Our favorite troll, Naseem, on another thread, makes a good point, which this thread echoes. So far, there is no word of anything tangible that Benedict will take back with him when he departs Turkey tomorrow - no guarantees for religious freedom, no permits for the building of new churches or repair of existing ones, nothing. The bleak situation of Christians and other minorities will likely remain what they have been until now, unless ...

Benedict's visit must be seen not as an end in itself, but as an event that initiates a wider process, an awakening and mobilization of public opinion regarding the plight of these minorities in the Islamic world, generated by heightened public awareness. Now is the time for the relatively free peoples of the West to begin their own popular campaigns to champion the cause of their own co-religionists and the marginalized minorities in these lands with every means of public pressure possible.

Let us all resolve to speak up on behalf of those with no voice - as Benedict has done in these days (like good westerners, proud of their freedom, do)!

Posted by: templar at November 30, 2006 11:58 PM

I have fond memories of reading the Tribune coming back from the City on the train. Kass dances around the topic, but it’s a start. The biggest problem we’re struggling with is naming our enemy. I propose the following to help move the debate forward:

Whereas;

(1) Millions of otherwise good people identify themselves as Muslims because they do not really understand the core teachings of their religion; and
(2) I was terrified as a lad when a big bear chased me out of a campsite at night, and the West is not waging a war against bears; and
(3) The Qu’ran describes a hateful ideology that threatens to undermine our Constitution;

This struggle should be re-named The War Against the Qu’ran. Let the apologists defend its teachings.

Posted by: limes at December 1, 2006 12:11 AM

Makes one wonder how history would have turned out had the schism in the Church not occurred. Somehow, I don't see the Islamic plague spreading as far as it did. It worries me that history is repeating itself with some in the West fighting Islamania and sounding the warning while others scoff or impede. Is this another schism?

Posted by: ISLAMSFORLOSERS at December 1, 2006 12:20 AM

This is scary, because there is a good chance that it will happen.

Posted by: TheVoiceofTruth at December 1, 2006 12:20 AM

You know, at the end of the day Muhammadans have to threaten converts to Christianity because they know that if that didn't happen in fifty years there'd be half the Muslims there are now.

Push! Push!

Posted by: pneumatikon at December 1, 2006 12:34 AM

I am still optimistic though. I think Christianity will prevail in the end.

Posted by: EliasAlucard at December 1, 2006 12:35 AM

Let us all resolve to speak up on behalf of those with no voice - as Benedict has done in these days (like good westerners, proud of their freedom, do)!

Posted by: templar

Will we get a sympathetic ear and treatment in the New Duranty Times? Will we get on FOX which is 20% SOWdi-owned??

Posted by: germaninamerica at December 1, 2006 12:54 AM

There are a number of books about the genocide of the Armenians in Ottoman Turkey. If you only have time to read one book about it, I recommend the Burning Tigris, by Peter Balakian, since it covers the genocide under the sultan at the end of the 19th century, the genocide under the 'secular' Turkey's government post Ottoman, under Kemal Attaturk, the father of 'secular' Turkey, in the 20th century. It also gave a historical background of the Armenians.

Turkey should never be allowed into the EU. Their Islamic philosophy is the antithesis of democracy.

Like Balakian said in his book, unlike the Jewish holocaust by the Nazis which is still remembered until now even though when it was actually happening it didn't get much press in the US media, the Armenian genocide is totally forgotten in the West and the US, even though the American press were full of stories about the killing of the Armenians, including the New York Times! Many Americans actively participated in raising funds for the Armenians.

Posted by: jasmine at December 1, 2006 1:03 AM

Today Constantinople tomorrow Rome. Islamic websites are full of the supposed vision of Muhammad (akin to the Vision of Constantine, painted most memorably by Piero della Francesca in the Arezzo cycle), his vision and his prediction: first Rum (i.e. Byzantium) and then, Rome.

And Rome is what they have in mind. And Paris. And Madrid. And Berlin. And London.

And New York. And Los Angeles.

Seems fantastic. Cannot possibly be. But then who in 1970 could have imagined that the 15,000 Muslims in Holland would become by 2006 a million, and those million now formed a majority of the population in Rotterdam? Who could have foreseen 5-7 million Muslims in France? Threats to Danes from Danish imams? Shouts of "death to France" by Muslims in the midst of Paris, or "death to the English" and "Islam Will Rule" in the middle of London?

Not fantastic at all. The fantastic is the will to not see, the will to not believe, what is staring you in the face.

