| FrontPageMag.com | By Robert Spencer | By Hugh Fitzgerald | Books | Jihad Watch | Robert Spencer | Islam 101 | Qur'an Blog |  |
|
|
||||||||||
|
|
A Le Pen victory in France would be terrible. It would set back during a critical period the respectability and plausibility of those who would like, correctly, to put a complete halt to Muslim immigration -- and to find ways not to engage in the hopeless task of large-scale "integration" of a population whose belief-system, a Complete System of Regulation, tells them that they are there to possess, to sweep away obstacles so that Islam will "dominate and is not to be dominated."
Le Pen is a crude racist and antisemite. Furthermore, he has shown that his antisemitism remains steady while his attitude toward Arabs and Islam wavers. He was a great supporter of Saddam Hussein, and remains anti-American in one of the recognizable French traditions of anti-Americanism, America as the land of thrusting capitalist skyscrapers as opposed to the certain verities of the French terroir, including Jose Bove's farmers.
What would be the American equivalent? A blend of the late Leander Perez of Plaquemines Parish, the late Gerald L. K. Smith ("For Cross and the Flag"), the still-unlate Paul Findley, and, the most respectable of the lot, with his slicked-back hair and Gucci loafers and BMW, Pat Buchanan. That is what Le Pen is and would be. And Islam would then have a chance to triumph, for many who are against it would not be able to bring themselves to be in such a galere, and those most intelligently alert and therefore alarmed about Islam would be painted as Le Penistes.
Think, after all, the way CAIR and others characterize this and other websites, as belonging to some mad-dog right-wingers. The charge is absurd. But in the case of Le Pen, the charge would not be absurd. He will only do damage. He has only done damage to the cause of those who are intelligently alarmed about the presence and spread of Islam and Islamic supremacism in the lands of the Bilad al-kufr, and especially in France.
There is nothing good one can say about Le Pen. In France, and perhaps in Europe, this -- well, imagine a movie about Occupied France, and then as you run that movie in your mind's eye, stop the projector slowly when you get to the most craven and vicious kind of collaborator, the born antisemite who has a line to Gestapo headquarters in rue des Saussaies, and you will have a good idea of Le Pen. He has been the greatest obstacle to sensible and forthright discussion of what Islam is all about in theory and practice, and why "integration" will not work, and why there is no time to waste in learning about Islam and undoing the folly of the corrupt or self-assured but stupid promoters of the Euro-Arab Dialogue and all that it is doing to rewrite European history and the relation of Islam to Europe as to the rest of the world.
The sooner Le Pen dies, the more likely it is that in France those who are aware of the problem, but have been holding back because they do not want to appear to endorse Le Pen. Le Pen (who, by the way, visited Saddam Hussein to offer his support, and has every conceivable anti-American and of course anti-Semitic -- that is to say anti-Israel -- view of the European left). One hopes that the handful of sensible leaders -- Sarkozy comes about as close as, at this point, we can hope for -– will step into the breach.
So terrible is the problem, however, that some good people will even vote for Le Pen, as a way of showing how alienated they are. This shows how badly the French politicians have fallen down -- not merely the crook Chirac, of whom no one expects anything (and he should not be taken seriously by anyone in the American government), nor the poseur Dominique de Villepin, but a great many others.
How stupid can people be not to realize that the field should not be left to Le Pen or those like him? Each country is different, and Fini is perfectly acceptable, while Alessandra Mussolini, who split with Fini over his denunciation of the antisemitic legislation -- the "racial laws" of the late 1930s -- is not. In Germany, there is no one called "right-wing" who can conceivably be acceptable; Belgium and the Scandinavian countries, however, each require specific local knowledge to decide where one has a right to worry and where some are labelled "right-wing" or "far right-wing" only because the press is itself propagandizing against them, as it always used to do against the Lebanese Christians. They unfailingly described them as "right-wing Christians" when the epithet made no sense.
Le Pen is not paid by Saudi agents. But if he is not being paid by Muslim agents, he should be.
In attempting to prevent the islamization of Western Europe, Le Pen has been worse than useless. He gets in the way. And his view of the universe, with his hatred of Americans and of Jews, is quite close to that of those he claims to oppose, but he is simply Tweedledum to their Dee.
In "Napoleon Dynamite," Pedro Sanchez is running for Class President and promises his fellow students that "if I am elected, your wildest dreams will come true." It's a good campaign slogan, truthful in its beautiful untruthfulness, and Pedro deserved to win. No one will make our wildest dreams come true in Europe, or in America. But one does hope that in expressing home truths about Islam and islamization, the field will not be left to the likes of Le Pen. The sooner he is gone from the scene, the better.
Posted by Hugh at January 10, 2007 10:51 AM
Print this entry
| Email this entry
| Digg this
| del.icio.us
And Islam would then have a chance to triumph, for many who are against it would not be able to bring themselves to be in such a galere, and those most intelligently alert and therefore alarmed about Islam would be painted as Le Penistes.
Which is exactly why I will never vote BNP.
WSW
Posted by: Wild Slutty Womens![[TypeKey Profile Page]](http://www.jihadwatch.org/dhimmiwatch/nav-commenters.gif)
at January 10, 2007 11:31 AM
Alexandre Del Valle, in one response to a question in a 2006 interview, reveals a tense bundle of paradoxical tissue about Le Pen and his National Front Party:
Question: To those who accuse you of being a Trojan Horse for the National Front, how do you respond?
