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A look at reality for converts from Islam in another Muslim country often advertised as "moderate." "Morocco's Christian converts irk the world of Islam," by Sammy Ketz for AFP:
RABAT (AFP) - They might have Islamic names like Mohammed or Ali, but every Sunday these Moroccan converts to Christianity go discreetly to "church" - to the ire of Islamic militants and under the suspicious eye of police.
"There are about a thousand of us in around 50 independent churches across the big cities of the kingdom," explained Abdelhalim, who coordinate these evangelical Protestant groups in Morocco.
"As we are tolerated, but not recognised (by the state) we must, for security reasons, conduct ourselves as a clandestine organisation," said the 57-year-old, who preferred to use a pseudonym.
"As soon as a church has 20 worshippers it splits in two," said Abdelhalim, a doctor who converted to Christianity 16 years ago when he was living abroad.
Islam is the state religion in Morocco, a country of 30 million people that counts only 5,000 Jews and 1,000 Christians, according to figures given by the two groupings.
Although you cannot be sentenced if you convert to Christianity, it is illegal to proselytize under Moroccan law.
And while official Catholic, Orthodox and Protestant churches are recognized by Morocco, they are only for foreigners living in the country. Moroccan Christians have no right to pray in these churches.
However when Abdelhalim returned home seven years ago, he said he was astonished by the growing number of converts to Christianity.
"At the beginning of the 1990s there were 400 of us, four years ago around 700 and today more than 1,000," he said.
[...]
As for Morocco's main cities, seven of these "free churches" -- not linked to any international Protestant church -- are in Marrakesh, six in Casablanca, five in Rabat and even one in El Ayoun, the regional capital of the western Sahara.
"Television and the Internet are very efficient methods and in our church a soldier became Christian through the Al Hayat channel," said 30-year-old Youssef, who also preferred to use a pseudonym.
"For many of us, Islam is perceived as a social straitjacket and not as a real faith, and Christianity as a religion of tolerance and love," said the businessman, who converted at the age of 19 and was later followed by his family.
Yet in the eyes of the state they remain Muslim.
"Officially, my son and I are Muslim," said Abdelhalim. "We hold Christian marriages and bless the young couple but this is not recognized by the state. They must go before the Muslim clergy and marry according to Sharia (Islamic law). If they don't do this, they can be charged with adultery."
The same goes for death. "I cannot be buried in a Christian cemetery, only in a Muslim one," he said.
[...]
Discretion is the order of the day for Morocco's Christians, with the faithful holding services in their homes, against a background of suspicion from the Islamic world.
"We have to be careful because ordinary people cannot understand that we can be Arabs without being Muslim. For us the biggest danger is ignorance," Abdelhalim said.
The Christian converts also have article 220 of the penal code hanging over their heads, which provides for prison sentences of between six months and three years for anyone who tries to undermine a Muslim's faith or to convert him to another religion.
"I have been summoned to the police station dozens of times," said Youssef. He nonetheless says that Morocco is considered more tolerant than other Muslim countries thanks to King Mohammed VI, who has encouraged reforms to fight poverty, boost women's rights and thwart any slide towards Islamic extremism in the kingdom.
Radouan Benchekroun, the president of the council of Muslim scholars in Casablanca is, however, unaccommodating.
"To deny one's religion, it is the biggest sin that a Muslim can commit," he said.
Islamic militants insist these conversions "are not accepted by the population," according to Lahcen Daoudi, a deputy for the Islamist Justice and Development Party.
"As long as it remains at the individual level we can turn a blind eye. The problem is on the social level. If there is proselytism or if children or teachers come to school with the Crucifix, we cannot tolerate that," Daoudi said.
Posted by Marisol at December 14, 2006 4:37 PM
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If there has to be a law that shields Muslims from the influences of other religions, they must be awfully weak in their faith.
Inside every Muslim there is a non-Muslim screaming to get out.
