you forgot to mention one of the harem women dumped in sacks in the desert when no longer wanted -- the don't live easily either.

if you live in saudi you find out how the foreign media barely scratch the surface with what really happens in the kingdom.

I wonder if they will send 20year old single female stunents to live there easily. ha.

Posted by: exposesithlords at January 13, 2007 7:50 AM

I'm sorry, but if it's illegal for me to carry the Bible there, I won't go there.

Posted by: Kepha at January 13, 2007 7:52 AM

“I often tell people that if I had to move from the US, I could live in Saudi Arabia easily.”--Payne

http://www.freedomhouse.org/religion/pdfdocs/FINAL%20FINAL.pdf
Saudi Hate Literature

“It is not an accident that 15 of the 19 terrorists who attacked us on September 11 were Saudis. The New York Times (January 27, 2002) cited a poll conducted by Saudi Intelligence, and shared with the U.S. government, that over 95% of Saudis between the ages of 25 and 41 have sympathy for Osama bin Laden.”

Article by Spencer covering Saudi hate literature in schools, grade-by-grade.
http://www.jihadwatch.org/archives/011525.php

More on the same case: (worldmag)

• A ninth-grade textbook on the Hadith, or sayings of the prophet Muhammad, emphasizes hostility toward Jews: "The hour [of judgment] will not come until the Muslims fight the Jews and kill them."

http://www.worldmag.com/articles/11928

Posted by: Archimedes at January 13, 2007 7:59 AM

I’m afraid that what J. Gregory Payne says actually has a grain of truth.

Muslims would probably still be fighting their jihad with swords and camels if it wasn’t for the development of its oil industry by foreigners and foreign capital. Apparently it’s comfortable enough in Saudi Arabia, still, for some idiots to live and work there.

Posted by: Steve Cheng, the infidel mathematician at January 13, 2007 8:29 AM

I presume there is not a 'Mrs. Payne' or (if he is gay) a 'significant other' to have an opinion about this 'lifestyle' change?

Posted by: poetcomic1 at January 13, 2007 9:16 AM

Of course he could. He wouldn't have to wait so long for the checks to arrive.

Posted by: Hugh at January 13, 2007 9:27 AM

Similar idiocy, jihad interfaith dialogue comes to Philly:

January 9, 2007 - San Francisco, CA - PipeLineNews.org - The caption under the picture of the girl in the white hijab holding a plate to be filled with lasagna read, "Interfaith students prepare dinner for the Mitzvah Food Pantry." Standing shoulder to shoulder with students from Gratz Jewish College and the Archbishop Carroll High School at the November 16 Sukkat Shalom/Peace Shelter/Dar Us Salaam event was Ibrahim Muhaimin of the Quba Institute for Arabic and Islamic Studies who declared that the experience gave him the opportunity to "go to his new found friends with questions about their beliefs," i.e., challenging them with Islam.

Gratz College professor "Rabbi" Carol Harris-Shapiro, a board member of the Interfaith Center of Greater Philadelphia which helped organize the event enthused, saying that "students form friendships that would not occur normally" and adding that the year-long program allows the time for "real bonds to develop...and all of the components reinforce each other...they are learning about each other as they are learning about the world..." http://www.jewishexponent.com/article/11431

Unfortunately for "Rabbi" Harris-Shapiro, the Quba Institute of Arabic and Islamic Studies preaches a world-view much closer to al-Qaeda than the fuzzy kumbaya on public display at this event and has made no attempt to hide the group's Islamist roots.

According to the QIAI website, the school "is a corollary of the International Muslim Brotherhood' [the radical Egyptian Islamist organization responsible for assassinating Anwar Sadat, from which grew al-Qaeda, first WTC bomber Omar Abdel "the Blind Sheikh" Rahman, among others] and lists former Sudanese president Hassan Al Turabi as one of their three "political luminaries" who have "added their voices to the efforts to replenish and support the International Muslim Brotherhood's Educational agenda...and to expand the competency of their outreach [da'wa] programs..."

Ibrahim Muhaimin, the father of the above quoted Ibrahim Muhaimin, sits on the board of directors of Interfaith Center of Greater Philadelphia. On the QIAI website he describes himself as, "the Sheikh Anwar ibn Nafea Muhaimin, CEO & Imam Mufti The International Muslim Brotherhood, Inc. & Subsidiaries http://www.qubainstitute.com/anwar_bio.html

The other two QIAI "luminaries" are the Director of the University of Malaysia, Abdul-Hamid Abu Sulaiman and Medhat Hussanein, the Minister of Finance of the Arab Republic of Egypt.

