| FrontPageMag.com | By Robert Spencer | By Hugh Fitzgerald | Books | Jihad Watch | Robert Spencer | Islam 101 | Qur'an Blog |  |
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There is no chance Turkey will be admitted to the E.U.
Some of the many reasons for this are located in the fact that Turkey let the murderer of Don Andrea Santoro, the priest murdered on February 7, 2006, get off lightly. And the Turkish authorities did nothing to publicize, throughout Turkey, exactly what it was that prompted those teenagers to harass him, to demand money, and then finally to return to kill him -- he who in Trabzon (Trebizond) did nothing to anyone, but merely had a congregation of eight or perhaps nine people, several of them Georgian women.
Turkey may think that the Santoro episode is over, but it will never be over -- just as the Armenian murders will never be over, or the bombing of the Galata synagogue, or hundreds of other outrages big and small, until the Turkish population connects what has been done, not by "Turks" but by "Muslim Turks," following the tenets or prompted by the attitudes of Islam, to the contents of Islam itself. The secularists, the beneficiaries of Kemalist restraints on Islam, have a duty not only to resist Erdogan, but to undo him altogether, and then to push, push even harder those Kemalist constraints which they accepted without sufficient gratitude or understanding.
Kemalism was not meant to make Turkey merely safe for commerce, for the assorted Sabancis of this world. It was meant to transform it, by offering the most advanced a way out of Islam (without open apostasy) and offering the primitive a substitute cult (the cult of Ataturk replacing the cult of Muhammad, the cult of "The Turk" replacing, or limiting the appeal of, Islam). The fault of the Kemalists is not that they went too far, but that they never went far enough. As long as some could be free, they did not think they had to pursue the link between Islam and crimes committed, either in the past, or in the present, by Muslims in Turkey. Wrong.
Start with a simple case. Start with the murder of Andrea Santoro.
For more on the case, see Corriere della Sera, February 9, 2006, page 10, especially the article "Insulti e minacce al prete, il giorno prima di ucciderlo" by Marco Imarisio.
Meanwhile, in Turkey some influential voices are already saying that Turkey has lost interest in EU membership. Several different things explain this declared loss of interest:
1. Recognition that this is unlikely to happen, and that the process of candidacy will expose Turkish practices and Muslim beliefs to close, possibly humiliating, scrutiny. The fiction that Turkey is secular, advanced, Western, etc. will be exposed.
Both Turkish "secularists" and Turkish True-Believers will not wish to humble themselves, or see themselves receive a rejection that they already feel as a humiliation, so like anyone touchy who forefeels he will be turned down for something, they claim to have lost interest.
2. Recognition that Turkey cannot possibly obtain such admission without changing so many things that it will be a threat to the Army as the guardian of Kemalism -- and this is something that some Turkish secularists are unwilling to sacrifice.
3. Recognition that Turkey cannot possibly obtain such admission without changing so many things that this will threaten Erdogan and his supporters, and the reappearance of Islam as a political force. Thus Islamic parties and their supporters may have decided that whatever worldly (economic) gains may be achieved for Turkey by its entry into the EU, the damage to Turkey as an Islamic state, and the danger posed to its Muslimness by further contamination from the West, is not worth it.
These motives vary and reflect contradictory fears from different people. The end result is the same.
For all this the Turks should put the blame right where it belongs. That blame belongs to Islam, and to the way Muslims have historically treated non-Muslims. But since the Cult of Muhammad was replaced by the Cult of Ataturk, and Islam was at least provided with a rival in the Cult of the Turk and the Turkish Nation, now is perhaps the time for secular Turks to use the denial of Turkey's admission as a way of encouraging more secularism, rather than a retreat into the psychic consolation prize of more Islam. Erdogan and his primitive followers should not be allowed to use what they will paint as "Christian hostility" to further the cause of Islam. Rather, the intelligent Turkish secularists, who make up about one-quarter of the population, should realize they took Kemalism for granted for too long and did not do enough to defend and expand upon what Ataturk accomplished. Nor did they ever make clear what was wrong with Islam -- using for that pedagogic task the examples of all of the Arab states and Iran. That would have been enough. That would have been more than enough.
Who to blame for Europe's Nay-saying neinsagen gigantic and obvious NO? The horrible Iranians. The even more horrible Arabs. It is they, and "their Islam," that gave nice "moderate" and "forward-looking" Turkish Muslims such a bad reputation. And now just look at what they've gone and done, those Arabs and Iranians -- they've turned the West against us.
