't think so.

I've had two friends on separate occasions have bad experiences in France (and they weren't dressed like slobs either). One had some old man kick her because she wasn't moving fast enough for him going down the stairs, and the other had rude shopkeepers ignore her. But then she was Asian, so maybe that's why. (I mean East Asian, not "Asian" like the Brits call them).

Secondly, I refuse to spend my money in a place where they hate Americans. I won't buy French products and by God I won't go there and spend my hard earned dollar either.

Why don't you move there if you think it's so wonderful?

Posted by: atheling at November 25, 2006 3:19 AM

Why don't I move there? Because New Zealand is my home, is even more wonderful and is not, currently, being taken over by islam. Wee hint Atheling: there is a difference between enjoying a holiday somewhere and wanting to move there. Tahiti comes to mind. Great for a week on the beach, a bit boring and too hot for anything longer...

I find your question 'why don't you move there if you think it's so wonderful' unneccessarily aggressive. I was just trying to be helpful.

I posted the above because some posters seemed disproportionately reluctant to visit France although they seemed to want to. I was just saying that I had a great holiday there, despite the obvious decline it is suffering.

I'm getting tired of posting on this site, as so many of my posts, which I try to keep polite, seem to be met with rudeness and aggression. Maybe I'll stick to just reading what Robert and Hugh have to say, and give the comments a miss.

Posted by: Lili at November 25, 2006 3:32 AM

The header of the Spencer's article is misleading. The areas include also red light districts. And don't telol me there are no areas in your country you'd avoid in the evening

Posted by: FreeSpeech at November 25, 2006 3:53 AM

Let's see, France is about the size of Texas, and I can assure you that there are nowhere near 751 "no go" zones in Texas.

Lili,

I am sorry if I offended you, however, being an American in France is a bit different than being a New Zealander (or Kiwi I should say) in France. There is a great deal of hostility towards Americans from Europe and we happen to be at war with Islamic terrorism, so I don't fancy going to places where there are lots of Muslims who are given free reign to terrorize people. That's all.

Posted by: atheling at November 25, 2006 5:02 AM

Zones Urbaines Sensibles

I a few years we will be calling them Free Fire Zones. (How about now?)

Posted by: Pelayo at November 25, 2006 9:06 AM

Ronin,

No insult taken, but I am English, remember the battle for Arnhem in the second world war, some US paratroopers crossed the Rhine at Njimegen under withering fire to save some Brits. There are people like me who do not forget this.

I think the French will make their stand, I see signs of it. But they still have a misguided sense of smug superiority, they have yet to lose it under the cold hard realism that is coming their way.

atheling,

I am sorry that you feel that way, but I have met some arrogant French and some really nice French, in Paris I punched one who deliberately walked into me. Sadly I think you are stereo typing the French to being like Chirac, many are not.

I look up to the USA, I admire many things in America. But if you want to talk about tax and social security I would remind you about health care and pensions that are crippling GM and Ford. I don't make a point, but sometimes the differences are not quite what they seem. But yes Europe does have too soft a landing for those that do not work and that needs to change.

Battle_of_Tours,

I would rather it did not come to this, but, such is life. But we shall see. I hope your family in Paris is safe.

Posted by: Daffersd at November 25, 2006 9:20 AM

I know france-echos very well, its one I check. Another one is this:

http://no-pasaran.blogspot.com/

Posted by: Daffersd at November 25, 2006 9:23 AM

Lili, I always wanted to go to France. Between what's going on there and GETTING there is what scares the b-jeebers out of me.

When France sees the outcome is dismal, I hope the last one out, gets all the works of art, before he turns out the light. The muslims will have a field day destroying everything.

Posted by: freewoman at November 25, 2006 10:29 AM

My God, how horrible. Please people, stand up and take back your country! I have heard it is beautiful and wished to visit someday. With every day that passes, there's less and less of it to see.

Posted by: Mo at November 25, 2006 11:32 AM

Lili

I have many friends in France, and visiting them is a delight - well for a while anyway, as the excellent food and wine makes me gain far too much weight in a short time.

There are rude people in France, particularly Paris, but they are not the norm, just as they are not the norm in Britain, US or NZ (love NZ).

