Do they really hope to convince us that they have all the answers to the world's problems?
Is there anything good about islam?
I doubt it!

You can't help feeling sorry for these women.
yes,,,I know,,some of them are masochists! But they can't all be that bad, surely??

Posted by: Gramfan at December 3, 2006 7:20 AM

That was holy acid I guess, blessed by the doctrine of death and by Allah, the god of death and destruction.

Posted by: rocky at December 3, 2006 7:22 AM

Ridiculous people.

Posted by: americaningermany

There has got to be a stronger word in the English language for them!

Right now - I just can't think of it,lol!

I think it is good they want to ban the internet though. The more western ideas they ban, the further backwards they go.

OT but has any one here seen the miniseries "The Grid"? Worth wacthing: it hasn't dated a bit.
It shows how they use the internet to get their message out, and a lot of other good stuff.

I just wish they would all go back to islamic countries and leave us alone! Yeah,,,too good to be true.

Posted by: Gramfan at December 3, 2006 7:41 AM

They voted for Hamas. They made their bed - now they can lie on it!

Posted by: TeachESL at December 3, 2006 7:53 AM

A few years ago, I was hearing ads from a radical feminist group on the radio, decrying the plight of women of the third world who had to "carry huge buckets of water on their heads for miles every day!"

Where the heck is the outcry from radical feminist groups about the outright misogyny of Islam? Answer: still too busy bashing Christians.

Posted by: Clive at December 3, 2006 7:54 AM

I think i need to ask my democratically elected representative in my country what the goverment plans to do with the aid to "palestine" being used in this sort of way and what the goverment thinks about the human rights report that shows women treated so badly there....

I think I will suggest aid is sent somewhere in the world that needs it and doesn't abuse women so badly...

Posted by: exposesithlords at December 3, 2006 8:07 AM

Where the heck is the outcry from radical feminist groups about the outright misogyny of Islam? Answer: still too busy bashing Christians.

Posted by: Clive

Indeed!! The feminists are P***-weak on these islamic issues. They would have killed a pro-lifer by now, but this is ok.
Sickening.

Posted by: Gramfan at December 3, 2006 8:08 AM

Their contempt towards females knows no bounds. If only they could appreciate beauty, if only they weren't so deranged, if only the we could wake up from this nightmare, if only, if only.... What's the use.
There is no word to describe them. They are like a disease which just keeps spreading throughout the globe and they don't always need bombs to keep spreading their sickness.
They say they worship Alla but we know it's just another name for the devil.

Posted by: pigtails not veils at December 3, 2006 9:20 AM

While my disgust with Islam knows no bound, it saddens me to hear of the horrendous treatment of women in Islam. What I find equally disturbing is the priorities of American Muslims - subjugation of the evil American infidels and the absolute refusal to recognize the evil inherent in Islam. To them, Islam can do nothing wrong. The fact that Islam condones the punishment of women for not being modest will never be admitted by them. They are too busy making the infidels accommodate their rituals and screaming islamophobia at the slightest criticism. Such is the sickness that is Islam.

Posted by: John Sobieski at December 3, 2006 9:59 AM

Now if Islam had triumphed at Vienna in either 1529 or 1683, this is how Western women would be treated if they didn't cover up in sackcloths. We have so much to be grateful for the actions of the heroes of the past like Sobieski, but how much mention do they get away from forums like these. People forget that the freedoms we have today were won not only against Nazis, but against Islamists too over a much longer period of time. Once in power, Nazism lasted 12 years - a mere footnote, but a very brutal one at that in the annals of human civilization. Islam, on the other hand has been around as a power more than 100 times as long as Nazism, and is continuing to gain in strength, whilst the West, with all its economic and military strength, is perceived by its enemies as getting weaker with every passing day. And why? Reluctance to use that power as a result of squeamishness, fear and political correctness run wild. And it is this political correctness that gets Islam described as a religion of peace. What other religion would get described in this manner after atrocities like 911 etc, plus everything that has happened since. The principal reason why the West is facing collapse at the hands of these savages is because our fear of inflicting casualties on our enemies heavily outweighs our survival instincts thanks to political correctness.

Posted by: Spirit Of 1683 at December 3, 2006 10:49 AM

americaningermany and rudekid:

In your attempts to show how misogynist Muslims are you've damned yourselves too. By using the slang name for female genitals to insult a male you show that you just don't get it. A lot of consciousness-raising is in order.

And Robert, please don't allow this on your otherwise excellent site. I've read many insults to women here from posters which because of the pervasiveness of sexism in our language and culture may go virtually unnoticed, but which do contribute to the worldwide oppression of women.

Posted by: Jen at December 3, 2006 11:00 AM

"yes,,,I know,,some of them are masochists! But they can't all be that bad, surely??"

yes they are all that bad. Being that in Palestine there are still christians, a woman that wants her face saved could firstly become christian, mix with the palestine christians and at least she wouldn't have

1) to wear veils
2) play as human shield (at least volutarily)
3) send her christians son to blow up himself

so i feel no sympathy for those women

Posted by: StillFedUp at December 3, 2006 11:13 AM

Is this another example from the palestinians on how to build a nation? You gotta love these people-they whined incessantly about the "brutal" occupation they "endured" from Israel. Well, the evil Jews are gone and what happens? These idiots celebrate freedom by doing things like this. But these people want a country-they are entitled to one. They are so worthy of one. Let's keep sending them aid so that they can continue this noble exercise in nation building with such useful acts.

Posted by: ISLAMSFORLOSERS at December 3, 2006 11:20 AM

Jen-

Hi. I think the reason such words are used from time to time here is because many posters are so disgusted with the horrible stories coming from Islam that only the most revolting terms are used in reaction. JW has edited or deleted comments that I've felt were less insulting so by and large this site is rather "clean". When discussing the many evils of Islam some of us just get carried away-vile terms seem the only ones appropriate to use for vile acts. It usually does not mean that the poster of a comment is bashing someone intentionally other than the intended target even if it appears to be the case.

Posted by: ISLAMSFORLOSERS at December 3, 2006 11:35 AM

Off topic:

Ayatollah issues fatwa calling for two journalists in Azerbaijan to be killed

Ummah News Links

Posted by: ummahnewslinks at December 3, 2006 11:54 AM

Jen

I wasn’t showing particularly how “misogynist” these perpetrators were, I was expressing in simple terms, language that is clear and appeals to some people. Acid throwing isn’t just the domain of men against women

I don’t subscribe to your orwellian reduction to the english language. Your use of words and terminology might be appropriate or appeal to some people, but not to others. My terminology might be a bit brash but americaningermany “got it” (sorry for the flak). He/she could have gone on for hours without distilling the essence of the situation probably because he/she has conditioned and hamstrung by political correctness.

You talk about pervasive sexism as some one-way street, it isn’t; plenty of men are on the receiving end of pervasive sexism every day, but hey-ho I can live with it. This type of babble is from another era, don’t be offended but I think you need some conscious raising to get out of the 70’s.

Jen, continue your style of posting and getting your views across, I won’t be offended if you use long winded or high-falluting terminology, or if you decide never to use particular words. However, I do find it offensive that you make appeals to stop the likes of me from expressing my opinion, albeit probably a little too robustly for some people.

I don’t mean to offend some women and if I’ve offended you personally, then I apologise for being such a cock. Robert (if your “listening”), Jen’s right, this is an excellent site, but please allow us plebs to have our opinions, albeit we can’t seem to articulate ourselves too well and just get carried away…………..

Person formally known as rudekid

Posted by: rudekid at December 3, 2006 12:00 PM

Combine fear and hatred of women with a young man's intense sexual drives and package it in a sado-masochistic death cult and what have you got??? The Holy Warriors of Islam.

The social-sexual contract as Gilder understood, asks young men to sublimate their intense short term sexual drives to long terms goals and relationships thus creating the environment that nurtures children and a FUTURE. Blowing one self in a bloody carnage to go to the great whorehouse in the sky is, 'a short term goal'.

Apocalyptic death cults are futureless, inhuman, and inherently evil. There is NO discussion with such people. On what grounds? The most fundamental human connection is gone. Exploding grandmas, children as human shields, sex driven martyrdoms, and a puritanical violence that makes Cotton Mather look like Hugh Hefner.

Posted by: poetcomic1 at December 3, 2006 12:04 PM

I'm not a fan of what I consider to be extremely vulgar language, as above (although I'm not offended by the more common expletives, LOL).

I just think they are too vague and don't tell me what a person really means. Oh, sure, I know it means they're disgusting and not worthy of respect, etc., but someone might as well call a Muslim an arm or a neck for all it communicates to me.

Posted by: Josephine at December 3, 2006 12:49 PM

I feel very sorry for the woman who had acid thrown in her face.

I look forward to seeing the story all over the news media and also seeing her interviewed on the Oprah show.

After all, this is a shocking aberration for Islam, which makes it newsworthy in that "man bites dog" way.

(Yeah, right.)

