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"Hello from Fjordman. Here comes the second part of the essay, which will consist of at least five parts, explaining exactly why Islam is incompatible with democracy. It is published in cooperation with the Gates of Vienna blog. The first part is here."
According to Salim Mansur, associate professor of political science at the University of Western Ontario, Canada, "Democracy is in a cultural sense an expression of the liberal modern world that situates the individual as the moral center of politics and society. (…) It is the idea of the inalienable rights located in the individual, rights that need to be protected, nurtured, and allowed the fullest unhindered expression that makes democracy so morally distinctive from other cultural systems. From this liberal perspective, the common error about democracy is to view it as a majority system of governance. In a democracy based on individual rights, on the contrary, it is the protection of the rights of minorities and dissidents that reflect the different nature of politics within the larger context of democratic culture."This definition is opposed to an illiberal democracy, which is "similar to what Samuel E. Finer, a professor of politics and government, wrote about in Comparative Government as 'façade democracy,' a bowing of the head to the idea of democracy by the tiny elite of those in power as a means to enhance their legitimacy and perpetuate their authority."
One great obstacle to establishing democracy in this cultural sense in Muslim countries is that Muslims have been taught from birth that non-Muslims can't be expected to enjoy the same kind of rights as Muslims do.
The Wall Street Journal ran a piece entitled "Reviving Mideastern Democracy: We Arabs Need the West's Help to Usher in a New Liberal Age." It was written by Saad Eddin Ibrahim, chairman of the board of the Ibn Khaldun Center for Development Studies in Cairo, who has been jailed several times for his pro-democracy work in Egypt. Mr. Ibrahim thinks the prospects for democracy in the Middle East are surprisingly good:
"In previous decades, authoritative voices said that Germany, Japan, Slavic countries and even Catholic societies would never, could never, be democratic. I am not speaking of popular prejudices here, but of high-level scholarship and expert consensus. Batteries of learned naysayers honestly believed that there was something about German, Japanese or Slavic culture, or about Catholicism, that was fundamentally and unchangeably hostile to democracy and democratic values. . . ."
But in the words of the celebrated 14th century historian Ibn Khaldun himself: "in the Muslim community, the holy war is a religious duty, because of the universalism of the Muslim mission and (the obligation to) convert everybody to Islam either by persuasion or by force." In Islam, says Ibn Khaldun, the person in charge of religious affairs is concerned with "power politics," because Islam is "under obligation to gain power over other nations" (Muqaddimah, trans. Rosenthal, p. 183).
As Robert Spencer commented, "Those are not words of openness, tolerance, and democracy. And they are still widely held in the Muslim world."
Ibn Khaldun wrote about Christians: "We do not think that we should blacken the pages of this book [Muqaddimah] with discussion of their [Christian] dogmas of unbelief. In general, they are well known. All of them are unbelief. This is clearly stated in the noble Koran. To discuss or argue those things with them is not up to us. It is for them to choose between conversion to Islam, payment of the poll tax, or death."
According to Dr. Andrew Bostom in his book The Legacy of Jihad (page 29), "In The Laws of Islamic Governance al-Mawardi (d. 1058), also examines the regulations pertaining to the lands and infidel (i.e., non-Muslim) populations subjugated by jihad. This is the origin of the system of dhimmitude. The native infidel population had to recognize Islamic ownership of their land, submit to Islamic law, and accept payment of the poll tax (jizya). Al-Mawardi highlights the most significant aspect of this consensus view of the jizya in classical Islamic jurisprudence: the critical connection between jihad and payment of the jizya. He notes that "[t]he enemy makes a payment in return for peace and reconciliation." Al-Mawardi then distinguishes two cases: (1) Payment is made immediately and is treated like booty, however "it does, however, not prevent a jihad being carried out against them in the future" (2) Payment is made yearly and will "constitute an ongoing tribute by which their security is established." Reconciliation and security last as long as the payment is made. If the payment ceases, then the jihad resumes."
There are also other limitations on dhimmis. In 2005 it was announced that the first Christian church in Qatar since the 7th century was to be built on land donated by the reform-minded Emir. The church will not have a spire or freestanding cross, in accordance with traditional dhimmi laws where Christians are forbidden to display crosses. Clive Handford, the Nicosia-based Anglican Bishop in Cyprus and the Gulf, said: "We are there as guests in a Muslim country and we wish to be sensitive to our hosts ... but once you're inside the gates it will be quite obvious that you are in a Christian center." Christianity was eradicated from most Gulf Arab states within a few centuries of the arrival of Islam.
Even in Malaysia, one Muslim majority country frequently hailed as "moderate and tolerant," hundreds of Hindu worshippers watched in horror as workers, mostly Muslims, brought down the roof of their temple and smashed the deities that immigrant Indian workers had brought with them. "We are poor and our only comfort is our temples and now we are losing that also," Kanagamah said in Tamil, the language spoken by ethnic Indians who form eight percent of Malaysia's 26 million people and mostly follow Hinduism."The demolitions are indiscriminate, unlawful and against all constitutional guarantees of freedom of worship," according to human rights lawyer P. Uthayakumar. He said temples are demolished by the authorities as illegal structures but the same authorities make it impossible for devotees to get a permit. He cited the case of a Catholic church nearby which got a permit to build a church after 30 years of trying. "What does this say about freedom of worship?" he asked. Well, it says that Muslim authorities are still operating according to the classic provision of the dhimmi laws, that non-Muslims must not build new houses of worship or repair old ones.