Del Valle: I laugh! Those who really know the extreme Right and my views know that Le Pen considers me an Israeli agent, and that the National Front, like GRECE [= the Groupe de Réflexion et d'Études sur la Civilisation Européenne, which Del Valle elsewhere characterized as "one of the more influential think-tanks of the pro-Islamist European extreme right [whose leader Alain de Benoist's discourse] recalls strangely the rhetoric of the Italian Red Brigades (who have moreover always maintained bridges with the Browns, underscoring an obsessive anti-Americanism that would not surprise the extreme left"] -- i.e., the New Right and nearly the entirety of the extreme Right, all detest me and fight against my theses, which are not solely "Zionist" but are just as much related to the necessity of building an Islam of a Republican France and to achieve a successful integration of immigrants. To this end I work with Rachid Kaci, Mezri Haddad, Kaveh Mohsseini, Jbil Kébir and so many other moderate French Muslims whom the extreme Right detests as much as the Islamists detest them... to me, these non-Fundamentalist Muslims are brothers and compatriots, a real part of France like all other Frenchmen of any origin as long as, as Nicolas Sarkozy has said, the laws of the Republic and respect for the French flag are observed.
Posted by: remote_control at January 10, 2007 12:01 PM
"Rachid Kaci, Mezri Haddad, Kaveh Mohsseini, Jbil Kébir..."
-- from the posting above, quoting Alexandre del Valle
Nota Bene:
Not one of those mentioned is Arab. Rachid Kaci of maghrebins laiques is Berber. So is Mezri Haddad. So is Jbil Kebir. And Kaveh Mohseinni, judging by his name, is Iranian.
And from MAK, the Berber movement for the independence of the Kabyle, about the protests against the false idea that "Algeria is Arab" comes this late dispatch:
Les étudiants de Vgayet manifestent en force : "Corrigez l’histoire, l’Algerie n’est pas arabe"
“Alger, capitale de la culture Arabe”
Les étudiants de Béjaïa manifestent en force
C’est vers midi que la masse compacte des étudiants ayant pris le départ du campus d’Aboudaou arrive devant le siège de la wilaya en scandant à tue-tête “Alger, capitale de la culture arabe, nous n’en avons pas besoin”
Quelque 6000 étudiants de l’université Aderrahmane-Mira de Béjaïa ont marché hier matin plus de 6 km pour dénoncer à leur manière et avec force la décision du pouvoir de faire d’Alger, pour 2007, “la capitale de la culture arabe”. Ce qui est, selon les étudiants de Béjaïa, une “suprème humiliation pour les Amazighs” puisque la date choisie pour le coup d’envoi de cet évènement est le 12 janvier qui correspond au 1er Yennayer, de l’an 2957 du calandrier berbère.
C’est vers midi que la masse compacte des étudiants ayant pris le départ du campus d’Aboudaou arrive devant le siège de la wilaya en scandant à tue-tête “Alger, capitale de la culture arabe, nous n’en avons pas besoin”. Sur les banderoles portés à bout de bras on peut lire “non à une culture” arabo-impériale”, “corrigez l’histoire, l’Algerie n’est pas arabe”.
Occupant sur plusieurs centaines de mètres les deux sens de la large rue de la liberté qui longe la façade de la wilaya et celles d’autres administrations, la foule des étudiants s’est mise à lancer à plein poumons des slogans très corrosifs à l’endroit du pouvoir en général et de la ministre de la culture en particulier.
D’autres étudiants se sont même permis le luxe de grimper, avec leurs banderoles, sur le mur d’enceinte et même sur les grilles d’entrée de la wilaya. A signaler cependant que les policiers présents en force se sont gardés de toute intervention. Avant les prises de paroles, les manifestants se sont offert un moment de détente en entonnant des airs de chansons bien connus de fêtes. Puis, ils s’en sont pris aux autorités locales, qui ont supprimé un petit monticule qui se trouvait juste en face de la wilaya et qui servait habituellement de tribune aux orateurs lors de diverses manifestations.
C’est donc à même le trottoir que les responsables de coordination des comités de cités qui ont initié la marche ont donné leurs communications qui se resument pour la plupart en la dénonciation haut et fort des manifestations, culturelles des pays arabes qui se derouleront à Alger durant l’année 2007 et de la coïncidence “comme par hasard de la date de coup d’envoi de ces derniers avec la fin de l’an amazighe,, tout en précisant cependant qu’ils ne sont ni contre les arabes, ni contre la culture arabe, ni contre la culture d’aucun pays dans ce monde.
Par ailleurs une déclaration protestation truffée de citations de Kateb Yacine et de Mouloud Mameri, relatives à l’amazighité de l’Algérie a été lue et commentée par les étudiants.
Sources : B. Mouhoub - Dépêche de Kabylie - 10/01/2007
[I do not have the time to translate it; perhaps someone else, preferably a native speaker of French who visits here, will do so, and post the translation.]
When, in Washington, and all over the Lands of the Infidels, one begins to see posters saying "Long Live an Indpendent Kabyle" and "Long Live a Free Kurdistan" and "Long Live Free Biafra" then one will know we are getting somewhere.
at January 10, 2007 12:16 PM
Thanks for you excellent commentary, as always, Hugh. Le Pen is a fraud. If the French choose vote for him instead of de Villiers, they are doomed.
Posted by: US_infidel at January 10, 2007 1:19 PM
From the article:
[Le Pen] has shown that his antisemitism remains steady while his attitude toward Arabs and Islam wavers. [...] What would be the American equivalent?
I would have thought that David Duke would be the closest analogue, but then David Duke attended the Holocaust Deniers Summit in Iran and seemed pretty chummy with the Muslims. The true "far-right" wingers seem ambivalent in their attitude toward Islam. The "far-right" may be xenophobic, but then the Muslims are so rabidly anti-Semitic and anti-U.S.-government (the one that killed that patriot David Koresh and that is putting poisonous chlorine in the drinking water and that is sending out black helicopters to shoot down its own airliners and setting explosives in the WTC to do a controlled demolition, that U.S. government, and yes, that is their viewpoint not mine) that it seems worth it to forge an alliance of convenience.