Posted by: Josephine at December 3, 2006 12:54 PM

The poor Gazans are suffering under a few radicals. Howzabout if we send in a few tens-of-thousands of troops, save the vast majority of moderate Gazans who just want to live in peace and tolerance, send tens of billions of our hard earned dollars to them to build a brand new shiny city for them, and promise not to leave, no matter how long it takes or how many of our soldiers are killed, as long as the Gazans want us to stay there? Am I a strategic genius or what?

Posted by: special_guest at December 3, 2006 1:02 PM

I'm sorry, I cannot abide the 'c' word about women. All the rest but not that.

Posted by: poetcomic1 at December 3, 2006 1:05 PM

Me either, poetcomic.

Hence, all instances of it were deleted on sight.

Posted by: MarisolJW at December 3, 2006 1:13 PM

Alslamo alikom (Peace be up on you)

this is the islamic greeting a muslim should say to any people he sees any where, at work, lift, super market etc., whether he is muslim or non muslim.

concerning the posted topic about those gaza acid idiots, although i don't beleive it because i didn't hear about it except from this website, i'd like to say that ISLAM IS INNOCENT FROM SUCH IDIOT EXTREMESTS, there is not even a single word in the holly Quran or Sunna that orders or supports such an IDIOT action, so i don't understand why do you stick it to islam, because the doer is a muslim?!!!! i think islam, christianty and jeudism are not responsable for all the deeds of thier followers, every group of people belongs to a religion, a principle or an ideology always have extremests and modrates, so PLEASE don't focus on minority of extremists and leave the majority of modrates.

i have some few words i'd like all people to take in considration.

PLEASE

STUDY ISALM DON'T STUDY MUSLIMS

alsalamo alikom (peace be upon you all)

Posted by: MuslimForEver at December 3, 2006 1:23 PM

LOL, care to comment on the above statement ? ( i cannot, I am still laughing)

Posted by: StillFedUp at December 3, 2006 1:53 PM

Re the choice of words when the intent is to insult: regardless of what excuses are used, the choice of word is important. I get angry too, with what I believe is a justified anger, when I read of incidents such as the throwing of acid. But I would hope that I don't insult half the world's population (ironically the half liable to be the target for acid-throwing)with my choice of word.

ISLAMFORLOSERS: I understand your disgust and I share it, but all women are hurt when such words are used.

americaningermany: I'm not offended. I've got much thicker skin than that, but thanks for saying so anyway.

rudekid: I repeat, I'm not offended, and I never asked that you be prevented from expressing your opinion. Please, express away! Just remember that language can elevate, or it can bring us down -- your choice.

As for the warnings in Gaza for females to refrain from using Internet cafes, I have personal experience with such places. As a female who's hung-out many times in Internet cafes in a Moslem country (Turkey) I can vouch for the testosterone-charged atmosphere there. They are the modern cultural extensions of the tea-rooms, the male-only traditional meeting places. Although custom is changing there slowly, only being a foreigner (and therefore considered slightly mad) gave me a certain aura of isolation from the virtually male-only crowd of patrons. If one can see through the thick cigarette smoke and stand the din of blaring pop music simultaneously played while noisy soccer matches are watched on TV and cheering young men shout from one end of the cafe to the other as they compete with each other on the latest Internet game, then one is hardy enough to venture in. Often I was the only one there who could not speak Turkish. I always engrossed myself with my computer screen and tried to block all else out, including the stares. Several times I visited the Jihadwatch site while there and somewhat bemusedly looked around wondering why these Turkish young males had no interest in such current world problems.

Due to the cultural parallels with male-only tea rooms, the modern Internet cafe is a no-woman's land for females in I would guess most Moslem countries. And so the banning of females from Internet cafes makes sense to the Just Swords of Islam group. Having a female surf the Internet while seated shoulder-to-shoulder with young males is just too threatening to these guys. And with the frustration of losing some of their power, they turn to violence.

Posted by: Jen at December 3, 2006 2:07 PM

http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/meast/12/02/immodest.beach.ap/index.html

On CCN an Islamic puff piece touting what Muslims in Qatar 'tolerate' in sponsering an international sporting event: women in bikinis playing volleyball. An abberration, of course, that only concerns well financed attempts to improve the image of the country to make it easier to purchase technology, negotiate international agreements.

But CCN, the BBC, Reuters, and other media will not report on what is not tolerated in Muslim countries and what Muslims are prepared to do to keep women in their place. Non-Muslim women playing volleyball are more important than the millions of Muslim women who have their clitoris sliced off with razors, the thousands murdered for the sake of honor, the denial of education, and Islamic misogynist repression in all its forms: from cloistering, to denial of opportunity, to brainwashing young women to view their bodies as evil, ugly trash to be hidden away with shame, to the ultimate form of psychological terror: the sudden threat of violence that may kill or leave one scared forever.

Posted by: JTF at December 3, 2006 2:08 PM

"As a female who's hung-out many times in Internet cafes in a Moslem country (Turkey) I can vouch for the testosterone-charged atmosphere there. They are the modern cultural extensions of the tea-rooms, the male-only traditional meeting places. "

in normal western lands the tea rooms are for old ladies...

BTW, why don't you tell us how what are your experiences in turkey. You know, they feel so modern there...( sarcasm)

Posted by: StillFedUp at December 3, 2006 2:12 PM

about the volley match of women in bikini

Though 16 Muslim nations are represented at the Asian Games, only one, Iraq, is competing in women's beach volleyball. And its team, sisters Lisa and Lida Agasi, are Christians.

That explains it all.

Posted by: StillFedUp at December 3, 2006 2:14 PM

Dear Troll, (muslimforever)

We are busy studying ISLAM. What we are finding out is that it is very ugly. It is a death cult. The proper greeting for an american muslim is "Hello".

We know that your are a Muslimforever because your fellow Muslims will kill you if you decide to leave. I bet that makes you feel a whole lot better?

Posted by: credit man at December 3, 2006 2:17 PM

hey hey credit man how can you say, he's an american muslim?

Posted by: StillFedUp at December 3, 2006 2:21 PM

http://www.islam-watch.org/AbulKasem/SexInIslam/sex_and_sexuality_in_islam.htm

Above is an article by an ex-Muslim, Abul Kasem, at Islam Watch: it is an extremely good source for references to primary source material in the Qur'an and hadith on sexuality and women.

Posted by: JTF at December 3, 2006 2:34 PM

A little poem

This is not a Tabla Raza
Where the natives out of Gaza
Do splash acid in the faces of a whore...
There's precedent in Dhaka,
In Islamabad (and Kinchassa!),
And the fashion is the rage in old Lahore...

If you want to see some bashings,
Or explosions, or some slashings,
Go to any little enclave in their Ummah.
(I've even heard it said
Lodi's Imam "wants to dead"
All the cowboys who inhabit Petaluma!)

Peaceful Muslims make me fearful
(And they bellyache an earful!)
And suggest that their community is quite placid.
But I cannot help but marvel
(As they plan their larval arval)
How such mild persons can resort to acid...?

Posted by: jsla at December 3, 2006 2:44 PM

american in germany

read the link

http://www.islam-watch.org/AbulKasem/SexInIslam/sex_and_sexuality_in_islam.htm

there is the explanation on why the muslim man of your german woman cleans himself after sex

Posted by: StillFedUp at December 3, 2006 2:45 PM

Hi StillFedUp: I've posted a few of my experiences and thoughts here if they concerned the topic at hand. While working in Turkey I wrote a type of newsletter to friends and family. I'm afraid some of my writing might seem naive to me now -- and it's only been a few years. I've returned there several times and my understanding of Turkey has deepened each time, helped along by my observation of events there (such as the recent Pope Rage). One day I'll organize my writings a bit more. Thanks for your interest.

Posted by: Jen at December 3, 2006 3:58 PM

Israel should have kept Gaza and kicked out all the palestinians. Those idiots should live in the Sinai Desert-they have no business having a nation. One might as well open all the insane asylums in the world and send the patients to Gaza-they couldn't do any worse.

Posted by: ISLAMSFORLOSERS at December 3, 2006 4:46 PM

Those creeps who threw acid in that woman's face are al queda members. They are the scum of the earth and if the hamas leaders had any balls they would go after those bastards and bring them to justice.

Posted by: callmeinfidel at December 3, 2006 4:52 PM

Robert,
This acid incident seems curiously like de-ja vu. I remember similar reports in Indian Kashmir about a decade ago (1997) and also in Pakistan and Indonesia (Banda Aceh) recently...and maybe also in Egypt. Is there any islamic justification in the use of acid?

Posted by: Tushar Saxena at December 3, 2006 6:07 PM

Tushar Saxena

forget a decade ago, try 267 victims in bangladesh alone for 2005. Its nearer groundhog day than deja vu.

http://www.acidsurvivors.org/html/info_statistics.htm

and whilst women are disproportionately on the receiving end, men and boys are significant victims in this area.

Posted by: rudekid at December 3, 2006 6:29 PM

It's a pty Muslims didn't stick to their old trick for disfiguring a woman - slitting her nose. I'd imagine there would be a graeter scope for amelioration by cosmetic surgery.