Posted by: Hugh at December 1, 2006 1:13 AM

Good point, Templar.

There are so many people who do not have the right to practice their religion and their plight should be known.

I'm gratified to see the Chicago Tribune print such an editorial, bully for them!

Posted by: atheling at December 1, 2006 1:21 AM

I read that during the Pope's visit to the blue mosque, he stood praying with one of the muslim leaders facing mecca.

http://www.iht.com/articles/2006/11/30/news/pope.php

Is this a sign of Catholic convergence with Islam - "We all worhip the same God" mentality???

The only consolation was that he was praying in silence, so I guess we don't really know what he was praying for.

Perhaps it was for Christianity to prevail over Islam, for the emancipation of Constantinople, for the unity of Christ's body - the Church, or for sanity to return to the West, and for the West to return to its Christian roots.

I really hope so, and that he too hasn't gone Dhimmi. Given what has been going on over the past few days, I'm not too optimistic. Either the Pope is playing taqiya or he has fallen into the fantasy of 'unity in diversity' that the rest of Europe swears by.

Posted by: GreekFrenchInfidel at December 1, 2006 2:00 AM

I have no doubt that what His Hoiness the Pope and His Holiness the Patrairch were praying for was nothing less than the conversion of the entire middle east. Anyway reading that article about how it would feel if all this was happening to the Catholic church in Rome, I think, brought it home for many people out there what we Eastern Orthodox feel everytime we think of Constantinople and the Hagia Sophia and the Christians in Turkey. By the way the article was obvioiusly 'pg' rated for it didnt go into detail of WHAT happened when the Ottomon Turks THE MUSLIMS took over.

QUOTE:
"There, I thought of the worshipers fearfully singing the liturgy as the city walls were breached, as the slaughter began, as a Christian empire that had stood for more than 1,000 years perished."

When the muslims entered they killed the very old praying immediately and took little boys and girls into slavery and child marriage. They raped women in the santuary in front of the families and cut off the heads of young men and they set fire to various relics.

Please note ALL this was allowed by their leader not because "it was common to raiding armies of that time" as some like to say but because IT IS ALLOWED FOR UNDER ISLAM'S rules of war as found in the Quran/hadith. Including the rapes. Most of you here are well enough informed to know this but I state it since there are many people surfing in who have no idea.

The praying Christians in the Hagia Sophia church were immediately announced as slaves according to ISLAMIC rulees and those the above are considered OKAY. TO you surfing by --understand that NO OTHER RELIGIOUS OR PHILOSPHICAL SYSTEM allows for such actions and those who carry them in other systems are acting against those system's rules.

“And all the married women (are forbidden unto you) save those (captives/slaves) whom your right hand possess....” Qur'an 4:24 Sex with slave girls permitted. Also 23:6 and 33:50.

“If ye fear that ye shall not be able to deal justly with the orphans, marry women of your choice, two or three or four; but if ye fear that ye shall not be able to deal justly (with them), then only one, or (a captive) that your right hand possess, that will be more suitable, to prevent you from doing injustice.”

----
THE FOLLOWING ARE SOME RULES OF JIHAD. ALL HADITH AND QURANIC SCRIPTURAL SUPPORT FOR EACH PRINCIPLE ARE LOCATED IN THE LINK at the bottom of this post from where this is taken:

What are some rules of jihad?
1. Besides being enslaved, women are subjected to sex with their new Muslim masters.
2. The same sexual abuse happened to women who were part of the four-fifths of the spoils of war. Jihadists usually practiced coitus interruptus as they raped their slave women.
3. In one tradition, women and children should not be killed (Bukhari, Jihad, nos. 3014-3105; Muslim nos. 4319-4320; Abu Dawud, no. 2662). But this makes economic sense, because the victors could sell them into slavery or enjoy more sexual license with them
4. However, in another tradition, the women and children of polytheists are permitted to be killed during nighttime raids when visibility is low.
5. The enemy may be killed, enslaved, ransomed, released freely, or beaten.
6. Men are allowed (or forced) to convert.
7. In Islamic war, old men who are polytheists may be killed.
8. Property may be stolen.
9. Fruit trees may be destroyed.
10. Three options are imposed on the conquered.

What happens to the spoils in jihad?

In the hadith collection edited by Bukhari, an entire section is called "The Book of Obligations of Khumus." This latter word means one-fifth of the spoils of war. So twenty percent goes to Muhammad or the State, and eighty percent goes to the soldiers.