He has been the greatest obstacle to sensible and forthright discussion of what Islam is all about
If Le Pen truly is against Islam, and not just taking political advantage of a horrible situation and the desperation of the public, I am fairly confident that his stand comes not from a solid understanding of what the Qur'an and hadiths teach, but from a gut-reaction against people who look and act differently. I doubt that he would have the intellectual capacity to have a face-to-face debate with the taqiyya dispensers.
If Robert or Hugh were Le Pen clones, or if Robert's books taught hatred, or if JW/DW were a demagoguing "anti-foreigner" site, I would not hang around or participate, and I would not have learned all that I have. I would still be in ignorance of Islam, and (much more importantly) I would not be the only one.
Posted by: special_guest at January 10, 2007 1:50 PM
Here's a report on the new far-right alliance of MEP's in the European Parliament----a group which includes rabid anti-Semites from newly joined Romania( where hundreds of thousands of Jews were slaughtered during the Holocaust...the Nazis gleefully aided and abetted by the locals,Bulgaria and Alessandra Mussolini. Their leader is a known Holocaust denier. They are clearly against further Muslim immigration but discredit this position with their Jew hatred.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/6241153.stm
Posted by: samson at January 10, 2007 2:00 PM
It is a shame that so many Western politicians have left the field wide open by their own timidity or stupidity. Look at how few mainstream politicians are willing to take a stand against illegal immigration in the U.S.
Posted by: MP at January 10, 2007 2:11 PM
sorry....forgot to close the brackets after 'locals'.
Posted by: samson at January 10, 2007 2:17 PM
from the article of the far-right coalition in EU
"The far right is likely to push for a freeze on further EU enlargement - especially the prospect of membership for Turkey - and to resist any attempts to revive the shipwrecked EU constitution.
"We do not call for violence against immigrants but we oppose immigration policy because it's linked to the decline of the birthrate in Europe," said Mr Gollnisch. "It is a menace for our identity and the survival of our nations."
no matter how you put it, it's refreshing that someone is telling it like it is
Posted by: StillFedUp at January 10, 2007 2:37 PM
MP said
Look at how few mainstream politicians are willing to take a stand against illegal immigration in the U.S.
We are insane. If we cannot even block illegal immigration, what chance do we have of setting any limits/controls whatsoever on who/what is coming into the country? Lou Dobbs has been pounding away on this issue for a while now. We have turned a blind eye to our borders to allow cheap immigrant labor to come in. Meanwhile, what else is coming over the border with them?
On a related note, the Democrats in the House have passed a (9/11 Report recommended) bill that all cargo coming into the U.S. must be inspected. A small step in the right direction.
Posted by: special_guest at January 10, 2007 3:14 PM
i support him. his main thrust is antiislam. hes the best hope i see for france. im virulently antiantijewish
Posted by: god at January 10, 2007 3:27 PM
Nazis - Moslems all the same to me
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2-2149297,00.html
In fairness to Nick Griffin (leader of the BNP) he is trying to steer the party away from the anti-semitism that has plagued the party in the past
Posted by: hierophant at January 10, 2007 3:43 PM
i support him. his main thrust is antiislam. hes the best hope i see for france. im virulently antiantijewish
posted by god
obviously not the God of Israel!
Posted by: hierophant at January 10, 2007 3:48 PM
While most French Jews are expected to vote against Le Pen in the run-off, his unofficial adviser on Jewish affairs, Sonia Arrouas, who is Jewish, said that a Le Pen victory might be in the Jews' interests.
"Le Pen is opposed to the Arabs and is, therefore, good for the Jews," Arrouas told the Israeli daily Ha'aretz. "Le Pen is pro-Israel and believes it is the only Western state in the Arab East, and this is why Israel's security and existence is important to him.''
Posted by: hierophant at January 10, 2007 4:08 PM
The comment is simple-minded. Le Pen is not even "opposed to the Arabs." His foreign policy ideas are indeed pro-Arab. In 2002 and before he was all for Saddam Hussein. He hates the United States, and American power. He is essentially a petty Poujadiste, distrustful of capitalism, a man right out of the mid-1950s. He bears all the psychological earmarks of those who, during the war, were likely to serve, even eagerly serve, the regime of the Marechal and Pierre Laval. It is impossible to think of a man like Le Pen as ever joining the Resistance. He's the worst kind of petit-bourgeois swine, and even if he seems to occasionally utter a sentiment containg a squeak of truth, that is not enough to justify support for him.
Posted by: Hugh at January 10, 2007 4:42 PM
get off the fence Hugh
If you don't like him say it!
snigger
Posted by: hierophant at January 10, 2007 4:54 PM
Sometimes I think that no politician or party can help us. All our main line political parties are liberal to the core. None of them have the courage to state, leave alone implement what is required to remove the threat of Islam. No political party has the moral courage to state the truth about Islam, and do what is required, and even if they did, and are succesfull, it will tarnish their reputation for decades. So all of them hope that someone else will do the dirty work, and then they come back in the next election with clean hands and conscience.
Parties such as the BNP carry too much baggage from their past, and that baggage, whether true or not at present, will sink them if they tried anything dramatic. Their failure in office, will hand victory to Islam.
We will have to do the work ourselves. In France, it will require a people's revolution. Only then will the politicians move as the political landscape changes for all parties, for they can then claim, that they had no choice. I do hope and pray for France. Not just for France's sake, but as France does, the rest of Europe will follow.
Posted by: DP111 at January 10, 2007 4:58 PM
Hasn't Le Pen made overtures to muslims in France in order to garner votes?
The only one to vote for is Phillipe de Villiers.
Posted by: Voltaire at January 10, 2007 4:58 PM
Though French is not my native tongue, I do manage to converse in it fairly well. Speaking it is naturally easier than reading it. Nevertheless, and in lieu of anyone else offering a translation, here is the gist of it:
The students of Vgayet forcefully expressed: "The correct history of Algeria is not Arab"
It is about noon when the large number of students left the campus of Aboudaou and arrived in front of the seat of the wilaya while stressing at kill-head "We don't need Algiers as the capital of Arab culture."