Posted by: Pelayo![[TypeKey Profile Page]](http://www.jihadwatch.org/dhimmiwatch/nav-commenters.gif)
at December 14, 2006 5:06 PM
"...ordinary people cannot understand that we can be Arabs without being Muslim."
islam is the national ideology of the arabs... and the ideology of subjugated non-arabs.
Posted by: del at December 14, 2006 5:23 PM
The religion of intolerance and pieces strikes again! For a religion that claims to be perfect, what are they afraid of? I would think that their belief system should be able to hold its own, if it is indead perfect as muslims claim.
As an agnostic, I find myself drawn more and more to Christianity just for the fact that islam is so afraid of it! Actually just about any belief system other then islam works for me. islam cannot stand up against any other beliefs without threatening its own followers with death if they leave the evil dogma known as islam.
We need to stand up, be heard, tell the truth about islam at every chance, talk to everyone you know. The truth about islam will be the end of islam, but we need to prepare for a long drawn out battle.
We need to help these and others leave islam, and be free to be human again. If the answer is Christianity, Budisim, Hunduism, or any other belief system or for that matter no belief in a higher being/s that is fine also!
Sorry for the ramblings....
Posted by: balticwaves
at December 14, 2006 5:32 PM
Always Im amazed at the dichotomy of the islamic religion; the muslims claim its destined to rule the world yet they outlaw every other faith. If islam were to conquer earth, would it be a true religion if it were simply forced upon the people by the sword? The numbers of muslim faithful are large but the foundation of their house is weak.
As a quick aside, look at the visitor counter. By the prophets dung-stained beard, thats quite the number of hits on this site!
Posted by: Bacon-I Will Miss Thee at December 14, 2006 5:54 PM
pelayo,
What you have said is the truth. The Truth will set you free.
Posted by: callmeinfidel at December 14, 2006 6:17 PM
I confess that I married way above myself when it comes to faith. I told my wife of my feelings about Islam and Muslims. She, being the fundamentalist that she is, said, "I believe that some day we will be going back to meetings in homes. That is the way Christainity survived in the beginning." I honestly have the internal shivers thinking about it.
Posted by: credit man at December 14, 2006 6:19 PM
Bacon-I will miss thee:
I think last time I took a look this site was getting about 100K hits a day!
Posted by: credit man at December 14, 2006 6:21 PM
Matthew 16:16-18
Simon Peter answered, "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God."
And Jesus said to him, "Blessed are you, Simon Barjona, because flesh and blood did not reveal this to you, but My Father who is in heaven.
I also say to you that you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build My church; and the gates of Hades will not overpower it."
Gates keep people both in and out, but ultimately the gates of Islam will not stop the building of the church.
Jesus will not allow it, he will build his church.
Posted by: Lorgan at December 14, 2006 6:34 PM
What you see in this report is the future that awaits Europe and North America if this islamic invasion is allowed to continue.
WAKE UP folks!!!
Wake up - Stand up!!!
Posted by: germaninamerica at December 14, 2006 7:27 PM
Another "moderate" muslim state by the way, like Turkey...
Posted by: godfreyofbouillon at December 14, 2006 7:43 PM
That cult of death just can't accept reality-someone leaves and it still considers that person part of that cult. No wonder it claims so many adherents-out of that 1.2 billion I wonder how many really are true believers. This kind of reminds me of dead people who vote 2 or 3 times on election day. Laughable and pathetic at the same time.
Posted by: ISLAMSFORLOSERS at December 14, 2006 7:53 PM
I was reading a comment about jihadwatch by either a muslim or dhimmi, and it said that the hits are exaggerated because whenever you click on something, doing so adds a hit.
Like a new page or clicking a picture.
Was he telling the true?
Does anyone know how the hits work?
Posted by: BlowHammed at December 14, 2006 8:57 PM
Radouan Benchekroun, the president of the council of Muslim scholars in Casablanca is, however, unaccommodating.