Keep up that theme. Spread it around. If you are a secularist in Turkey, you want that certain rejection used for your benefit, and not for the benefit of Erdogan and Erbakan and all the rest. You want to weaken Islam, and to turn the Turks away from the Iranians and, above all, the Arabs. Even if Turkey cannot become a member of the E.U., you want it to become more like a European, i.e., non-Muslim state, and less like one more Muslim one.
Don't you?
Posted by Hugh at November 30, 2006 9:25 AM
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I wouldn't count Turkey out of the EU just yet. There will still be people pushing for it to happen and the evil ones always seem to find a way to victory, either by hook or by crook.
Posted by: ISLAMSFORLOSERS![[TypeKey Profile Page]](http://www.jihadwatch.org/dhimmiwatch/nav-commenters.gif)
at November 30, 2006 9:42 AM
this is good it might just make Turkey wake up and realize you can't do things like turning Christendom greatest church into a mosque in and then into a museum it needs return this church back to Christendom and and and admit to the genocide that Turkey committed against the Armenians and to get out of Cyprus. As well the West needs to throw off the shackles of political correctness and start calling a spade a spade when it comes to Islam.
Posted by: islamakapigeaters at November 30, 2006 10:53 AM
Turkey stands every chance of becoming a European Union member country, and the dominant one at that. The EU for a start is a completely undemocratic hegemon that is hell bent on destroying the nation state, and creating this daft notion of multi-cultural 'Europeanness'. The EU is completely divorced from its 'citizens'- the peasants are expected to do as dictated to by the Eurocrat fatcats in Brussels - look at the examples such as Ireland, who when they voted against previous treaties, had to keep re-voting until Brussels got the right answer. Same with the EU constitution - pardon mes amis, I thought countries had constitutions, not trading blocs - nevertheless, no politician in Brussels will accept that the EU constitution is dead even though both the French and Dutch have rejected it. Once again the arrogance permeates from every nook and cranny of that oversized bureaucracy, or idiocracy or whatever it should be termed as. Which brings us to the issue of Turkey - no 'European' in any 'European state' wants Turkey to join, expecially given the current problems we are enduring with Islam already in our midst. Yet does the EU listen to the ordinary man on the street - of course not because they are too high up in their ivory towers or riding too fast on their gravy trains at the expense of the ordinary taxpayer to remember who they actually serve - and that is the real question - who do Eurocrats serve since they are unelected, and basically unaccountable to the public. So if the EU says Turkey will be joining, no matter what public opinion wants - Turkey will join. From Turkey's point of view, they may claim that they don't care anymore - trust me, they want to join more than anything - all those Euros flying their way, and the chance to dominate Europe once more - hey we'll be seeing the resurrection of the Ottoman Empire in the next two decades - guaranteed.
Posted by: GreekFrenchInfidel at November 30, 2006 10:59 AM
there is no chance in hell of these peasants getting into the EC - there would be a revolution and also for all the doomsday sayers there is no chance in hell of Europe becoming an Islamic state - or anything close to it.
Ralph Peters wrote a similiar article the other day.
Speaking for Scotland - we did not fight a thousand years of war to allow a bunch of sect worshipping illiterate peasants take over our country. If they tr the will be in for a nasty shock and I think that goes for the rest of EUROPE
at November 30, 2006 11:29 AM
Question:Is it possible for a member of the EU to leave it? If so, I'd like to see at least some countries leave it.
Posted by: ISLAMSFORLOSERS at November 30, 2006 11:34 AM
Speaking for Scotland - we did not fight a thousand years of war to allow a bunch of sect worshipping illiterate peasants take over our country. If they tr the will be in for a nasty shock and I think that goes for the rest of EUROPE
Posted by: johnmac
But Europeans for the past thousand years have more or less had healthy birth rates and an identity to fight for, not some stupid mulitcultural fantasy that we have nowadays. Europeans have lost the will to fight - there is a sickly malaise sweeping through Europe, and it is this loss of all purpose - loss of culture, identity and religion, that is sounding the death knell for European western civilisation as we know it. Europe has some of the lowest birth rates in the entire world. When a civilisation loses the will to reproduce, what hope is there?
Posted by: GreekFrenchInfidel at November 30, 2006 11:46 AM
GreekFrenchInfidel posted: So if the EU says Turkey will be joining, no matter what public opinion wants - Turkey will join.
Great post. The one exception to the above rule is if France rejected Turkey's entry. The EU has always been the servant of France and will not dare challenge the French. And wither goeth France, do the EU and Europe.
Posted by: DP111 at November 30, 2006 11:55 AM
"Europeans have lost the will to fight "
What a load of rubbish - human nature has not suddenly changed - we are the same people who gave you the holocaust and the second world war - the first world war - world conquest etc etc etc - no if we are annoyed sufficiently we will simply vote in someone to do the job on our muslim friends and live with the guilt later - aka the modern day germans .
