| FrontPageMag.com | By Robert Spencer | By Hugh Fitzgerald | Books | Jihad Watch | Robert Spencer | Islam 101 | Qur'an Blog |  |
|
|
||||||||||
|
|
Stella L. Jatras sounds a warning:
It is certainly no surprise that "Sharia law is spreading as authority wanes" in Britain, as reported in The Telegraph (UK) of 29 November. All the signs of this eventuality were there. Are we ignoring those same signs in this country?Today in Britain there are more practicing Muslims than there are practicing Anglicans, the religion that saw Britain through two world wars. English history and culture are slowly disappearing. The Observer of 4 November 2001 reported a statement by Omar Bakri, the jihad leader formerly based in Britain: "We will replace the Bible with the Koran." A demonstration held outside of British Parliament some years ago carried signs that read, "Islam. Our religion today, your religion tomorrow." Banks in Britain no longer give out piggy banks to customers for fear of offending the Muslim community. Melanie Phillips provides harrowing details of the transformation of Britain in her book Londonistan, about which jihad expert Steve Emerson writes, "Londonistan is one of the most compelling books you will ever read on the ascendancy of Islamic fundamentalism, violence and intimidation in the West."
Islam has been further spread in Britain with the help of Bonnie Prince Charlie, who has introduced more Islamic studies into their schools. This is ironic, since Queen Elizabeth and her heirs have the title "Defender of the Faith," i.e., Anglicanism. In his commentary, "Is Prince Charles a Convert to Islam?," Daniel Pipes writes, "In a 1997 Middle East Quarterly article titled 'Prince Charles of Arabia,' Ronni L. Gordon and David M. Stillman looked at evidence that Britain's Prince Charles might be a secret convert to Islam." They found a good deal in that evidence that was compelling.
It appears that the metamorphosis from Christianity to Islam in Britain is happening quickly -- faster than anyone could ever have imagined.
Some historical background can be found in Robert Spencer's book entitled The Politically Incorrect Guide to Islam (and the Crusades), which is an excellent account of what we should know about Islam and what we face as Christians. Chapter nine of the book is entitled, "Islam--Spread by the Sword? You Bet." To that I say, "Why do you think there is a sword on the flag of Saudi Arabia?" The renowned historian Bat Ye'or has also written extensively on the transformation of non-Muslim societies into Islamic societies. Her book The Decline of Eastern Christianity under Islam from Jihad to Dhimmitude should be required reading in Britain today. The word, "Dhimmitude," is defined in The Jerusalem Post, of 2 January 1997, as "the Arabic-root term to identify the dehumanized condition of Christians and Jews under the humiliating domination of Moslem power." Is this then to be the legacy the British, Europeans in general, and we in America leave our children and grandchildren if we continue down the path of self-destruction? What ever happened to "Onward Christian Soldiers"?
Don't think that what is happening in Britain, France (which, I might add, is a basket case, pretending that they do not have problems with their Muslim youth), and all over Europe cannot happen in America. Even former Secretary of State Colin Powell once remarked that the U.S. should bring in more clerics, more teachers and more journalists from Islamic nations, without ever suggesting that such new immigrants be screened for jihadist sentiments. There are public schools in California that require students learning about Islam to recite verses from the Koran, dress as Muslims, state their own jihad and pray to Allah (Washington Times, 16 January 2002). Schools throughout the United States provide prayer rooms for Muslim students during their one month of Ramadan, while for decades judges have told us that our own Christian children cannot even bend their heads to say a prayer over their school lunches. It appears that Christ is out of our schools – and Muhammad is in.Can Islamization and dhimmitude happen here? A Washington Post article of 15 November 2001 entitled “Bountiful, Blessed Month” reported that the 35 children of the Clara Muhammad School in Southeast Washington began their classes with the reading of the Koran followed by the Pledge of Allegiance. During the Pledge students recited: “One nation under Allah, indivisible, with justice and liberty for all, inshallah [Allah willing]." Is this a minor difference? Perhaps not. Daniel Pipes has noted that “the ambition to take over the United States is hardly a new one. The first Islamic missionaries from abroad arrived in the 1920s and unblushingly declared, 'Our plan is, we are going to conquer America.' Such hopes have become commonplace in recent years." In Hamtramck, Michigan the noise ordinance was amended to allow the Islamic call to prayer to sound over loudspeakers at several points during the day.
Meanwhile, Muslim power in the U.S. will continue to grow. Muslims in Michigan can thank former Republican Senator Spencer Abraham for their exceedingly high numbers. In his failed bid for re-election, Senator Abraham stated that if reelected he would increase the quota for bringing in more Muslims into the United States. A convert to Islam, Democrat Keith Ellison of Minnesota has become the first Muslim to be elected into Congress.
And while Muslim influence grows, anti-terror efforts wane. Was the recent high-profile incident of imams being taken off a US Airways flight and now threatening to sue the airline merely a dry run, a test of our homeland security at airports? Or was it an attempt to end scrutiny of Muslims in airports? By playing the part of the victim, was it an effort to intimidate airline security into giving them a pass on future flights by officials not wanting to be accused of racial profiling?
Sounds plausible!
-------------------------------------
Sources:
"Sharia law is spreading as authority wanes""In England, there are more practicing Muslims than Anglicans"
"We will replace the Bible with the Koran"
"Is Prince Charles a Convert to Islam"
"Piggy banks 'offend' UK Muslims"
"Bountiful, Blessed Month" Posted on Free Republic but entire commentary not there
Posted by Robert at December 2, 2006 4:32 PM
Print this entry
| Email this entry
| Digg this
| del.icio.us
all i can say is that the more time passes, the bigger the backlash will be
cannot say we haven't warned them
Posted by: StillFedUp![[TypeKey Profile Page]](http://www.jihadwatch.org/dhimmiwatch/nav-commenters.gif)
at December 2, 2006 4:47 PM
I think "Onward Christian Soldiers" is a perfectly fine hymn, but not so much if taken literally.
My question for Modern AmURica is, "how many people do we have left, who actually believe that Patrick Henry's words are true and admirable?"
I think most of the Western World, having forgotten true oppression in favor of oppressions like "No Homosexual Marriage," and "Equal Pay for Equal Work," would choose lack of liberty and life, over death.
Posted by: Wrymouth at December 2, 2006 4:50 PM
Please listen to this America and pay heed.
On an off subject matter, has anyone thought of challenging the Saudi flag at US government functions as unconstitutional? After all, if contains a religous message which no other flag that I know of does.
Posted by: schwaben at December 2, 2006 4:52 PM
They [Europe] abandoned Christianity, so Islam is coming for them. They only have themselves to blame as far as I'm concerned.
Posted by: EliasAlucard at December 2, 2006 5:32 PM
This could leave America alone as the main western Christian hub. The truth is that those of Christian faith in America are a lot more commited then what is seen over in Europe to begin with.
Posted by: bigcatgirl13106 at December 2, 2006 5:39 PM
In restrospect, 9-11 may well have proven a mistake on the part of the Islamofascists as not too many Americans are likely to forgive Islam for that horror and I rather doubt that most Americans want to be part of something that behaves as abominably as that (and that was PRETTY DAMNED ABOMINABLE!!!!).
Unsurprisingly, Islam fares poorly in the polls in America, with as few as 19% of those polled responding that they have a positive opionion of Islam.
As long as the polls stay like that, America should be OK. Muslims can NOT force us to LIKE Islam (especially when there's so little to like about it--scratch that, there's NOTHING TO LIKE ABOUT ISLAM!!!!!!!!!), and if Americans dislike something it's unlikely to make much headway into the mainstream.
I realize that, however, is small reassurance.
Posted by: pythagoras at December 2, 2006 5:50 PM
What utter tripe.
Christian (Anglican, Roman Catholic, Presbyterian, Methodist) 71.6%, Muslim 2.7%, Hindu 1%, other 1.6%, unspecified or none 23.1% (2001 census)
Believe it or not the British Police are still capable of arresting people. The British Army is kicking Terry's ass and most of us will enjoy Christmas, even if it does mean time with the family, and not blind worship of a book.
Britain did not win its part of either World Wars because of faith, it won because it was industrialised and exceptionally well connected.
If Sharia law is operating in Britain, then the test will be the reaction of the courts to the first Imam who orders a limb lopped off.
That Imam will need to be sat on the bench in a robe and wig, because he would be imprisoned under our current "waning authority".
Posted by: Mert at December 2, 2006 5:55 PM
"This could leave America alone as the main western Christian hub. The truth is that those of Christian faith in America are a lot more commited then what is seen over in Europe to begin with."