Posted by: wallyUK at December 3, 2006 6:43 PM

my wife who wants to visit Israel would probably be dress modestly by her standards and a t shirt and jeans probably would not meet these idiots standards and we are over there only and when these idiots tried that Allah would be getting one castrated Arab but it could be the reason that thease idiots are so again the Internet because people can read the truth with out some ignorant mullatelling us what to think to do and how to act. Incidentally watch Glenn Beck on CNN tonight it's hard to believe anyone at the communist news network would speak out against Islam but he's doing it has done it over the past few weeks.

Posted by: islamakapigeaters at December 3, 2006 7:09 PM

How sad that Moslems are going backward in evolution; back to the savage Dark Ages. God I hate ALL religions - they're all the same - repressing women. I was listening to Rimsky-Korsakov and Debussy today, and getting "high" on the music, and it struck me that not ONE Moslem is a classical composer. Not one!

Posted by: allat at December 3, 2006 8:52 PM

Muslimforever

Of course you're a Muslim forever .. you'll be dead forever if you escape.

No one .. no one .. deserves to have acid thrown in their face. Muslims reserve the right to perform this atrocity for the crime of being born female. Quite frequently, it's sexually motivated. They hate themselves as much, if not more, than they hate the rest of us.

Here are just a few of the acid victims (Afghanistan is full of them, as is Iran and the rest of glorious islam). Bear witness:

http://www.persecution.com/news/index.cfm?action=fullstory&newsID=174

http://gatesofvienna.blogspot.com/2005/06/pain-is-etched-in-her-face.html

http://www.theasiannews.co.uk/news/s/219/219152_my_acid_terror.html

http://www.corrosion-doctors.org/Acids/acid-attack

-1.htmhttp://www.newagebd.com/2005/mar/07/pulse.html

Posted by: Daisytoo at December 3, 2006 8:58 PM

Realize that individuals do not count in Islam. muslims are a blood-thirsty mob with no individuality or personal accountability, as we see every day. Hence, muslims do not find a single muslim is guilty. On the other hand, all of Infidels are either ignorant or guilty or both.
There.. that is the backward muslim logic for you.

You can tell that education is not a priority for muslims.

Posted by: Alert at December 3, 2006 9:01 PM

This is one of the sickest things they do. The only thing on earth that can help at least the smartest and most sensitive of them is the Roman Church.
Taking a look at their new approach, catholicfundamentalism.com we can explain to Moslems that God can program in three dimensions.
He programmed particles, compiled them into structures and beings, and had them move through time.
When we understand that, we can explain that to them that God is kind and loving, not some acid-throwing Vendetta in spiritual form.
There's a free book to download on the site.

Posted by: gchesterton at December 3, 2006 10:00 PM

The denizens of Gaza got the government they wanted and deserve. The problem I seem to have is that I can feel no compassion for the woman who got the acid treatment. I cannot seem to get worked up over atrocities committed by Mooselims against other Mooselins whether the objects of the violence are women or children. I do not have the ability to use the word victim in this case either.

The only hope I have is that Islam will crumble from within. At this time there seems to be no external pressure at all.

Posted by: Pelayo at December 3, 2006 10:25 PM

MuslimForEver, merry Christmas.

Gee, are the Mooselim sharia enforcers studying a different Quran?

Posted by: Pelayo at December 3, 2006 10:31 PM

Does someone know the different greetings..just heard that in the C-Span. One greeting is to non-Muslims which does not mean Peace be upon you...but actually means peace be upon Muslims. The greeting the Pres. of Iran used in the letter to President Bush. In other words, the greeting is such that it does not mean non-Muslims should have peace?

Posted by: Abby at December 3, 2006 10:32 PM

The only hope I have is that Islam will crumble from within. At this time there seems to be no external pressure at all.

Posted by: Pelayo at December 3, 2006 10:25 PM

It should, if only the West would quit extending a helping hand everytime those idiots have a problem. The Muslims are destined to annihilate
one another with their fanatical need to show who's the most pious.

Posted by: ISLAMSFORLOSERS at December 3, 2006 11:03 PM

I've read many insults to women here from posters which because of the pervasiveness of sexism in our language and culture may go virtually unnoticed, but which do contribute to the worldwide oppression of women.
jen your language in some of the political correctness that a lot of people on here dislike simply because political correctness is disease that is letting radical Islamb gain such a foot hold here in the United States and Canada , even the word sexism is a PC buzzwordI think you'll find great majority of men on here have a great deal of respect for women in my case I am married to a feminist I will not deny there is discrimination in the workplace today but I have seen a case where a woman as used for antidiscrimination laws to get through a hard rock course in school rather than failing her past her and in the first week on the her job because she consistently took shortcuts with setting charges the net result because she was not qualified for the job man died. As a ex-trucker I am all for women in male jobs as long as they are physically able to do the job.

Posted by: islamakapigeaters at December 3, 2006 11:07 PM

Comment to MuslimForEver:

If your 'religion of peace' is so up on womens rights then:

Why does Mohammed sanction wife beating?
Why are men allowed to take four wives, but the woman only one husband?
Why does Mohammed use circular logic to 'prove' that a womans intelligence is half that of a mans?
Why does Islam allow grown men to marry little girls... just like Mohammed and Aisha?
Why are Muslim women required to obey their husbands?
Why are women viewed as mere property?

The Koran is the nastiest and most evil book I ever read... it is about on the same level as Mein Kampf, except that Hitler was a better writer. Islam has no place in this Century, and has no right to call itself a legitimate religion.

Jihad is defined in Koran as Holy Fighting for Allah... not the 'inner struggle' as some Muslims tell us. Mohammed lead mass murders, engaged in pedophilia, was a serial rapist and a sexist pig. Koran brags about his accomplishments while taking over towns and selling people into slavery and butchering people. I can't imagine how anyone could mistake that vile book for scripture. Yet it does explain why Muslims behave the way they do today... they're only carrying out Mohammed's orders after all.

Truthseeker

Posted by: Truthseeker at December 4, 2006 1:33 AM

STUDY ISLAM MY ASS!!!!! We aren't supposed to judge islam by muslims? HOW ELSE DO WE JUDGE? Get off it already, troll! All western women are called whores because a few wear bikinis or are prostitutes! If you think the pedophile religion is so wonderful then I dare you to spend 2 weeks in an islamic country! I HATE IDIOTS!

Posted by: practical witch at December 4, 2006 2:30 AM

As Gabriel Bridgette noted political correctness is killing us.

It is ironic that feminists seem more concerned about rude language than having acid thrown in a woman's face.

We should all worry less about being offended or degradations of the language, and worry more about losing our liberty or our heads.

"My definition of a free society is a society where it is safe to be unpopular."

Adlai E. Stevenson Jr.

Perhaps, he should have included the right to dress "immodestly".

Posted by: WillPower at December 4, 2006 2:33 AM

I made a post without any offensive words. It was removed without any explanation. This is censorship.
Robert, have you considered moderating your moderators? Political correctness is destroying us, whether it is about race, religion or gender.

Posted by: CarpeDiem at December 4, 2006 2:45 AM

MarisolJW,

You have deleted posts selectively, so it is difficult to understand exactly what happened. By leaving some posts and deleting others you have created both an air of confusion and censorship. Whatever the incident was, I felt it was being handled internally by posters. We are adults and do not need a "Mommy" Marisol to protect us. Those who were offended expressed their opinion freely. Other responded with apologies and explanation.

In my opinion you have acted with bias and have abused your authority. Your reaction to the offending post is little different from the Muslims who were outraged by the Pope's speech. How do you expect us to stand against the censorship of the MSM when you engage in censorship yourself?

I request you restore all deleted posts.

Posted by: WillPower at December 4, 2006 3:40 AM

"All censorships exist to prevent any one from challenging current conceptions and existing institutions. All progress is initiated by challenging current conceptions, and executed by supplanting existing institutions. Consequently the first condition of progress is the removal of censorships."

George Bernard Shaw

Posted by: WillPower at December 4, 2006 3:50 AM

"I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it."

Thomas Jefferson

Posted by: WillPower at December 4, 2006 3:52 AM

CarpeDiem -- I found your posting abusive to another poster. But in particular, I did not want the thread to again degenerate into a debate over the use of a particular word, rather than the topic at hand.

WillPower -- in the interest of efficiency, with regard to earlier deleted comments, I'll just reproduce the message at the top of the comments, relevant passages highlighted:

(Note: Comments on articles are unmoderated, and do not necessarily reflect the views of Dhimmi Watch or Robert Spencer. Comments that are off-topic, offensive, slanderous, or otherwise annoying may be summarily deleted. However, the fact that particular comments remain on the site IN NO WAY constitutes an endorsement by Robert Spencer of the views expressed therein.)

Marisol Seibold
Jihad Watch News Editor

Posted by: MarisolJW at December 4, 2006 6:47 AM

Assalamau Laikum all,

Hmmmm, I am a bit surprised by this. Although I have an internet connection at my business, I go to an internet cafe now and then to eh..."mix it up a bit".