I have always said all this will end badly for the muslims!!
at November 30, 2006 12:01 PM
the problem with all the folks who write on these blogs is that they are in the main educated and middle class - they just dont understand the nature of man the beast. We are beasts - underneath just animals and when threatened we will act like animals and defend our territory - its bizare to think that we would do anything else - we would all have to be pathetic - enfeebled creatures and we are anything but - get real! Scotland the brave
heheheheheheheheheheheheheh!
at November 30, 2006 12:06 PM
Great post. The one exception to the above rule is if France rejected Turkey's entry. The EU has always been the servant of France and will not dare challenge the French. And wither goeth France, do the EU and Europe.
Posted by: DP111
Of course. But unfortunately demography is against us. France has such a vast Muslim population that just keeps expanding, and in all honesty, politicians are afraid of them - they do anything to placate them. Why do you think M. Chirac was so vehemently against the American invasion of Iraq? If he supported it, French cities would go up in flames as they did last year, and almost again this year. Do you really think the policians will want to show any form of 'Islamophobia' by not allowing Turkey do join since that is what their Islamic brothers in France want? As for the average French person - as long as you keep them quiet with short working weeks and lavish social benefits that the state cannot really afford, then there won't be any problem there. Trust me.
Posted by: GreekFrenchInfidel at November 30, 2006 12:06 PM
"Europeans have lost the will to fight "
What a load of rubbish - ...
Posted by: johnmac
Okay monsieur, who is going to fight - all the European geriatrics in their wheelchairs, who in their younger years forgot to have children?
Posted by: GreekFrenchInfidel at November 30, 2006 12:09 PM
"...they just dont understand the nature of man the beast. We are beasts - underneath just animals and when threatened we will act like animals..."
Posted by: johnmac at November 30, 2006 12:06 PM
So true. That is especially true of Islam-I think part of its appeal is the fact that it panders to man's most base instincts-killing, raping, destroying. Islam OK's it all and provides a bit of legitimacy to it by claiming it's the will of its god to indulge in these fun things. After all, who wouldn't want to have all that "fun" if a god approves it?
at November 30, 2006 12:20 PM
"Okay monsieur, who is going to fight -!
Well I would hope you would for a start - stand up and be counted - me as well - thats 2 of us not bad for the start of a new anti-jihad defence force -
No the fact is the jihadists are an annoyance as are the peasants muslims who have entered our countries under the radar so to speak. If or when they become more so then things can change in a heartbeat in europe.
Remember this the germans in the twenties were the most educated - cultured people this planet had ever seen and they decided on mass to go on a blood lust world conquest - and they were not even threatened - just a bit pissed off- heheheheheheh
at November 30, 2006 1:59 PM
Hugh is right.
At this point, there is no chance Turkey will be admitted into the E.U.
Posted by: US_infidel at November 30, 2006 2:10 PM
Fjordman raises an important issue that needs to be carefully reflected upon.
Iraq is unequivocal proof that Islam is incompatible with democracy. The fact is if we use the term "democracy" to mean consensual government, democracy only works when everybody has a certain fundamental respect for each other. If there are elections and the democrats win even by a very small margin, democracy requires everyone even those who have lost to respect the governance of those who one.
Respecting the governance of those who won does not mean murdering them or subverting them or undermining them. It also requires that there be periodic elections where a change in governance can take place.
Islam is incompatible with democracy because it claims sharia should be the law for everyone no matter how many people think otherwise. In this sense it is anti- democratic. It is illustrative how in Iraq if the Sunnite radicals are 10% of the population they will kill and maim and gore no matter what the majority will.
Significantly and somewhat complementing the Sunnites the shia Sadr radicals to the same thing. It does not matter the religious or ideological differences, the shia will claim the right to murder you in the name of Allah, the prophet and Ali.
Democracy cannot flourish where Islam of the general Sunnite ideology or Shia ideology prevail.
The other major defect with Islam being compatible with democracy is that today the term democracy applied to western governments includes in addition to some component of consensual government by the governed of fundamental rights. Thus, the majority is not allowed to have a meeting to decide to enslave the minorities. We invoke in the democratic west, fundamental rights sometimes mistakenly described as human rights. The fundamental rights are freedom of religion, speech, assembly, etc. Freedom of religion requires that every other religion respect that freedom. If it does not, it is inconsistent with democracy.