Not only that -- perhaps it's time for us to throw off the comforting yoke of fantasy that Europe is really our ally. While it can't be denied that Europe is our political, religious, and social ancestor -- she has been in a nearly perpetual state of warfare against us since America's founding 230 years ago, and never more so than during the last century during the World Wars I & II.
I don't want Europe to become a newly vanquished suburb of Riyadh. But who would have imagined that after America's victory in the Cold War (fought and paid for by the American Taxpayer) we'd see ALL of Europe's governments wallowing the most corrupt communistic pacifist muck a mere two decades later!? What was it all for?
They are clearly not our allies, and only act the part when their bacon is already sizzling in the fires they've created.
Communism. Nazism. And now a rejuvenated Islamism, paid for by immense transfers of Western Wealth (America too) but nurtured in the socialist nests created for them by the insane projects of cradle to grave socialism -- the perfect milieu for a parasitic culture of annihilation, genocide, and hegemony to nurse and coddle her Muslim Minions.
at December 2, 2006 6:04 PM
Mert, I think the point of the post is to indicate the direction that things are going and the end result if nothing is done to change this direction. Of course extreme instances of Sharia will be pounced on now: It is only the nose of the camel we are seeing in the tent now. The body comes later, unless we change.
Personally, I enjoy seeing the left being confronted with a religion which is actually homophobic, misyoginistic and fundamentalist. The left are confident and aggressive when it comes to confronting Christianity, which they pretend is all of these things. But when it comes to a real threat to their program they turn to mush.
The way this episode illustrates the fundamental weakness of the leftist ideology is one of the silver linings I'm always looking for.
Posted by: Brett_McS at December 2, 2006 6:15 PM
Leftists are evil (yes, I mean that).
Posted by: EliasAlucard at December 2, 2006 6:21 PM
Leftists are evil (yes, I mean that).
Posted by: EliasAlucard
I second that.
As for america being the last bastion of christianity I don't know. Sure its way better off than europe but far too many adhere to protestant sects who hate catholicism and orthodoxy as they believe reason has no part in faith. too many sympathize with muslims and see them as allies in the culture wars. I hate leftists for splitting nations. We should be united in our fight against the poison that is Islam.
Posted by: pissedoffcanadian at December 2, 2006 6:44 PM
The english don't care if the churches are closed down, they don't attend church services anyway. Only time the english will worry about the muslims is when the pubs begin to be shut down by the muslims.
at December 2, 2006 6:45 PM
Your silver lining is my untrue propaganda.
Posted by: Mert at December 2, 2006 6:48 PM
If i needed an example of cheap British bashing , then here it is:
The english don't care if the churches are closed down, they don't attend church services anyway. Only time the english will worry about the muslims is when the pubs begin to be shut down by the muslims.
And that ignorant post only saw the light of day because Jatras had a brain fart
at December 2, 2006 7:00 PM
Today in Britain there are more practicing Muslims
than there are practicing Anglicans, the religion
that saw Britain through two world wars. English
history and culture are slowly disappearing. The
Observer of 4 November 2001 reported a statement by
Omar Bakri, the jihad leader formerly based in
Britain: "We will replace the Bible with the Koran."
The falling away / apostasy is described in 2 Thessalonians as a precondition for the appearance of the antichrist, then the "day of the Lord".
They may well "replace the Bible with the Koran", but it will doom them, if they do.
Posted by: Xaragma at December 2, 2006 7:45 PM
The left may be evil, but it is merely a reaction to the intemperate, uptight, authoritarian evil of the Right.
Both the Left and the Right (as it is constituted today) are the epitomy of evil, and nothing could be more conservative and right wing than Islam.
Oh how I yearn for the good old days when being a Conservative was honorable, common sensed and tolerant.. not the self righteous idiocy of this era.
Todays so called conservatives are little more than jackbooted white shirted fascists, not guardians of western values to choose between them and the red shirts of Marxists or the green and yellow shirts of the Islamists is no choice at all..
Problem is this, if you bozo's don't grow a brain and find some common sense.. the muslims will indeed win and own not only Europe but America.
Posted by: Nariz at December 2, 2006 7:45 PM
A person named "Stephen Dion" has just been elected as the Liberal (or make that so-called Liberal) leader of the Party of Canada. He's Catholic and from Quebec. He has backing from Chretien (Dion is an ol' buddy of Chretien and family -- enough said?)
Chretien at the Liberal Convention in Montreal delivered a speech, and could not resist a swipe at Stephen Harper, our Conservative Prime Minister(Chretien is utterly disgusting.) Dion is viciously anti-Israel, anti-American.
I happened to run across an article which mentioned that a group (supporting Dion) were praying at the Liberal Convention -- I thought, hmmm....Catholics at prayer during a political convention??!! How odd. I then read the complete article...Well, of course, it wasn't Catholics at prayer, it was Muslims...They were praying for a Dion victory. Does that tell you something?
Dion has been pictured (as I recall) wearing one of those Arafat scarves. yeah, he's pro-terrorist. Enough said.
Posted by: J.S. at December 2, 2006 7:57 PM
It sure looks like democracy is dying in the West-faster in some places than others-but dying nonetheless. Due to the dismal leadership the West currently suffers from Islam continues to swallow more and more of the world like some giant snake, eroding everybody's rights in the process. Unless our so-called leaders start labeling the enemy and take concrete steps to fight that enemy we will all be doomed to live in a mindless ummah worshipping Illah, be killed by Illah's minions or have dictatorships replace our current rotting democracies. None of these options are good but they will be the only ones left if things continue on their current course.
Posted by: ISLAMSFORLOSERS at December 2, 2006 8:02 PM
The Socialist Presidential Candidate in France, Mme. Royal, just launched her campaign...
In the US, Candidates typically start such a thing in everywhere America, in Iowa or New Hampshire -- where did Mme. Royal start her itinerary? She went straight to the gravitational center of France today:
Beirut.
Posted by: jsla at December 2, 2006 8:23 PM
"They [Europe] abandoned Christianity, so Islam is coming for them. They only have themselves to blame as far as I'm concerned."
The level of argument here is breath-takingly naive. Is that why Islam is coming for the Jews, too, because they rejected Christianity? This is a matter of politics and ideology as much as, if not more than, religion. A secularist anti-Islamist can appeal to his own beliefs with just as much credibility as a Christian.
Posted by: JFGR at December 2, 2006 8:45 PM
Islam will not be able to take over the industrialized democracies of Europe or America. It all boils down to economics.
‘Carrying’ costs (birth, schooling, medical, retirement, end-of-life) for native Europeans and Muslims are roughly equal. But Europeans have a roughly one standard deviation IQ advantage over the new immigrants. The social welfare systems of Europe evolved around the output of the native workers, which has historically been high and has allowed a comfortable existence which is now expected by Europe’s citizenry.
The average immigrant, even assuming a strong work ethic (a bad assumption per Fjordman’s Norwegian unemployment report), will not be as productive as the natives and will be unable to fund the benefit structure that he is supposed to fit into.
A 3% burden on the system may be sustainable, but we can see how France’s (15%?) Muslim population is straining the budget. Business owners and wealthy individuals are leaving France due to draconian tax rates (over 90% in some cases). The governments will default on social obligations long before Muslims achieve a voting majority.
Try telling granny that she doesn’t get a retirement check, or can’t go to the hospital, after she’s been paying into the system for fifty years. Its going to be ugly, and undemocratic, and really unpleasant if you belong to a demographic that is seen as being responsible for the breakdown.
at December 2, 2006 9:08 PM
@JFGR:
It's not a naive argument at all. If I cared enough I'd go into detail about it, right now though, I'll just play Street Fighter Alpha 3 instead.
Posted by: EliasAlucard at December 2, 2006 9:54 PM
"The english don't care if the churches are closed down, they don't attend church services anyway. Only time the english will worry about the muslims is when the pubs begin to be shut down by the muslims."
Posted by: callmeinfidel
"If i needed an example of cheap British bashing , then here it is:
The english don't care if the churches are closed down, they don't attend church services anyway. Only time the english will worry about the muslims is when the pubs begin to be shut down by the muslims.
And that ignorant post only saw the light of day because Jatras had a brain fart."
Posted by: Mert
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
As a Canadian who was born in England, I don't care if the British finally revolt against muslims over the Anglican Church, pubs, pork pie or British bulldogs, just as long as they revolt over something and don't allow
This royal throne of kings, this scepter'd isle,
This earth of majesty, this seat of Mars,
This other Eden, demi-paradise,
This fortress built by Nature for herself
Against infection and the hand of war,
This happy breed of men, this little world,
This precious stone set in the silver sea,
Which serves it in the office of a wall,
Or as a moat defensive to a house,
Against the envy of less happier lands,
This blessed plot, this earth, this realm, this England.......
to disappear from the face of the earth.
at December 2, 2006 10:14 PM
JihadWatch.org is where we come to have fun. To fight.