I must admit that in Lahore, there is a jolly good mix of peoples there (mostly young) but I have never felt insecure (I don't wear a burka...only ever done it at my marriage) or felt a need to hide anything...except while the JW page is coming up...I normally hide that.

Still if it's true...all I can say is that Ahmadi muslims would never do that.

Worry about the extremist minority a little perhaps... but stick with us Ahmadis...we'll see that the Kafur get a fair crack of the whip...at least no worse than the Ahmadi....that is my Allah SWT promise to you.

Posted by: Naseem at December 4, 2006 8:13 AM

Dear Muslimforever,
You really should get out more, if only on the internet.
Check out the video interviewing the executioner of Mecca. Now there is real peace. He talks about dismembering people like a guy working in a deli.
He has less emotion than someone asking how thick do you want your meat sliced. He says it's a job like any other job, except it involves swords and people's heads.
And for the real religion of peace, you must find the video of a Muslim impalement. As the victim increases in agony, so does the crowd in "Allah Akbar's".
Do all Muslims do this? Of course not! But enough either actively support or approve of this barbarianism that us Infidels are concerned to say the least.
If you shouted from the highest mosque in the world that you are against this, Islam says for me not to believe a word of it because it is o.k.: no, expected for Muslims to lie to Infidels.

Posted by: cactus at December 4, 2006 9:07 AM

Marisol,

I think you underestimate the damage your deletions have caused. The posts were not off topic. The fact that a single offensive word was used might justify bleeping the word, but not deleting the entire post or series of posts.

Censoring posts that contain offensive words undermines everything that Jihad Watch and Dhimmi Watch work for and stand for. It is political correctness, which is censorship hiding behind false pretenses. Your standards of “offensive, slanderous, or otherwise annoying” as grounds for deletion sound entirely subjective and is no doubt similar to the standards used by censors in Iran, Egypt and other bastions of free speech.

1) By summarily deleting posts based on your subjective assessment, you have shown that the West is not as open to an honest discussion of sensitive issues, as we claim. The discussions between posters seemed quite civil by internet standards. You have aborted a useful dialogue. You have taken sides with some posters over other posters. Are we not adults? Let any posters who feel abused defend themselves. Why do you infantilize them by acting like their mother? Why is a thread “degenerating” because people express strong opinions about another poster’s words? How does this post pass your test of abusive to another poster??

“STUDY ISLAM MY ASS!!!!! We aren't supposed to judge islam by muslims? HOW ELSE DO WE JUDGE? Get off it already, troll! All western women are called whores because a few wear bikinis or are prostitutes! If you think the pedophile religion is so wonderful then I dare you to spend 2 weeks in an islamic country! I HATE IDIOTS!”

2) Having engaged in censorship based on a subjective determination of offensive posts, how can Jihad Watch or Dhimmi Watch criticize the Islamists for trying to censor material, such as the Mohamed cartoons, which they find offensive???

3) You have damaged the integrity of the two sites. I used to scoff at Islamic apologists who described the sites as a places to engage in “Islam bashing”. But, your selective deletion of posts gives credence to their claims. Many posts containing language extremely offensive to Muslims are tolerated. But, posts containing one word offensive to women are excised like cancers. What hypocrisy! Do your sites only allow politically incorrect posts on Islam?

Truth is our greatest strength. Censorship in the guise of political correctness plays into the enemy’s hands. I thought you were on our side.

Posted by: WillPower at December 4, 2006 9:27 AM

Can someone tell me the which verse(s) in the Koran address who and when the Internet can be used?

Posted by: sheiknbake4pork at December 4, 2006 9:36 AM

alslamo alikom(peace be upon you all)

StillFedUp : i am glade to make you laugh, and i hope you liked the joke that made laugh that much, which i don't recognize till now.

credit man : AGAIN AGAIN you are studying muslims, and if you reread my comment you'll find muslims SHOULD say, Islam tells them to say, i didn't say that all muslims do, but let me tell you something, may be the reason they don't say it is because you don't know arabic so you'll not understand it, another reason is that the latest anti-islamic media spoon feeding made them afraid to even reveal their identity to all people, which is the responsibility of both the muslim extremists and the media the magnify events with adding some spices, which is the media job any where in the world to attract people, please note in most arabic speaking countries they say alslamo alikom because everybody know what it means, if i am MuslimForEver because i am afraid to be killed, which is not true, so you would have found me on this site insulting islam not defending it!

americaningermany : why not study muslims? very simple question, has very simple answer, if every religion is responsible for the deeds of its followers as they are its fruit as you say. then let me start the list.
1-Hetler the leader of a christian country started the WW2 which was responsible for the killing of more then 1 million people, beside the mass killing and opression he did to german jews.
2- check out this link for the crime stats of united states, http://www.disastercenter.com/crime/uscrime.htm
3- united states has 44 million heavy drinkers, said jimmy swaggart the famous christian preacher.
4- the american people are spending 54 billion dollars a year on gambling, said jimmy swaggart.
and list goes on and on

does christianity supports these deeds, TELL ME!!!
no it doesn't, christianity condemns all these deeds, so why you don't look at the christianity the same way you look at islam!!! or simply be convinced that the religion is not always responsible for the deeds of its followers.
and i'll repeat it again, study islam not the muslims, concerning "the peace be upon you" thing i totally mean it, you didn't get into my brain or heart to know if i mean it or not, so stop saying what is not true.

americaningermany : "but yet they are involved in some of the weirdest sex acts in the world" one of the best jokes i have ever heard, check weird porn websites online your self and you’ll figure who are the people going into weird sex and doing intercourse with animals, and other kinds of weird sex, but tell me first where did the AIDS come from?, which is believed to be a result of abnormal intercourse between a man and an animal, where did it came from?!! From Indonesia or the arab gulf?!!! Who is having sex with animals then?!!! Yes we are proud that islam doesn’t allow sex before marriage, lets see the results in the USA a nation of 300 millions 1 million person is infected with AIDS, the muslim nation of 1.5 billion, muslim countries are not even on the AIDS world map, this is apart from the other STDs and foundlings produced from these relations.
BTW SEX IS NOT A SIN OR FORBIDDEN BY ISLAM, only sex without marriage is a sin and forbidden by islam.

Daisytoo : already answered at the beginning of the post, “No one .. no one .. deserves to have acid thrown in their face” yes of course you are right and this is the opinion of islam too, if you didn’t believe this because of few dozens of idiot Islamic extremists, this will not because you are not convinced, it will be because you hate islam whether it is good or bad so you don’t want to believe it, if islam orders its followers to throw acid on faces of women wearing immodest colthes so I guess any normal person figure out how many muslim, or non muslim living in a muslim country, women have burnt faces in the Islamic countries!! They really would have been a lot!

Alert : “You can tell that education is not a priority for muslims” this is completely false, here are the proofs.
1- prophet mohammed said , ”seeking education is a must for every muslim(male or female)
2- prophet mohammed said , ”seek education from the time you are born to the time you die”
3- prophet mohammed said , ”seek education even if it was in china” , note: china was the most far place at these time so what prophet mohammed meant is to seek education where ever it be near or far.
4- prophet mohammed said , ”the true muslim should seek knowledge even if it wasn’t in the muslim countries”
And there are also many verses in quran do you want more?!!
Another logical proof, if islam doesn’t really order muslims to seek education so please tell me where did the european civilization get their scientific bases from, every body knows that the base of the European civilization came from the Islamic civilization, and the muslim scientist are already famous enough , Mohammed Abo Mosa ElKawarizmi (known in the west as Algorism) the founder of the Algebra, AlHassan Ibn ElHaisam (know as Haitham) the founder of science of optics, and more and more they are too many to be mentioned here.
And you say after all this that education is not a priority in islam!!!!!! This is none sense.
Concerning the Islamic civilization I mentioned above which contributed a lot to science and humanity, and anybody denies this is an ignorant who doesn’t read history, if islam really ordered its followers with terrorism then tell me how could a nation of barbaric terrorists made a civilization that lasted for more than 10 centuries, this is completely NONE SENSE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Abby : I guess I knew what you mean, I guess Ahmadi Najad said, “alsalam alla man etaba’ al hoda”, which means peace be upon those who followed the right path, which clearly means muslims, but let me explain ahmadi najad is not the prophet of islam as you know, so you should look at prophet mohammed not him! Prophet mohammed always said “alsalmo alikom wa rahmatullah wa barakato” which means,” peace and mercy and blessing of god be upon you” he didn’t say what ahmadi najad said, you know prophet mohammed said concerning the greetings issue,”if you were greeted by a greeting so you MUST greet the one who greeted you with the same greeting or even better one” also if you notice here he said if you WERE GREETED, if he doesn’t like non-muslims he would have said you if you were greeated by a muslim, I hope you got what I mean.

Pelayo : “The only hope I have is that Islam will crumble”, god forbids, check the stats and you’ll see that islam is the largest growing religion in the USA and raised to be the second religion community in the USA, although the unfair trials to disfigure it whether from solid minded extremists or from its enemies.