According to Sita Ram Goel, Imam Hanifa "had recommended that Hindus, though idolaters, could be accepted as a 'People of the Book' like the Jews, the Christians and the Zoroastrians, and granted the status of zimmis. The Muslim swordsmen and theologians in India happened to follow his school of Islamic law. That enabled them to 'upgrade' the 'crow-faced infidels' of this country to the status of zimmis. Hindus could save their lives and some of their properties, though not their honour and places of worship and pilgrimage, by paying jizyah and agreeing to live under highly discriminative disabilities. The only choice which the other great Imams of Islam - Malik, Shafii and Hanbal [the founders of the four Sunni Islamic schools of jurisprudence] - gave to the Hindus was between Islam and death."
From Western apologists we often hear that the "communal strife" on the Indian subcontinent is "mutual." If this is the case, why is it that in Pakistan non-Muslims have been all but wiped out, and the few remaining Christians and Hindus suffer continuous harassment and abuse. The population of Bangladesh was about thirty percent non-Muslim a few decades ago. Now that number is down to ten percent. Contrast this decline with the fact, due to higher birthrates, the number of Muslims within the Republic of India has actually increased during the same period. Do these statistics indicate "mutual hostility" or simply persecution of infidels?
In Pakistan's Sindh province there is an alarming trend: Muslims kidnap Pakistani Hindu girls and force them to convert to Islam. The worried resident Hindu community has resorted to marrying off their daughters as soon as they are of age. Alternatively, they migrate to India, Canada or other nations. Recently, at least 19 such abductions have occurred in Karachi alone.
"Have you ever heard of an Indian Muslim girl being forced to embrace Hinduism? It's Muslims winning by intimidation. It's Muslims overcoming a culture by threatening it, by abducting young girls so that an entire community moves out or succumbs to the Muslim murderers," human rights activist Hina Jillani says. Hindus and Christians in Pakistan are looked down upon. "That is why they have to take up inferior jobs; their chances of rising in any field are low."
The Muslim superiority syndrome runs deep. In Milestones, the Egyptian Sayyid Qutb writes about "a triumphant state which should remain fixed in the Believer's heart" in the face of every thing. "It means to feel superior to others when weak, few and poor, as well as when strong, many and rich."
"When the Believer scans whatever man, ancient or modern, has known, and compares it with his own law and system, he realizes that all this is like the playthings of children or the searchings of blind men in comparison with the perfect system and the complete law of Islam. And when he looks from his height at erring mankind with compassion and sympathy at its helplessness and error, he finds nothing in his heart except a sense of triumph over error and nonsense. (…) Conditions change, the Muslim loses his physical power and is conquered, yet the consciousness does not depart from him that he is the most superior. If he remains a Believer, he looks upon his conqueror from a superior position. He remains certain that this is a temporary condition which will pass away and that faith will turn the tide from which there is no escape."
Underlying this Muslim supremacist mentality, there is also the idea of Arab supremacy. Again according to Qutb, "What are the Arabs without Islam? What is the ideology that they gave, or they can give to humanity if they abandon Islam? The only ideology the Arabs advanced for mankind was the Islamic faith which raised them to the position of human leadership. If they forsake it they will no longer have any function or role to play in human history."
Of course, there are those who would dismiss Sayyid Qutb as "an extremist," since his writings such as Milestones and especially In the Shade of the Qur'an have inspired countless Jihadists since his execution at the hands of Gamal Abdel Nasser's regime in 1966. But Qutb's ideas about Muslim supremacy are on firm Islamic grounds.
According to Hugh Fitzgerald, "within Islam, a supposedly universalist religion where all Muslims in the ummah are equal, there is a special place for the Arabs." The Koran is written in Arabic, and "was delivered to, given to, revealed to, the Arabs, that best of people. That best of men, Muhammad, was an Arab, and so were the Companions. The Qur'an itself should ideally not be read in any language other than Arabic (the Arabic in which it was written, not in any simplified or updated version). Qur'anic recitation is in Arabic. The students in Pakistan or Indonesia or elsewhere who pass their young lives memorizing Qur'anic passages are essentially memorizing Arabic, a language that they do not know at all, or understand most imperfectly. Yet it is 7th century Arabs, real or imaginary, who must serve as a guide to existence. (…) In Saudi Arabia there is apartheid: the signs 'Muslim' and 'Non-Muslim' are everywhere. But 'Muslims' are further divided into Arab (first class) and non-Arab (second class). This has not escaped the attention of the many Muslim non-Arabs who live in Saudi Arabia -- or at least not the attention of all of them."
This Arab supremacy is underestimated by infidels as a weapon against Islam: "Part of weakening Islam is to show many Muslims that Islam was simply an Arab invention and export, a poisoned chalice that has lain low higher, and superior civilizations. This is likely to resonate especially in Iran among those who have had their fill of the Islamic Republic of Iran -- that is, every thinking and morally aware person in Iran."