* 33:21 ** 33:21 ** 33:21 ** 33:21 ** 33:21 ** 33:21 ** 33:21 ** 33:21 ** 33:21 ** 33:21 *
DhimmiWatch.org is where we go to surrender, to submit, to Islam. To give up.
It's a matter of time sequence, that's all.
Posted by: Alarmed Pig Farmer at December 2, 2006 10:25 PM
Right now, leftist mentality, and not just a leftist party, controls Britain and has for quite some time. The right are on the fringe, no power, and very little influence. The result of this is that islam is quickly being allowed to push in and push Christianity out, simply by playing the race/creed canard that the Left created.
The solution to this problem, and virtually every other social problem is to go to the Right. What I have learned in this world is that two things can fix any problem: Conservatives and duct tape.
Posted by: August22
at December 2, 2006 10:50 PM
Communism. Nazism. And now a rejuvenated Islamism, paid for by immense transfers of Western Wealth (America too) but nurtured in the socialist nests created for them by the insane projects of cradle to grave socialism -- the perfect milieu for a parasitic culture of annihilation, genocide, and hegemony to nurse and coddle her Muslim Minions.
Like millions of other Americans, my roots are in Europe and I don't want to see it swallowed whole by barbarian hordes of muslim swine. But I resent the hell out of mainstream European antipathy for America and Americans. For over fifty years, American military might protected Europe and its citizens from Soviet communism. We, the American taxpayers, helped to pay for that protection. There is little or no gratitude from Europeans for our role in WWII, and abolutely none for keeping the Soviets out of Europe during the Cold War. While we were playing the unappreciated role of guardian of Europe, the Europeans saved billions on defense and military spending and instead created a behemoth, albeit fragile, social welfare system that requires a steady flow of new blood to be sustained.
I don't think Europe is a true ally to America any more. The seeds for Eurabia were sown many years ago and it has almost reached fruition. I believe today's European elites are as loyal to the concept of Eurabia as were its original architects. As for us, America, we were just convenient dupes and they don't need us any more, or so they think.
at December 2, 2006 10:54 PM
The Islamization of Europe is the final phase of a process that has been going on since the French Revolution. Indeed it began with the Reformation and the Enlightenment which has culminated in the full secularization of Europe. This abandonment of Christendom for secularism has opened the door to militant Islam.
Since the nations of Europe are no longer ideologically Christian but secular, they view all religions as equal. This is the weakness that Islam is exploiting. The only way for Europe to save itself is to abandon the false cult of secular democracy and return to its Judeo-Christian roots.
Another aspect of the failure of secularism is that its advocates for the most part assume that not having a faith commitment is the same as being free to see life objectively. That’s simply not the case. It only disguises thier prejudices under a blanket of supposed neutrality. These secularists honestly believe that they are fair-minded, treating an alien entity, the Islamic world, with a respect they withhold from Christianity.
As G.K. Chesterton put it: "Those who believe in nothing will fall for anything."
Posted by: Provoslavni at December 2, 2006 11:16 PM
ImNoDhimmi, where did that poem come from?
Posted by: Alarmed Pig Farmer at December 2, 2006 11:44 PM
ImNoDhimmi, where did that poem come from?
Posted by: Alarmed Pig Farmer at December 2, 2006 11:44 PM
I'm not ImNoDhimmi, but it's from Shakespeare's Richard II.
Poor Richard II, to have to share a name with Richard I and Richard III. How does one make a name for oneself with competition such as that?
Posted by: CJ at December 3, 2006 12:00 AM
Thanks, CJ, I should have given The Bard credit when I quoted him !
Posted by: ImNoDhimmi at December 3, 2006 12:04 AM
"The level of argument here is breath-takingly naive. Is that why Islam is coming for the Jews, too, because they rejected Christianity? This is a matter of politics and ideology as much as, if not more than, religion. A secularist anti-Islamist can appeal to his own beliefs with just as much credibility as a Christian."
Posted by: JFGR
---------
Your secularism is what started the Eurabia process. Before secularism Europe was Judeo-Christian and islam was almost nonexistent in Europe.
Posted by: EliasAlucard at December 3, 2006 12:22 AM
Mert:
"The English dont care if churches are closed down,they dont attend church services anyway."
REALLY? There will be 200/250 at my church this morning!
"The English didn't win their part of the war because of faith"
King George V1 called the nation to prayer on several occasions. We had a godly King!
Many of us care deeply, but we have idiot leaders.
With 'friends' like you, who needs enemies!
Oh, and by the way, some of us don't waste our time in pubs, you only hear about the morons who do.
I believe that Britain is being judged, and America will will not escape either.
at December 3, 2006 12:48 AM
while England might become Muslim I highly doubt Scotland which has been Protestant or Catholic will change is not a climate that Muslims would enjoy I understand it getz very cold in the winter time and no Scot will give up his whiskeyso England goes Muslim I think to see Scotland declare independence after all . Unfortunately in the USA we elected an anti-Israeli pro-Islam government come January and in less to watch it and keep pressure on our elected officials including the new Muslim congressmanas and the speaker of the House the next two years you might be in trouble all we have to do is look in at how pro-Muslim the incoming Democrats and as long as we can keep pressure our elected officials orall the Muslims only have to do is remember in two yearsthere is a presidential election and a the House and Senate a third of the seats are up for vote and we need to get conservative vote out. Because in an election the past 40 years probably only 30% of the eligible voters vote. The danger is if polling places are At mosque Muslims could be able to affect an election and if they can do thatthey might be able to elect a enough Muslim and pro-Muslim Congresscritters and Senatecamels(I would call them senateboars but muslims dont like pigs) like to have some of our female elected officials live in Saudi Arabia six months of the Muslim woman and see just how much support there would be for Islamic law in the Koran becoming a law here in the USA.
Posted by: islamakapigeaters at December 3, 2006 2:31 AM
What utter tripe.
Christian (Anglican, Roman Catholic, Presbyterian, Methodist) 71.6%, Muslim 2.7%, Hindu 1%, other 1.6%, unspecified or none 23.1% (2001 census)
Posted by Mert
You should take a closer look at the demographics before you totally dismiss the above article. Yes, those may be the current demographic statistics - but those statistics speak for the present - not for the future. For example, I know that in France, there may be 10% muslim population at the moment, but the young Muslims form about 30% of the 'young' population. So if you do the Math, given the high fertility rates of Muslims, both in France and I'm sure in England as well, you don't need to be a genius to understand that Europe INCLUDING THE UK is well on its way to Sharia.
Posted by: GreekFrenchInfidel at December 3, 2006 2:43 AM
The level of argument here is breath-takingly naive. Is that why Islam is coming for the Jews, too, because they rejected Christianity? This is a matter of politics and ideology as much as, if not more than, religion. A secularist anti-Islamist can appeal to his own beliefs with just as much credibility as a Christian.
Posted by: JFGR
If Europeans had stuck to their Christian culture, instead of to the mindless, nonsensical mulicultural relativism that now engulfs much of the continent, they would have been in a far better position to understand and prevent the threat that Islam poses - if people only took a look at the history of Christians under Islam they would have understood that. But under the new pseudo-religion of multiculturalism - everyone is all the same, no one poses a threat, et voila, before you know it you have an unstoppable trojan horse in your midst.
Posted by: GreekFrenchInfidel at December 3, 2006 2:49 AM
britain is no where near being islamized they make up just a little above 2% of the population.yes people here are beginning to see islam as evil as it is.the sharia law thing is a big hoax.im not surprised telegraph carried it.they always carry the wierd news.thats why in the next elections i will be voting bnp to make a stand on islam that labour has not.bnp is the only hope to put britain back on track.the signs are there.more people are voting right wing parties.we are not lost.we just regain our momentum.the bright future is ahead.
Posted by: world4christ at December 3, 2006 2:55 AM
british people now know that we need to stamp out islam.our situation is not near that of france.immigration from pakistan is over.we have blacks,caribbean,hindus,poles,so muslims are nowhere being the force in britain.only foreigners believe this.i live in the uk and am telling everyone on this site.yes even if they do make noise about certain issues.anti dhimmitude in britain has started we can now even call islam a wicked faith in their faces.france is doomed but britain is not even close to doomed. nevertheless we must act to stamp out islam from britain..its only a matter of time before we do.
Posted by: world4christ at December 3, 2006 3:07 AM
The english don't care if the churches are closed down, they don't attend church services anyway. Only time the english will worry about the muslims is when the pubs begin to be shut down by the muslims.
I totally agree , i`ve said this for 30 odd years.