Truthseeker : I hope your name really describes you, not just a name.
These are big topics that always Truthseekers used to advertise against islam.
I am not the right person who can talk about it, so I’ll guide you to some materials that will have your answer.
Why does Mohammed sanction wife beating?
http://www.answering-christianity.com/beating_no.htm

Why are men allowed to take four wives, but the woman only one husband?
Check this video the last 2 minutes I mean start at minute 50
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=1837525168870785121&q=deedat&hl=en
then complete it at the beginning of this video
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-7198131202643066388&q=Ahmed+Deedat+%3A+Prophet+Muhammed+%28pbuh%29+mentioned+in+the+Bible+by&hl=en

Why does Mohammed use circular logic to 'prove' that a womans intelligence is half that of a mans?
http://www.answering-christianity.com/karim/women_not_deficient_in_intelligence_and_religion.htm

Why does Islam allow grown men to marry little girls... just like Mohammed and Aisha?
http://www.answering-christianity.com/aisha.htm

Why are Muslim women required to obey their husbands?
Obedience is not absolute, it should be only when it comes the family interests, the man can not interfere in his wife’s likes or dislikes or personal opinions about something etc., even when it comes to family interests if the woman didn’t convince with what her husband want to do, the Quran ordered to get a wise person from the wife’s side and a wise person from the husband’s side to be as judges, so the wife is not a slave to her husband that obeys his orders what ever they are!!

Why are women viewed as mere property?
This is not true I don’t think there are verses of Quran that puts a rule for buying and selling wives, if they were mere properties as you say.

“The Koran is the nastiest and most evil book I ever read” I guess you need to relearn how to read reading.

The rest of your post doesn’t deserve replying because it contains insults that should not be said by a decent man going through constructive debate, except for the slavery part which reflects your COMPLETE ignorance with islam, because if you really know islam then you would have known that one of the main reasons islam was fought from the unbelievers at its beginning is because it called for equality between slaves and masters, and prophet Mohamed said “all people are equal and the thing that differs a person from another is his good deeds”.

Practical witch : I already answered similar question in this post, “I HATE IDIOTS”, me too

I guess I have answered a lot of aspects, I have to go now because I am having my final exams after two weeks so I don’t have a lot of time.

If you are really seeking the truth, try studying islam neutrally, forget all what you hear and see about muslim fanatics and extremists and try to study the real islam.

If you have anymore questions try searching the internet or visiting your local Islamic center, to seek the correct answer, this if you are really seeking the truth.

On the other hand if you are just a person who hates islam and just wants to disfigure it with out even listening to the others, so I hope you speedy recovery from this sickness.

I ask almighty God to lead us all to his right path.

Alslamo alikom wa rahmatullah wa barakto (peace and blessings and mercy of God be upon you all)

Posted by: MuslimForEver at December 4, 2006 11:02 AM

Muslimforever,

I’ve read all you rebuttals concerning the posters that responded to your first post. First of all, Islam is NOT the fastest growing religion in America, Mormonism is. Weather either religion manages to hold on to its “members” for very long is another matter. Islam may be growing at a fast pace because the morons in Washington keep letting them in and they seem to be somewhat prolific. Seems like the vast majority of Muslim women are educated very well in the disciplines baby making and cooking…I sure didn’t see any other Muslim female engineering students when I was studying engineering. I’ve read your so called book and I must say I am not very impressed with it. I wonder if you have ever spend any time reading the New Testament. Seems that Islam is so insecure that Muslims might learn the truth, that they prohibit Bibles in places like Saudi Arabia and throw people in jail for holding Christian services in their own homes. I would bet that you have not spent the time to read the New Testament because all you can find is that Jimmy Swaggart crap the Liberal press loves to drivel on and the other sins in Western society that are tolerated by Christianity. You probably didn’t know that the biggest sex slave trade is held in the Gulf States…Muslim states. Illegal or not it is happening there. One thing you can’t refute is that the vast majority of horrible murders and terrorism TODAY are perpetrated in the name of your Allah. You can’t dispute the imperative language in the Koran that commands Muslims to kill monmuslims. It’s there plain as day. I sincerely feel pity you because you are so blind. And I feel remorse for all the downtrodden Muslims everywhere because they will never have the opportunity to learn the truth or question their religious leaders lest they get thrown in prison or worse.

Posted by: never_submit at December 4, 2006 1:12 PM

As the "offender" of the "c word" in the post that has been deleted, along with a follow up from americaningermany, I'm with WillPower (your articulation supercedes mine).

I know the word is offensive to some people (but not "all" women and men) but in the context that it was made, I think it succinctly defined the thrashing around with words that americaningernmany was getting bogged down in. I qualified my comment along the lines of, that you can express yourself as much as you like but sometimes it doesn't hit home to some people because of the language some people use.

I could, like josephine stated use another word but "the blokes are elbows" doesn't make sense and doesn't hit home.

poetcomic1 - stated "I'm sorry, I cannot abide the 'c' word about women. All the rest but not that". So you wouldn't mind if my wife bent some vinyl and I articulated myself in the following manner - “you mother f*ucking, c*ck sucking tw*t of a whore” - now I’d say that was offensive.

I would like to clarify I did not say it about women, if you don't like that word, replace the c word with elbows and tell me where in the statement it is "about women", as I can't see it, whether it’s the c word or elbows. Anyway, my pet has one! so does that mean I'm obnoxious to cats.

I can't understand why it was deleted as according to the moderator’s parameters (Comments that are off-topic, offensive, slanderous, or otherwise annoying may be summarily deleted), I'd suggest most posts would be of this nature for some people if this is the guide. I'd also suggest that the post was on topic and hit the nail on the head, albeit quote bruskly.

This censorship is compounded as the apparent offence taken by Jen has been rescinded (by her shortly after the c word was used).......

Her response being:

"ISLAMFORLOSERS: I understand your disgust and I share it, but all women are hurt when such words are used".

"americaningermany: I'm not offended. I've got much thicker skin than that, but thanks for saying so anyway".

"rudekid: I repeat, I'm not offended, and I never asked that you be prevented from expressing your opinion. Please, express away! Just remember that language can elevate, or it can bring us down -- your choice".

I can take it on the chin that my ability to use the English language might elevate me or bring me down. Likewise feminist attitudes can elevate women or bring them down (in the eyes of other women and men).

I would respectfully ask that the whole thread is re-constituted and let us adults decide.

Anyway, rant over with; good luck to all you posters, keep it cl**n or you'll be on the end of something about nothing. To me censorship is insidious and more offensive than the mere use of words.

Posted by: rudekid at December 4, 2006 1:18 PM

It's a feminist issue.

Posted by: MP at December 4, 2006 1:58 PM

MuslimForEver -

I find myself citing the hadith about 'majority of dwellers of hell-fire are women...' quite frequently. I went to you link to read then answer.

Well - it's quite lenghty but never addresses the central point from this forum.

Why does Mohammed use circular logic to 'prove' that a womans intelligence is half that of a mans?

I waded through the whole thing looking for the explanation of why Mohammed would use the Qur'an to prove something to women... I don't find it.

Mohammed tried to back up his statements by quoting other things that came out of his own mouth... he is quoting himself. This is circular reasoning Circular Reasoning – supporting a premise with the premise rather than a conclusion.

Absolutely no empirical evidence exists for the existence of Allah, nor does any empirical evidence support the revelations of Mohammed coming from anything but his own mind. Mohammed had no proof his statements came from anything but his own mind.

Your link goes into great detail about why women are deficient because of their menstrual cycles and so and it quotes British medical doctors on physiological and psychological aspects of this 'deficient' premise, but the central issue was the circular reasoning... using the Qur'an to prove something is not proof.

Posted by: A_Plague_on_Both_Houses at December 4, 2006 2:00 PM

Will Power etc.

No foul language is welcome here at any time. To frame this as a matter of the integrity of the site manifests a colossal misunderstanding of what integrity really consists of, and what this site is for.

Marisol was right.

Cordially
Robert Spencer

Posted by: jihadwatch at December 4, 2006 2:29 PM

MP, Call me thick, but whats the feminist issue? can you enlighten this for me? I would appreciate it.

From my perspective here (and I'll attempt to stay on topic vis a vis the gaza incident), are we (men and women) not allowed to use the c word to express something, in this case finding the most appropriate adjective to describe a group of people who would actually throw acid in someones face. I think thats telling it like it is, the offence is the acid throwing not the word.

I don't particularly have a problem with feminism, what i do have a problem with, is where did they go? They won their battle(s) to some great degree but because of their myopia, they could throw it away and would rather be cosy and prat about over wordology than face the real issues.

the c word or acid throwing (target = face), I know what i'd be concerned about.

Maybe if the media, bloggers and forums like this banned all the crap in the world we'd feel cosy, well........until some c word person of dubious parentage threw acid in all our faces.

Posted by: rudekid at December 4, 2006 2:35 PM

to add my 2 cents I have been deleted too. When you write something the mods don't like they delete more or less the whole group of posts you put up that same time.