And France is not alone in appeasing Islam. In almost all conflicts involving muslims vs non-muslims in the last four decades, the US has supported Muslims. In Bosnia for instance, the French supported the Serbs, but the US supported Muslims and went to war with Serbia.

Even now the US is putting pressure on the EU to admit Turkey into the EU and it is France and the French, who are dead against it, realising fully what is at stake.

It is also worth remembering that it is the French security service that has been warning the West of Islamic terrorism long before 9/11, and the US ignored them. French experience and knowledge in this field, is now enabling the US and Britain to arrest the Jihadis. Were it not for this, we would be in far worse shape.

Yes the French can be insufferably arrogant at times, but they are willing to listen to rational argument. I've had no difficulty in this. Moreover, as the saying goes, the French maybe SOBs but they are our SOBs, and we would be the poorer without them.

Do keep posting Lili.

Posted by: DP111 at November 25, 2006 12:03 PM

My experience with anything authentically French was a 1968 Renault R10. Worst car I ever saw. Much like France, I imagine.

Posted by: Pelayo at November 25, 2006 2:19 PM

Lili:
I am sure you were lovely with a cute French accent and politeness and hence the French people liked you ! When people are polite they get politeness in return. I am not surprised you were well welcomed. I met some ppl from NZ last Summer and they were lovely (was it you ? lol).

DP111: all your comments are accurate.

I don't think the French are particularly rude. It is just an attitude. There is a slight cultural difference between France and North America as far as politeness is concerned (and I have traveled in North America often enough to know it). The American politeness is more formal, some would say "more superficial" in that people are so polite you don't really know what they think (especially when it comes to customer service... but also in friendship !).
In France, people will have an attitude, sometimes described as "arrogance"... but they just need to be seduced. Once you seduce them (by being polite, smiling, trying to speak French with a cute accent etc), they become lovely. It is more authentic because I found that sometimes, in North America, people are only polite because it is how things are supposed to be, and it does not necessarily come from the heart... go to Paris, in a cafe, and start being nice to the rude, grumpy waiter (rude and grumpy to the French people also, I must specify). If you manage to make that man smile, he will become the nicest man and will serve you with wit, jokes and good mood, not with that horrible standardised "customer service" you find in the US, where the waitress says to you "Hi, how are you ?" whereas she does not know you and does not care about you.

And remember: the Parisian rudeness is almost an institution ! Outside Paris, people are normally polite.

About safety: France is still very safe in most areas, much safer than the US for instance. Freewoman you can visit France, nothing bad will happen to you. Just like in any other country, avoid the dangerous areas = poor, immigrant, areas, reputed as dangerous, and well identified. And use your good sense to stay safe, just like you would do in any other country, even Switzerland.

I have traveled extensively through France, my country, for 30 years. I have hiked in the country side alone, climbed up some mountains alone, walked through Paris during night, driven alone, night and day, lived in my country house alone for weeks... France is still one of the safest countries in the world, and I hope it remains safe for long years.

Posted by: joiesauvage at November 25, 2006 5:22 PM

by the way, Americans who post here: if you were in Paris and fell on me, you'd think the French are the most polite and nicest people on earth.... because I would have to compensate for my fellow citizens' rudeness ! lol

Posted by: joiesauvage at November 25, 2006 5:31 PM

The argument, of course plausible, that America must defend western Europe in general and France in particular must at this point be evaluated with a fairly cold eye.

It does the US no good to have a nuclear armed Islamo-Fascist France facing it from the opposite side of the Atlantic.

But the US interest is primarily in making sure that France is not a nuclear threat. It remains to be decided how best to accomplish that goal from an *American* point of view.

That may or may not entail saving French culture as such. In fact it may not even require saving France. Perhaps a nuclear armed Poland and Czechoslovakia sitting at France's back may serve the US better. It may be that catching western Europe in a pincer between the US and eastern Europe and actually decimating France might be the best long term solution.

I realize that that sounds completely insane from the point of view of shared history and traditional cultural connections. But it must be faced that those are elements primarily of our past. We have to ask just how relevant they are to the realities of the present. We would have no shared fraternal history with an Islamist, sharia ruled, anti-American France.

You won't hear much of this from official channels, but many Americans, and I mean well read, well educated, decision making Americans are starting to look at history and ask whether France is truly an ally in any meaningful sense of the word, or ever has been.