The British put up with all sorts of nonsense
and the number who actually vote verify this,but
the s**t really will hit the fan if you try and
take thier beer , cigarettes , music , sport ,
television or magazines from them...you wait and see !
at December 3, 2006 3:27 AM
I just finished reading Jesus and Muhammad, by Mark Gabriel. M.Gabriel has an interesting background. He grew up in Egypt and had memorized the whole Qur'an by age 12. By age 18 he graduated from Al-Azhar high school having memorized more than 5000 hadiths. He then went to Al-Azhar University for a Bachelor's degree in Islamic studies, and graduated second in a class of six thousand students. He went on to get a doctorate from Al-Azhar, and began to work there as a professor.
He got into serious trouble at Al-Azhar by asking questions about Islam that made collegue professors think him an apostate. As a result the Egyptian government arrested him and tortured him to get him to confess he had left the fold. Ironically, at that point he was not an apostate. He was merely asking the kinds of questions about Islam that any humane and thoughtful person would ask.
He says one thing the torturers did was to put him in a vat or silo of water with rats in it, and then seal the top so that it was dark. He was left there over night, and the rats crawled over him but did not bite. He was tortured in various other ways, and finally let out, despite never having confessed. At that point he still wasn't an apostate.
But he was angry at Islam, and after being let out, he stopped participating in public religious observances and stayed at home with his parents and family, and started working in his father's business. As had been the case for a while, he was struggling to find God and started looking into Buddhism and Hinduism (which he had learned something about while studying for his bachelor's), but decided those religions weren't for him.
For a year or so he was struggling with his faith, and had a persistant headache. At a certain point he came across a Bible and borrowed it; apparently it was the first time he'd carried one. He was 35 years old.
He took it home and read the New Testament all night long. Each event and saying in Jesus' life was instantly compared in M.Gabriel's mind with incidents in Muhammad's life. M.Gabriel says his mind became like a computer during this comparison, because he knew Islam so thoroughly by heart that there was no effort in trying to recall any detail of it. By 4 am his headache, which he had had for months, had gone away. He slept well for the first time in a long time. He had become a Christian.
For a long time he told no one, accept the person who had given him the Bible, who jumped for joy. Gabriel tried to find a Christian church that would accept him in Egypt, but several priests rejected him, for fear the Egyptian authorities would find out. Finally he found a very hidden little church that let him in quietly.
Eventually, he blurted out to his family that he had become Christian, and his father, hearing this, pulled out a handgun and fired five shots at him. M.Gabriel doesn't explain how it was that none of these bullets found their mark. Perhaps his father didn't really want to succeed. In any event, a few days later he left Egypt.
He changed his name to Mark Gabriel and went on to add to the doctorate he had in Islamic studies a master's in world religions, and a second doctorate in Christian education.
Jesus and Muhammad is M.Gabriel's detailed comparison of the actions/sayings of Christ with those of Muhammad. In several fascinating chapters Gabriel juxtaposes passages from the Qur'an with passages from the New Testament. One need not follow Gabriel in his Christian faith in order to benefit greatly from his comparisons of these two global strands of cultural DNA. Understanding the differences between the "DNA" of Islam and that of Christianity permits one to understand a lot about the social institutions of the West on the one hand and of the Middle East on the other.
As a regular Jihad Watch reader, I found that pretty much everything Robert Spencer says about Islam is confirmed in Gabriel's insider account. Gabriel is gentle, loves Muslims, but doesn't hide any of the monstrosity of Muhammad's behavior and Islamic theology. And Gabriel's account is fascinating not only because he is a former insider to Islam who brings a feeling for what it's really like. He was also one of the cream of the elite, a professor at Al-Azhar University in Cairo. Gabriel's book also gives interesting details about the experience of Islam. For example he briefly describes exactly how Muslim prayer is done and feels.
Gabriel also illuminates something that seemed recently to trip up even the hugely learned Serge Trifkovic recently. In a very recent frontpagemagazine symposium, a Muslim participant in the debate pointed out that the "no compulsion religion" verse was given in Medina, not Mecca. The Muslim debater was trying to show, I think, that the doctrine of abrogation does not easily apply against the "no compulsion" verse, because the "no compulsion" verse was given in Muhammad's Medina period, i.e., the later part of Muhammad's career. Thus one supposedly cannot speak of canceling the "no compulsion" verse in favor of later violent verses that have the last word. Perhaps Trifkovic knew the answer to this, but, as far as I recall, he didn't give it in the symposium. But in Jesus and Muhammad, M.Gabriel does: the "no compulsion" verse was indeed given in Medina, but before the Battle of Badr. It is after that battle that Muhammad's bellicosity shifts into higher gear. Thus the doctrine of abrogation does apply to the "no compulsion" verse, which is canceled out by the violent Qur'an verses that Muhammad revealed last of all.
Having shown with many fascinating examples how very favorably Jesus compares to Muhammad (different attitudes to love, women, prayer, violence, politics, etc.), M.Gabriel concludes that Muhammad was a false prophet, and at the same time points out numerous odd similarities between the life of Muhammad and that of Jesus. For example, Jesus had twelve disciples, and Muhammad appointed twelve leaders in Medina.
As I recall, there is a Christian tradition that says the prophesied anti-Christ will contemptuously mimic the Christ in various ways. Perhaps Mark Gabriel, in noticing the many odd parallels between Jesus and Muhammad, is alluding to that Christian tradition about the mimicking anti-Christ. But M. Gabriel says nothing about that in his book, so he may not have been making that allusion at all.
Posted by: traeh at December 3, 2006 4:15 AM
I read this pile of shite last night. I was so angry I could not respond.
Stella L. Jatras you know nothing about Britain. You think the British are blindly ignorant of the Islamic threat? If you came here rather than re-spouting discredited scare stories from a distance you may get a proper view of the reality.
Posted by: Turbinehead at December 3, 2006 4:32 AM
Turbinehead:
I can see disagreeing with various comments by posters on this thread. But I'm not sure why you disagree with Stella L. Jatras. Nowhere in the article does she say "the British are blindly ignorant of the Islam threat." She doesn't say the Brits are ignorant in any way.
But I guess you disagree with the "discredited" scare stories. How have they been discredited? Cool your anger a bit and bring out your facts and logic.
I've seen polls of Muslims in the U.K. that do seem pretty scary. For starters, apparently something like half of them don't care for Western institutions and would prefer Shar'ia law. Is that not scary to you? Some six percent of U.K. Muslims apparently support not only Shar'ia, but also terrorism against the U.K. Six percent is about 90,000 people. One percent of U.K. Muslims, or about 16,000 people, according to a poll, would be "willing, even eager" to actively carry out terrorism in the U.K. Can you provide facts and logic to show how these polls in recent years are to be disregarded? If you can show me some good counterevidence, I'm certainly open to revising my views.
Posted by: traeh at December 3, 2006 4:59 AM
In my long post above, I unintentionally made it sound as if M.Gabriel's father left Egypt after the shooting incident. I meant M.Gabriel himself fled Egypt.
Posted by: traeh at December 3, 2006 5:14 AM
Today in Britain there are more practiSing Muslims than there are practiSing Anglicans
That is an interesting assessment based on the five times a day a Muslim prays I suppose. These figures are the typical sloppy media - journalists are basically innumerate. When England and Connecticut both had Church Levies attendance was much higher; in fact the imposition of a compulsory Church Levy for the Anglican Church would probably improve much in the USA - and the abolition of the Tithe in England in 1937 did much to stop farmers contrbuting to the local church.
One of the things about Sunni Islam is that it is structured much like Protestant Sects in the USA. You get a building, an imam, and rake in the money and that is your prayer-group. There is no structure, no organisation, just a standalone mega-mosque of the type they are now trying to build in Newham in London to copy the mega-churches of the US.
Traditional Churches in Europe have central authorities which do not exercise central control; and the Church of England is basically the same organisational structure as before The Reformation with different liturgy, sacraments, and the Archbishop of Canterbury in place of The Pope, and the Archbishop being appointed by Royal Prerogative and not by The Pope.
One difference is that Church congregations are now financially under the control of The Bishop and the C of E has many more Bishops than in 1900 and much fewer clergy. It is as they say, top-heavy.
It focussed since Geoffrey Fisher became Archbishop c. 1944 on Structure not Evangelism, and so evolved a bureaucratic structure which made the Synod, a sort of lay parliament, the fount of all bizarre comment and a 1960s influenced clergy which successfully alienated male members of the congregation and anyone who operated at more than the most basic level of sentimentalism.
England does not have US style money-and-soapflakes type churches run by Elmer Gantry and his ilke. It is illegal for satellite evangelists to operate here. Churches pay taxes so the tax-exempt business model selling modern-style Indulgences is not appropriate here.