So that's why some unoffensive posts gets deleted too. I complained but with no effect.

Posted by: StillFedUp at December 4, 2006 4:51 PM

"No foul language is welcome here at any time. To frame this as a matter of the integrity of the site manifests a colossal misunderstanding of what integrity really consists of, and what this site is for." Posted by: jihadwatch

Robert Spencer & Marisol Seibold - Thank you.

rudekid, etc. - My understanding is that "this is not a democracy". This site is owned and run by the people at Jihad Watch, who offer their work to us free of charge, and they have the right to set the rules. We can participate but we do not have voting rights and we do not create policy.

Posted by: Josephine at December 4, 2006 6:05 PM

Josephine,

Please don’t be too patronising. I’m well aware this site “is not a democracy”, I’ve never purported it to be. I understand that jihadwatch spend a lot of time and effort in putting all this together and the majority of the people that stop by like me, appreciate this. Likewise, a lot of people who read the feeds, make comments, do their own research, debate the issue at hand and come to their own opinions also do this free of charge for the presumed greater good.

Your 100% right, they have the right to set the rules. The unfortunate thing here is that when the rules are enforced from my point of view (and possibly others), arbitrarily; it’s a shame.

I’m not a great fan of extremely vulgar language either, or people being vague but there are times when that type of language works. Trust me, it has and it does and it is from my perspective, right to use it in certain circumstances. The acid throwers, being a prime example. There was nothing vague about what I said and you answered your own question in terms of “(it) doesn’t tell me what a person really means. Oh, sure, I know it means they're disgusting and not worthy of respect, etc” You hit the nail on the head and wasted your time in explaining it to yourself.

Remember that “comments that are off-topic, offensive, slanderous, or otherwise annoying may be summarily deleted”.

Can I formally suggest that your comments, (like mine) may be classified “otherwise annoying” and request that they be eradicated forthwith? Now off to bed and we’ll see how the world looks tomorrow.

Posted by: rudekid at December 4, 2006 7:19 PM

rudekid - My brief comment alludes to my belief that jihadists assaulting a woman with acid should be viewed as a "feminist issue". In the amazing alliance between western leftists and jihadis, feminists who should speak up have not done so. The role of women in Islam is a feminist issue. The treatment of women in the ummah should be viewed as a feminist issue.
Slainte,
MP

Posted by: MP at December 4, 2006 7:57 PM

rudekid - just reread your post of 1:18 which did not lead to my brief comment directly following yours. I do however suggest that your (or any male's) use of the "C" word will quickly become a feminist issue with almost any lady that I've ever had the plesure of becoming acquinted with.
Slainte,
MP

Posted by: MP at December 4, 2006 8:10 PM

Dear Robert,
Since you were called in as reinforcement on this issue, I address this to you. I respectfully disagree, as I still do not believe we are arguing about the use of a word. We are talking about censorship-pure and simple. "Foul language" (in this case one word) is usually XXX'd out on boards, but whole posts where a word is *not* written, but alluded to, taken out?
I think one of our main problems is that western feminists have neutered males, leaving them defenseless against an aggressive male Jihad culture. I believe that by subjectively removing parts of a thread, not containing offensive words, but ideas, is an attempt to dillute the potency of some of these male posters. They did appear to apoligize and essentially were shut down by her efforts. I maintain that this feminism is undermining the Anti-Jihad message of this site. As far as "abusive", I just do not see it. I have yet to receive an example this "abuse". Abuse=to throw acid in a womans face whereby she is permanently disfigured, the exact issue these male posters were upset about.

Posted by: CarpeDiem at December 4, 2006 8:16 PM

Alslamo alikom(peace be upon you)

never_submit : about islam growth in the USA check this link will lead you directly to some parts of articles that confirms that islam is the fastest growing religion in USA, http://www.allaahuakbar.net/womens/islam.htm#Listen
also check this cnn article, http://www.cnn.com/WORLD/9704/14/egypt.islam/

"Islam may be growing at a fast pace because the morons in Washington keep letting them in", if you live in the middle east you'll what does the "morons in Washington, as you say" do to keep them out not in, and you'll recognize how hard it is to get visa to the USA.

"Seems like the vast majority of Muslim women are educated very well in the disciplines baby making and cooking" from the three muslim women i know in the USA, my relatives, two are doctors and i don't know what does the third do exactly but i am sure she had high education, so it is not islam's mistake you didn't meet muslim girls at your university, and they have 3,3,2 children not a dozen each as you may think!

"if the bible is banned in the saudi arabia, 15 million muslims, it is allowed in other muslim countries 1.5 billion muslims, so 1 in every 1000 muslims is not allowed to read the bible!! i guess islam is not that insecure!!! about the holly bible please go to google videos and search for the jimmy swaggart and ahmed deedat's debates and you'll know alot of "beutiful" facts you should know about it, also check http://www.answering-christianity.com/
which also contains some facts about the bible.

about the gulf slavery, i had alot of relatives there and they didn't tell me about some super markets where you could buy a slave with 30 day money back guaruntee!!!!!!!!!!!! or a black market where you could illegaly buy slaves with out being caught by police, and if it is illegal as you say so why don't these sex slaves go to police to rescue them!!! if they are doing this for money then they are doing these worng deeds with thier own will they are not obliged slaves.

"I would bet that you have not spent the time to read the New Testament" you are right, you was reading my thoughts i guess, few weeks ago i wanted to buy a bible but i wondered what copy should i buy they are many!! i would be grateful if you could tell me what copy that represents the majority in the US, is it the King James's deedat was talking about, please tell me because i really don't know.

"One thing you can’t refute is that the vast majority of horrible murders and terrorism TODAY are perpetrated in the name of your Allah", who created the muslim radicalists and estremisits, who supported Taliban in afghanistan against russians? who knocked off mohamed mosadak government (moderate governement) in iran in the 1953 which lead to the islamic revolution by khaman'e in iran which is not so moderate? who blindly supports isreal whether it is wrong or right? etc. i guess you know who, i don't want to get so deep into these political stuff, but what i wanted to say is the reason muslim extremists poped up these days is the opression muslims suffer in many parts of the world, because despair always leads to violance.

"You can’t dispute the imperative language in the Koran that commands Muslims to kill monmuslims" i can if they realy exist.

A_Plague_on_Both_Houses : "Why does Mohammed use circular logic to 'prove' that a womans intelligence is half that of a mans?" as you have read this incedent happended at the feast so he was teasing women by saying this words which he used the quran to prove, but he didn't really mean that women are less inteligent neither god did, and the article i guess tells you what was the reason of that verse of quran, it worth saying that at the age of mohammed there were beutiful, spritual beauty i mean not physical, women that were very wise and knew alot and more than men about the Fiqh, which is the study of hadith(prophite's words), and knew more than men about quran, and after the prophet death also there were alot of women had alot of knowledge in Fiqh, there were inteligent women at the age of mohammed so how he could realy mean that women are less intligent!!!

"Absolutely no empirical evidence exists for the existence of Allah" if you are christian and believe in god, then you must know that both muslims and christians believe in the same god the debate is just about some concepts, we don't beleive that god was personified as jesus christ as you do, but we beleive in jesus as a prophet like him like mohammed and moses, and in my country both christians and muslims say both god and allah because we both know that we are worshiping the same god, and me myself as a muslim i have been using the word god not allah in my comments.

but if you don't beleive in god and just beleive that the universe was made by chance, so i advice you read ONE book or watch ONE documentry about human body on microscopic level and THINK how all this SO accurate SO complex system was made by chance!!!!!

about the evidence that quran is the word of god, i have some websites about scientific miracles in quran, i guess this one is good http://www.answering-christianity.com/sci_quran.htm
you can also search the internet as i said and you'll find alot of good stuff, if you are really seeking the truth.

if i said anything that made anybody feel upset or sad with me, i beg his forgiveness, i don't want to leave any hard feelings inside anybody, i just meant to go through constructive debate and CORRECT ANY MISUNDERSTOOD stuff about islam.

i don't know if i'll be able to participate again as i have exams as i said, but sure i'll read your furthur comments.

alsalmo alikom wa rahmatullah wa barakato

Posted by: MuslimForEver at December 4, 2006 11:19 PM

Robert,

“Foul language” like “offensive, slanderous, or otherwise annoying” is still a SUBJECTIVE criteria. Since it is your site, you are entitled to express your subjective bias when determining what posts to delete. However, exerting your raw power in this area only undercuts your credibility when you criticize Islam for exerting their raw power to have “foul language” censored in Western media.

I regret that your post does not address the core issues I raised. In particular, these two issues:

1) Having engaged in censorship based on a subjective determination of offensive posts, how can Jihad Watch or Dhimmi Watch criticize the Islamists for trying to censor material, such as the Mohamed cartoons, which they find offensive???

And,

2) Many posts containing language extremely offensive to Muslims are tolerated. But, posts containing one word offensive to women are excised like cancers. What hypocrisy! Do your sites only allow politically incorrect posts on Islam?