If the French want Americans to feel a positive obligation to take their well being into account they will have to start thinking in terms of providing the US with an incentive. Most particularly they MUST re-evaluate the fundamental policy they have followed since WWII of formiing an alliance with the moslem powers to create a power center to compete with the US. Was that really the best choice for France?

Personally I think that the underlying habits of thought that lead them to that choice were unhealthy and unrealistic. America is France's most natural ally. But that is not my choice to make. The French must decide that for themselves, and show it consistently in action.

The growing American consensus on this is that when France is comfortable they undermine the US at every turn, but when they are being beaten to the ropes they turn to the US for help and shout that the US doesn't want an enemy occupying the French Atlantic coast.

Well they're right of course, the US doesn't want an enemy on the French Atlantic coast.

But what has the US got now?

Posted by: joeblough at November 25, 2006 7:35 PM

The "Israeli fan" who was under attack by a mob shouting "Kill the Jew" and hurling racist insults at the black cop defending him, was not Israeli at all: he was a Frenchman. Melanie Phillips has all the details here.

Posted by: AbuNudnik at November 26, 2006 12:03 AM

They go by the euphemistic term Zones Urbaines Sensibles, or Sensitive Urban Zones, with the even more antiseptic acronym ZUS, and there are 751 of them as of last count. They are conveniently listed on one long webpage, complete with street demarcations and map delineations.

I looked at the website.
One of these zones is called 'Bon Voyage'.
LOL LOL LOL!!!

Posted by: germaninamerica at November 26, 2006 12:49 AM

Comment: A more precise name for these zones would be Dar al-Islam, the place where Muslims rule. (November 14, 2006)

And where dhimmis dare not venture.

Posted by Robert

Gimme a nice fat street sweeper and 'carte blanche' and i'll be glad to go there ALL ON BY KRAUTY SELF! Wouldn't mind having a few Aussies or Brits at my side when I do.. but.. NEVER MIND!!

Posted by: germaninamerica at November 26, 2006 12:51 AM

The French are not outraged because Islam fuses religon and politics, confusing the French (and most other Westerners) into respecting all aspects of Islam for fear of offending religous sensibilities. The French should be proud of their religous tolerance. However, in this case it is misplaced and it is being used against them.

Posted by: bluezion

You hit the nail on the head, blue! And us Germans trying to be just as "NICE" as the French, where does THAT lead us but into DISASTER?! i'd rather be NICE like GOLDA MEIR!! At least SHE had some BALLS!

Posted by: germaninamerica at November 26, 2006 12:53 AM

Taxes in America are not as bad as they are in Europe, and I'd rather be poor in America than rich in Europe. Come to think of it, I'd rather be a DOG in America than a European right now.

Damn.. as a German living [LEGALLY!!!! LEGALLY!!!! I paid HUGE lawyers' fees!!!!!] in the U.S.A. I am feeling REAL GOOD right now.

Especially being late on taxes. Given i have NO representation!

i guess dating a Japanese girl doesn't help my cause a whole lot. LOL. I dated a lot of Black American girls and that caused me grief from every which way. How sad really for them. not the girls but those who wasted their time on us - instead of inviting us for drinks as one of them who came to Germany with me was surprised to be the beneficiary of :-) thank God she could handle her share of Beer and Schnapps!!! And good for me she slipped me most of what my countrymen were passing her way :-) I've never spent so little money to have a great time in german vars before - even when i lived there!

That was one Black Magic Woman who got those German boys to open the spigots! By the way.. NOT nearly as many American Black Folk as you may think are in favor of islam and jihad. Just to let y'all know.. THEY also have a SILENT MAJORITY just like WE DO! Especially in the South where you'd think they are persecuted and so on. They may be segregated in many ways here - but neither they nor the Whites who live there are stupid when it comes to islam. I've mentioned the subject to many people LONG before 9/11. One Black woman friend even told me that I sounded just like her Pastor when I started riffing on the muftis and their llittle jeehad. I am sure he wasn't a white Pastor either ;-) Hearing this from me just made sure to bring what her Pastor said in church even more close to HOME!

Just like us White folk in the USA who are split deeply - so are others. Not only the African-Americans.. the Latinos too.. and there are Indians here too.. Hindus and we have Japanese..

THEY **KNOW** Let us not alienate them!