In Morocco, activists complain that Berber influence in political and economic life remains limited. "We're not Arabs, bring out the real history," chanted hundreds of Moroccan Berbers during Labor Day marches with slogans in their Tamazight language and banners written in Tifinagh, the Berber script. Berbers are the original inhabitants of North Africa, before the Arabs invaded in the seventh century. The Moroccan constitution says the country is Arab and Islam is its religion. The proportion of Berbers is not officially known but independent sources say they represent the majority of the population. The total population of Berbers in the world is estimated at twenty-five million, mainly concentrated in Algeria, Libya, Mali, Mauritania, Niger and Tunisia.
Islamic ideas about inequality are already being exported to the West. Two men were killed in a row involving a group of second generation immigrants in Copenhagen, Denmark, in 2005. According to imam Abu Laban (who was later responsible for whipping up hatred against his country of residence because of the now famous cartoons of Muhammad in Danish newspaper Jyllands-Posten) the thirst for revenge could be cooled if 200,000 kroner were paid by the family of the man who fired the shots. 200,000 Danish kroner is approximately the value of 100 camels, a number based on the example of Muhammad himself. The idea of blood money originates from the Koran, 2.178: O ye who believe! Retaliation is prescribed for you in the matter of the murdered; the freeman for the freeman, and the slave for the slave, and the female for the female. And for him who is forgiven somewhat by his (injured) brother, prosecution according to usage and payment unto him in kindness.
Politiken, a left-leaning, intellectual newspaper championing multiculturalism in Denmark, argued that the principle of blood money might be worth considering. Luckily, they were met by an outcry from angry citizens. There are at least two major problems with this Islamic "justice." The first is that it is settled between families, tribes or clans, not in a justice system administered by the authorities where it is a matter concerning the individuals involved, not the entire clan. We had similar tribal vendettas in the West at one time, but we left this practice behind a long time ago, as Muslims should have done. The biggest problem will come if this tribal system were to undermine the Western justice system to the extent that Westerners, too, would revert to tribal law in order to protect themselves.
Many commentators in Denmark failed to understand the worst part of the blood money concept. Not only is it pre-modern and anti-individualistic, but the compensation to be paid is fundamentally inegalitarian. Muslim men are the only full members of the Islamic community. All others have fewer rights due to their religion, their sex or their slave status.
The rates for blood money mirror this apartheid system. A Saudi court has ruled that the value of one woman's life is equal to that of one man's leg. The court ordered a Saudi to pay a Syrian expatriate blood money after he killed the man's wife and severed both his legs in a car accident six months earlier. The court ordered $13,300 compensation for the man's wife, and the same amount for each of his legs. Under Islamic law, the life of an ex-Muslim is worth nothing at all. He is a traitor, an apostate, and can be killed with impunity.
In the April 9, 2002 issue, The Wall Street Journal published the concept of blood money in Saudi Arabia. If a person has been killed or caused to die by another, the latter has to pay blood money or compensation as follows:
*100,000 riyals if the victim is a Muslim man
* 50,000 riyals if a Muslim woman
* 50,000 riyals if a Christian man
* 25,000 riyals if a Christian woman
* 6,666 riyals if a Hindu man
* 3,333 riyals if a Hindu womanIn a Saudi school textbook, after the intolerance was supposedly removed, the 10th-grade text on jurisprudence said: "Blood money for a free infidel. [Its quantity] is half of the blood money for a male Muslim, whether or not he is 'of the book' or not 'of the book' (such as a pagan, Zoroastrian, etc).
Blood money for a woman: Half of the blood money for a man, in accordance with his religion. The blood money for a Muslim woman is half of the blood money for a male Muslim, and the blood money for an infidel woman is half of the blood money for a male infidel."
As Ali Sina says, "According to this hierarchy, a Muslim man's life is worth 33 times that of a Hindu woman. This hierarchy is based on the Islamic definition of human rights and is rooted in the Quran and Sharia (Islamic law). How can we talk of democracy when the concept of equality in Islam is inexistent?"
He thinks that the Islamic system of government is akin to Fascism:
• It is marked by centralization of authority under a supreme leader vested with divine clout.
• It has stringent socioeconomic control over all aspects of all its subjects irrespective of their faith.
• It suppresses its opposition through terror and censorship.
• It has a policy of belligerence towards non-believers.
• It practices religious apartheid.
• It disdains reason.
• It is imperialistic.
• It is oppressive.
• It is dictatorial and
• It is controlling.According to Sina, "Islam is political and political Islam is Fascism."
At Ryerson University in Toronto, Canada, Muslims are displaying their superiority syndrome.
The largest student group on campus, the Muslim Students' Association, has monopolized use of the multifaith room. Eric Da Silva, president of the Catholic Student Association, said the group looked into using the room for mass but was told by RSU front desk staff that the room was "permanently booked" by Muslim students. "No one is trying to take away the space from the Muslims, we just don't want to be stepping on their toes," said Da Silva. He stressed that the group found another space to hold mass and the conflict was quickly resolved. The space, which was divided to separate males from females, had rows taped on the floor for prayer and Islamic decorations adorning the walls, was only accommodating to Muslims. A Canadian Federation of Students task force tackling cultural and religious discrimination was brought to campus by members of the MSA, but it only addressed the problem of Islamophobia.