Yesterday morning, some 6000 students of the university of Béjaïa Aderrahmane-Reflected, walked more than 6 kilometers to denounce in a forceful manner the decision of the capacity to make Algiers "the capital of Arab culture" for 2007. According to the students of Béjaïa this is a "supreme humiliation for Amazighs" since the date chosen for the blow of starting this event is on January 12th, which corresponds to the 1st Yennayer, of the year 2957 of the Berber calendar.
At about noon, the large number of students left the campus of Aboudaou and arrived in front of the seat of the wilaya while stressing at kill-head "We don't need Algiers as the capital of Arab culture." On the banners one can read "Algeria is not Arab with an arabo-imperial culture, give the correct history."
Occupying several hundred meters in both directions of the wide street, which skirts the frontage of the wilaya and those of other administrations, the crowd of students started yelling very corrosive slogans at the top of their lungs at the place of the gathering in general and at the Minister of Culture in particular.
Other students even took the liberty to climb, with their banners, up the enclosing wall and even up the entry gates to the wilaya. However, the announcement that police officers are present keeps some from intervention. Before the speeches, the demonstrators allowed themselves one moment of relaxation by singing well-known airs of festival songs. Some of them removed a small monticule which was just opposite the wilaya and which was usually used as platform to the speakers at the time of various demonstrations. Then, they were caught by the local authorities.
It is thus on the same street as the people in charge of the coordination of the committees of cities, which initiated the march, gave their communications which resument with the majority in the denunciation loud and clear of the demonstrations, the culturally Arab countries which will be derouleront in Algiers during the year 2007 and, by coincidence, sending of the latter with the end of the year amazighe (Berber), while specifying however that they are neither against Arabic, nor against the Arab culture, nor against the culture of any country in the world.
In addition a declaration protest truffée of quotations by Kateb Yacine and Mouloud Mameri, relating to the amazighity of Algeria was read and commented on by the students.
at January 10, 2007 5:01 PM
Wild Slutty Womens I think in the case of the BNP it is as Hugh said that a lot of the bias comes from the press and established institutions propagandizing against them.
I fail to see how a party that has members of Jewish and Armenian heritage is as the left wing media in Britain would have you believe racist nazis.
But like DP111 says
Parties such as the BNP carry too much baggage from their past, and that baggage, whether true or not at present, will sink them if they tried anything dramatic. Their failure in office, will hand victory to Islam.
However with no other solutions on the horizon my vote goes BNP way, a protest vote in favor of the BNP is probably the best weapon we have in making the more established parties sit up and do something. I actually believe that some of the noise we have seen from labour these last few months such as Jack Straws veil debate and Blairs integration speech a few months back is a direct result of rising support for the BNP. I for one am all for keeping the pressure on.
Posted by: km at January 10, 2007 5:09 PM
Could Jean-Marie put Islam in "le pig Pen"?
I am not advocating this scenario, but I am just wondering if he could conceivably be of use as anti-jihadism's useful idiot:
My premise #1: This century will see bloodshed on a probably hitherto unseen scale, as jihadist efforts will be stepped up for the 'coup de disgrace' against a moribund, self hating culture. Europe, being furthest down the path of suicide, will be the first major scene of confrontation.
#2: There are no pretty solutions to the problem of Islam. If we want to prevail, sacrifices must be made. However, the West is paralyzed by denial and appeasement.
#3: A major wake-up call is needed. The sooner the inevitable confrontation begins, the better chance we have. Demographics, nuclear proliferation, organization are factors that will worsen our situation with time. The current situation with low-scale intimidation coupled with playing-the-victim tactics will, if we do nothing, only lead to a situation where we will be powerless against growing numbers of Muslims in our countries, and maybe Iranian nuclear blackmail. Do we want to have our back up against the wall?
#4: To be effective, this wake-up call must be pedagogic, "this is what we all will face if we allow the current problems to grow and grow." The situation I talk about 'must' be cataclysmic (I am aware that this is easy armchair cynicism), impossible to talk away or to divert the blame back on ourselves. The lesson to be learned must be, 1) we do have a problem in Islam, no dodging, no hemhawing, this is real, folks, 2) in order to prevail, we must resort to methods that contravene international treaties (I'm not talking about genocide, but e.g. mass deportation, internment, categorizing Islam as a subversive ideology, and curfew).
Accepting these premises, could (and I am asking, not being sure about the answer) le Pen be useful as the catalyst of this wake-up call, his mere taking office triggering riots in the banlieus, riots which will only escalate if he tries to have them put down? Is this escalation preferable on a larger scale and in the longer term than having someone like those suggested by Hugh, Sarkozy and de Villiers (sp.?), who might represent a better understanding of the situation, but will not have the guts to undertake any draconian measures, causing the situation to veer toward the point of no return that I mentioned above?
Let me repeat that I am not cynically advocating anything. There are probably too many variables for anyone to conclude with any certainty that this scenario is any 'better'. But I do wonder if, despite being a creep, le Pen, like Gollum, might nevertheless be useful as a tool for saving our civilization?
Posted by: anti-uffe at January 10, 2007 5:12 PM
While it is true that Le Pen has been associated with anti-Semitic groups and is or was anti-Semitic himself, his daughter, Marine seems different.
I believe she visited Israel a while back in a effort to show that she is not anti-Semitic. She has clearly distanced herself from the far-right extremists and is trying to reform the National Front.
She created an organization called "Le Pen Generations," of which the "National Circle of Jewish Frenchmen," are members I believe.
She has also critisized her 78 year-old father, supports homosexual rights, etc. etc. But she is tough on Muslim crime and Muslim immigration.
It will be interesting to see how voters view her.
at January 10, 2007 5:21 PM
I totally agree with special_guest's second comment. Unfortunately, there are those in the U.S. (and here at JW?) that would consider even that as "hate."
at January 10, 2007 5:26 PM
km posted: I actually believe that some of the noise we have seen from labour these last few months such as Jack Straws veil debate and Blairs integration speech a few months back is a direct result of rising support for the BNP. I for one am all for keeping the pressure on.