The English are not demonstrative like the Americans, and do not wear their hearts on their sleeve. So there are many more Anglicans in England than attend Church on a Sunday, indeed many Anglicans attend House Churches and Methodist Churches, especially if they get fed up of regurgitated sayings of Frank Griswold or Gene Robinson.
The values of the Anglican Church are more deeply embedded in the mainstream culture in England than ever they are in the United States, largely because the Church of England is an Established Church and has socialised values into the populace as a whole to such an extent that they don't even recognise them as exceptional or even denominational. It was really strange when living in the USA to find people could not say Merry Christmas but said gibberish like Happy Holidays which I thought was like saying Hail Potato it was so meaningless.
To actually find that Americans were not Anglicans was very unnerving and made them seem very alien and frankly some of the replicas they made do with seemed really odd and a bit crackpot. Indeed the biggest mistake ever made was to make the First amendments apply to the States and to outlaw the Established Church provisions of the Massachusets, Maryland,Virginia, and Connecticut Constitutions and to rename places like King's College as Columbia University.
The way that the United States let the Protestant Ascendancy which built the nation be degraded and pushed aside is quite amazing. It is unparalleled outside a Communist country for the Establishment religion to have been so diminished as Protestant Anglicanism was in the United States to the point where the USA is rated the world's largest Catholic population.
This policy of undermining Protestantism and removing Nativity Scenes from public places and banning prayers for public buildings (except Congress and the Supreme Court) is used as the template for Secularists in Europe to seek to destroy religion.
As for Muslims, they would be far more satisfied in a country with an Established State Church so long as they were tolerated. What is difficult for them to conceive is a State with no religion, no structured belief in God, but simply Secularism.
That is why in countries with a strong Christian Church - The Rock - Muslims would have far fewer problems in understanding society than in the anarchic and money-obsessed playpen that Western Society has become largely drawing upon the way US society has evolved into a pursuit of individual pleasure and money elevated into the old Greek Cult of Hedonism which seeks even now to infect the Anglican Church and has corrupted same in the USA.
Posted by: Voyager at December 3, 2006 5:21 AM
i totally agree with turbinehead and disagree with traea.muslims are no where being popular and we are not blind to the threat.
Posted by: world4christ at December 3, 2006 5:29 AM
world4christ,
It doesnt matter whether muslims are popular or not what matters is the penetration they have made into British institutions and cities.
The two million figure for Muslims residing in Britain is a total fabrictaion, you just have to visit any major city in Britain and realise the numbers are probably 5-10x that. Hence the reason Mohammed is now the most popular boys name in many major cities across the UK.
I agree at this stage a vote for the BNP is probably Britains last resort to save what we recognize as historically the British isles & culture, but the BNP are too weak to effect any change in the short term which will reverse the current demographic threat.
They may even get a couple of parliamentary seats at the next election but rampant Gramscian socialism which permeates Britain is too well entrenched. Fears for Britains future are not unfounded, I just hope that the posters saying that Britain is about to do an about face are correct, sadly I think they are wrong any change is likely to be too little too late.
Posted by: km at December 3, 2006 5:43 AM
The two million figure for Muslims residing in Britain is a total fabrictaion, you just have to visit any major city in Britain and realise the numbers are probably 5-10x
Yes it is a total fabrication - it is an over-estimate and whoever thinks there are 10-20 million Muslims in Britain is in need of a reality check. I think it would be really noticeable if 33% population of the United Kingdom were Muslim just as Americans might notice 100 million Hispanics.
Now KM - tell us in what major city in Britain you reside and observe such facts on the ground
at December 3, 2006 5:50 AM
To JFGR, Provoslavni, EliasAlucard:
Christianity and secularism are not opposed, at least not in the case of this meaning of secularism: "Give to Caesar the things that are Caesar's, and to God the things that are God's."
That meaning of secularism (which is not necessarily the meaning any of you were talking about) refers to a governing system that, with regard to religion, forbids establishment and allows free exercise. Christianity is a historical source, arguably the main historical source, for that kind of secularism.
Posted by: traeh at December 3, 2006 5:51 AM
Mohammed has become one of the most popular names for baby boys in England and Wales.
It entered the top 20 most commonly chosen names for 2004 baby boys for the first time ever, according to the Office for National Statistics.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4148335.stm
BOYS' TOP 10
1. Jack
2. Joshua
3. Thomas
4. James
5. Daniel
6. Samuel
7. Oliver
8. William
9. Benjamin
10. Joseph
GIRLS' TOP 10
1. Emily
2. Ellie
3. Jessica
4. Sophie
5. Chloe
6. Lucy
7. Olivia
8. Charlotte
9. Katie
10. Megan
at December 3, 2006 5:52 AM
To World4Christ:
I never said Brits were unaware of the Muslim threat or that U.K. Muslims are popular, nor does Stella L. Jatras in the article say those things. So I'm not clear why you are disagreeing with me or Jatras.
To Voyager:
I don't know the numbers, though I've read that 1.7 million is about the total. But even if not an underestimation, that number is only a partial relief, for two reasons.
(1) Isn't it true that the non-Muslim birthrate is extremely low, so that the non-Muslim population can be expected actually to shrink, while the Muslim birth rate is extremely high (many mothers having six children?), so that the Muslim population will grow as a percentage of the total U.K. population? This certainly seems to be true in some parts of Europe.
(2) Even if (1) is wrong, polls show, as I mentioned in an earlier comment, that one percent of U.K. Muslims (currently 16,000 Muslims) are willing or even eager to carry out terrorism against the U.K., and six percent of U.K. Muslims (currently about 95,000 people) would support such actions against the U.K. We seem to be entering a time when WMD's will be invented ever more rapidly in ever more varieties, with ever greater lethality, at ever lower cost, with ever greater accessibility to ever more people. In light of that, isn't the U.K. in a bit of a sticky wicket, what with about 90,000 Muslims in the U.K. being supportive of terror against the U.K., and 16,000 U.K. Muslims actually willing to carry out terror against the U.K.?
Posted by: traeh at December 3, 2006 6:16 AM
The truth is folks that the USA is more of a center-right nation. It is more closer in Jewish/Christian faith then it is given credit for. Also those Muslims that are living in the USA do not want to get into any troubles because of their small numbers and the fact that Americans also are armed to the teeth. So they are more likely to report any radical troublemakers to the proper authorities.
Posted by: bigcatgirl13106 at December 3, 2006 6:16 AM
The truth is that Europeans and Americans grossly stereotype each other (though obviously Europeans do so much much more). Full disclosure: I'm American ;) (and I'm just kidding about Europeans doing it much much more -- they do it more, not much much more) (just kidding) (not) (fingers crossed behind my back)
Posted by: traeh at December 3, 2006 6:31 AM
"The values of the Anglican Church are more deeply embedded in the mainstream culture in England than ever they are in the United States, largely because the Church of England is an Established Church and has socialised values into the populace as a whole to such an extent that they don't even recognise them as exceptional or even denominational"
You are not wrong there.
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2-2482203.html
44% of deaths in the UK are marked by a Church of England funeral. Don't know if that includes Church of Wales, and Church of scotland. add on Catholic (lots),non conformist, (lots) and Orthodox (growing) African churches etc
at December 3, 2006 8:07 AM
as I mentioned in an earlier comment, that one percent of U.K. Muslims (currently 16,000 Muslims) are willing or even eager to carry out terrorism against the U.K., and six percent of U.K. Muslims (currently about 95,000 people) would support such actions against the U.K.
This farcical poll was conducted by the Daily telegraph using a sample size of 400 - all male. ICM which conducted the poll approached men leaving Friday prayers outside a mosque and asked them the questions, then asked them to recommend someone else the pollster could call to make up the sample size.
Muslim women are rarely polled.........and the sampling of Muslims for polling purposes is frankly so skewed as to be irrelevant. The poll was fraudluent.
44% of deaths in the UK are marked by a Church of England funeral. Don't know if that includes Church of Wales, and Church of scotland. add on Catholic (lots),non conformist, (lots) and Orthodox (growing) African churches etc
If I buy a Ford car in the US does that include Toyota, GM, Honda and Mercedes as subsidiaries ? The Church of England is the baptised religion of probably 80% people living in Great Britain.
Church funerals are somewhat difficult in a country where most people are cremated. A grave may cost $12.000 in London for a 99-year permit plus the cost of the funeral and the cost of a headstone - so it might well cost $20.000 for a Church Funeral and Cemetery Burial.
Most funerals are today cremations and the service takes place at the crematorium which has a non-denominational room for services before the coffin slides through the doors onto the trolley for manual insertion into the oven.
Since Churches and crematoria are some distance apart, traffic is very heavy, and the crematorium operates on 30-45 minute slots it is like a conveyor belt of short services and then cremation followed by the next service.