Raymond Ibrahim, a research librarian at the US Library of Congress, warns in the Los Angeles Times against giving in to Muslim supremacists:"In the days before Pope Benedict XVI's visit to the Hagia Sophia complex in Istanbul, Muslims and Turks expressed fear, apprehension and rage. 'The risk,' according to Turkey's independent newspaper Vatan, 'is that Benedict will send Turkey's Muslims and much of the Islamic world into paroxysms of fury if there is any perception that the pope is trying to re-appropriate a Christian center that fell to Muslims.' Apparently making the sign of the cross or any other gesture of Christian worship in Hagia Sophia constitutes such a sacrilege. Built in the 6th century, Hagia Sophia - Greek for Holy Wisdom' - was Christendom's greatest and most celebrated church. After parrying centuries of jihadi thrusts from Arabs, Constantinople - now Istanbul - was finally sacked by Turks in 1453, and Hagia Sophia's crosses were desecrated, its icons defaced."
The Turks didn't have to worry. The Pope behaved in perfect dhimmi fashion during his visit to the formerly Greek, Christian territory now known as Turkey. Ibrahim believes that "The West constantly goes out of its way to confirm such convictions. By criticizing itself, apologizing and offering concessions - all things the Islamic world has yet to do - the West reaffirms that Islam has a privileged status in the world."
This blindness to the threat posed by the ingrained Islamic Superiority Syndrome has huge consequences when trying to export "democracy" to Islamic countries such as Iraq.
In September 2005, the patriarch of Baghdad for the Chaldeans told Iraqi officials about Catholic bishops' fears that the constitution "opens the door widely" to discrimination against non-Muslims. Article 2.1(a) stated: "No law can be passed that contradicts the undisputed rules of Islam." The bishops' statement concluded: "This opens the door widely to passing laws that are unjust towards non-Muslims." Glyn Ford, British MEP, joined former Tribune editor Mark Seddon and Andy Darmoo, head of Save the Assyrians, to sound the alarm on behalf of Assyrian Christians: "Prevented from voting in the elections, in recent months many have had their land occupied and stolen, their churches firebombed and their families attacked. Isn't it time that the international community began championing the rights of Assyrians and other minorities before it is too late?"
A group of Muslim men seized a seven year old Mandaean boy, from an ancient Gnostic sect in Iraq, doused him in petrol and set him alight. As the child was being burnt to death the Muslims were running around shouting, "Burn the dirty infidel!" "Many women physicians have been killed, women in the police forces, reporters and journalists," Rajaa al-Khuzai, president of the Iraqi National Council of Women said. Now "women are very easy targets," especially high-profile women such as herself, she added. This oppression of women and non-Muslims is in full accordance with Islamic sharia and was depressingly predictable.
Although Christians made up less than four per cent of the population they formed the largest groups of refugees arriving in Jordan's capital Amman in the first quarter of 2006. In Syria, forty-four percent of Iraqi asylum-seekers were recorded as Christian since December 2003. They were fleeing killings, kidnappings and death threats. "In the schools the children now say that a Christian is a kaffir [infidel]." The Catholic bishop of Baghdad, Andreos Abouna, was quoted as saying that half of all Iraqi Christians have fled the country since the 2003 US-led invasion. Some warned that in twenty years all Christians in Iraq will be gone. "It was easy for the Americans and the British to have supported us when the churches were bombed - it was a historic opportunity - but they did nothing. If they had supported us financially, for example, we could have protected all the Christian families in Mosul."
U.S. President George W. Bush said he would accept it if Iraqis voted to create an Islamic fundamentalist government in democratic elections. "I will be disappointed, but democracy is democracy."
Is it really equivalent, Mr. Bush?
This brings us back to Plato's criticism of democracy as just an advanced form of mob rule. And without any constraints, checks and balances, that definition is correct. Benjamin Franklin said that "Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote!" This is why he and the other Founding Fathers wanted the USA to be a constitutional Republic, not a pure democracy.
It is strange that the United States wanted to export to Iraq a naïve concept of democracy, one that provided too few rights and guarantees for individuals and minorities, one that their own Founding Fathers had specifically rejected for precisely that reason. And this did not even include an assessment of Islam, in which harassing and persecuting minorities and suppressing individual liberty is a matter of principle.
Non-Muslims and women in Iraq are now paying with their lives for that naïve mistake.
Posted by Robert at December 11, 2006 7:24 AM
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Democracy and Islam will NEVER be compatible. Fjordman makes it clear-Islam's "master race" mentality is just like that of the Nazis and its conflict with Democracy brought about WW2.
Interesting how Fjordman mentions Ibn Khaldun-I've never heard of him. He must be a well kept secret that Muslims want to keep under wraps as much as possible-if infidels point out this man and his thinking it would prove rather embarrassing. After all, the mythical moderate Muslims always try to play down Islam's injunction to be violent toward the infidels. From now on, my response will be "Khaldun!"
Posted by: ISLAMSFORLOSERS
at December 11, 2006 9:00 AM
In Iraq there's a sect that people accuse of worshipping a demon, but in fact these people claim they are actually appeasing an insane Creator. They clearly need to hear the good news about Jesus' victory over him on Calvery. They are, of course, in the heartland of Jehovah's greatest (and ultimately fruitless) counter move.
Mandaeans are really interesting. If memory serves they're Jewish-Gnostic disciples of John the Baptiser.