"To deny one's religion, it is the biggest sin that a Muslim can commit," he said.
funny Christian can change to Buddhism Shinto or many other faiths that are out there but Islam is only one who's followers insist that any Muslim changes and leaves Islam must he killed if he does not recant at least morocoo is a bit more modern than some some Islamic countries i.e. Saudi Arabia or Iraq where converts are killed.
at December 14, 2006 9:03 PM
Off topic:
Honour killing being exported to Italy
Posted by: ummahnewslinks at December 14, 2006 9:22 PM
I've always been proud of the fact that the only advanced country in the world to change religion is South Korea, and it's gone Christian. It's also clear there are big changes in store for China as well. Even Putin, while apparently on the road to reestablishing the old Soviet Union (with centralized control limited to the "commanding heights" -- a.k.a. critical industrial and energy sectors), is doing that with the help and blessing of the Russian Orthodox Church.
But this gives me just as much hope that our spiritual war with Islam will result in absolute victory for us. Have no illusions about this: the mullahs are scared witless of us, and they see the same handwriting on the wall I do. Their vicious tactics betray nothing but their frailty.
Pour on the love!
Posted by: pneumatikon at December 14, 2006 9:31 PM
I was just imagining the disgust, the revulsion, the unremittent hatred that would spew forth from the Western Left if Christian apostates had to live in such circumstance.
Posted by: Cornelius at December 14, 2006 11:11 PM
A feeling I have about Islam is that from its very inception to the present day, it has suffered from an inferiority complex vis a vis other religions. Perhaps its founder was too obviously an unedifying charcter living in a clearly barbaric society, perhaps, as an intellectual system, it is too obviously a cobbled together human artifact, perhaps the Koran is just too much of a self contradicting ragbag.
All the intolerance, violence and fanaticism of Muslims could be a product of a deep insecurity about a system that could not compete on equal terms with other religions. The first question you ask yourself when you read of Muslim suppression of other religions in their own countries is: what are they afraid of?
Incidentally, Morocco was cited as a country where churches are allowed and left in peace, by a Muslim apologist on a BBC radio discussion a few weeks ago, when someone accused Islam of intolerance.You sometimes wonder if Muslims deliberately misrepresent or if they actually believe their own nonsense - blinded by their religion.
at December 14, 2006 11:54 PM
Pelayo writes:
"Inside every Muslim there is a non-Muslim screaming to get out."
Don't you wish it were so. I understand what you are saying, I think.
John 12:30 "Jesus said, ..... 31Now is the time for judgment on this world; now the prince of this world will be driven out. 32But I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to myself." 33He said this to show the kind of death he was going to die."
To see Christ clearly for even a muslim--to understand who He is and what he did--IS to believe. The enemy knows he has to keep his own in darkness or else they will SEE and thus believe.
Isn't it amazing that the koran/islam denies that Jesus even went to the cross--when Jesus death there on that cross was EXACTLY the thing that G-d uses to save people? You can also see from this the satanic nature of islam forbidding muslims to even consider converting on the pain of death--becasue the TRUTH is so powerful.
Lorgan--you got it right too. The gates of hell are defensive. Jesus real church is on the offense in this world. The redeemed will be there in heaven from EVERY tribe and nation and tongue.
Try as the Moroccan muslim bigshots may to surpress the truth--it can't be contained. Many more Moroccans will see and believe the good news of the gospel of Jesus Christ.
Posted by: BB at December 15, 2006 12:19 AM
To extend off of PELAYO'S lead comment, Heaven is always in revolt against the Hell that prevails in this world. Hell is the impostor, the imposition, the fraud, the lie. Thus the truth, the bona fide, the legitimate are always at war against it.
Rest assured, millions of Christians are praying, and though to the casual glance such prayers seem unavailing, God is working upon islam.
I perceive islam as in the throes of civilizational doubt. For centuries, they've been told by their supreme religious authorities that Jews are less than apes and pigs. YET BEHOLD, those supposedly less than apes and pigs can kick their ass from one side of the desert to another. LOOK TOO at the wealth of Israel. ALL WITHIN A FEW DECADES, the Jews have succeeded in creating a society that muslims can but envy.