The Mitzvah Pantry event involving the Learning and Leadership Institute of the Jewish Community College of Gratz High School should be looked upon as a primer for how Islamists exploit the Western desire for interfaith, using it instead to create false impressions of tolerance while granting themselves unwarranted legitimacy.

As we noted in a previous article:

"Interfaith is perhaps the most disingenuous of all Islamist tactics, relying on non-Muslim's almost complete ignorance of the tenets of the religion. Most basic is that to Muslims "faith sharing" is a one way proposition, a means of recruiting converts - jihad through da'wa. In this view all non-Muslims are seen as potential Muslims. Further complicating the offering of interfaith sharing as a panacea is that the rejection of Islam is a grave offense - apostasy - and the prescribed penalty is death - converts take note. The Mitzvah Pantry's "Peace Shelter" meal program also afforded the Council on American Islamic Relations [CAIR] - a Saudi funded front group for Hamas - the chance to pursue its cultural jihadist agenda through the participation of Muhammed Aziz.

Aziz is the Imam and president of the Islamic Society of Valley Forge [ISVF] who spoke to the participants about "hospitality in the Muslim tradition." In addition to running the Islamist ISVF, Aziz is also a board member of CAIR. His step daughter Adeeba Al Zaman runs the CAIR Philadelphia office.

In the article in the Jewish Exponent entitled "Night of Service…Role of Hospitality" about the Food Pantry program, Graetz High School Student Marshall Moritz said he was "grateful" for the opportunity to learn about Islam and Christianity. Catholic school student Kimberly Spadero gushed "we all have the same ideas...even though the rituals in each religion differ..."

Jihad, suicide bombings, and beheadings?

The program outlined above is shockingly typical; motivated primarily by a sense of feel-goodism, Jewish and Christian groups are actually furthering the spread of Islamism because they are not exercising even a modicum of judgment before engaging in such phony interfaith exercises.

http://www.pipelinenews.org/index.cfm?page=mitzvah10907%2Ehtm

Posted by: Nick Danger at January 13, 2007 10:03 AM

"said J. Gregory Payne, director general of the Saudi-American Exchange, a public diplomacy organization founded in the wake of the Sept. 11 attacks. “I often tell people that if I had to move from the US, I could live in Saudi Arabia easily.”

1- He's getting a lotta mulla there for saying that. I, myself, could live easily in: a- New Zealand b - American Southwest c- Hawaii - yoohoo-anybody for Hawaii? Is it still as good as the travel agencies say?
And

2 - you male gender out there, you must excuse me, I like men, so nothing personal, but " I don't hear a woman saying they're like to live in those places.

Posted by: allat at January 13, 2007 10:24 AM

"Catholic school student Kimberly Spadero gushed "we all have the same ideas...even though the rituals in each religion differ...""

I weep for the future.

Posted by: Anthony at January 13, 2007 10:41 AM

“I often tell people that if I had to move from the US, I could live in Saudi Arabia easily.”

I did live there for five years and believe me, it's not easy. The dhimmi debilitations are alive and well. How many in this room have actually met a bona fide emancipated slave? Anybody? I have, in Jeddah in 1984. He was freed by royal decree in 1962. That's not a typo, it really is 1962, not 1862.

There is no freedom of conscience in Saudi Arabia, nor treatment under the law equal to Muslim men for women and non-Muslims. The Kingdom does not recognize the legitimacy of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights. Possession of pork or alcoholic beverages are crimes punishable by imprisonment and public flogging. Beheadings and amputations take place before large crowds gathered in front of the major cities' main mosques after Friday prayers every week. Honor killings are so common that they are not even reported in the local newspapers as being newsworthy.

It's not easy for Saudis to live in Saudi Arabia. What makes Mr. Payne think it would be easy for him? Methinks Mr. Payne is either lying or profoundly naieve.

Posted by: DrMack at January 13, 2007 11:58 AM

"Catholic school student Kimberly Spadero gushed 'we all have the same ideas...even though the rituals in each religion differ...'"
-- from the article above

Ignorance and Gush. Sentimentality and Ignorance and Gush. Never to be replaced, apparently, by the facts. Always to be accepted, always to be substituted for the truth.

The usual nonsense that prevents clarity and an intelligent self-defense:

People Are The Same The Whole World Over.

The Family of Men.

We Are All Just Alike Under the Skin.

Bomfoggery, beyond anything offered in "Going My Way."

Posted by: Hugh at January 13, 2007 12:13 PM

Here is the MIssion Statement of the Saudi Global Exchange (do visit its website, do find out more about it, do inquire as deeply as you can into its finances, and what's in it for J. Gregory Payne, Ph.D., of Emerson College):

Mission Statement
Founded by Prince Faisal F. Al Saud and Dr. J. Gregory Payne and working with Mohamed Khalil in the wake of the 9/11 tragedy, the Saudi Global Exchange (SGE) is committed to advocate for personal, grassroots, public diplomacy in order to promote understanding through communication. The Clinton Global Initiative has praised the SGE, the first grass-roots effort public diplomacy after 9/11.