That is why there are fewer Church funerals. In addition the Victorian era had cemeteries with two Cemetery Chapels - one for the Anglican Church on the left and one on the right for the others..........the Cemetery used to be consecrated for Anglicans to the left of the entrance - and the others consecrated each grave on the right of the Cemetery according to denomination
Posted by: Voyager at December 3, 2006 8:22 AM
BTW - all those who die in social services accommodation or without instructions to the contrary are automatically cremated.
Your article related to exhumation. This requires an application to The Home Office and very good reasons. Having spent a great deal of time reading Grave Registers and Burial Registers I have seen some of these Exhumation Orders.
Since in Britain graves are stacked with burials taking place one on top of another; and some older graves may be 15-feet deep, i have seen exhumations where all bodies have been removed to get one particular corpse out of the grave - the others must then be replaced, but each requires an Order.
In Germany all graves are emptied every 10 years and you can see the zinc case into which the remains are placed for cremation and the grave them re-sold.
Churches in England have very poor grave registers and plot maps. The only real market for a Church grave is the headstone. When churchyards get full they have the local authority cut the grass and often headstones are removed to facilitate grass-cutting.
In the 19th Century civic cemeteries opened because of the space limitations - in our region a 24-acre cemetery opened to handle the deaths from cholera in 1846 and this is now getting full. Graves were moved from churches in the city as it expanded and roads were widened or the CBD expanded - these bodies were re-interred in mass graves.
What seems to be lost on many people is that England is 50.346 sq miles with 50.4 million people..................about the same area as Louisiana which has 4 million people
The United Kingdom is just smaller than Michigan but with 61.5 million people instead of Michigan's 10 million.
Land is very expensive and the fact that Britain has the fastest growing population in Western Europe with over 600.000 Poles having immigrated in one year shows it will not get cheaper - so more crematoria will be needed
Posted by: Voyager at December 3, 2006 8:37 AM
Now KM - tell us in what major city in Britain you reside and observe such facts on the ground
Posted by: Voyager [TypeKey Profile Page] at December 3, 2006 05:50 AM
Peterborough, although thankfully I do not have to live there anymore.
And I refer you to this gem of an article from the BBC.
Posted by: km at December 3, 2006 8:46 AM
ImNoDhimmi
The CofE churches are half empty but the evangelical churches are full.
Posted by: DP111 at December 3, 2006 9:05 AM
Yes America should beware and be aware of everything that is going on in the western world. Wherever large populations of Islamists move to, trouble follows, to put it mildly.
Go to Gandalf's latests posts on the brilliant blog Uppompeii.
Posted by: pigtails not veils at December 3, 2006 9:08 AM
ImNoDhimmi
This earth of majesty, this seat of Mars
Isnt Mars the god of war?
Kissinger once said that Britain was the most militaristic nation on earth.
There is deep anger in Britain. Muslims beware. This aint an isle you mess with.
Posted by: DP111 at December 3, 2006 9:12 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=maHSOB2RFm4
Unbelievable.
Posted by: EliasAlucard at December 3, 2006 9:24 AM
Mert
I find your first post on this thread (No 7) absolutely amazing. To answer you in full would take several pages but how about this?
About 5 years ago the BBC reported that there were 3000 cases of genital mutilation in Britain each year principally in the Somali community. The medical services had been instructed to deal with these “sympathetically”, that is to say - Clean up the mess and shut up.
You will have heard of Susan Amali Brown the Ugandan Muslim married to an Englishman?
About the same time she was on a Radio 4 programme discussing the treatment (mistreatment?) of Muslim women in Britain when a senior detective from a Yorkshire police force made the following statement. “Of course we will act in any case of illegal treatment when we have evidence, but we have no evidence”. She SCREAMED at him; “No evidence! No evidence! What is happening across a range of northern cities is an acceptable in any civilised society!
As a matter of interest she mentioned that she gets more hate mail from fellow Muslims than from the BNP.
Now I know that mutilating little girls' private parts and mistreating women and getting away with it is not actually full Sharia law but you'll have to admit its start.
So as for;
"If Sharia law is operating in Britain, then the test will be the reaction of the courts to the first Imam who orders a limb lopped off".
You really are innocent. The powers that be would never let the case get to court and if it did censorship is such that you would never hear of it.
at December 3, 2006 10:30 AM
Typo - Should read
"What is happening across a range of northern cities is unacceptable in any civilised society!"
at December 3, 2006 10:32 AM
To all my British friends and comrades at arms, from a descendent of the ancestors that fought with El CId to ride Spain of the dreaded Moors, wake up that English spirit that brought so much good to the world. Just as my ancestors saved Europe at Lepanto and yours saved the modern world with the defeat of the Armada, we both must struggle yet again with faith and rational thought. Each nation and people with their native strengths, united together we will save the world. Passion is our shield and rational thought our sword. I am with you as I am with all the brave souls that see sharia and Jihad for the that it danger is.
Wake-up those ancient English values, seek inspiration both in the religious faith and rational judgement of your ancestors.
As I have said many times before, to them we are all infidels, no matter if your American or British. WE MUST STAND TOGETHER, or fall separately in the slavery that is Dhimmitude. till our creative sprit and belief in God disappears under the heel of Islam.
To the citizens of England I say, purge you society of cultural decadence, find faith in the morality that served your ancestors well, here in America many will stand with you against the common threat of sharia.
Wake-up, you may be a majority now, but be aware that the foundations of your great civilization, a civilization that formed the foundation of the American Ideal, a gift to us from our common ancestors, that we should always appreciate; is being eaten from beneath by the growing plague of sharia and the waves of Islamic demographic onslaught.
Wake-up and vote before it's to late! Cherish your grandchildren for they will be the future soldiers that will save and protect the world.
Posted by: El Cid at December 3, 2006 11:14 AM
El Cid,
Great post. And let us ask God to help us. He did so at Lepanto and Vienna and he listened to Esther in the Old Testament. All we have to do is ask. In this day and age, perhaps that is the hardest task.
Posted by: Isabellathecrusader at December 3, 2006 11:38 AM
demographics my foot.km peterborough is majority white.british moms are more likely to have 3 or more children than any other european country.cant find the link on the times now.muslims must be shown the door but now or in 50 years time muslims wont be majority.this is not germany.people should get the notion of islamic wave across britain out of their brains.they make little fuss and its blown out of proportion.im a well travelled brit telling you this.
Posted by: world4christ at December 3, 2006 11:45 AM
the only thing britain needs right now is a right wing government ukip or bnp.even now muslims are not even the latest immigrants.have you seen the number of poles and eastern europeans in britain 700000 in one year of eu entry.more are expected from romania and bulgaria.thats equal to the number of muslims.
Posted by: world4christ at December 3, 2006 11:56 AM
world4christ
Government figures give 2060 as the date when Anglo-Celtic people will be a minority in Britain although the exact make up of the new majority is not given.
BTW wasn’t there an attempt to burn down Peterborough Cathedral by a “Man of Asian appearance” a few years ago?
at December 3, 2006 12:03 PM
World4christ I believe that all the cities in the UK for the moment are majority British, the point is not about whether they are the majority, it is about how the spear head of the Islamic Dawa reaches a critical mass and then destroys the country from within. Bat Ye'or has hypothesized in her book Eurabia that this critical mass is about 10% of the total population.
Her hypothesis would appear to be correct as has been demonstrated in France where the Muslim population is estimated at 10-15% (5-8 million is an accepted figure) of the total population. Having lived in both the UK and France and traveled widely within both countries I can assure you there is very little difference between these two countries and the distribution and quantity of Mohammedans.
As Fred says above the UK's own government figures state it will be only 50 years before the UK's indigenous Anglo-Celtic people will be a minority. Thats 49% vs 51%, the 10% figure is probably already upon us. I appreciate your optimism for the UK's future but as has been discussed already the creeping secularism which is a product of liberal socialism has removed from a large proportion of the population the sense of identity, moral and cultural values required to sustain the country.
The Brits might be topdogs at getting drunk and going out for a fight, but alcohol fueled punch ups on the street is going to be of little use against a 1400 year old strategy of invade and conquer through Dawa. Especially when a good proportion of the UK populace will never be able to pull their minds out of the liberal/lefty/multiculti political swamp that so dominates the UK political landscape and supports the ongoing Dawa.
Posted by: km at December 3, 2006 12:55 PM
Thank you Isabellathecrusader, and God bless.
world4christ, fight now while we may still have time. The structure looks strong from above but underneath the foundation is slowly being eaten away. Maybe not today or tomorrow but soon enough you will see the strong walls show signs of cracks.