I agree with you. The increased support for the BNP, and its effect on the other parties, is the best way forward. An actual electoral victory of the BNP OTH, will unite the other parties, with the Muslims in alliance. The BNP will be a minority party anyway, and any attempt by them to implement their policies on Islam, will lead to their defeat, and will hand victory to Islam. This is what Muslims will themselves loudly proclaim. In Britain, with our traditional way of doing things via parliament, this is the best way forward. In France, it is different.
Posted by: DP111 at January 10, 2007 5:26 PM
"his daughter, Marine seems different."
-- from a posting above
Possibly. Perhaps she is more like Fini, in his attack on the racial laws of Mussolini, and less like Alessandra Mussolini, loyal figlia di papa. But that is not enough for someone to vote for Le Pen. One hopes he will disappear, and with him the movement, so that those who, in desperation, have supported him will now go to another candidate -- and at this point it looks as though the logical choice would be Sarkozy, although Segolene Royal may be made of harder stuff than some think, and Philippe de Villiers deserves all the support he can get. Ideally, if he would hold the balance of power between the other two parties, so that they would have to court him, since apparently he is not electable on his own (at least not yet). But strictly on the issues, P. de V. is the best candidate.
at January 10, 2007 5:32 PM
anti-uffe posted: Accepting these premises, could (and I am asking, not being sure about the answer) le Pen be useful as the catalyst of this wake-up call, his mere taking office triggering riots in the banlieus, riots which will only escalate if he tries to have them put down? Is this escalation preferable on a larger scale and in the longer term than having someone like those suggested by Hugh, Sarkozy and de Villiers (sp.?), who might represent a better understanding of the situation, but will not have the guts to undertake any draconian measures, causing the situation to veer toward the point of no return that I mentioned above?
As I mentioned previously, only a revolution on the street, will change the political landscape. Political parties of any sort, are of no use at the moment, as all they will do is to slow down Islamisation at best, and thus will make the change to an Islamic society less dramatic.
at January 10, 2007 5:38 PM
Excellent article, Hugh.
Le Pen would be a hideous disaster for France. Keep him penned up (for the sake of civilization!)
I think the ultra-right-wing is a huge danger for Europe.
It's these ultra-right-wing types who are preventing legitimate, moderate, centrist parties from dealing with immigration issues. The same occurs here in Canada -- the Conservative Party is so fearful of being tarred with the allegation of being "anti-immigrant", "xenophobic" or "racist" that they cannot deal with immigration -- this political fear (which is real) paralyzes them. The Conservatives simply can't make sensible immigration changes.
Posted by: J.S. at January 10, 2007 6:05 PM
"... and at this point it looks as though the logical choice would be Sarkozy..." - Hugh
Al-Chirac is doing everything within his power to undermine Sarkozy. French politics is a nasty affair! Enjoy reading your comments Hugh. Very much.
at January 10, 2007 6:05 PM
I'm no expert on French politics, but Hugh's argument about the effects of electoral success for Le Pen seems implausible. Someone like Le Pen seems likely to make non-mainstream views more rather than less "respectable". Electoral success would presumably indicate that Le Pen himself had become respectable in the eyes of a large segment of the population. So how can one maintain that this success would generally discredit anyone else who held views resembling Le Pen's on some points? Wouldn't it tend to make others opposed to Muslim immigration look like moderates by comparison? Meanwhile, the mainstream parties would be jostling to appropriate parts of Le Pen's platform in an attempt to win back voters from him. One hopes that this could be done by using the more reasonable parts of that platform.
Or to look at it in another way, in countries where there is (as yet) no electorally strong counterpart to Le Pen, such as Britain, are there any signs that this happy state of political consensus has produced a greater willingness to face up to the Muslim problem? Or does it merely allow the politicians to indefinitely postpone any attempt to deal with the issue?
at January 10, 2007 6:27 PM
On a related note: J.S. just pointed out that the Conservatives in Canada are terrified of being painted as right-wing extremists. But since this occurs in the total absence of any kind of genuine extreme right-wing party, it tends to cast doubt on, rather than reinforce, the claim that it is the presence of Le Pen that seems to be paralyzing the minds of mainstream French politicians.
Posted by: Mr. Spog at January 10, 2007 6:33 PM
More bad news with respect to Le Pen. Apparently, he (along with 20 others from a half-dozen EU countries) is forming a new ultra-right-wing European Union party. It's comprised primarily of anti-semites (some from Romania -- they despise Turks and Gypsies and, well, fill in the blank.)
Also, Le Pen has a daughter who appears to be interested in this new EU political party.
Posted by: J.S. at January 10, 2007 6:51 PM
Mr. Spog wrote: "...the Conservatives in Canada are terrified of being painted as right-wing extremists. But since this occurs in the total absence of any kind of genuine extreme right-wing party, it tends to cast doubt on... the claim that it is the presence of Le Pen that seems to be paralyzing the minds of mainstream French politicians."
hmmm, actually there was a so-called "ultra-right-wing" party -- they were called the Reform Party (the leader was Preston Manning from Alberta -- and, they did have antisemitic elements, but Manning out rid of them). Before the existence of the "Conservative Party" -- there was the "Progressive Conservative Party", but they had only 2 members in Parliament, so they merged with the Reform Party (and were re-named "The Conservative Party.") So, in the background (historically speaking) the new, centrist Conservative Party fears greatly any kind of association with that Reform party linkage (the Reform Party was considered much too right-wing in its views to ever appeal to a broad spectrum of Canadians.) Thus, the Conservative Party tries to distance itself from anything even hinting at a Reform-like policy (which would be in favor, of say, reducing immigration into Canada - that was a Reform Party issue.)
at January 10, 2007 7:03 PM
I do not want integration, send them back, integration is like sending a conficted childrapist who raped 10 children back into society because he is now ''integrated into society again'', if a immigrant wants to integrate into a society he will, muslims don't want that, you Americans have to know that its not the same situation as with the African Americans in America, atleast they speak English and are not anti America, there are only a lot of African Americans who make a lot of crime, but there is not some evil ideology behind that, its just ordinary crime.
muslims are not your typical immigrant, The Netherlands was occupied during World War 2 by the nazi's, you don't hear the people back then talking about wanting to ''integrate'' the nazi's into Dutch culture, no, they fought back and kicked them all out!
at January 10, 2007 7:13 PM
J.S.: Comparing the Canadian Reform Party with European neo-fascists is ridiculous.