This throws all of islam into existential doubt.
That's part of their fixation with Israel. ISRAEL MUST be destroyed for them, OTHERWISE THEIR FAITH is proven false, vain, and vainglorious.
Christ is truth, principal and conclusion, center and circumference, the alpha, and the omega. All those that diligently look for truth, in whatever sphere of human life they look for truth, will sooner or later find themselves on the road to him. Islam is the longest running totalitarian entity in human history. And like those other totalitarian entities, it will crash, it will collapse, from within, or perhaps without, after a huge military blow delivered to them. But a verdict is going to be passed upon islam. Have no doubt about that.
And ALL OF US SHOULD TAKE RENEWED CONFIDENCE from the comments of that Christian convert, who branded islam a "straitjacket." We know, FROM THOSE RECENTLY WITHIN THE RANKS OF ISLAM, we know with confidence what true horror islam truly is.
Posted by: Dan at December 15, 2006 2:35 AM
CREDIT MAN.
Your wife speaks the truth, for her comments are fully consistent with approved Catholic prophecy. All will come full circle, a Church hunted, existing in the figurative catacombs, will return to that state, before the end. Such has been prophesied.
St. Augustine wrote in wonder of the Saints of those latter days, who will confront Satan and his minions unchained, while they in his time could barely handle him chained, limited, held in check by the grace of the Holy Spirit.
It's unfortunate that Europeans have embarked upon such an immigration policy towards islam. Instead of forcing islam deeper into the throes of doubt, confusion and despair. They've given them a new lease on life. For they're providing a means of making true what Mohammad said long ago: "First Constantinople, then Rome." As that prospect looks increasingly likely, ALL OF ISLAM will become energized, confident, cocky, and thus increasingly bloodthirsty, increasingly jihadist. The closer islam gets to taking over Europe, the more of islam will become jihadist.
Thus IT'S EUROPE that is providing so much of the energy for jihad, for they are making real Mohammad's comments of long ago.
So we have a weird portrait before us of islam, we see islam collapsing, dry-rotted from within, and we see islam conquering, slaying and raping, moving forward to a position of mastery of Europe.
It's a mystery of mysteries.
Posted by: Dan at December 15, 2006 2:46 AM
The truth is that the Christian faith is growing very fast in the global south. In truth it is Christianity, not Islam that is the true fastest growing faith. It is the hope that the good news of the Gospel of Jesus Christ, what it brings. God Bless the Christians who are standing up for Christ.
Posted by: bigcatgirl13106 at December 15, 2006 6:53 AM
Still, this is encouraging news. Dan, the only reason why dry-rotted-from-within Islam is forging ahead in Europe is because secularist Europe is also dry-rotted from within.
But I am not all that surprised by the news. Many missions agencies have been saying for years that the number of Muslims open to Christianity has been unprecedented. I myself once got into a conversation with a Muslim over "Does God have a wife?" and saw him go from sarcastic to good-naturedly appreciative when I pointed out to him that a Christian communion he had once seen was God having dinner with his "wife"!
Posted by: Kepha at December 15, 2006 7:27 AM
So we in the West are complaining about Moslems coming in to impose themselves on us, but we try to do the same thing over ther. What kind of cowchip is that?
Away with religion - to hell with it! We, The People have had enough of it! That's what got us into that trouble in the 1st place. RELIGION.
In the West we've let the popes and such as the jesushits lead us by the hand into a pit. Now we've trying to dig ourselves out. I mean - this thing about religion has had it's day! Who were the popes? A bunch of scum, corrupt in all ways. And who were they ? And who was the church to present itself as a paragon of virtue?
What we're reaping today in the ME,are the seeds planted by religious lunatics - even before the Crusades.
It's a case of the religious clerics all over getting their brain highs on power. Every time the people settle down and start getting along, comes the priests, the missionaries, the pope, to ruin it all...
What business did the pope have to go to Turkey? It's wasn't for good will and the benefit of humanity - it was to get back the power the church (small c) had - that's why! Benedict does were satin and embrodiered capes for nothing!