Islam is incompatible with democracy and will never be compatible. So long as it gives the individual no freedom to be of a different religion or it does not respect elections or the equality of people to be treated equally under the law it will remain a monstrous vestige of the Dark Age during which it arose.
at November 30, 2006 2:15 PM
But Europeans for the past thousand years have more or less had healthy birth rates and an identity to fight for, not some stupid mulitcultural fantasy that we have nowadays. Europeans have lost the will to fight - there is a sickly malaise sweeping through Europe, and it is this loss of all purpose - loss of culture, identity and religion, that is sounding the death knell for European western civilisation as we know it. Europe has some of the lowest birth rates in the entire world. When a civilisation loses the will to reproduce, what hope is there?
Posted by: GreekFrenchInfidel
That`s easy , let immigrants from rabid Christian
nations such as Argentina,Brazil,Chile and Mexico
come here instead of Turks.
at November 30, 2006 2:20 PM
For the information of all, George W. Bush and the American Kleptocracy, the Corporate Elite that IS the Repugnican and Dhimicrat Party, and that uses "cultural conservatives" to stay in power, are the strongest proponents of Turkey being admitted to the E.U.
Let that sink in.
Or read This Article or google yourself Bush Turkey E.U. Admission.
Posted by: Nariz at November 30, 2006 3:50 PM
"Freedom of religion requires that every other religion respect that freedom. "
Considering islam is a religion I am not too fond of this freedom.
Let's learn from the germans and see how easy they banned scientology.
http://www.german-way.com/religion.html
Posted by: StillFedUp at November 30, 2006 4:51 PM
The EU must have gotten a little bit nervous because of all the anti-Pope protests in Turkey that they had drawn up the courage to "just say no!" Hugh is right, Turkey is not going to get in the EU.
Posted by: bigcatgirl13106 at November 30, 2006 5:03 PM
O Jihadwatchers:
I hope that Hugh is right, but never say never.
I have seen things in the last 25 years I would never have believed.
at November 30, 2006 11:18 PM
Who to blame for Europe's Nay-saying neinsagen gigantic and obvious NO? The horrible Iranians. The even more horrible Arabs. It is they, and "their Islam," that gave nice "moderate" and "forward-looking" Turkish Muslims such a bad reputation.
NO. I MUST contradict this. I lived in Germany. I spent time around turks - not by choice but in Germany it's unavoidable. Let me tell you, they are the most treacherous, vile and back-stabbing lot you could ever meet. I played football against them and they are anything but gracious losers. They put my defensive back in the hospital simply because he came running toward their goal with the 8-0 on his foot. So their goalie practically lynched him. And we're not talking World cup or anything near that prestigious where the stakes are higher - as is the scrutiny, of course.
turks don't take NO for an answer either. I used to sell refrigerators and electric stoves to make extra money while I was in High School.. and I felt it was better use of my time doing business rather than being lectured about the evils of America by a card-Carrying commie teach in German Class.
I had customers from the Swedish and the english embassies even and they paid the asking price. Normal people who didn't like the price - they left.
Now I got my first turk coming. I know the accent, They don't even make an effort to speak good German. I used to chalk it up to stupidity but now I chalk it up to islam/arrogance. Arrogance about WHAT?
Anway... here he comes in his beat-up Mercedes diesel... yuk..
doesn't pull into the driveway like a respectful person would.
Everyone else pulled in like a human being. But yes of course, the turk HAS to make a spactacle of himself!
Anyway. He picks a fridge. I tell him it's DM 125, which is the price for anyone, I didn't go higher on him for being rude.
He says: "I'll give you 20 marks." Now I am in SHOCK! Even from a turk this is unbelievable. It gets better. I say no and he "offers" me $25. Oh WOW!! Knock me DEAD! he goes up to DM 30 and says defiantly it's his last offer. I say *patiently as before* I'll take 10% off. He insists and insists. When I ask him to leave he gets nasty - predicatably so. Says I don't like turks and i am a nazi. So I told him a. I am not a nazi and b. I definitely don't like YOU! Please leave now. And that I don;t owe him information on my feelings about turks.
Ooooh the guy was MAD!!! he almost backed into a big fat truck on his way out. THAT would have been PERFECT :-)
Anyway.. moral of the story. Thay offer as little as possible. Then they try and play the guilt fiddle. When that doesn't work they threaten you. And finally if they feel lucky [ie. strong enough] they WILL get violent at the drop of a dime.
They will play it JUST as I just outlined.
HEY i *am* a prophet when it comes to predicting the behaviour of the turks :-) The rest of the islamos are pretty much the same.
All of them are big on using guilt and intimidation.