Reference

http://answering-islam.org/Authors/Arlandson/jihad.htm

PS beware there are dishonest sources that say in jihad you cannot kill or rape --THESE sources are written by muslims to put a good face on their religion. BUT THE SCHOOLS OF ISLAMIC JURISPRUDENCE (INCLUDING THE SHIA SCHOOL) DISAGREE WITH THE SOCALLED 'MODERATE' STATEMENTS. --THE HADITH AND QURAN AND ISLAMIC SCHOOL DECISIONS BASED ON THE HADITH/QURAN ARE ALWAYS THE RULE AND LAW IN SHARIA OF ISLAM.

PPS for the stories of rape of young boys and girls (allowed in Islam under jihad and spoils of war-for slaves in Islam) and hadith/quran support are located here:
http://72.14.203.104/search?q=cache:7_BPJ0S-BicJ:www.atheistfoundation.org.au/islamwhitewash.htm+your+hand+possess+Quran+hadith+quotes&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=5

I warn you ahead of time that some of the stuff is
graphic --read only if you understand that and on an empty stomach (I am NOT kidding).

Sorry to throw this stuff at you surfers (the regulars here understand all this stuff) but the truth of what Islam really is about cannot be hid.

WE WILL SHOUT IT FROM THE ROOFTOPS.

Posted by: THE ALLIES SHALL WIN at December 1, 2006 2:49 AM

notes: correction--His Holiness the Pope...

also:
"Because of the misunderstanding and ignorance of Christianity, Muslims believe that Christians are polytheists, because they believe in a Triune God. Fundamentalists look at Jews and Christians and all non-Muslims as infidels who must be killed because they have no value as human beings and must be exterminated from the face of the earth." [1]

hence the above principles of my previous post mention polytheists --this includes Christians (which the people in Constantinople and the church of Hagia Sophia were).

[1] is from:
http://www.thespiritofislam.com/nyattack01.html

Posted by: THE ALLIES SHALL WIN at December 1, 2006 2:55 AM

"And Rome is what they have in mind. And Paris. And Madrid. And Berlin. And London."

The symbolism "Rome" at the time of Mohammed means now the entire West.

Posted by: remote_control at December 1, 2006 3:01 AM

This has been making the rounds in email - I don't know who the author is.

In case we find ourselves starting to believe all the anti-American sentiment and negativity, we should remember England's Prime Minister Tony Blair's words during a recent interview. When asked by one of his Parliament members why he believes so much in America, He said:

"A simple way to take measure of a country is to look at how many want in ... And how many want out."

Only two defining forces have ever offered to die for you:

1. Jesus Christ
2. The American G. I.

One died for your soul, the other for your freedom.

Posted by: CGW at December 1, 2006 6:12 AM

As much as I hate to give up any land to the Turks or give them any political victory, I think His Holiness the Patriarch of Constantinople needs to move to his dependancy in Salonica (Thessalonica), Greece. There he would be free of the ever annoying stipulations (500 years of annoying stipulations) the Turks place on him. He would be free to question the Turks' benevolence without fear of poison, usurption or the many other ways the Turks have rid themselves of Patriarchs in the past... .

Posted by: St. David, King of Georgia at December 1, 2006 7:10 AM

I do believe that Pope Benedict XVI simply preparing the main leadership of the Orthodox Church(s) for ful (with God's help )reuniting back into full communion with Rome as an Eastern Rite branch of the Catholic Church as well as preparing the leadership that in time they will have to move to Greece, Athens and set up headquarters there.

As far as what Pope Benedict was praying while in the mosque, it would not be suprising if he was praying for the Muslims to come back to full faith in God thru accepting Jesus Christ as Savior, to come home to the historic Christian faith.

Posted by: bigcatgirl13106 at December 1, 2006 9:40 AM

"Imagine the Vatican surrounded in a fiercely secular yet very Muslim Italy."

Now, that's a non-starter. It will either be firecely secular or it will be very Islamic, but not both because the forces that will make it very Islamic are deathly opposed to secular pluralism.

The former Mufti of Marseilles, currently running for the French presidency, and others like him, have their reformists' work cut out for them by 30+ years of Saudi Wahabbist/Salafist influence.
http://memri.org/bin/latestnews.cgi?ID=SD136806

Posted by: waterdragon52 at December 1, 2006 9:44 AM

Limes - I agree: this war will be fought and won with Politics, Polemics and 'Pologetics.

It is a war of ideas principally and the physical destruction could be reduced if we could mount a series of interconnected intellectual and spiritual assaults on dar al Islam.