Posted by: Mr. Spog at January 10, 2007 7:18 PM
Yes, drawing such a comparison might be ridiculous, but then you'd have to convince the CBC of that (along with the Toronto Star, etc., etc.) They all pegged The Reform Party as a "far right-wing party." In Ontario the hostility to the Reform Party was quite open and histrionic.
Posted by: J.S. at January 10, 2007 7:30 PM
"In Germany, there is no one called 'right-wing' who can conceivably be acceptable" -- Hugh
What about Angela Merkel's soft center-right CDU? I think they're ok. Or Edmund Stoiber's CSU in Bavaria? They look like a respectable center-right party. At least I haven't seen in them those Jew-hating, America-hating, fascistoid elements so clearly present in Le Pen's Front National.
Posted by: Martin at January 10, 2007 7:46 PM
Hugh
You are dead wrong here - I dont care if he is a nazi - its time to make a pack with anyone who will change the status quo and Le Pen just might be the man . Whats the alternative - NOTHING - more of the same - lets roll the dice and let the cards fall - its a game no-one can predict the outcome of but it will cahege the rules of the game completely if he wins and we desperately need somthing .
Posted by: johnmac at January 10, 2007 7:50 PM
"I dont care if he is a nazi..."
-- from a posting above
You don't? Then what is it about Islam that offends you, if you would be willing to vote for a Nazi? Why should the totalitarian nature of Islam offend you, if that of the Nazis does not?
Le Pen, by the way, would not as you say "change the status quo." He would prevent the status quo from changing. He would prevent a real understanding of Islam from spreading. It is not the Le Pens but Oriana Fallaci and Ayaan Hirsi Ali and Ibn Warraq and Bat Ye'or who make possible real understanding and opposition to Islam.
Le Pen is just as likely to turn around and make a deal. So many far-rightists (the only people ato whom that adjective "rightist" should be applied) are quite content to make deals with Islam, and some have even converted. It's not much of a leap. Nor is it much of a leap from the far-left to Islam. Those of a collectivist and totalitarian, I-want-to-follow-orders-about-everything mentalisty are most likely to be satisfied, nowadays, with Islam. It's just the ticket. Under the skin, Le Pen is one of those.
Posted by: Hugh at January 10, 2007 9:02 PM
La Pen does not have the clout (not enough people support him) to change anything. La Pen is far more hated than he is admired. Last time when La Pen got a mere 7 percent of the vote in France, there were massive, massive, angry demonstrations throughout France -- all protesting against La Pen. They despise him.
The same thing is true for all the other ultra-right-wing parties in Europe, they garner small followings (but are far more hated than liked). (There's some ultra-right wing-nut German, a fascist, he runs around riding a white horse -- or is he dead now? Anyway, he's also deeply hated by many, many people).
What the ultra-right does is simply galvanize the Left. The ultra-right-wingers unify and unite the Left. Thus, a La Pen will NEVER be able to accomplish anything, even though elected, he would never have the power to do anything, except spout off, making racist statements.
What La Pen will be able to accomplish with this ultra-right EU party, will be to bring Turkey into the EU. How? Simple. What will happen is that politicians in the EU will be required to demonstrate that they do NOT share the same racist, anti-Turk sentiments as does La Pen's party. So, how will this be demonstrated? It will only be by allowing Turkey entrance into the EU. This is what will happen, mark my words. And you can thank La Pen.
Thus, La Pen's party can be considered a victory for Islam in Europe.
Posted by: J.S. at January 10, 2007 9:04 PM
I certainly did not have any of the larger German parties in mind as qualifying for the epithet "right-wing" and therefore for the further characterization as "unacceptable." Not Merkel. Not even Stoiber.
Posted by: Hugh at January 10, 2007 9:04 PM
How could Le Pen be worse than Chirac? I will cheer for Villiers, but he does not get the coverage of Royal and Sarkozy get. The MSM is as biased and leftist in Europe than America. What a disaster Europe now finds itself. And still not a single leader has ever studied the Koran (not read the Koran, but studied it, not guided by apologists but real critcs of Islam.) Not one.
Posted by: John Sobieski at January 10, 2007 10:01 PM
Chirac is a crook and, if he lives long enough, may even be put on trial for his corruption. He no longer counts, except for whatever damage he can inflict on Sarkozy. Le Pen is a positive menace to those who, such as Philippe Villiers, see that the problem of Islam in France must be dealt with now, and that few among the French elite can 'scape whipping for what they allowed to hapen. He is also repugnant in every sense, and his world-view is not all that different from that of many Muslims. And he makes it very difficult for views which should be respectable and seen as rational to get the hearing they deserve, for they are waved away as if they must make anyone who dares to introduce them a supporter of Le Pen. He's like Joseph McCarthy, but much much worse. Because McCarthy, after all, was finally done in by the U.S. Army (those Army-McCarthy hearings, that were televised), and anti-Communism as a stance did not suffer from McCarthy for very long. But Le Pen is 78, and has been around doing what he does for the last quarter-century. And that is one important reason for the inability of the French electorate to become sensible about its horrific domestic problem, that will not go away.
at January 10, 2007 10:12 PM
"not a single leader has ever studied the Koran (not read the Koran, but studied it, not guided by apologists but real critcs of Islam.)"