So i am afraid they will find a way and since Brussels pretty much acts against the will of all of the peoples they supposedly 'represent'. The people of Denmark France and Holland all rejected the Euro-constitution outright in a referendum. In Germany the politicians made the decision FOR US ignoramuses. THEY KNEW DAMN WELL WE'D HAVE VOTED THAT CRAP DOWN!!!
THEY ALWYS KNOW BETTER. Oh yeah, the LiEberals are less authoritarian than the Conservatives as we saw in that little umma-link survey! yeah, SOOOR! And i have a nice apartment for sale overlooking the Hudson River and the Brooklyn Bridge!
I do hope Hugh you are right. But I am afraid you made a bad call on this one!
at December 1, 2006 12:07 AM
Well I would hope you would for a start - stand up and be counted - me as well - thats 2 of us not bad for the start of a new anti-jihad defence force -
[...]
Posted by: johnmac
I'll go in on that. Makes 3.
at December 1, 2006 12:10 AM
Sadly, Europe is dead, it just hasn't hit the ground yet. Demography is destiny and Europe's demographic fate is a mathematical certainty.
The birth rate of muslims within the UK is almost exactly ten times that of the "euro" population who are not even close to having enough babies to delay, let alone prevent, their eventual near-extinction and dominance by the muslim immigrant population. By 2040, every major city in the Netherlands will likely be majority muslim. Malmo, Sweden may beat that date by a significant margin. Today, one third of the inhabitants of France under the age of 20 are Muslims whose population enjoys an extremly robust, developing world birthrate which dwarfs that of european French. It is the same across the continent. Do the math.
In spite of the depressing demographic statistics which confront them, europeans enthusiastically encourage and support an endless stream of hostile, unassimilated muslim immigrants in their efforts to take up residence among the teeming millions already in place. Their numbers grow each hour. Europe demonstrates her suicidal fetish for "tolerance" and "diversity" in the face of her tormentors. The demographic jihad will be triumphant.
Keeping Turkey out of the EU is about the only thing europeans might do to avoid speeding up the inevitable, but it will not prevent muslim domination. Europe's aging native populations are literally imploding. Europe is effectively rendering itself culturally and militarily impotent. Buy your prayer rugs now and beat the rush! Sharia will rule.
What is utterly incomprehensible is how enthusiastically euro elites embrace cultural and demographic suicide! Equally mad is the sheeplike accceptance of their fates by the euro masses. Tragically, modern europeans seem to have lost the will to survive in the face of aggressive islam. Their heads are buried in the sand and raised up only for the purpose of consuming a suicidal cocktail of moral and cultural relativism, political correctness, ignorance and arrogance,which will be the death of european civilization on the continent. That will surely make the world more problematic for the rest of us. For that reason if no other, I cling to the fantasy that europeans will wake up one day and take the draconian measures (which they are incapable of contemplating now) necessary for the survival of their posterity. I believe that it may already be too late.
Posted by: THw5kds at December 1, 2006 1:16 AM
Bush, Blair, Republicans, Democrats, numeous 'foreign policy think tanks' (or is that 'stink tanks' or 'fishbowls' are for Turkey in the EU. It is probably a good question to ask any politician. The vast majority would say yes.
Posted by: John Sobieski at December 1, 2006 2:04 AM
I agree with Fitzgerald and Robert Spencer and want to tell you...
THE VAST MAJORITY OF FRENCH PEOPLE ARE AGAINST TURKEY JOINING THE EU...
After reading the article and all the posts here I have to agree with Fitzgerald, Turkey will NOT be permitted into the EU. They are too poor, too muslim, too fascistic (no real democracy), too unrepentent of wrongs that the EU wants them to admit and remedy and so on. 5 million muslims in France be dammned --turkey will not get in. Instead
"The Armenian issue has complicated the country's bid for EU membership. Chirac and the two leading contenders to replace him in elections next May - Nicolas Sarkozy, the conservative interior minister, and Ségolène Royal, a Socialist - all say Ankara must acknowledge the genocide before gaining EU membership.
Can Baydarol, a Turkish analyst of the EU, said that although the decision of Parliament seemed to have no direct effect on relations with the bloc, the HOSTILE ATTITUDE OF FRANCE demonstrated the obstacles to full membership "[1]
Also, there are 61,044,684 [2] million people in France, minus the 5 million muslims leaves 56 044
684 million French. Now 58% of those OPPOSE Turkish entry, so to say that 5 mil muslims can sway the French soul is, frankly, false.
"Nearly six out of 10 French people oppose Turkey joining the European Union, according to an opinion poll published Friday.
The LH2 survey for RMC radio recorded 58 percent of the public against Turkish membership and 28 percent in favour."[3]
Please note the LH2 Institute is a very esteemed international and scientific stastistics and polling organization [4]. Their poles are very accurate.