No one thought the orthodox were much in number in Ukraine and Russia... all those former communist workers wear crosses of gold now. Some, maybe many Turkish would do the same if it weren't for the threat of physical harm.

Posted by: A_Plague_on_Both_Houses at December 1, 2006 10:02 AM

Shocking secrets of sharia 'courts'
01/12/06
By David Pilditch

A SHOCKING report today exposes the grip Islamic law now has on British society.

Honour killings, polygamy, child marriages and mutilation are revealed in the study by Islam expert Dr Patrick Sookhdeo, director of the Institute for the Study of Islam and Christianity.

The findings come after the Daily Express told yesterday how secret courts are meting out Islamic justice and creating a two-tier legal system.

The report outlines areas where hardline sharia law conflicts with Britain’s justice system and warns of attempts to include parts of Islamic law in British law.

It says: “Since sharia has some regulations which relate to non-Muslims such changes in British law could impinge on non-Muslims too. They would affect individual human rights of freedom of choice and the religious freedoms of both Muslims and non-Muslims.”

http://express.lineone.net/news_detail.html?sku=800

Read the lot. It is happening already.

Posted by: DP111 at December 1, 2006 10:18 AM

Imagine the Vatican/St Paul/Rheims, surrounded in a fiercely secular yet very Muslim Italy/Britain/France.

That does not require imagination. It is coming about in front of our eyes.

Posted by: DP111 at December 1, 2006 10:57 AM

I'm glad things like this are starting to appear in papers the Chicago Tribune. Yay Chicago!

None too early.

Posted by: mrsmomomoto at December 1, 2006 12:32 PM

In my earlier post, when I wrote that the Patriarch should move out of Constantinople to Salonica, I did not mean that as a concession of defeat. I was thinking of it more in terms of a retreat, regroup and advance into the city (eis ten polous=Istanbul).

I do believe that Pope Benedict XVI simply preparing the main leadership of the Orthodox Church(s) for ful (with God's help )reuniting back into full communion with Rome as an Eastern Rite branch of the Catholic Church as well as preparing the leadership that in time they will have to move to Greece, Athens and set up headquarters there.
-posted by: bigcatgirl13106 at December 1, 2006 09:40 AM

As things now stand, if the Patriach of Constantinople were to reunite with the the Roman Catholics, he would be going alone. Issues of heresy have not been adequately dealt with in the opinion of most Orthodox theologians and bishops. While he is the spiritual head and has a primacy of honor among the Orthodox, the Patriarch of Constantinople only has jurisdiction over a few Orthodox in Turkey and Greece. The Orthodox Church is collegial, not monarchical. Orthodox bishops and faithful will listen to him only so long as he believes and teaches the Christian faith handed to him.

I know a Japanese priest who visited Hagia Sophia. He began to loudly sing the Pascal Canon in Greek. The guards rushed in to see who was singing Christian hymns in their museum/mosque.
The priest began talking in Japanese to some fellow Japanese who were with him. The guards left mystified. As soon as they were gone, the priest began singing again. The guards came back, but still could not figure out who was singing Christian hymns in Greek. This went on until the priest had sung the entire Pascal canon (30-45 minutes).

I know an American priest who sang the Pascal service in the Hagia Sophia. When the guards protested, he told them to either arrest him or leave him alone. He kept singing and the guards opted to leave him alone.

Posted by: St. David, King of Georgia at December 1, 2006 5:59 PM

Robert I don't know how many times I've made this exact point on this site, I'm just glad to see that there are people out there that are aware of this atrocity.

The Orthodox Church has been under siege for centuries, and the hand we have been dealt in Constantinople can surely be dealt to the Vatican one day.

Thank you for posting this article.

Niv

Posted by: niv at December 1, 2006 9:22 PM

"the Patriarch should move out of Constantinople to Salonica"

from a post above.

Actually, there has been discussion of the Ecumenical Patriarchate moving to Mount Athos.

Athos, a mountain peninsula, is an autonomous monastic republic. The Greek government could facilitate the establiment of a vatican style area at the entrance to Athos where the Patriarchate would have full autonomy but unlike the monatic republic itself, this new Phanar would not be forbidden to women or lay people. Future Patriarchs could then be elected from the holy monks on the mountain.