And instead he stirred up a hornets neck. He knew what effect the little speech he made beforehand about a previous pope, would have. He's not stupid. And even if he were, he's got advisors (apparently one of them now being Kissinger the criminal).
It all those opiates the brain produces to get a high on. It makes them feel good - it's POWER!
You see it time and time again, when secular laws start making an inroad, the clerics start shaking in their shoes...with fear - they need their drug - their high. This has been happening in Pakistan - in Turkey - in Egypt.
The church got it's high in the New World - there was NO odor of sanctity - but of corpses rotting. The smell gives them a high.You people love the smell of a pine forest - nice and clean - the clerics love the smell of death - destruction. Don't let them fool you.
Same as the imams - and how they take deep breaths to get it all it.
Ladies and Gentlemen, what we in the West from the poor countries (I despise the term 3rd world - the West took and took resources and now calls it 3rd world). We've abused the good will of other nations, looked down on them - taken everything - their life's blood (literally)- interferred in their politics - invaded them (what a mistake with Iraq ! - they were on their way to secularism - women were going to the university - and were doctors and professors. Religious sects were marginalized- now we're the cause of their return).
What we're experiencing is a COLLECTIVE SLAP IN THE FACE!
ANd don't we deserve it! Don't we deserve it! With our arrogance - our hubris. Matter of fact, it's a lucky thing that Latin America/South America is so disorganized - and lives - lives in general the forced conversion of the padres (backed by the raping soldados and the inquisition).
We better sit up look around and see what serious damage christianity and conversions are doing. As it is, India has a real beef about that.
Now, we don't need religion - secularism and common people just working along together. Religion has ALWAYS - ALWAYS separated us.
Allat
Posted by: allat at December 15, 2006 8:42 AM
Someone's so-called posion is another person's healing balm, and in a special way in these very tense times.
Posted by: bigcatgirl13106 at December 15, 2006 9:19 AM
The sad truth is that secularism, in the form of nazism and communism has caused much more suffering and death and anything of religion combine.
Posted by: bigcatgirl13106 at December 15, 2006 9:22 AM
"For many of us, Islam is perceived as a social straitjacket and not as a real faith, and Christianity as a religion of tolerance and love," said the businessman, who converted at the age of 19 .
This is why the enemy is Islam not the Muslim. People deserve to have a future, but the ideas in their heads do not. It will be up to us in the free world to prove the ideas wrong. It won't come from within their system. External shocks to the system (caused by us) will pull the pillars of temple Islam down to their base foundations. Never give up.
at December 15, 2006 9:53 AM
"The sad truth is that secularism, in the form of nazism and communism has caused much more suffering and death and anything of religion combine.'
"The U.S. of A. is a secular country - i.e. separation of religion and government. The last time I heard, we were NOT a commununist country.
I must have missed something there.
Allat
at December 15, 2006 11:41 AM
People here should support Christians who are persecuted for their faith in Muslim countries.
There are only three charities I know off who deal with this sort of thing.
Two are in America. One is Persecution.org International Christian concern
http://www.persecution.org
There is also Voice of the Martyrs.
www.persecution.com
The third is in the UK. It is Christian Solidarity Worldwide.
http://www.csw.org.uk/
The website http://www.asianews.it/ under it’s freedom of religion section also reports on the persecution of Christians.
I still think that supporting these charities is worthwhile but on reflection I think a note of caution is required.
These charities run letter-writing campaigns on behalf of unjustly imprisoned Christians.
While it is a good thing that Christians who live in the free world campaign on behalf of these people, it should be made clear that joining such a charity to participate in letter writing campaigns, similar to those run by Amnesty International, may involve a very small potential of risk.
Such a campaigns usually involve writing to the embassies of the countries in question.
In a campaign such as this, this would involve writing to the countries such as Eygpt, Indonesia and Pakistan.
Of course, you are required to provide your own postal address if you require a reply.