-------
Reference:
[1] "France acts to outlaw denial of genocide"
By Thomas Crampton International Herald Tribune
Published: October 12, 2006
http://www.iht.com/articles/2006/10/12/news/france.php
[2] deomographics map scroll down to 2006 entry
at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_France#Today
[3] "58 percent of French oppose Turkish EU entry" - poll
AFP via The Tocqueville Connection ^ | 10/20/2006
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1723126/posts
[4] LH2 INSTITUE homepage is at
http://www.lh2.fr/
(the page is in french if you do not speak french you can translate its webpages with free online
babel language translation engine located here:
http://babelfish.altavista.com/ )
at December 1, 2006 3:28 AM
"The LH2 survey for RMC radio recorded 58 percent of the public against Turkish membership and 28 percent in favour...
Nine states were more hostile than France to Ankara's membership bid, including Austria at 81 percent and Germany ---which has a large Turkish population---at 69 percent." [5]
LH2 Institute does the "Eurobarometer" series of europe wide comprehensive surveys. Eurobarometer is a huge program. [6]
References:
[5] LH2 Institute, article here:
http://www.expatica.com/actual/article.asp?subchannel_id=25&story_id=33855
[6]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eurobarometer
more french
http://www.eubusiness.com/East_Europe/061020105723.v7q0ub5w
at December 1, 2006 3:36 AM
Also in the survey its mentioned that many French and other Europeans are aware of the Armenian genocide (see the first article reference [1] above)
but here is a repost of mine in case anybody wants to see more about the Armenian Genocide (actually its the "Christians slaughtered by muslims for being muslim" genocide) I agree with EluisAlucard that "Armenian Genocide" obscures that fact (I think it was EA who mentioned that in another thread).
--------------
QUOTE FROM NEW YORK TIMES ARTICLE (link to whole article below):
"Turkey, Armenia and Denial
Published: May 16, 2006
Turkey's self-destructive obsession with denying the Armenian genocide seems to have no limits. The Turks pulled out of a NATO exercise this week because the Canadian prime minister used the term "genocide" in reference to the mass killings of Armenians in Turkey during and after World War I. Before that, the Turkish ambassador to France was temporarily recalled to protest a French bill that would make it illegal to deny that the Armenian genocide occurred. And before that, a leading Turkish novelist, Orhan Pamuk, was charged with "insulting Turkish identity" for referring to the genocide (the charges were dropped after an international outcry).
Turkey's stance is hard to fathom. Each time the Turks lash out, new questions arise about Turkey's claim to a place in the European Union, and the Armenian diaspora becomes even more adamant in demanding a public reckoning over what happened"
quote from "THE NEW YORK TIMES" full article may 16 2006:
---------------------
Armenian Genocide Survivor Sam Kadorian
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AfC0thL5lUc
Armenian Genocide (1915) Survivor: Hagop Assadourian
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ln3JYUYnsqE&mode=related&search=
Armenian Genocide (1915) Survivor: Richard Parseghian
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u1ijIaMWwtk&mode=related&search=
Armenian Genocide (1915) Survivor --Alice Muggerditchian
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BHiaiqowsQg&mode=related&search=
Armenian Genocide Survivor Vartan Hartunian 1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KNYiNbRZBDk&mode=related&search=
mass kidnapping of Christian boys and girls in Turkey (to raise them as muslim and to marry the girls):
Armenian Genocide Survivor - Kevork Balian
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QdnHOSs0XNA
at December 1, 2006 3:41 AM
"Europeans won't want to be labeled as "racists" so many of them won't raise a peep against Turkey joining the EU."
Posted by: americaningermany
Actually AmericaninGermany I believe the French and others will find a way from the article above [1]:
"Although most of France's top politicians, from Chirac on down, supported the EU's planned constitution, the French rejected it last year in a referendum that was also seen as a vote against further EU expansion. The problem for politicians seeking to succeed Chirac is how to oppose Turkish entry without taking on the xenophobic tones of the far-right."
So they will use a different tact.
As you my American friends always say:
"There is more than one way to skin a cat".
Or in this case an Islam "rat"
Posted by: THE ALLIES SHALL WIN at December 1, 2006 3:45 AM
I have faith in the European populance in other words.
Posted by: THE ALLIES SHALL WIN at December 1, 2006 3:47 AM
Lets wait and see. I think Fitzgerald is right. (and since Robert is posting that I am assuming he agrees with Fitzgerald) so I consider myself in very good company.