Posted by: pneumatikon
at December 11, 2006 9:53 AM
ISLAMSFORLOSERS: I only heard of him a month or so ago myself. I quote him in my signature line on another site and they do NOT appreciate it!
some links (pro or con, I do not know):
http://www.muslimphilosophy.com/ik/klf.htm
http://www.ummah.net/history/scholars/KHALDUN.html
Posted by: Gary
at December 11, 2006 10:00 AM
The Islamic concept of "blood money", and the comparative worth of different kinds of people, comes from the essentially Statist foundation of Islam.
In Islam, the individual is the property of the Group, and blood money compensates the Group for the loss of the services of a member. Muslim men are more economically valuable than women because they are the fighters who go out to conquer and bring in loot and slaves
Posted by: PapaBear
at December 11, 2006 10:09 AM
Gary-
Thanks for the links. I'm not surprised your mentioning of Khaldun gets shot down. It's similar to mentioning Himmler to Holocaust deniers.
at December 11, 2006 10:14 AM
"Fjordman: Is Islam Compatible with Democracy? part 2"
It's still--like last time--a NO!
Posted by: EliasAlucard
at December 11, 2006 11:15 AM
Excellent work Fjordman. As usual.
Posted by: Sasha
at December 11, 2006 11:27 AM
Ask politicians:
The Koran was written down in 656 AD under a commission created by the Caliphs. The Muslims attacked the Christians and Jews in the Eastern Roman Empire in 633 AD and were occupying them and attacking more. Their custom was to give over a city to the soldiers for 3 days to sack and loot and sell the Christians and Jews as slaves. Do you believe that the Koran in these conditions actually commanded peace towards Christians and Jews while the Caliphate was engaged in telling Muslims to kill and subjugate them?
If the Koran upheld and commanded what the Caliphs were doing in 656 AD towards Christians and Jews, then doesn't that mean it upholds and commands war against Christians and Jews today? When did it switch if it did? Who switched it? How? Who believes it switched?
How can Islam be the religion of peace if the Koran upholds and commands the war and methods of war being used against Christians and Jews by Muslims in 656 AD?
How can Islam be different than the Koran?
If the Koran is wartime propaganda for the type of war conducted in 656 AD, who can Islam be a religion of peace towards Christians and Jews?
When did the Koran change? Who changed it? Who believes that? When did Islam stop being the same as the Koran? Who stopped it being the same? Who believes that?
Posted by: Old Atlantic
at December 11, 2006 11:50 AM
Fjordman,
most of your article is up to your usual excellent standard, BUT (you just knew there was a BUT coming) there was one thing you said that is questionable:
"It is strange that the United States wanted to export to Iraq a naïve concept of democracy, one that provided too few rights and guarantees for individuals and minorities, one that their own Founding Fathers had specifically rejected for precisely that reason."
It's not "strange" at all, in the context of how the U.S. has tried to export what it calls "democracy" in the past.
During the Cold War, the U.S. Government, and most of its liberal opinion leaders, frequently confused "democracy" with "self-determination." The U.S. frequently maintained it would support free and fair elections in foreign countries, even if the people chose to vote themselves into Communist slavery. The only time we got it right--and ironically have been pillaged by the Leftist intelligentsia as a result--was in the 1950's, when the U.S. opposed elections in Vietnam because it calculated (correctly) that the Communists in the North would outvote the democrats in the South and deliver the entire country to Soviet Communist slavery.
Leftists in the West, who set the pace of America's intellectual agenda, enthusiastically supported "free elections" in Vietnam (because they knew the Communists would win). They also supported "free elections" in Nicaragua (because they assumed the Sandinistas would win). It didn't bother them that totalitarians would take power thru the ballot box as a result.
If totalitarians are liable to gain power and crush individual liberty, then they must be denied the tools of "democracy," such as free and fair elections, which they can use to gain power behind a facade of legalism, giving them sufficient legitimacy in the international community as to make them unchallengeable.
This is a lesson that the West didn't get right during the Cold War, and it isn't right now either.
at December 11, 2006 11:54 AM
Is Islam Compatible with Democracy?..
Islam is not compatible with anything human let alone democracy..
In fact, islam is not compatible with anything animal either.
According to islam, the dog is a filthy creature so it must be either chased away (usually by throwing stones or by kicking).
That is why islamic countries are far from being popular for the animal right groups in the west..
Killing stray dogs and cats has always become commonplace in muslim countries.
In the slums surrounding large metropolitan centers, the children are initiated to the art of slaughtering, first by killing and torturing stray animals..
Islam, the religion of peace...
peace my ass..
Islam is the religion of piss..
at December 11, 2006 1:41 PM
What about atheists?
Posted by: sandy
at December 11, 2006 1:50 PM
Off topic:
Islam Based on Epileptic Prophecies, says Book From Iran-Native Neuropsychologist
Posted by: ummahnewslinks
at December 11, 2006 2:18 PM
Not only no , but HELL NO!!!
Posted by: OLD SARGE
at December 11, 2006 2:22 PM
and where are we now: (an old quote)
A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves money from the public treasure. From that moment on the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most money from the public treasury, with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy followed by a dictatorship. The average age of the world's great civilizations has been two hundred years. These nations have progressed through the following sequence: from bondage to spiritual faith, from spiritual faith to great courage, from courage to liberty, from liberty to abundance, from abundance to selfishness, from selfishness to complacency from complacency to apathy, from apathy to dependency, from dependency back to bondage."