( Having participated in Amnesty International’s letter writing campaigns, I can tell you that your chances of receiving a reply are virtually non-existant)
Anyone who is considering supporting such a campaign should be aware that giving away your postal address may expose you to a very small element of risk, from those determined to oppose, by violent means if necessary, the exercise of religious and political freedom. Of course, if no one is prepared to run this risk, the future for persecuted Christians looks bleak indeed.
at December 15, 2006 11:45 AM
Allat,
yours is the voice of one who lacks reason, since you are so wrapped up in secularism, you cannot see the wood for the trees.
Australia, the USA and Great Britain have a separation of the state and church. What that means is not that our countries are secular, but that no one religion or religious group is allowed to dominate. In other words, there is no state religion.
The history of the world shows that there has always been a state religion throughout all civilizations. In pagan Rome, for example the people had to worship the emperor as though he was a god. When the Christians and Jews refused to worship the emperor in this fashion they were martyred.
Islam is not a religion. It is a political system disguised as a religion, and this is why it differs so much from Christianity and Judaism. Both of these latter groups had to go through change to reach this state. In the case of Christianity, Church and State became intertwined due to the collapse of the Roman Empire, yet the emperors were always separate from the church. It was only when Constantine recognized and validated the Christians that the Christians were able to come out of hiding, and the church itself was able to grow and reach more nations around the world.
The USA is not the most perfect state. Your government, like my Australian government makes imperfect laws - e.g. allowing abortion on demand, euthanasia on demand and stem cell research, which are amongst many of the imperfect laws that exist. However, in the USA you go one further because you allow people to be murdered by the state (the death penalty) and you stood back and let an innocent woman be condemned to death because her husband wanted her dead so that he could marry his concubine.
The secular state has allowed all sorts of abominations including allowing lesbians and homosexuals to "marry", a union that can never be considered as sanctified by God.
You say what business did Pope Benedict have going to Turkey? The visit was not on a State level, even though Pope Benedict is the state leader of the Vatican. That visit was personal, and he achieved a pilgrimage to Ephesus, which is a town of importance in Christianity. He also held talks with the Patriarch of Constantinople, and this was the purpose of the visit. It had nothing to do with the Muslims of Turkey. He did not ask them to behave like lunatics with their pathetic protests.
You have a poor attitude and I cannot guess at your reasons for rejecting religion, but what you stated sounded pathetic, all the same.
Secular states around the world have committed more atrocities and killed more people than any religion, except for the political system known as Islam. Millions of people have died in the Soviet Union, and millions died in Europe during the Second World War. Hitler devised a secular state, Nazism is the form of religion that he wanted to impose - a system that is incompatible with Christianity, and embraced by those who willingly embrace Satan.
You denounce religion, but that is not going to save your soul from eternal torment if you lead a wicked life.
Posted by: Maggie4Life at December 15, 2006 3:31 PM
People here should support Christians who are persecuted for their faith in Muslim countries.
hmmm seems to me Christians are not persecuted in Muslim countries, they are eliminated from Muslim countries.
Posted by: exsgtbrown at December 15, 2006 3:35 PM
"As long as it remains at the individual level we can turn a blind eye. The problem is on the social level. If there is proselytism or if children or teachers come to school with the Crucifix, we cannot tolerate that," Daoudi said.
HE LIES!!!!
jUST WITNESS the one single Muslim from Afganistan who coverted decades ago and was under a death threat. He was granted asylum in Italy, THen the Islamic cleric demanded (DEMANDED)HE be sent back in order that he could be slain for coverting.
Islam does not turn blind eyes. In Islam there is no social level.You cannot convert, You cannot proselytize, you can only submit. (or die)
Posted by: exsgtbrown at December 15, 2006 3:47 PM
The USA, if my memory serves me right, was founded and based on the positive values based on the Jewish/Christian faiths.
Posted by: bigcatgirl13106 at December 15, 2006 11:56 PM
if our w. govs accepted only genuine dissidents of slami such as these as refugees i would have no problem w. it
Posted by: god at December 16, 2006 3:56 PM
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