:oD
Posted by: THE ALLIES SHALL WIN at December 1, 2006 3:48 AM
AmericaninGermany I know you have doubts about it but in your heart you want to believe that what Fitzgerald is saying is correct. From your heart to God's ear !
Posted by: THE ALLIES SHALL WIN at December 1, 2006 3:50 AM
oh (sorry for all the posts friends!) but one more thing--I still believe if the PC elit do, by some satanic lying miracle push it thru against the wishes of the populance of Europe, even they will change their minds as Islam becomes more aggressive (Hammid Mir's little talk of nuclear dirty bombs in suitcases that he warns about). I am no fan of Hamid thats for sure but I think he is on to something when he talks about that stuff. Anwyay when that happens even the PCs will change their minds, either that or these PCS (modern day Chamberlins) will die quickly (as the original one did after signing with 'peace' with Hitler) to make way for a whole group of Churchills I bet.
Anyway Ive said my bit! cheers.
at December 1, 2006 3:54 AM
I lived in Turkey as a Christian missionary. You cannot be open about the fact you are a missionary. There is no difference in the Islamists and the Kemalists. They both persecute Christians for different reasons. You always hear about how some poor brave Turkish reporter goes to jail because he wrote something the government doesn't like. Well they are part of the problem. The press prints lies about Christians, "goes undercover" and joins Christian congregations to write articles exposing the Christian "agents" whatever that is. The fact is the government fears Christianity just as much as Islamists. They can't have a large segment of the population going around believing there is a moral code above their society which judges it. When we tried to buiild bridges to understanding they put up walls. The police are brutal. Their idea of police work is round up the usual suspects and torture everybody until someone confesses. You would not believe the barriers the government has put up to foil Christiians and churches. It is possible to worship and evangelize if you can jump through all the hoops and over the hurdles. But even then there is no guarantee that some Muslim or Kemalist cop with an axe to grind won't interfere or arrest you. Turkey should never be allowed into the EU.
Posted by: Theseus at December 1, 2006 7:27 AM
The problem with Europe (and the US) is the Welfare State. A high-tax welfare state discourages the tax-paying middle-class from reproducing (because every child is a large expense on top of having to pay taxes), while encouraging reproduction by the unproductive (since the Welfare State pays for the children's support).
This will only continue up to the point where the shrinking taxpayer base can no longer support the growing welfare recipient population. The end result is civil war when the welfare checks fail to arrive
Posted by: PapaBear at December 1, 2006 7:52 AM
How about admitting Turkey into the EU with the stipulation that Turkey, alone, must foot at least half the bill for all anti-terror measures in Europe?
Posted by: AsIf at December 1, 2006 10:20 PM
I'm not at all as sanguine as Hugh about Kemalism. It was not until Ataturk and his putsch for Turkishness that the Armenian Genocide occurred. But Hugh says nothing about the mass expulsion of the Greeks that occurred just after, running up to 1923. Hundreds of thousands of the relict Byzantine population were literally driven into the sea from east to the west. Their homes and possesions were all confiscated (in true Islamic fashion) and the churches--hundreds upon hundreds of them were next, razed to the ground, most of them dating from the 9th through the 12th centuries. I have read that Constantinople was 40% Orthodox Christian until the apotheosis of Ataturk and his "secularism". It seems like Turkey is a pit of vipers, scavenging and duplicitous, on auto-pilot.
Posted by: Emerson Twain at December 2, 2006 12:05 AM
Emerson Twain quoted
"I'm not at all as sanguine as Hugh about Kemalism. It was not until Ataturk and his putsch for Turkishness that the Armenian Genocide occurred. But Hugh says nothing about the mass expulsion of the Greeks that occurred just after, running up to 1923. Hundreds of thousands of the relict Byzantine population were literally driven into the sea from east to the west."
i totaly agree with you Emerson i have been saying the same thing on here as you its not just Huge who admires ataturk its lots of western people who admire ataturk even when Pope Benedit visited Turkey he payed tribute to the monument of ataturk i have lost some respect for the pope after seeing him pay tribute to ataturk the murderer of 2 million orthodox christians also in rome there are plans to build a statue of ataturk lots of armenians are protesting against it if the pope cares about the Ortohdox christians suffering in Turkey why would there be a statue of ataturk being built of Rome.
which makes me think when the ottomans took constantinople in the 15th century the crusaders and vatican did not help the byzantiums defeat the turks the Byzantiums where told if they wanted help in defeating the turks they would have to give up there orthodoxy and become catholic the byzantium emporer refused to do that and no help was given to the Greeks.
also the popes purpose to visit constantinople was to talk to the Patriarch of Constantinople to try and unite the orthodox church with the catholic church in my apinion I suspect its to try and make the orthodox church catholic i am not sure. My point is Orthodox christians do not want to give up there orthodoxy just like catholics dont want to give up catholicsm the pope should repsect that fact and concentrate on the suffering christians in Turkey not be trying to make orthodox christians catholic
Posted by: Greek Gurl at December 2, 2006 11:38 AM
ISLAMSFORLOSERS said
Question:Is it possible for a member of the EU to leave it? If so, I'd like to see at least some countries leave it.