No "studying" need be done -- at least of the Koran. Only simple reading. All one has to do is read all the disturbing damning passages, then resist the PC Multiculturalist spasms that distract, such as:
1) "those passages are out of context"
2) "the Bible is just as bad"
3) "what about the Crusades, the Inquisition, the witch burnings, American slavery, Hiroshima, Vietnam, neo-con pedophiles...?" etc.
4) "Are you lumping all Muslims together and being a bigot?"
With that done (i.e., with these stupid questions ignored), one can ask whether such disturbing and damning Koranic passages are in fact influential in the Muslim world today, and ask to what degree they are influential, and how and why -- hopefully without imposing the PC Multiculturalist template whereby there must exist a vast majority of moderate Muslims who cannot possibly be devoted to the letter and spirit of those texts. That's where the study begins. No need to be a scholarly hermeneutical exegete of ancient religious texts.
at January 10, 2007 10:31 PM
Voltaire writes: "Hasn't Le Pen made overtures to muslims in France in order to garner votes?"
Yes, he has. The National Front is campaigning actively in the banlieues. No Pasaran has been covering it. What happens to Hugh's thesis if Le Pen has changed sides?
Posted by: tvdog at January 10, 2007 10:41 PM
tvdog asks: "What happens to Hugh's thesis if Le Pen has changed sides?"
As has been repeated frequently the ultra-right and Islamists have a shared world-view. Hence, to see the two in alignment would NOT come as a surprise -- in a way, as fascists, they're bed-fellows already.
at January 10, 2007 10:46 PM
Sorry guys I like Le Pen. I am starting to find this site hypocritical. There are a lot of anti-hellenic, anti-slavic, anti-armenian Jews in fact probably they are in the majority. yet you don't see me and others supporting muslims against israel. Yet this guy Le Pen might be rumoured to be anti semetic so its better then to let the Muslims take over France. Sorry get over yourselves.
at January 11, 2007 1:48 AM
So many far-rightists (the only people ato whom that adjective "rightist" should be applied)Why? What's wrong with that adjective? Just because there are some wackos who tend to be anywhere on a scale of 5 (Liberal) to 10 (Marxist) who treat it as a slur? I don't believe in anything remotely Socialist/Communist/Liberal in any country - I didn't in India [or else, I'd have parked myself permanently in Left Bengal and joined the Communist Party (Marxist) (yes, there are others)], I don't here in the US! I strongly support property rights, favor minimal (if not zero) role of government in public life, oppose any minimum wage, oppose gun control, support religious freedom, am ambivalent about early term abortions and oppose late term ones, oppose any government recognition of marriage (as opposed to it being a religious/social institution), support a strong military, et al. Only case I make an exception for all the above items is emergencies, like when Islam needs to be dealt with (e.g. I would support eminent domain to prevent mosques from being built): If it wasn't for the possibility of terrorists taking down planes, I'd be opposed to showing ID at the boarding gate.
By most standards in almost any country, I'd be a 'Rightist'. And you know what - it's something I'm proud of. I also reject the notion that the Nazis/Fascists were Rightists. NAZI stood for NAtional soZIalist Deutsch Arbeiter Partei i.e. National SOCIALIST German LABOR Partei. Why is it that the emphasis on National and Deutsch is used to categorize them as Right Wing, when they didn't support property rights, religious freedoms, gun rights? Why not categorize them as Leftist on the basis of Sozialist and Arbeiter, since they nationalized industry, seized private property? You call them Rightist on the basis of their building up their military? Well, so did the Soviets and Red Chinese. You call them Rightist on the basis of their racism/anti-Semitism? So were the Soviets vis a vis the Jews, and also, in the KGB, the Soviets tended to trust Central Asians more than, say, Estonians, Lithuanians, Latvians and in some cases even Russians and Ukrainians (from what I recall reading from Oleg Gordievsky). What exactly is it that makes the Nazis rightists, when the Soviets, who weren't too much different from them (actually, according to the Guiness Book of World Records, more people died at the hands of the Chinese Communists and the Soviets than at the hands of the Nazis), were universally acknowledged as Leftists (except for clowns who in the post Soviet era claimed that the Soviets weren't real Communists.)
Posted by: Infidel Pride at January 11, 2007 2:58 AM
Hugh, good you raised this topic
from the article:
"who can conceivably be acceptable; Belgium and the Scandinavian countries, however, each require specific local knowledge to decide where one has a right to worry and where some are labelled "right-wing" or "far right-wing" only because the press is itself propagandizing against them, as it always used to do against the Lebanese Christians. "
In case of the Belgium "Vlaams Belang" former Flemish Block we should be extremely cautious. Lately they are hunting for Jewish votes in Anvers. They are opposing in the right way Abou Jahjah and his Euro Arab League. But members of the party have a history in Holocaust Negationism. Often the smell of "brown" symphaties is rising up and the demagogy is very hard to swallow.
Yesterday in Dutch NRC it was said that for the coming EU elections "Vlaams Belang" Bulgarian Ataka, Front National from Le Pen and the Rumenian "Great-Rumenia" will take part in forming a block in the European Parlement. Name of the group will be (translated from Dutch) Identity, Souvereignity and Transparancy.
Dutch Geert Wilders is refusing to join them. "If you are reading political programs of the joining East European Parties, you get the shiffers over your back". That's very positive.
And even Geert Wilders should be treated with extreme cautiousness not so much because of him but because of the people who surround him.
Posted by: wally klomp at January 11, 2007 7:51 AM
Do people who post here in support of Le Pen know that he is developing some Muslim allies at the moment in France via two Muslim celebrities, one a noted anti-Semite. And he is a catastrophe for anti-Jihadists in France, the sooner he is out of the scene the better.