Posted by: exsgtbrown
at December 11, 2006 2:23 PM
"What about atheists?"
You free to follow your own beliefs, also."
I say, live and let live!
We're all God's li'l chillun!
Allat
at December 11, 2006 2:43 PM
Another child raped by an Asian in England:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/manchester/6170279.stm
at December 11, 2006 2:43 PM
This is off-topic but is another proof that Rosie O'Donnell is plain stupid. She insults other minority groups as well as defends terrorists by saying "they're mothers and fathers too."
Asian Leaders Angered by Rosie O'Donnell's 'Ching Chong' Comments
Monday , December 11, 2006
By Sara Bonisteel
From http://www.foxnews.com/printer_friendly_story/0,3566,235842,00.html
NEW YORK — Note to Rosie O'Donnell: Stick to singsong.
"The View" co-host is in hot water for using the expression "ching chong" to describe Chinese people talking about Danny DeVito's drunken appearance on her show.
"The fact is that it's news all over the world. That you know, you can imagine in China it's like: 'Ching chong … ching chong. Danny DeVito, ching chong, chong, chong, chong. Drunk. 'The View.' Ching chong," O'Donnell said on a Dec. 5 episode of "The View."
The statement didn't sit well with John C. Liu, a New York City councilman, who fired off a letter to "View" co-host Barbara Walters.
"The 'ching-chong' bit is not a trivial matter," Liu told FOXNews.com. "It really hits a raw nerve for many people in the community — many like myself, who grew up with these kinds of taunts. We all know that it never ends at the taunts."
Liu isn't the only one offended.
The Asian American Journalists Association called O'Donnell's comments a "mockery" that gives "the impression that [Asian Americans] are a group that is substandard to English-speaking people."
Liu said his office has received complaints from around the New York area following the appearance. He directed his letter to Walters instead of O'Donnell because as producer of the show, he said, she ought to know better.
"It's just stupidity, and it's stupidity that justifies a response," Liu said of O'Donnell's behavior, adding the comments came "from someone who has been indignant herself when it comes to comments made by other people where she has perceived it as being negative against a particular community."
In November, O'Donnell made up with Kelly Ripa, co-host of "Live With Regis and Kelly," after accusing her of homophobia for pushing Clay Aiken's hand away from her mouth on the program.
O'Donnell remains unfazed.
"She's a comedian in addition to being a talk show co-host," Cindi Berger, O'Donnell's spokeswoman, said in a statement. "I certainly hope that one day they will be able to grasp her humor."
On Dec. 8, O'Donnell wrote in her blog "it was not my intent to mock." She clarified her position on Dec. 10, calling the bit "comedy."
"I do many accents and probably will continue to," she wrote. "My mom in law impression offends some southerners. What can u do? I come in peace."
O'Donnell is not the first comedian to raise the ire of the Asian-American community.
In 2001, Sarah Silverman told a joke on "Late Night With Conan O'Brien" that had the punch line "I love Chinks."
The NBC program issued an apology to Guy Aoki, the president of the Media Action Network for Asian Americans, following Silverman's appearance.
Liu is still waiting for an apology for O'Donnell's comments.
"I think an acknowledgement that it was a mistake would be very much appreciated by the community," he said.
at December 11, 2006 3:14 PM
As another question for Muslims or politicians, did the caliphs who attacked the Eastern Roman Empire in 633 AD and didn't give it back after that act appropriately according to Islam?
If they want Israel to give back, in their terms, Palestine, shouldn't the caliphs have given back Palestine in 656 AD to the Eastern Roman Empire?
Shouldn't they give it back now? Didn't the Caliphate, the Ottoman Empire, have an obligation to give it back when it expired in the 1920's?
"The Five Rightly Guided Caliphs or The Five Righteous Caliphs (الخلفاء الراشدون translit: al-Khulafā’ur-Rāshidūn) is a term used in Sunni Islam to refer to the first five caliphs that ruled after the death of the Prophet Muhammad. In the order of succesion, they are:
* Abu Bakr
* Umar ibn al-Khattab
* Uthman ibn Affan
* Ali ibn Abi Talib
* Hassan ibn Ali
"
"They are called so because they have been seen as model Muslim leaders by Sunni. This terminology came into a general use around the world, since Sunni Islam has been the dominant Islamic tradition, and for a long time it has been considered the most authoritative source of information about Islam in the Western world. At the same time in Shi'a Islam the first three of the four are usurpers. See the article "Succession to Muhammad" and "The first four Sunni Caliphs and the Sunnah" for detailed discussions of the issue."
If these caliphs acted rightly, then Islam does support the attack and occupation of the Eastern Roman Empire that started in 633 AD.
at December 11, 2006 3:33 PM
We can see why some Muslims react with violence to these issues. There is no logically consistent answer for them to the above questions.
They have to stop the discussion, because discussion of the facts leads to a conclusion that Islam is violent, that it advocates violence, and that its central historical events are violence against the Eastern Roman Empire in 633 AD, the Western superpower.
The Caliphate or some proxy has attacked the Western superpower, whatever it was, Byzantium, France, Austria, England, America etc. in almost every century from the 7th to the 21st century.