I dont know islams4losers but i know that if Turkey Joins Eu then Cyprus and Greece better leave the EU to stop Turkey from migrating in Cyprus and Greece
Posted by: Greek Gurl at December 2, 2006 12:59 PM
Someone further up the line made this comment, but it bears re-iteration. Europe is already lost. EUROPE IS LOST. It has fallen under the weight of its own open-mindedness and tolerance, taken to their reductio ad absurdum.
Canada and the USA are not far behind.
Australia lags the pack, but is doing its damndest to catch up.
We are, all of us, opening the floodgates to those who will swamp us and destroy us. This is called multiculturalism and tolerance, opposition is called xenophobia, rascism, triumphalism, and any number of other pejoratives.
There is no solution but to retreat and regroup. For many of us this will entail learning new languages. I strongly and seriously recommend emigration to Argentina, Chile, or Uruguay. All three are virtually 99% white and Christian. Russia may be falling to Islamism as well, but Ukraine is so far secure and an option. Other nations may remain viable European enclaves as well, but these are where my hopes lie, and where I expect to end my days. It's only a question of when.
Posted by: TheGreyPiper at December 2, 2006 1:36 PM
Greek Gurl I totally agree with you, if Turkey does gain entry into the EU Greece and Cypress better get the hell out and fast.
I find it laughable how people do seem to believe Attaturk was anything other than a butcher. He made Turkey secular in name so that he can place his miltary in charge of the country without pressure from imam's.
Also for the people out there that think it is abdurd to say that we've lost our will to fight, get real. Look around you everywhere people are screaming and empowering their own enemies. People have turned blind to the dangers facing them simply because they won't allow themselves to believe what they see. One day there will be an awakening, but at the pace we are going it's going to be way to late, and Scotland will simply fill with mosques, like it or not.
Anyhow I have way more I'd like to write about this, but my wifes busting my chops to take the kids for dinner, take care everyone.
Niv
Posted by: niv at December 3, 2006 7:31 PM
OK I've got a minute, I've said this a dozen times here. We are in danger as mentioned by someone above, as we have forgotten about our religion, or birthrate has dropped far too low to compete with this invasion, and our secular and political correct beliefs have taken away our instinct to live.
We are up against an enemy who believes with their whole heart that they will go to heaven if they die for their cause, we are the ones who believe that we have one life to live, so enjoy it. It really is not any simpler to state, we want to live, they want to die.
It will take a lot of changes for us to fight this enemy, I unfortunately don't see us doing it any time soon.
Niv
Posted by: niv at December 3, 2006 7:46 PM
Hi AmericaninGermany
I agree with you. I like South America that it is so dominated by christians. But Im not ready to give up on Europe. unless they do wake up they are lost yes, but I believe there is a God and I think they will wake up like they did in WWII. It might cost alot of lives thanks to the rampant muslim mania and the PC's unthinking, idiotic appeasements but they, God willing, will wake up before London is declared a Caliphite and Europe part of the Umma -land. America has still a very small muslim percentage, but more than that, the Americans in the US are far more awake in general than in other western lands. Ellison and CAIR will soon be unveiled for what they are --just like that crowd of black suited COWARDS the Nation of Islam (you are cowards and you know it N.O.Islam).
Posted by: THE ALLIES SHALL WIN at December 4, 2006 11:00 AM
I believe we will wake up like we did in WWII, but I'm afraid that we're going to wake up too late.
During WWII the world was very different than it is today. There was no self loathing, there was no political correctness, and there was a community sense of the greater good. We have as modern societies torn down all of these thought processes and replaced them with the rights of an individual trump the rights of the many. These are not insurmountable obstacles to overcome, however they are huge obstacles that will take a lot for us to put those aside.
Does anyone think that in any other era a Pope would go and pray at a mass murders grave site? Imagine if the Pope went to pray at Hitler's grave, there would be outrage, but by only one group the Jews(and rightfully so). However in this upside down world Attaturk can have a prayer by a Christian Pope despite the atrocities committed by him against Christian Greeks and Armenians.
Sorry but we have a real long way to go if we're going to survive this.
Niv
Posted by: niv at December 4, 2006 1:21 PM
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