Posted by: Provoslavni at December 1, 2006 11:33 PM

For more information on Mount Athos see:

http://www.monachos.net/monasticism/athos/

http://www.inathos.gr/athos/en/

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mount_Athos

Posted by: Provoslavni at December 1, 2006 11:36 PM

"do believe that Pope Benedict XVI simply preparing the main leadership of the Orthodox Church(s) for ful (with God's help )reuniting back into full communion with Rome as an Eastern Rite branch of the Catholic Church as well as preparing the leadership that in time they will have to move to Greece, Athens and set up headquarters there."

I am very glad that this was addressed earlier! The Orthodox wil never be eastern rite anything in the Latin Church. The Patriarch of Constantinople may have lifted the anathamas but the Russian church never has and it is mystifying to my why the press continues to refer to Bartholomew as the spiritual leader of all of Orthodoxy. We are too collegial for that type of talk, as much as we pray for the Greek church and its Patriarch. Know also that our "spiritual and actual head" is Jesus Christ. In Holy Orthodoxy the head of the church is Christ and her members are the body of which the Patriarch is a member, albeit a high ranking one, a leader and a servant.
As far as unity, the Pope in Rome would have to change so many things for that to happen, things that the Orthodox consider to be heretical. Not just the filioque, which they have really come a long way on actually. I am grateful he got his trip to Turkey done safely. But now he's gone back home and the problems for the Greek population there remain.
Blessed are they who are persecuted for my names sake!
Glory to God for all things!

Posted by: pravoslavna at December 2, 2006 12:21 AM

Hagia Sophia is still a church in my opinion and no one has a right to tell someone they cannot pray in a church. For millennia Muslims have been stealing churches synagogues and Hindu temples and palaces an example of this is taj mahal
http://voiceofdharma.org/books/htemples1/
it originally was an Indian Palace the Muslim conqueror took for a burial site in the Muslim invaders of India have destroyed countless shik and Hindu temples in the mosques on their sites. So is not surprising the forces of the Ottoman Empire have so badly damaged the Eastern Orthodox Church, telling the church it cannot keep a seminary opened to train priests is just another way of killing the Orthodox Church and making sure that there is no alternative for Muslims. I wonder how many Turks today if they're given a chance would return to their Orthodox Church roots. Perhaps the reason they do not because fanatics to kill them for leaving the cult of Islam. Funny thing so the marks of a cult are the worshiping of a dead leader a strict insistence on dogma i.e. saying what you can and can't eat who you associate with and regarding anyone else who is not the cult as sub human.and often threat of death if you leave the cult. That kind of sounds like Islam does not???!!in order for the Orthodox Church to grow in Turkey it needs to be able to stand up the Turkish government and finally tell at you do not have the right to control the church your occupier of our land, and the two halves of the church and the Catholic church and the Eastern Orthodox Church join it will have the strength, but over a billion Catholics in the world supporting it not even the government of Turkey is dumb enough to try and stand against that, especially if Turkey really wants any European economic union. The church really is broken into three parts the Eastern Orthodox, the Catholic Church, and the Church of England. For the two split off sectin parts of the world and Eastern Orthodox Church still has some strength but unfortunately in Muslim areas is dying out so need to go for a strength is and regain the strength to fight the Islamic onslaught the same as the Church of England its ceremony and history up the time that Henry VIII wanted a divorceand the Catholic Church would not give him one. He split the English branch of the Catholic Church off and form the Church of England with himself as its head so basically he had a church do as he wished i.e. grant him his divorce. Unfortunately a lot of people have forgotten their Christian roots like people in the Eastern Orthodox Church that turned to Islam and Allah and we are going to beet back the forces of Islam the church must become whole, and people need to return to their Christian roots and abandon culture of political correctness and the idea a multiculturalism there is nothing wrong with celebrating your heritage i.e. the way those of us who have Scottish ancestry do, what the music and Highland games and get-togethers that celebrate our rich Celtic heritag. But the police correct, among us write it off as coming from a bunch of dead white men and forget their heritage if you can remember the past and let itdefine who and what you are it would be that much harder to resist in advance of Islam or they remember who they are right back to Mohammad

Posted by: islamakapigeaters at December 2, 2006 3:28 AM

islamakapigeaters:

I wonder if you could possibly use paragraphs in your comments. Sometimes it's difficult to read what your saying because it's not broken up sufficiently and I'd like to be able to understand what you write better.

Thanks!

Posted by: atheling at December 2, 2006 4:22 AM

Pravoslavna,

Benedict has completely changed the debate from previous Popes. He has written that the sole condition for reunion "should be a return to the faith as defined by the Seven Ecumenical Councils" and all other differences (Purgatory, Immaculate Conception, differences over the definition of Original Sin, etc.) relegated to local custom.