Posted by: El Cid at December 3, 2006 1:06 PM
km and fred give me a break!! France has 10% muslim populace and britains 2%.and fred i would like to know where you got your demographics from.the uk home office if such a statement ever came out it would be a top story.i think you read untrusted demographics from jh/dh who dont live here like i and voyager do.yes kim you are right.we need to get rid of these liberals thats why i would vote bnp.it would take some time before they make impact but they will eventually.and km i hope you didnt mistake hindus,sikhs,blacks for muslims.
Posted by: world4christ at December 3, 2006 1:19 PM
km and fred give me a break!! France has 10% muslim populace and britains 2%.and fred i would like to know where you got your demographics from.the uk home office if such a statement ever came out it would be a top story.i think you read untrusted demographics from jh/dh who dont live here like i and voyager do.yes kim you are right.we need to get rid of these liberals thats why i would vote bnp.it would take some time before they make impact but they will eventually.and km i hope you didnt mistake hindus,sikhs,blacks for muslims.
Posted by: world4christ at December 3, 2006 1:25 PM
el cid i agree with you in stamping out islam.but i must say there has never been a time of renewal to the islamic threat than in the last 2/3 months here.the veil debate and all that.the only problem is that our govt has no balls to carry out drastic measures.we are fighting it even if the govt and liberals are putting their heads in the sand.but those who argue that uk popula will be minority by 2060(big hoax)then what will be of the us.now ethnic minority makes up 30% of us population.what will that be in 2060?90% i guess.now ethnic minorities make only 8% this is low compared to most eu countries or the us for that matter.
Posted by: world4christ at December 3, 2006 1:42 PM
Heres some figures for you world4christ
This from the Guardian of all people:
Please note that Whites will be in the minority in London by 2010 and they are predicting 2100 for the rest of the country.
The same apples to the US where whites of European descent will be a minority by 2060, maybe this is where Fred got his figure from.
And lets be realistic about this the vast majority will be Muslim.
at December 3, 2006 2:21 PM
world4christ
Sorry, but the 2060 date first appeared in an independent study about 5/6 years ago. At the time the researcher did not want to be named for fear of being accused of racism. Since then it has been quoted unchallenged in The Guardian and on the BBC.
Some JW poster can probably get you a link to one of these somewhere.
Posted by: Fred at December 3, 2006 2:23 PM
km:
"The same apples to the US where whites of European descent will be a minority by 2060"
Where did you get that projection?
Posted by: atheling at December 3, 2006 2:47 PM
km:
Oh now I see. I read the second link you provided. "Where California goes the rest of the US goes"???
Hmmm, I don't think so. California is usually not the norm, it's the exception.
That piece you linked is 6 years old. Right now the trend in the US is larger families among the suburban, affluent yuppies. Instead of the customary 2 children, they are opting for 3 and 4. I was just out shopping with a friend the other day and we both noticed young couples (white, east asian, hispanic) with lots of little kids in tow.
I'm not too concerned about Hispanics having lots of children. Our Hispanic population (and I mean the legal ones who are American citizens) assimilate well, work hard, respect our laws and are mostly Christian. Good Americans. Nothing to fear about that.
Now, if it were Muslims in America who are outbreeding us, I'd be worried. So far, it's not happening... yet. We have to work on our immigration laws to prevent it.
Posted by: atheling at December 3, 2006 2:58 PM
"Communism. Nazism. And now a rejuvenated Islamism, paid for by immense transfers of Western Wealth (America too) but nurtured in the socialist nests created for them by the insane projects of cradle to grave socialism -- the perfect milieu for a parasitic culture of annihilation, genocide, and hegemony to nurse and coddle her Muslim Minions."
Well said Susan p. As always.
Posted by: americaningermany at December 3, 2006 02:50 PM
Oops, I didn't say that, jsla did. I was responding to his comment but forgot to put "posted by" before my remarks. Sorry.
Posted by: Susanp at December 3, 2006 3:08 PM
americaningermany:
"I wouldn't doubt it though. Before 1965 the U.S. was 90% white and I would shudder to think what it is now.
Mexicans and muslims are the two fastest growing demographics in the U.S, outdoing African-Americans as well.
The population growth in the United States is stable, meaning the replacement rate is the same as the death rate, but it is not whites who are reproducing beyond their death rates"
Why do you shudder to think of what it is now? What's wrong with Mexican Americans, black Americans and Asian Americans? They are all Americans! And they are also intermarrying with white Americans. Still, I see no problem with that.
Muslims are not a race, they are a religion. So your bunching them with Mexicans makes no sense.
at December 3, 2006 3:17 PM
BTW:
http://economist.com/world/na/displaystory.cfm?story_id=8031359
Posted by: atheling at December 3, 2006 3:36 PM
I'm not too concerned about Hispanics having lots of children. Our Hispanic population (and I mean the legal ones who are American citizens) assimilate well, work hard, respect our laws and are mostly Christian. Good Americans. Nothing to fear about that.
Atheling I am not too concerned about the Mexicans either I have just left CA after many years there and had no problems with them, a lot were very devout family orientated people with a strong a Christian heritage, just the kind of thing you need to combat Dawa, the same goes for the Eastern Europeans coming into the UK, I am pretty sure they will contribute positively to the country.
I guess the point I was trying to get across is that demographics can not be discounted especially in regards to Muslims. But we should be aware the demographic changes in Europe are radically different from those in the states, with the bulk coming from the Indian subcontinent and North Africa and we all know what that means.
Posted by: km at December 3, 2006 3:44 PM
I'm not too concerned about Hispanics having lots of children. Our Hispanic population (and I mean the legal ones who are American citizens) assimilate well, work hard, respect our laws and are mostly Christian. Good Americans. Nothing to fear about that.
That's not the issue.........the USA has lots of space.........before it gets to England's population density it needs to import another TWO BILLION people.
The problem with England is space - it is so congested it can take an hour to travel 9 miles even in the North of England. You simply cannot move and with 1000/day coming from Poland and 656 others/day from India/Pakistan/Africa the country will grow at least another London in the next decade.
Posted by: Voyager at December 3, 2006 4:03 PM
voyager:
My point was concerning americaningermany's post. I'm not talking about England.
Posted by: atheling at December 3, 2006 4:05 PM
americaningermany:
You did NOT use the term "illegal" in your original comment which I am referring to. That makes a BIG difference. Note that my response was careful to exclude that group.
Posted by: atheling at December 3, 2006 4:07 PM
americaningermany:
"I don't know if you've ever been on the wrong side of racial hatred, but I have. In America. Because I am white and blonde. Many Mexicans can't stand gringos you know."
I'm considered a minority here in the US. I'm an American, however. I don't really identify with the culture of my origins, because I'm an American, and that's the culture I identify with.
I've been on the receiving end of bigotry from whites, blacks, Mexicans, Indians, blah blah blah... so what?
I've also lived in Southern California for five years. I've seen racism there, and everywhere. So what?
I still don't hate Mexicans. I don't hate blacks. I don't hate whites. I don't hate Indians. I've also been on the receiving end of great generosity and friendship from whites, blacks, Mexicans, Indians, etc... and I've come to learn that you're going to have the nasty with the good when it comes to ALL races. It's human nature.
I'm sorry you are embittered by the treatment you received from Mexicans. But don't paint them all with the same brush. I know many wonderful Hispanic peoples who are decent and honest and contribute greatly to American society. And that's part of what makes America great.
at December 3, 2006 4:17 PM
To atheling:
I'm with you on this one. The problem is not ethnicity. It's Jihad and Shar'ia, both of which are integral to Islam.
Legal immigrants have assimilated brilliantly into the U.S., regardless of ethnicity. It can take a generation or two, but that's been the case with virtually every ethnic group, including several European ones. African-Americans are a special case because the evil of Jim Crow only ended a generation ago, after going on since the civil war. But even African-Americans, coming out of centuries of slavery and a century of Jim Crow, have made huge strides in the last generation. Since I was a child, the positive difference is HUGE. Indeed, one can detect significant improvements almost by the decade.
Unfortunately, PC has made it so that people would rather refer to "ethnicity" than to Islam, and this has become the habit among many in Europe. Even those who know better adopt the fig leaf many Muslims use to hide the embarrassment of Shar'ia and Jihad. Everyone except racists knows ethnicity is an innocent category, and no one can help what color he is. How convenient for Muslims, then, to be referred to as an ethnic group. But the problem with Islam is not that many of its adherents have a nice natural tan. Islam is not a race, and obviously it includes people of all races.
But I'll qualify my point. It's true that many Muslims in a way don't have much of a choice about leaving Islam -- the punishment for apostasy being death. Even though most U.K. Muslim families wouldn't delegate a member to kill an apostate family member, still danger threatens every Muslim apostate from other sources. And there can easily be family ostracism and violence. And then there are all the Muslims who are children, who clearly have no choice about what they are. Further, many Muslims are from a particular ethnic group or type. So the lack of choice or straitened sort of choice available to Muslims, and sometimes the skin color, do mean there is a sort of half- or quarter-truth to the equation with ethnicity. But it's a quarter-truth that shouldn't be permitted as a figleaf to cover the supremacist, totalitarian goals of Shar'ia and Jihad, both of which are so integral to Islam that they might not be detachable from it on any significant scale in any reasonable timeframe.