Posted by: germaninamerica at November 26, 2006 1:21 AM

Francais, je vous parle (not for the first time at this website) from Brazzaville.

For god's sake, take the hint.

Posted by: Hugh

I've heard of Brazzaville before but don't understand what it really means. Please give us some details. Or maybe i'll get on the web and find out.

It is SO damn sad that France is allowing these no-go zones.

ALLONS ENFANTS!!! For crying out LOUD!!!

A dehors les mousulmanes!!!! VIVE LA FRANCE!! VIVE TOUTE l'EUROPE!!

VIVE LA RESISTANCE EUROPENNE!!!

Posted by: germaninamerica at November 26, 2006 1:33 AM

VIVE LA CORSE!!!!

AU REVOIR AUX ISLAMISTES!!!

Posted by: germaninamerica at November 26, 2006 1:35 AM

"You won't hear much of this from official channels, but many Americans, and I mean well read, well educated, decision making Americans are starting to look at history and ask whether France is truly an ally in any meaningful sense of the word, or ever has been".

Joeblough... I tell you a secret (and "you won't hear much of this from official channels"): the truly educated French (I am not talking of those who got a university degree, which is so easy to get anyway)... the truly refined and cultured French, who love France and the French culture, LOVE AMERICA. Because they know the common history, they admire the sense of liberty, the courage, optimism and economic dynamism of the American people, and also admire such a big democracy. The truly educated French people agree with Tocqueville (whom they have read). The truly educated French people think the French culture is remarkable, but also admire the US culture for what it brought to the world. The truly educated French people, as the truly educated people in general, understand what makes each culture unique and are interested in each different culture.

It is the crowd of brainwashed bovines (brainwashed by the media and the university professors) who claims they don't like the Americans... but there too, I tell you another secret: discuss with them and they will all end up telling you that they have nothing against the individuals... they will all end up with a vague "We dislike the American government, not the people, we dislike Bush"... let us admit that hating Bush is not a French speciality ! The most violent anti Bush diatribes I heard were in the US.

But there is another sign which is, for me, very telling: when you are in France and they ask you "what are you doing during the holidays" and you say "I am going to the United States", they ALL say "wow... you are lucky... where are you going ? " and they get curious and interested. The French people LOVE visiting the US.

The truth is, America amuses and fascinates the French. Everything is huge over there, for us. We are used to cuteness and little cars and good food. And speaking English also amuses the French very much. They are bad at it but they love trying.

The so called hatred of the French towards the Americans is a myth. There is a love-hate relationship between the 2 countries and only indifference, a patronising kindness or forced enthusiasm show disdain. Disliking and criticising the US is a mediatic fashion, for the French it is something you are safe to say, like talking about the good French wine... very safe during a dinner party.

The US is a safe scapegoat for all our problems, because there is a consensus for criticising the US... yes "hating" the US is harmless (probably because nobody hates it) whereas imagine, if we started hating Islam ? It is too true to be tried... too dangerous !

So... forget about what people say or write... it is only superficial. It is a fashion, a thing people can say to appear a bit "deep". But none of the truly clever people I know in France are anti American.

As for France trying to ally the Arabs to dominate America, it is true, and yes it is a ridiculous mistake. That little game has gone on for decades. Recently I was talking to a young diplomat from "le quai d'Orsay" at a party, and provoking him about the French anti Americanism. We had a good debate about Iraq, Iran etc. but I can tell you: there was absolutely no anti Americanism in that young man. America was clearly on the side of civilised nations, next to France, and against the religious fanatics and dark forces of this world.

Posted by: joiesauvage at November 26, 2006 9:09 AM

joiesauvage,

Hi, I would agree with a lot of what you say, though its the elite French that I can't work out, I hope that this young diplomat can get into a position of influence.

About Chirac, I heard that the Arabs had been bribing the crap out of him. Have you heard anything on this?

I read a story about two French special forces killed in Afghanistan, the Brits arrived too late to save them. To my American friends, they died fighting for the West, think on it.

DP111, absolute common sense from you as per normal.

Lili, last night I was having an evening Corse with family, got well and truly roasted, with red wine. Yes make the attempt and they do speak to you. I had seen some Americans start asking things in loud English, I went and talked to them explained that making an effort got better results and I hope they took my advise.