It doesn't take special knowledge of the Koran or Arabic. The historical facts alone lead to questions they can't answer without admitting that Islam is violent, that it teaches and upholds violence against the Western superpower, in every age, and against Christians and Jews in every age, including the present.
Posted by: Old Atlantic
at December 11, 2006 3:50 PM
If each of a Muslim man's legs is worth that of a Muslim woman, and a Muslim man only has two legs, is Muslim woman worth more than a Muslim male bilateral leg amputee?
2 MW = 1 MM = 2 MM legs
1 MM - 2 MM legs = 0
at December 11, 2006 4:00 PM
The translation of 'jizya' is NOT 'poll tax'
It is 'protection money'.
Posted by: Aardvark
at December 11, 2006 4:25 PM
"What about atheists"
Two choices, the same choices that pagans have.
Accept Islam (i.e. Shahada and convert)
or Die.
While at it.. I'm thinking of all of those kaffiri, like Tom Fox - the "Christian" Peacemaker, who were shot and not beheaded by their muslim captors.
There was one group of Nepalese drivers (12 in all) one was beheaded the other ll shot in the head. I suspect that the one beheaded had stood by his guns and refused to "accept Islam".
I suspect that a kaffir who becomes Muslim (What would a verb for Shahada be) can escape death by beheading, and if he refuses to accept Islam (Shahada) then he is beheaded.
Posted by: Nariz
at December 11, 2006 4:31 PM
"What about atheists?"
As near as I can tell, according to Islam, "atheist" = "toast".
Posted by: USBeast
at December 11, 2006 4:52 PM
As near as I can tell, according to Islam, "atheist" = "toast".
Oh that just pops!
Posted by: pneumatikon
at December 11, 2006 5:05 PM
Hmmm. I wonder what the Islamic community would think of this proposal:
Israel is recognized as a state free from aggression and it's pre-1967 borders recognized.
In return for the West Bank, Israel gives up it's southern most tip from Gaza straight across the southeast to the Jordan border running approximately through Dimona.
Lebanon - initially set up as a Christian country - be re-converted to free country, and Islam is not allowed to be practiced there, under threat of conversion, poll tax or death, and the decision must be made within 10 seconds after it is asked. All Christians, Jews, people of other countries searching for a refuge from all other neighbouring Islamist countries can take refuge there.
A new "neutral" country similar to Switzerland be set up in the current lands and borders of what is the West Bank (Samaria), Goaln Heights, and the Farms, and it is to maintain control and security for itself, clearing out all Muslim and Jewish institutions replacing them with a NEW UNITED NATIONS! :)
This new U.N. will then be the vanguard of the region and will be much more in tune with the ongoings of the ME and as such may be more accountable for their actions.
I think this would be a good deal for the Muslims as opposed to having been laid waste to and turning the Middle East into a glass bowl.
Posted by: HardBody
at December 11, 2006 5:07 PM
Let's face it, Islam is about submission to the Quran. It is a political ideology wrapped up in a theological package and requires complete and total compliance with its doctrine.
There is no way that Islam can be part of democracy. It's been around far too long and has had a very long time to show that it could work with democracy, and yet we do not have one working example of that yet.
What we do have is many examples of how the opposite is true. Look at the secret Sharia courts in Great Britainistan, look at the state of affairs in Thailand, Philippines and Indonesia. Let's not forget my personal favorite Turkey, secular Turkey, dominated by her generals and no chance of any religious freedom for non-Muslim's at all.
Democracy is an evil in the eyes of Islam.
Niv
Posted by: The fanatic
at December 11, 2006 6:29 PM
The next 2 years are going to be some ride, wonder what Bush will do before he leaves, if anything , maybe hillary will nag the bitches to death!!!
Posted by: OLD SARGE
at December 11, 2006 7:28 PM
Ibn Khaldun is a major Islamic historian and social commentator. His work, and his concept of "assabiya", was of central importance in the recent book by Peter Turchin, War and Peace and War, tracing the history of the rise and fall of agrarian empires. Ibn Khaldun was very well informed and had a long and distinguished career, back in the heyday of Islam.
Posted by: lostlakehiker
at December 11, 2006 8:54 PM
"maybe hillary will nag the bitches to death!!!"
Posted above
Not sure what you meant by that. Hillary was the first one I ever heard say "Tolerance is a virtue". I thought it was a stupid statement and sentiment then, and I still do. Look where it's gotten us.
Posted by: Concerned Citizen
at December 11, 2006 10:01 PM
Not sure what you meant by that. Hillary was the first one I ever heard say "Tolerance is a virtue". I thought it was a stupid statement and sentiment then, and I still do. Look where it's gotten us.
Posted by: Concerned Citizen at December 11, 2006 10:01 PM
All of the brilliant politicians out there, including Queen Hillary, and not a damn one of them studied islamic history. Just one semester of islamic history is sufficient to expose the dangers of islam. Even worse, despite today's constant threats and acts of islamic terrorism, they show no interest whatsoever in learning about the religion and people who are trying to destroy Western Civilization. In fact, they don't even seem to notice. Tolerance is only a virtue when everyone practices it and as we know, everyone does not and everyone never will. To tolerate the intolerant is suicidal, but Hillary wouldn't understand that because Hillary knows nothing about islam, muslims, sharia and the islamic agenda. And she aspires to be president!