Since you feel that,

“To frame this as a matter of the integrity of the site manifests a colossal misunderstanding of what integrity really consists of, and what this site is for.”

I would be interested in your definition of integrity and how criticizing others for a practice you engage in yourself falls into that definition. I would also be interested in hearing you expound on the purpose of this site and how censorship furthers that purpose.

You should know that I admire your courage and appreciate the information you post here. I consider this site a powerful weapon against the Jihadists. If I am persistent in advocating my viewpoint, it is because I do not want to see this weapon weakened by a misguided attempt at political correctness.

Political correctness IS a form of censorship and censorship is the death knell of a free society.

Posted by: WillPower at December 4, 2006 11:39 PM

And here we see a perfect example of the reason why no one should ever be forced to accept Muslims into their country. They and their ideology have absolutely NO respect for human life! None at all....

This is not bigotry. It is self-defense!

Posted by: pythagoras at December 4, 2006 11:44 PM

MuslimForever,

You are twisting the words of the Koran, they are what they say, and unfortunately these concepts found within them have no place in this century. I've been to the sites you just posted and my views still stand.

You can't possibly be telling me that the entirity of Al-Quaida, Wahabbis and other terror secs as well as oppressive regimes ALL MISUNDERSTOOD the Koran and Hadith? They understood loud and clear, and the oppression and violence in the Middle East is a direct result of following Mohammed's Koran instead of sensibly evolved secular law.

If intellectual honesty was a religious tenet, cults like Islam would not last very long.

You claim the longeivity of Islam as proof that it isn't a terror and death cult... how can that be so when Mohammed REPEATEDLY ORDERED HIS CRONIES TO MASS MURDER, TO MAIM, TO RAID AND TO FORCE OTHERS TO SUBMIT OR DIE? The only thing seperating Koran from Mein Kampf is time and place. Islam survived because it spread by the sword... JIHAD AS ALLAH ORDERED IT "wipe infidels out to the last".

You may be offended by our words, but as self-respecting Infidels who are NOT Dhimmis, we are deeply offended by Islamic Scripture, which stands against everything we stand for: human rights and liberties, democracy, education, freedom of speech and choice... etc. Muslims hate these things because ISLAM DOES NOT STAND UP TO SCRUTINY. You see the west doing so well, we have technology and a culture that the Middle East can ONLY DREAM OF... and yet you Muslims will NEVER ADMIT that it is YOUR OWN CULTURE AND BARBARIC RELIGION THAT HOLDS YOU BACK. Nothing we Infidels do is more damaging to the Middle East than Islam itself.

Posted by: Truthseeker at December 5, 2006 4:23 AM

Alslamo alikom

Dear Truthseeker: you make me so motivated that i left my study to answer your comment because your words are full of mistakes :-(
"You are twisting the words of the Koran" no i am not, the fact you don't know about arabic language is it is very complex language, and a different tashkeel, something that is put above or under words to show certain pronunciation and it is optional in most cases, the tashkeel of a word may completely change its meaning, plus the very complex figures in arabic language and the many many rules, it looks like every thing is a special case, and the position of a word in a sentence also completley differs its meaning, try studing the arabic language and you'll know what i mean, the arabic spoken today is a very mean slang if it is compared to the original arabic language which is somewhat hard to be understood by arabic speakers now except for those who studies it, all arabs reading quran today can only understand about 50-60% of it due to its language hardship that's why you should read tafseer, explanation, books if you want to know the exact meaning of a certain verse, the reason the quran is even harder than the old arabic language is because it was a challange to arabs them selves before embracing islam, because the old arabs as you may know were the most fluent, i have taken this word from dictionary so i don't know if it exactly expresses what i mean, what is mean is the old arabs were the best well speaking people like the greece were famous for wisdom and have many philosophers, so it was a challange to arabs who were challanging each other in arabic poetry and litruture matches, and there is a verse in quran that challanges the arabs to make scripture like it and yet they couldn't, another example on the old arabic language hardship is you may be surprised to know that when a female camel gives birth once it has a certain word to express it and when gives birth twice it has another word and so on till certain number that i don't know exactly, so the arabic language is not so plane like english, so each word not always litterly mean itself to the letter, also notice that some verses of quran are explained depending on the situation it was revealed at, so some vereses may give a wrong meaning unless you know the situation and the person addressed by this verse, and these situations are taken from the sunna, the prophet words, and also some vereses were explained by the prophet, i know you are getting confused because it is not that easy as you see, you can't just read the verse and that's it! tafseer, quran explaintion, is a non easy religeous science and have people specialized in it.

"I've been to the sites you just posted and my views still stand" and this is your right not to be convinced and your right not embrace islam as you'll see in the following lines talking about the "islam by sword" thing.

"You can't possibly be telling me that the entirity of Al-Quaida, Wahabbis and other terror MISUNDERTOOD KORAN..." unfortunatly they did, that fact you couldn't get and many others too, A FACT THAT ANY NORMAL PERSON SHOULD REALIZE, if quran orders its followers to be terrorists so 1 in every 4 people on this earth will become a terrorist, i guess you realize the destruction the earth would have been in!!!!!! i accept your debate about islam concerning anything except the terrorism thing because in my humble opinion it doesn't worth debate because as i said if islam orders for terrorism then you would have found 1.5 BILLTION sucide bomber on this earth which means the END of human kind.

the words you are saying about the spread of islam by sowrd is a DOUBLE JOKE, PLEASE READ MORE BEFORE EMBRACING YOURSELF, here are the undeniable facts
1- Quran Said 18:29 ,(and say:"the truth is from your lord." then whose ever wills, let him believe; and whose ever wills let him disblieve.)
2- Quran Said 2:256 ,(there is no compulsion in religion. Verily, the right path has become distinct from the wrong path)
3- apart from the quran, i have another logical proof, do you know where is the largest muslim population? it is in indonesia, do you know how did islam reach indonesia and malaysia where, 215 MILLION muslim live today, if you don't know let me tell you, islam travelled to indonesia and malaysia through muslim arabs and indian traders, do you know what does the word trader mean? just in case you don't know, trader means a person who trades goods for money, it doesn't mean a person who carries a sword to force people into his ideas or religion, so the biggest muslim complex on earth embraced islam because they saw the well mannared, honest and respectful muslim traders who practice the right islam and who made the islamic civilization.
i guess these are enough evidences that islam didn't spread by sword and i have more if you want.

"we are deeply offended by Islamic Scripture, which stands against everything we stand for: human rights and liberties, democracy, education, freedom of speech and choice..."
let us take them one by one and see if muslims really jelous because islam doesn't have the things you mentioned above.
human rights : they are many but enough to say that islam banned the slavery which was DEEP in the arabian society then.
democracy : prophet mohammed told muslims to choose the one who rules them from four persons by elections after his death, of course it wasn't electronic elections, but muslims were few thousands by that time so it wasn't that hard to know whome the most wanted by people, you may say that all the islamic civilization depended on inheriting ruleing after this, but this wasn't mentioned by mohamed, IT IS VERY CLEAR that none of prophet mohammed sons came into power or ruled muslims.
education : i guess i have talked enough about education in islam in my previous posts.
freedom of speech and choice : the sunna, stands for the life of prophet mohammed and also stands for the words he said, the sunna is full situations where prophet mohamed asked for the opinion of muslims, and always accepted thier opinion, as long as it is the majority, although it was opposite to his, but of course this was in situations that doesn't involve putting a rule in the islamic religion because all the rules come from god either in the quran or on the words of his prophet, DON'T YOU SEE THAT THIS IS FREEDOME OF SPEECH AND CHOICE??!!!

please tell me who you are, just curious, athiest, jew, christian, ...etc?

alsalamo alikom

Posted by: MuslimForEver at December 5, 2006 7:34 AM

from above:

"1- prophet mohammed said , ”seeking education is a must for every muslim(male or female)
2- prophet mohammed said , ”seek education from the time you are born to the time you die”
3- prophet mohammed said , ”seek education even if it was in china” , note: china was the most far place at these time so what prophet mohammed meant is to seek education where ever it be near or far.
4- prophet mohammed said , ”the true muslim should seek knowledge even if it wasn’t in the muslim countries”

AND JUST WHAT DO ISLAMIC TEACHERS TEACH?

From a Daniel Pipes article:
• New York City: An investigation by the New York Daily News in 2003 found that books used in the city’s Muslim schools “are rife with inaccuracies, sweeping condemnations of Jews and Christians, and triumphalist declarations of Islam’s supremacy.”
• Los Angeles: The Omar Ibn Khattab Foundation donated 300 Korans (titled The Meaning of the Holy Quran) to the city school district in 2001 that within months had to be pulled from school libraries because of its antisemitic commentaries. One footnote reads: “The Jews in their arrogance claimed that all wisdom and all knowledge of Allah was enclosed in their hearts…Their claim was not only arrogance but blasphemy.”
• Ajax, Ontario, 50 kilometers east of Toronto: The Institute of Islamic Learning is a Canadian emulation of the extremist Deobandi madrassahs of Pakistan. It focuses exclusively on religious topics, has students memorize the Koran, demands total segregation from the Canadian milieu, and requires complete gender separation. Former students complained about the school’s cult-like devotion to its head, Abdul Majid Khan, and complained that it “twisted religion and used it to its own benefit.”