The SGE provides academics, professionals and citizens-at-large with an opportunity to visit Saudi Arabia and to see the beautiful country and meet its warm, generous people. Participants come from diverse international backgrounds, and over 100 individuals had the opportunity to tour the country.

The SGE sponsors and participates in lectures, various international forums and conferences which afford Exchange alumni opportunities to recount their experiences. Participants also have published international academic research, newspaper articles and media interviews based upon their experiences and insights. Presentation topics have been wide ranging, including globally important matters such as analysis of Saudi-Global relations, media coverage, health communication, sports communication, leadership, negotiation and intercultural and interfaith understanding. SGE events have occurred in major metropolitan centers such as Boston, New York, Chicago, Washington, Los Angeles, Miami, London, Riyadh, Jeddah, Behrain, Paris and Barcelona and at prestigious events such as the National Communication Association Convention and International Academy of Business Disciplines Convention.

The SGE publishes a periodic newsletter, The News Exchange, as well as produces various media products on our activities.

Welcome from Our Co-Founders

Greetings!

Thank you for visiting our site. We are in the process of expanding our organization and our website. Due to the success of the Saudi Global Exchange (formally the Saudi American Exchange) - the first grass roots effort after 9/11 - which has involved over 1000 in our activities, and praise from President Bill Clinton, HRH and U.S. Ambassador Prince Turki from Saudi Arabia, and business, educational and government and non-government leaders worldwide among others, we are evolving into the GLOBAL EXCHANGE. Our mission will remain the same - "Promoting Understanding Through Communication" - but our scope will now be global in the effort to make our world a more humane and peaceful place we all share.

Please check back often as we update the website. We encourage you to read about Clinton Global Iniative project and learn about the historic visit of Sonia "Tita" Puopolo, who was the first family member of a 9/11 victim to visit Saudi Arabia at the Jeddah Economic Forum. Tita was a classmate of co-founder Faisal F. Al Saud and a student of co-founder Dr. J.Gregory Payne at Emerson College in Boston. Our efforts began on 9/11 and will continue to encourage peace and hope for all people. Our future activities include more trips to the Kingdom and activities in Behrain, Dubai, Barcelona and Los Angeles. We are especially proud of our Los Angeles program on media literacy (visit website).

Join us in our efforts! Check back soon for our list of activities for 2006 and beyond.

Regards,

Faisal F. Al Saud
J. Gregory Payne, Ph.D
Co-Founders

Posted by: Hugh at January 13, 2007 12:16 PM

Go then.

Posted by: A_Plague_on_Both_Houses at January 13, 2007 12:55 PM

U.S. political leadership continues to operate under flawed assumptions despite all contrary evidence. A list:

a) All things calling themselves religions are good.
b) Islam has been hijacked by extremists.
c) All people want the same things out of life.
d) Everyone would love to live in a western-style representative republic with guaranteed protection for minority and individual rights if they just had the chance.
e) Wealthy western nations 'owe' something to third world tyrannies and theocracies because they've pulled so far ahead by every measurable standard.
f) More material aid and talks with the likes of Kim Il Jong, Hizbullah and the Iranian theocracy will change things for the better.

The United States and other G7-type nations will continue to make the same mistakes in judgment until these assumptions are no longer underlying government policy.

Posted by: A_Plague_on_Both_Houses at January 13, 2007 12:57 PM

SGE is nothing but an exercise in saudi propaganda.

If they really want to "Promote Understanding Through Communication" then perhaps they should start closure at home e.g with their school text books and quaran.

Then once their citizenary has more "understanding" about other faiths and cultures, whey wouldn't volunteer themselves so readily to flying planes into buildings and other such "hilarious escapades".

As always, isn't it the case with arabs/muslims of you understand us, but we will go on having our own understanding of you based on the delusions of our Mr Mo.

Posted by: Hermit at January 13, 2007 1:26 PM

Not all Saudis hate Americans!

only 15 out of 19 do

Posted by: november1981 at January 13, 2007 1:37 PM

Perhaps Mr. Payne isn't lying or naive. Perhaps he enjoys the prospect of house servants who are his virtual slaves, available not only for house service at a pittance but for his sexual access without fear of punishment or even social disapproval.

Perhaps he enjoys the sight of women immured in stifling cloth, knowing how they must be suffering in the heat while he stays cool and comfortable, because such is the will of Allah.

Perhaps the sound of church bells annoys him, and he is blessedly free of it during his sojourns there.