Posted by: traeh at December 3, 2006 4:30 PM
To Voyager:
Thanks for the comment on the poll about one percent of Muslims (or 16,000 U.K. Muslims) being "willing or even eager" to actively engage in terror against the U.K.
Do you recall where you read that criticism of the poll?
Posted by: traeh at December 3, 2006 4:32 PM
"Your secularism is what started the Eurabia process. Before secularism Europe was Judeo-Christian and islam was almost nonexistent in Europe."
Firstly, I personally am not a secularist, so it is not "my secularism". My point was that the Islamist threat is an ideological, not a religious, threat to the West, and that you don't have to be religious to oppose it. Secondly, I would dispute that there is a "Eurabia process". Mert, for one, has eloquently shown that this a black-and-white view of Europe which fails to take into account the many, and growing, voices of opposition to Islamism. You might as well argue that there is an "Americabian" process because of all the compromises with Islam and Muslims which are documented on this site. (And haven't you just elected the dhimmi Democrats, by the way?) All this rather sleazy anti-Europeanism just confirms a European view that the Americans are complacent isolationists. And don't start about us being ungrateful, please. That is another irrelevancy. Can't you people see that Europeans and Americans share a common past and culture, and that this is what is important, not scoring snide points every time there is another case of dhimmitude in Europe?
Posted by: JFGR at December 3, 2006 6:23 PM
El Cid
Great post.
Now VFR has a great discusion going on Britain, Britain and Europe etc..
You will be particularly interested in the comments of Henry A.
http://www.amnation.com/vfr/archives/006835.html
I hope you see this post. Do reply or else I will post this message again on a new thread when I see you on it.
Posted by: DP111 at December 3, 2006 6:41 PM
El Cid
The link I gave you is a free wheeling discussion and the arguements swing back and forth.
at December 3, 2006 6:54 PM
If i needed an example of cheap British bashing , then here it is:
The english don't care if the churches are closed down, they don't attend church services anyway. Only time the english will worry about the muslims is when the pubs begin to be shut down by the muslims.
[...]
Posted by: Mert
Hey lighten up! Maybe they should reform the churches and have pubs inside them. The moslems shure would HATE that! I mean they do serve wine in chcurch so why not beer?
at December 3, 2006 7:22 PM
To JFGR:
The cross-Atlantic insults -- in both directions -- probably help those who want to bring Shar'ia and jihad to Europe and America. So I agree with you they should stop.
at December 3, 2006 7:31 PM
Don't think that what is happening in Britain, France (which, I might add, is a basket case, pretending that they do not have problems with their Muslim youth), and all over Europe cannot happen in America.
(From above by Robert)
Regarding the title of this thread "America Beware" I would like to mention not only do we need to watch what happens closely in the U.K. and continental Europe, but also watch our own back yard. California is the state where everything happens first. When they first came up with the no smoking ban in bars, I laughed and said that would never happen on the east coast. Ha.
this is from America Alone by Mark Steyn:
"Take one trivial example: just before Christmas 2003, Muslim community leaders in Callifornia applauded the decision of the Catholic high school in San Juan Capistrano to change the name of its football team from the Crusaders to the less culturally insensitive Lions.
Meanwhile, twenty miles up the road in Irvine, the schedule for the Muslim Football League's New Year tournament promised to bring together some of the most exiting Muslim football teams in Orange County: The Intifdada, the Mujahideen, the Saracrens, and the Sword of Allah.
He goes on and then,
If this is a "long war", then in the long run, which is the real battlefield? The sands of Araby? Or the football fields of Orange County and a thousand others?...."
at December 3, 2006 11:17 PM
There are public schools in California that require students learning about Islam to recite verses from the Koran, dress as Muslims, state their own jihad and pray to Allah (Washington Times, 16 January 2002). Schools throughout the United States provide prayer rooms for Muslim students during their one month of Ramadan, while for decades judges have told us that our own Christian children cannot even bend their heads to say a prayer over their school lunches. It appears that Christ is out of our schools – and Muhammad is in.
From Robert above
Yes, sorry I forgot he mentioned these things about our schools in detail too. It should be a big worry. I hope we can stop arguing among ourselves.
Posted by: pigtails not veils at December 3, 2006 11:36 PM
I am British, and I don't like what's happening to my country. In my opinion, the public needs to get educated on what Islam and Leftism is really all about.
While Christianity may well be a dying religion here is Europe, something equal of value needs to replace it... something that stands FOR human rights and liberties. Anything that stands for human rights is by default and enemy of Islam. Leftists claim to be the answer but in reality they serve only to undermine the effectiveness of our democracy by getting others to REACT to them, by playing the race cards and everything else. They are void of logical thougth processes and promote stupid policies like 'don't arrest Muslims during ramadan'. It's disgusting.
If religious education in schools was done properly, they would include all of the major religions and Islam would stick out like a sore thumb as being the most violent, the most intolerant and inherantly evil in nature. It would be such that it would be socially unacceptable to be a Muslim. The answer lies in education AND in the teaching of logic in schools.
Not to mention the fact that if logic was taught, it would kill leftism along with Islam. Anything that is the truth stands up to even the heaviest of scrutiny, anything that is bullshit crumbles away. Leftists believe that all cultures are equal and that multiculturalism is the way forward, yet how can that be so when Islamic culture does not respect other cultures? How can a culture which does not respect human rights be equal to one that does? Quite simply, people need an education.
I'd be in favor of tax cuts, deportations of criminal Muslims, deportation of Imams who preach hate, and the educational steps outlined above. If the British people don't act soon, then we will have signed our own death certificate.
Posted by: Truthseeker at December 4, 2006 2:03 AM
pythagoras, I don't think Americans care any more about Sep 11th or else they would be doing something about it instead of going back to sleep... muslims have been telling them that they are coming for a few decades now and no one cares, our media should be had up for treason..they have kept America in the dark about what is happening in other countries,for many years. Oh yes they have concentrated on Muslim countries but not on what muslims are doing in non-muslims countries so Americans think that Muslims are only a threat in places like Iran...
I was talking to a young journalist who said that if you are a right winged journalist you have a hell of a time, you are bullied and ridiculed that in fact it has become so hard to be a journalist in the media if you are right winged that most right winged journalists get out.. so all media is slanted to the left, and experience has shown us that it doesnt give us a clear view of the world situation..but both right and left governments havent outlawed this bias so they both must want it this way...
at December 4, 2006 2:24 AM
I am British, and I don't like what's happening to my country. In my opinion, the public needs to get educated on what Islam and Leftism is really all about.
Look at The Guardian and Independent both defending Russia and Putin over the liquidation of Litvinenko. The article today by Neil Clark accusing people who attack Putin of being Russophobes as the Left hope the Soviet Union is being rebuilt.
The way the Left sucks up to dictators is redolent of S&M practices, and it is so funny to see the Left Comics like Guardian and Independent rushing to defend the FSB and SVR against accusations of being gangsters and murderers.
Posted by: Voyager at December 4, 2006 2:31 AM
Funny, but years ago, before the great mass immigration started, America functioned just fine and all without illegal aliens and immigrants. Restaurants were run by Americans, hotels were owned and run by Americans, gas stations were run by Americans. Beds in the hotels were made, the rooms were cleaned and tables in restaurants were bussed.
All WITH good old American citizens! What a shock for you, eh?
When i lived in the USA I used to buy textiles 'Made in USA' because I preferred to keep Americans in work rather than Chinese............funnily enough I preferred to keep my neighbour in work
Posted by: Voyager at December 4, 2006 2:33 AM
The mass immigration of Muslims into the Western world has to stop. They are hostile towards our culture, and even if that wasn't an issue, we simply don't have enough jobs to go around. Guess who is footing the bill for all the immigration into England... you guessed it, the taxpayer! Our politicians should grow some balls already, stop any more from coming in, and deport any who are already here if they commit any crime. That would send a message to the Islamic world that Infidels aren't so easy to take over after all. To be honest, I find Islam so distasteful that I would rather die an Infidel than live a single day as a Muslim.
Posted by: Truthseeker at
(Note: Comments on articles are unmoderated, and do not necessarily reflect the views of Dhimmi Watch or Robert Spencer. Comments that are off-topic, offensive, slanderous, or otherwise annoying may be summarily deleted. However, the fact that particular comments remain on the site IN NO WAY constitutes an endorsement by Robert Spencer of the views expressed therein.)