HOW ABOUT SCHOOLING IN AFGHANISTAN? (FROM A REUTERS ARTICLE)

"Mullah Nawab was teaching pupils at his madrassah how to use explosives and mines," Paktia's governor told Reuters....

A school in neighboring Zabul province was recently forced to close because of threats from Taliban elements angered by its modern curriculum

OR
Two Islamic groups say a private Saudi school in Alexandria is teaching first-graders an extreme version of Islam that fosters contempt for other religions, a charge denied by the Saudi government, which creates curriculum for such schools.

FROM AP:

From AP, with thanks to Ali Dashti:

BANGKOK - Islamic teachers in southern Thailand are 'brainwashing' students and there will be no quick end to the Muslim insurgency there, Thailand's Prime Minister said yesterday, while police reported four more slayings in the region's latest bloodshed.
Several Muslim teachers have been arrested recently because of suspicions that they may be encouraging students to take part in the rebellion and many militants killed in fighting have been teenagers studying at religious schools.

'The problem is difficult to resolve because the religious teachers have been brainwashing people with the wrong interpretation of the Quran,' Mr Thaksin Shinawatra told journalists in Bangkok.

'It will take time to resolve the problem.'

THESE ARTICLE ARE TYPICAL OF THE EDUCATION MUSLIM STUDENTS ARE GETTING,

WHAT HAPPENS IT TEACHERS AND/OR STUDENTS DO NOT TOW THE PARTY LINE?

In Pattani, suspected Islamic militants gunned down a 48-year-old school director inside his parked car then set fire to the bullet-riddled vehicle, the federation said.
The victim was the 60th teacher killed during three years of unrest in the south, where more than 1,600 people have been killed in the almost daily violence since January 2004.

OR

BANGKOK - Four suspected Muslim militants on Monday gunned down a teacher in front of a classroom filled with his terrified students, radio reports said.
Prasarn Makchu, 48, died with a chalk still in his hand, said Thai Radio 98.

OR

PATTANI, Thailand : Three Buddhists including a mute labourer were shot and killed and teachers' homes were attacked in southern Thailand, police said, as authorities vowed to boost security funding to counter rampaging violence.

THESE STORIES ARE TOO NUMEROUS AND THEY ARE WORLD WIDE.

ISLAMIC EDUCATION CAN ONLY BE ISLAMIC EDUCATION , FAILURE TO LEARN WILL COST YOU YOUR LIFE, FAILURE TO TEACH IT WILL COST YOU YOUR LIFE.

MAYBE MUSLIMS ARE SEEKING EDUCATION, BUT WHAT ARE THEY LEARNING AND WHAT ARE THEY BEING FORBIDDEN TO LEARN???

Posted by: exsgtbrown at December 5, 2006 8:55 AM

MuslimForEver... you responded back to me with a lot of words but you don't go to the central question about circular reasoning. Why did Mohammed try to prove his point about deficiencies of women with words that came out of his own mouth? that is not proof by any definition and is not logical. You talk about alot of other things in your replies like the website you link to, but you never address the central issue.

On the idea that Muslims worship the same god as Christians and Jews... sorry but this is simply not true. When you compare the commands of Allah, his attitudes and his sense of justice to the words of Yahweh and Jesus in the new and old testaments you will find they are actually opposites. Allah is not the same thing as Yahweh in anything... A person reading and comparing both texts doesn't have to believe either one, but they can see that the two gods do not come from the same source. Do we need to cite both sources to show this?

you say:
all the rules come from god either in the quran or on the words of his prophet, !

And like the jews of yathrib I say: "prove it"

you say:
DON'T YOU SEE THAT THIS IS FREEDOME OF SPEECH AND CHOICE??!!

I say: no, show me how the sunnah is freedom of speech and choice for anyone but Mohammed.

Posted by: A_Plague_on_Both_Houses at December 5, 2006 10:01 AM

alslamo alikom

dear exsgtbrown : i guess you didn't understand the word i have been repeating all over my comments and i'll repeat it once more for you, STUDY ISLAM DON'T STUDY MUSLIMS, and who are you talking about, Taliban!!! the most extremist muslim group in the world!!! you pointed to other people in asia not taliban only i understand that. but the main reason i participated in this website is that i want to prove that islam is a beutiful religion who gained bad reputation because of the muslims who doesn't practice it correctly.
you know, one of the islamic converts that worte some bookes about islam, named himself mohammed asad after he converted to islam, he said,"i thank god who guided me to islam before i see muslims" as you may notice he meant that islam is beutiful but muslims are not because they simply don't correctly practice it nowadays, i am not saying that to you to make you badly treat any muslim because he is bad, i just wanted you to know that the groups you are talking about are still not the Majority.

alslamo alikom

Posted by: MuslimForEver at December 5, 2006 10:06 AM

MuslimForEver - I've been studying islam itself since March of 2002 and that is why I say:

On the idea that Muslims worship the same god as Christians and Jews... sorry but this is simply not true. When you compare the commands of Allah, his attitudes and his sense of justice to the words of Yahweh and Jesus in the new and old testaments you will find they are actually opposites. Allah is not the same thing as Yahweh in anything... A person reading and comparing both texts doesn't have to believe either one, but they can see that the two gods do not come from the same source. Do we need to cite both sources to show this?

Posted by: A_Plague_on_Both_Houses at December 5, 2006 10:11 AM

"O womenfolk, you should ask for forgiveness for I saw you in bulk amongst the dwellers of Hell." A wise lady said: Why is it, Mohammed, that women comprise the bulk of the inhabitants of Hell? Mohammed observed: "You curse too much and are ungrateful to your spouses. You lack common sense, fail in religion and rob the wisdom of the wise." Upon this the woman remarked: What is wrong with our common sense? Mohammed replied, "Your lack of common sense can be determined from the fact that the evidence of two women is equal to one man. That is a proof."
--- Muslim Book 1 Number 142

MuslimForEver - read the above... Mohammed uses his own command 'evidence from women is worth 1/2 of evidence from a man' as a fact That came from his own mouth. No one ever testified they saw an angel Gabriel or heard Gabriel or Allah speaking. Witnesses were in the same place as Mohammed and saw him do something like go into a seizure... then they listened to what Mohammed said... MOHAMMED. Sometimes what Mohammed said was so blatantly 'made up' it really shows just how much mental control Mohammed had over the desert people. Like the time when he came out of one and told his wives that Allah said it was good for him to screw his wife's slave ( Mariam ) and if the wives didn't like Mariam getting some of Mohammed's sex that allah might just replace the complaining wives with better and more religious wives.

Why would an all powerful god lower himself to mediate in a soap-opera drama like this? Allah is a sex referee? think about it. Mohammed made up outrageous lies and the desert people ate it up. Think about it.

Posted by: A_Plague_on_Both_Houses at December 5, 2006 10:24 AM

Muslimforever,

“…what i wanted to say is the reason Muslim extremists popped up these days is the oppression Muslims suffer in many parts of the world, because despair always leads to violence.”

I was hoping you were above the “We are terrorists because you made us that way” augment. Sorry, it doesn’t fly with me anymore. The hijackers that murdered 3000+ innocent American Citizens on 9/11 came from educated affluent backgrounds. They were BRAINWASHED evil morons. To me one of the main differences between the Judeao/Christian Philosophy and that of Islam is that the former is based on overcoming the world and Islam is based on submitting to it. For example, when the Jews suffered their Diaspora and could not own land, they became very skilled and educated in things like medicine, law, and finance. When Scotch Protestants were prohibited from owning land they pretty much did the same thing, and founded modern engineering. Instead of sitting around whining about it and looking for vengeance, these cultures overcame their situation. I know you hate to admit this, but just about every modern convenience that Muslims enjoy today is a product of Western Civilization and its overcoming adversity philosophy. So your argument of despair always leading to violence is a washout in Western Civilization.

As for slavery in the Gulf States, there are oodles of documented websites out there that are quite factual. Women are lied to about what they will be doing, and when they get to their destination their passport is taken away and they are underpaid or sent to some underground brothel. I am sure it’s happening here, and with the recent publicity of that Saudi national in Colorado, it’s happening more than we’d like to think…we just need to be able to catch these bastards. But the big difference is that we abhor it and as the convicted Saudi stated, it’s part of his culture. And where would the Gulf States be without oil and cheap Pakistani labor? They’d still be living in tents. All those skyscrapers in places like Dubai were built with cheap Pakistani labor…no unions allowed over there.

As for the Bible, if you ever have the courage to read it objectively, I recommend reading the New Testament first. The New Testament was written for Gentiles, while the Old Testament was written for Jews. You get a much better understanding of the Bible if you approach it in this manner. Get George Lamsa’s translation. Mr. Lamsa used the original Aramaic texts and corrected much of the translational confusion in the King James Version.