The State Department doesn't get it; Congress doesn't get it; the commander-in-chief really doesn't get it; Pelosi, Hillary, Reid, et al are focused on the next presidential election and carry on like we're not even at war! They continue to import millions of muslims, treat CAIR like the Saudi proxies that they are, pseudo-royalty. As soon as Congress reconvenes after Christmas, they'll pass the hate speech law that Conyers' muslim masters have demanded, and the immigration bill that will be the final nail in America's coffin.
I've had enough of the Bush dynasty, the Kennedy dynasty, and the entire slew of Brahmin aristocrats that have controlled American politics for decades. They are so out of touch with mainstream America that they are completely ineffective in government. We must find a new generation of politicians to represent us, and soon.
Posted by: Susanp
at December 12, 2006 1:04 AM
Sandy asks, "What about atheists?"
We are considered the same as polytheists by the Moslems. Hence the wergeld for an atheist would correspond to the Hindu numbers.
But I don't think and atheist would be allowed into Saudi Arabia anyway.
Posted by: tvdog
at December 12, 2006 3:29 AM
A democracy + republic + civilized society is built on several assumptions. Most people who grow up in democracies take these for granted (just like oxygen in the air).
The entire foundation and culture of Islam negates these assumptions.
Muslims generally have massive groupthink and a democracy with more than one political party requires that people think for themselves and not just get orders from Mullahs/imams.
A republic requires that people agree to what is written by HUMANS on a piece of paper. Islam by definition cannot accept the primacy of anything other than its holy books.
All of Islam's qualities, internal and external are on the "hard" side. A civilized democracy requires some "soft" qualities which include compromise, self restraint and an ability to listen long enough before throwing around fatwas.
Most cultures leave a lot of slack in their systems. This predominance of hard qualities is the reason that most culture have to rethink everything when muslims move in. In Canada they had Jewish and Catholic courts which were functioning on some unwritten concepts. The Muslims move in and push their courts with practices which are unacceptable - the end result was that Canada had to abolish the personal courts for everyone. That is why life slowly becomes more and more unpleasant when Muslims move in. Similarly most countries do not have laws against women fully covering themselves because no one thought anyone would do it. Now when muslims move in and start doing it everything has to be rethought from first principles and most people are too intellectually lazy to do it.
This is apart from the general criminal and thuggish mentality that is one of the built in features of the yoots.
Posted by: ik
at December 12, 2006 3:36 AM
The answer this time out is still a resounding 'NO'!
Posted by: pythagoras
at December 12, 2006 3:26 PM
We must find a new generation of politicians to represent us, and soon…. - SusanP
"How about people who are in settings, mosques for example, that may be teaching doctrines of hate and terror? Are we monitoring that? Are we wiretapping? Are we following what's going on?" Romney asked in the speech. He also suggested keeping closer tabs on foreign students who hail from countries designated as sponsors of terrorism.
Here’s how the Boston Globe, the Governor’s main newspaper covered the intolerance, the hate of little girls; hope you’ve digested your supper.
http://www.boston.com/news/local/articles/2005/09/29/romney_remarks_alarm_muslims/
at December 12, 2006 10:46 PM
George Bush should have read Alexis Tocqueville'
On page 322 of Andre Jardin's Biography of Alexis de Tocqueville, published in 1984 by Farrar, Strauss Giroux, Tocqueville wrote (sorry if I did not quote the source properly) in 1840:
"I studied the Koran a great deal, mainly because of our position vis-a-vis the Muslim populations of Algeria and throughout the Near East. I must tell you that I came away from the study with the conviction that by and large there have been few religions in the world as deadly to men as that of Mohammed. As far as I can see it is the principal cause of the decadence so visible today in the Muslim world, and, though it is less absurd than the polytheism of old, its social and political tendencies are in my opinion infinitely more to be feared, and I therefore regard it as a form of decadence rather than a form of progress in relation to paganism itself."
Preceding this quote, the author states that “...Tocqueville was interested above all in studying the moral influence that a religion exercised on a society. The Christian spirit of American society made democracy possible there, while the Muslim morality that so profoundly impregnated minds and manners crushed man with its materialism and fatalism."
at December 13, 2006 2:33 PM
Part 2 was just as good as part 1. Thanks, Fjordman.
Following the thoughts in Part 1, I ask "Is Christianity Compatible with Democracy?" in a post on Townhall, for those interested:
http://fullervision.townhall.com/g/9a925288-3b2d-4bdd-a28b-72b3fc97b8d0
Posted by: EFuller
at December 13, 2006 9:23 PM
so, some people don't want to call it a war on terrorism. what is it really? it is a war on religious fundamentalism, that is fanatic and inflexible in it's belief. in this i must include christian fundamentalism also. i am tired of christians telling me that i am condemmed to hell, because i don't accept the bible as the holy and un-erring word of god. i have studied the "one-true god" religions for 40 yrs, and have since become a taoist. according to the bible, i should be killed! sounds alot like islam, doesn't it? the only reason that fundamentalist christians don't get their way, is because our secular laws prevent it. in effect, christianity has had it's teeth pulled. (but it still has sharp claws). but at the present time it is islam that is the gravest threat to freedom, both physically, and intellectually, in the world today. can you effectively fight evil, if you don't recognize that evil exists within our own ranks as well?
Posted by: stormraven
at December 17, 2006 10:45 AM
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