I understand the bitterness of many Americans, but do not let this blind you to the fact that Europe should be saved as a major part of the strategy in defeating Islam and if you think otherwise you are letting emotion run your head. I understand yoru bitterness, but Europe is too important to leave to fall to Islam.

Posted by: Daffersd at November 26, 2006 12:05 PM

joiesauvage

Thanks for your thoughtful and interesting reply.

Your point is well taken and goes to the heart of the issue. Of course the natural sympathies of American people are inclined toward the French, and have been (dissenters notwithstanding) since the days of the colonies. Not to mention that many of us are of French extraction.

And it is at once gratifying and yet painful to hear that the sentiments are mutual among the better folk on both sides. (I infer from your tone and detail of description that you speak from personal knowledge).

A love-hate relation can be an enjoyable and satifying one, as almost any normal family demonstrates.

But "the truly educated French" as you term them need to know about something that Mr. Tocqueville may not have noticed (it's a lot of years since I read him). The Americans are slow to anger. As unbelievable as that may sound, it's true.

At the point at which American restauranteurs go out to pour their French wines in the gutter and middle class travelers start going to Rome instead of Paris, the hurt and anger have burned deep and long. We are far to materialistic and light to do such things on a whim. At that point people have started getting serious about it.

The good people of France need to recognize that things have gone just a bit too far. Not past any dramatic "point of no return", but a bit too far to be taken lightly.

You raise a good point, Bush hating and anti-Americanism is by no means a French monopoly, and exists in good measure, and loudly, in the US itself. But the unfortunate reality is that the pro-American voice among the French is inaudible from the West coast of the Atlantic. The pro-American Americans do not hear the pro-American French. What current Frenchman is famous for saying in public that anti-Americanism is treasonous against France? Hmmm...? None that I can think of.

I know of only one French author who has even written about it (I've regrettably forgotten his name, but I have it somewhere) -- and I only noticed because I was looking pretty carefully. Most Americans never heard of him, and he's not making a big splash among the French public that I know of.

But all of that is social.

There remain the cold realities of politics and war.

In this realm "the truly educated French" seem to have made no impression whatever on their government, or its conduct of diplomatic or military affairs.

And here, sentimental reminders of fraternity and reassurances that the US is really (if quietly) well loved, will not cover the butcher's bill.

"France trying to ally the Arabs to dominate America" (your words), for this many years has been more than a "ridiculous mistake". It has been a deadly mistake, with a real cost in human lives and property -- right in Paris for God's sake!!!

And this is what the Americans are waiting to see changed.

There are few choices here. Either France has allied with the enemies of civilization for the sake of competing with America, or is simply sinking helplessly under the weight of its past. Either way, Americans have to ask, is this an ally? One that can be counted on for anything meaningful?

If this were less than a life or death issue one might take a "wait and see" attitude. But it is not. There were 3000 dead in NY alone.

There are things in life about which one must be absolutely certain, and the well being of loved ones is one of those things. We must, out of necessity, be absolutely cold in our calculations.

And by cold calculation we have to face that France does not support us militarily or diplomatically, and that France may be sinking under the weight of its Moslem population -- who whould love to do to France what they did to Christian/French Lebanon.

And mind you, a more mohammedan France will undoubtedly be a more anti-American France. And that is undeniably the direction in which the demographics are moving.

It is in the light of those facts that we have to ask ourselves which is better for the lives of our beloved, that we risk our safety of our innocents by gambling on an, at best, unreliable France, or that we start planning for alternatives.

The safety of your innocents is something that you do no gamble. You trust, and help, only those who have consistently proven their freindship with action.

As for the rest, well,..

It was not America that declared this war. It was the islamists. It is up to France to decide where she stands.

Just be aware. A lot of Americans are remembering that actions speak louder than words.

Posted by: joeblough at November 26, 2006 6:46 PM

Jean-Francois Revel, is the name of the French author who defends America... and yes he is well known amongst the "educated French"... but of course the media ostracised him !

Posted by: joiesauvage at November 26, 2006 7:33 PM

Well said, joeblough.

Posted by: atheling at November 27, 2006 2:42 AM

Joeblough, very interesting, I agree with most of what you say. But concerning the anger of the amercians towards the french, I have never felt such a thing when I was in the US (many times). I have only met adorable people who told me they loved France. And I have always been surprised by such a sympathy ! (And no, I don't look like Claudia Schiffer lol).