He has also written that Uniatism has proven to be a mistake because it works more to disunity than to unity. There is truly hope with this Pope.

He understands that the current situation is critical and that Christianity is under assault from two vicious enemies: Islam and Secularism. If the time is not yet right for East and West to restore full communion, then at a minimum, we must have an ironclad and unbreakable alliance between Orthodox and Catholics.

Posted by: Provoslavni at December 2, 2006 11:37 AM

Christians worldwide have been brought low by God so that we may see the similarities among us rather than the differences, and that we may come together as one. Then he shall bless us and raise us up again.

Do not think that Christianity is dying, for Christ said his church shall last forever. Though many will be killed, they are blessed for it is written that those who die a martyr's death shall rise with Christ at his second coming and reign on earth for 1,000 years. (Revelation 20:4-6)

Posted by: Constantine at December 2, 2006 7:12 PM

Pravoslavni, All of this is better for another forum, so I will make my response brief. If all issues are worked out, and I doubt that the Immaculate conception would be accepted by the Orthodox as a local custom; we still have the a huge issue with the Vicar of Christ. Ultimately the two churches look at their bishops and the church hierarchy differently.
I think that unity will happen one day. Glory to God that it is soon. We face grave danger. The crescent is best served as a roll.

Posted by: pravoslavna at December 3, 2006 2:13 AM

Here's the deal for east-west rapproachment:

1) Revert to the pre-filioque canon. Neither side should have any objection to using a canon that both used for 1000 years.
2) Stipulate that the exact relational dynamics of the trinity, beyond those defined in the creed, are not dogmatic and are open to speculation by private theologians. This shall remain the case (no ecumenical council shall make any declaration on these issues) for 1000 years. Thus, individual christians are free to continue with a prefered theological approach, as none is binding.
3) The pope becomes "primus inter pares" and willingly relinquishes the most difficult (to the East) prerogatives of the papacy, including infallibility. The Orthodox refrain from denying claimed roman prerogatives in exchange for Rome making disallowing their use. THe church moves back to ecumenical councils being the only sure source of doctrinal ajudication. As with the filioque, both parties can continue believing what they will about the status of the papacy, but the practices both acknowledge as licit are the same.

In essence, this provides a restart, taking the state of the disputed items back to their position pre-schism, uniting the faithful in practice, and leaving future development to the holy spirit.

Posted by: mountainecho at December 4, 2006 12:18 AM

Pravoslavna,
Re: "we still have the a huge issue with the Vicar of Christ. Ultimately the two churches look at their bishops and the church hierarchy differently"

This issue can be resolved by Orthodox accepting the Primacy of Rome as existed in the first 1000 years.

This primacy is clearly indicated in St. Irenaeus' "Against Heresies" (3:3:2): "With [the Church of Rome], because of its superior origin, all the churches must agree... and it is in her that the faithful everywhere have maintained the apostolic tradition" (written in 189 AD).

The First Council of Constantinople (AD 381) declared strongly that Roman primacy was already established and in AD 440 Saint Leo the Great more clearly articulated the extension and limits of papal authority, promulgating edicts and in councils his right to exert "the full range of apostolic powers that Jesus had first bestowed on the apostle Peter". It was under Pope Saint Leo that the bishop of Rome was acclaimed in the 28th Canon of the Council of Chalcedon in 451 as "speaking with the voice of Peter". It was this same Council that established the bishop of Constantinople a primacy of honour second only to that of the Bishop of Rome, because "Constantinople is the New Rome". All Orthodox should accept this.

For its part, Rome, while maintaining its rightful universal primacy, must give up all claims of "universal immediate jurisdiction". It must also reject the false idea that the Pope is the successor to St. Peter in a unique sense not true of any other bishop.

They must also abandon any fantasies of personal infallibility. There's actually an escape hatch here the Pope can use. Infallibility was declared as being only when the Pope speaks ex-cathedra but never defined what conditions are necessary for a statement to be such. As a Cardinal, Ratzinger actually suggested that a papal proclaimation might only meet definition of being ex cathedra when a Pope speaks on behalf of the Bishops in an ecumenical council... food for thought.

However, regardless of historical differences, both East and West must make every effort to unity since the current world situation is critical. In fact, I suspect that the great persecutions of both Islam and Communism are retribution for our disunity. God sometimes lets the cup of iniquity get filled so that we may come to repentance.

Posted by: Provoslavni at December 4, 2006 12:43 AM