In the last Presidential election I came across a large number of people who voted for Le Pen as a tactical move to knock Josplin out in the first round.
Posted by: Daffersd at January 11, 2007 8:26 AM
"Not one of those mentioned is Arab"
far be it from me to rain on your (increasingly obvious) anti-arab parade but both Mezri Haddad and Jbil Kébir are arabs
you are correct about kaci (Kabyle)Mohsseini (Iranian)
i wonder how long it'll take for this post to get deleted by the JW champions of free speech
Posted by: theeternalmuz at January 11, 2007 11:41 AM
The terms "right" and "left", "conservative" and "liberal" get thrown around so much it is surprising to know that their meanings are relative, and have changed over time. In particular, the word "liberal" in its traditional meaning coresponds to much of the American "conservative" programme. Adam Smith, the founding fathers, these were the true liberals. The American designation "liberal" is actually the progressive political programme of government interventionism, and increasingly also intellectualized censorship, rationalized in the name of social engineering or avoiding offending someone.
It all ends up being a bunch of namecalling. A lot of people who deride "liberals" are themselves actually liberals, by its traditional meaning. It is worth nothing that the values of traditional liberalism are opposed to the cornball position of the likes of LePen, and of course Islam, the most illiberal of faiths.
Posted by: Quijybo at January 11, 2007 1:50 PM
I agree with pretty much everything Hugh says. Only one footnote. Alessandra Mussolini was by no means always the loyal keeper of the flame that her current stance makes her. She started in national politics as a very left-wing right-winger indeed, all for the legitimacy of democracy, modernizing the party, unifying the moderate right, and for good measure a fat dollop of feminism. When Fini deliberately broke the old MSI party, letting the hardliners break out and fund their own marginal blackshirt party, while he poached displaced Liberal (Conservative, in Italy) and Christian Democrat members, she was with him all the way. Her falling-out with him was wholly personal, and probably to do with his low estimate of her abilities, and since then she has suddenly veered to the right and done her best - not altogether successfully - to rally the scattered hard right to the name of Mussolini. At any rate she is wholly irrelevant to Italian politics, whereas Fini looks like a possible future Prime Minister.
Posted by: Paolo at January 11, 2007 4:06 PM
"Not one of those mentioned is Arab"
far be it from me to rain on your (increasingly obvious) anti-arab parade but both Mezri Haddad and Jbil Kébir are arabs
you are correct about kaci (Kabyle)Mohsseini (Iranian)
i wonder how long it'll take for this post to get deleted by the JW champions of free speech"
-- from a posting above
If Mezri Haddad and Jbil Kebir are Arabs, then I have been misinformed and in turn have misinformed others. Sorry.
As to the comment about deletion, this website is open to the public to visit. Comments, however, are a different thing -- they are monitored, imperfectly and incompletely, and if a poster, having been warned (often warned silently) continues to offer a reason for being banned -- violent or coarse language, illiteracy, displays of irrationality such as a penchant for conspiracy theories, and my favorite -- infuriating the principals -- then they will be banned.
But the offer of a correction is not a cause for banning.
However, the kinds of remarks you offer in the second part of your posting are.
Posted by: Hugh at January 11, 2007 5:00 PM
Mezri Haddad is a Tunisian philosopher, in a Tunisia safe for secularists, thanks to Bourguiba, the Destour Party, and the police-state of Ben Ali, and unsafe for Gannouchi. He has denounced those who have reduced the Qur'an to, as he put it, "an antisemitic lampoon." Tunisia, like Oman for quite different reasons, is an anomaly among the Arab states.
Jbil Kebir is I think, Président du Mouvement des Maghrébins Laïques de France. I am surprised to be told that he is, or considers himself to be, an "Arab" but accept that designation if he does. He is an apostate.
So let me rephrase it. Of the four names mentioned, two are non-Arabs, and two, whom I have been told are Arabs, include a completely secular philosopher, Mezri Haddad, who may even be a Muslim-for-identification-purposes-only Muslim, and Jbil Kebir, who is an apostate from Islam.
And in the Mouvement des Maghrébins Laïques de France I wonder just how many Arabs are members, as opposed to those maghrebins who are Berbers. An apostate whom I trust, and who lives in France, is the one who told me that there are very few Arabs and, indeed, he could not name any, in that organization. But perhaps he, in turn, has been misinformed. I'll find out.
Posted by: Hugh at January 11, 2007 5:16 PM
islam is a clever whore who sleeps with the Nazis by night, plays mistress to the Socialists in the morn and rubs the tummies of Liberal farts in the afternoon.
No rest for the wicked, as they say!
Posted by: Hermit at January 11, 2007 6:20 PM
Wild Slutty Woman:
Your analogy of LePen and the BNP being the same is ridiculous. Please support your arguments with current examples and not a perceptions that goes back decades.
As I have said before: George Bush devolved from the party of Abraham Lincoln but that doesn't mean that he has any resemblance to that great man or carries an ounce of his foresight.
LePen is an evil racist with more akin to the the Islamist brand of totalitarianism. The BNP has a clear perception of the evil of Islam with recipes to solve the problem. I don't see any relationship here.
Posted by: Briars at January 12, 2007 8:22 AM
to hierophant
yes im the god of israel & i have a historical dimension in my thinking. nazs arent the current threat. the muz are
common sense which should be called good sense cuz it sure aint common
Posted by: god at January 13, 2007 2:46 PM
hierophant if you can give up yr leftist template for just a moment youll be more rational
Posted by: god at January 13, 2007 2:48 PM
Comments are turned off and archived for this entry.
(Note: Comments on articles are unmoderated, and do not necessarily reflect the views of Dhimmi Watch or Robert Spencer. Comments that are off-topic, offensive, slanderous, or otherwise annoying may be summarily deleted. However, the fact that particular comments remain on the site IN NO WAY constitutes an endorsement by Robert Spencer of the views expressed therein.)