"France has allied with the enemies of civilization for the sake of competing with America...".

It is not FRANCE which has allied with the enemies of civilization, it is the LEFT WING France ... which has ALWAYS allied with the enemies of civilization (cf USSR). Muslim populated cities have communist (sometimes socialist) mayors. The Communist party needs them because less and less people vote communist. It is good for the Communists that the Muslims make many babies. The Communists would ally with the Devil himself in order to destroy America and capitalism and christianity. To a lesser extent, that is also true for the socialists except that in the socialist party you find more diversity of opinions when it comes to Islam. I know some left wing people who detest Islam and say it loudly.

So... France is like any other country, you have the right wingers and the left wingers... but worse, because in France, the war between the Left and the Right is terrible (heritage of the French Revolution which was so violent). Generally, right wing people who do not detest their own culture and who are not anti Christian, have nothing against the US. It is the left wing media and education system which claim they dislike the US.

If Nicolas Sarkozy is elected President (personally, my candidate, and I am sure he will win) you will have a pro American French President.

Posted by: joiesauvage at November 27, 2006 7:42 AM

This is what Sarkozy said about the US, on the 11 sept 2006, in an interview to "Le Monde" newspaper:

"Voici un pays avec le quel nous n’avons jamais été en guerre, un pays avec lequel nous avons lutté dans le passé pour éradiquer le nazisme et avec lequel nous luttons aujourd’hui pour vaincre le terrorisme international. Voici un pays qui connaît le plein emploi depuis près de quinze ans, un pays où la croissance économique est chaque année supérieure à la nôtre d’un point ou un point et demi, un pays où la démocratie combine harmonieusement l’alternance et la stabilité politique. Enfin un pays qui, en matière d’intégration, montre l’exemple : La moitié des prix Nobel y sont d’origine étrangère. Je ne suis pas un admirateur aveugle des Etats-Unis. Mais tout observateur de bonne foi devrait considérer que c’est un bilan qui n’est pas honteux, et que nous n'avons aucune raison d'être fâchés avec le peuple américain.

Faudrait-il être anti-américain pour séduire les Français ? C’est une idée reçue, colportée par une petite élite française déconnectée de la réalité. Je suis moins persuadé que vous semblez l’être qu’il y ait une détestation des Français à l’égard de l’Amérique. Les films américains, la musique américaine, les produits américains, l’american way of life, plaisent aux Français et à sa jeunesse. Ils les font rêver."

About Iraq:

"La crise née de la guerre d’Irak était grave, parce qu’elle était émotionnelle. Les Américains ont eu le sentiment d’être abandonnés par une nation dont ils se sentaient proches par l’histoire et par les valeurs."

Quick translation (sorry for my English):

"This is a country (the United States) with which we have never been in war, with which we struggled against nazism in the past and against international terrorism today. This is a country which has had no unemployment for 15 years, a country where economic growth is superior to ours by one point or one point and a half every year, a country where democracy harmoniously combines change and political stability. Finally a country which sets the example in matter of integration: half of the American Nobel Prices are from foreign origin. I am not a blind admirer of the United States but any honest observer should admit that that country is not shameful, and that we have no reason to be angry with the Americans.

Does one need to be anti American to seduce the French ? I don't think so. That is a simple prejudice, from a little French elite which is disconnected from reality anyway. I am less convinced than you seem to be (= the journalist who is doing the interview) that the French people detest the Americans. The American films, music, products, the American way of life, seduce the French people and the youth. They make them dream".

About iraq:

"The crisis created by the war in Iraq was serious because it was emotional. The Americans had the feeling they had been abandoned by a nation (France) whose culture and values they felt close to".

for the whole interview:

http://sarkozyblog.free.fr/index.php?2006/09/11/295-nicolas-sarkozy-livre-sa-vison-de-lamerique

Posted by: joiesauvage at November 27, 2006 8:02 AM

NB: France is the second investor in the US, with 150 billion dollars. 3000 French companies are present in the US, directly or indirectly employing 600,000 Americans, and everyday one billion dollars are being exchanged between France and the USA.

Posted by: joiesauvage at November 27, 2006 8:12 AM