Some people actually do enjoy the suffering of "inferiors," and Saudi Arabia is the go-to destination for them.

Posted by: Marwan'sDaughter at January 13, 2007 2:58 PM

A little more on J. Gregory Payne:

Organizational & Political Communication Faculty
J. Gregory Payne
Associate Professor (1983)
B.A., University of Illinois; M.A., University of Illinois; M.P.A., Harvard University; Ph.D., University of Illinois

Dr. Payne is an author, speechwriter and expert on political communication, ethics, and docudrama. His recent research publications include articles on ethics and the mass media, health communication, and political communication. He is the founding Director of the Emerson College Political Media Study Group, and has been the co-director of the Emerson Center on Ethics in Political and Health Communication. He is the author of Tom Bradley: The Impossible Dream, Mayday: Kent State, and the play Kent State: A Requiem. Dr. Payne is on the editorial boards of The Quarterly Journal of Speech, the Journal of Health Communication, and the Southern Speech Journal. He was the guest editor of the 1989, 1993, and 1997 special editions on political campaigns for the American Behavioral Scientist.

Current Courses: (SPRG07)
Code Course Information
OP263 Argument and Advocacy

4.00
Study of the art of advocacy. Students develop the logical, organizational and research skills that debate and other forms of oral and written advocacy require. Assignments include participation in debates about current political and legal controversies. Critical thinking skills are emphasized as tools both for advocates and audiences.
OP626 Crisis Communication

4.00
Students learn about the development of organizational and marketing communication strategies in crisis situations. Using case studies and fieldwork, students focus on the importance of internal communication and media relations during a crisis. Students also investigate preventive strategies that organizations should employ to avoid crises."

Take a look, too, at the busy professor on the telephone with an important client, possibly lending him for a quite reasonable sum his own expert advice on "organizational" this or "critical thinking" that, and of course "Crisis Communication." No doubt some Saudi princeling attended Emerson, and Payne got to know him, and they hit it off, and Payne saw his opportunities, and he took 'em, like Jay Gould.

And who can blame him? Harvard Business School is full of such people, busy packaging platitudes and then selling those platitudes, nicely packaged, on Harvard Business School stationery, to, say, the Government of Kazakhstan,and charging millions and millions for those platitudes. Why shouldn't J. Gregory Payne make a little something, too, even without the grand Harvard name, even at Emerson, a little something from the Saudis, for this splendid "Saudi-American" whatever it is.

And don't look too closely at Saudi textbooks, Saudi courses, Saudi imams on Saudi television, or the Saudi press. Don't talk too closely to American expatriates who have endured Saudi Arabia's primitive culture only because the money was so very good (and the first $75,000 is tax-free, don't forget), or talk to American airman treated as hired help by their Saudi masters, or would-be masters.

No, don't do that. Just think of J. Gregory Payne, and how tough it is to be a well-paid consultant if you are not at one of those "world-class" places with the Title on the Door. We can't all produce some screed in the Riva-Poor or Michael-Porter vein, can we? Nor can we all do that "Getting-to-Yes" stuff of Roger Fisher and his epigones. No, so let's just give the "Saudi-American" project its due, its sinister due.

We all have to make a living, anyway we can.

Don't we?

Posted by: Hugh at January 13, 2007 3:18 PM

I'm for chipping in and buying this idiot a ticket.

I knew people in the 80's who lived there as virtual prisoners in their compounds. Desparately hiding their Bibles and their booze. They were there with oil companies so they got away with a little more than most. But were still subject to that knock on the door and the fear.

Posted by: auntbea at January 13, 2007 3:22 PM

Ok... so take ten people, and put them in a Saudi airport with a great big cross on their chests.
Gone... ripped off, and perhaps worse.
Have them pull out their 'new testaments' taken away, ripped up.
Have them go and discuss theology- perhaps christian versus Islamic tenets. A criminal offense, and if a muslim chooses to convert, punishable by- death.
No public praying other than Islam. Criminal offense.
Be an atheist- go around saying that religion is facile and tyrannic.
Criminal offense.
Go discuss civil rights- criminal offense.
Now.... let's take the ten folks who would otherwise be in jail and take them to .... ta da....
Israel.
At the airport, El Al will no doubt profile them, and everyone else, asking them what they're doing in Israel.
So they tell them they want to visit and learn, and they're christian, with crosses, bibles- no problem, welcome to Israel.
They want to pray in churches, they want to visit all the holy sites, no problem welcome to israel.

In fact the atheist says he wants to see the sights but he doesn't believe in G-d, 'ho hum' welcome to Israel.

Oh.... the road signs that muslim showed me. When entering mecca- the signs say 'this road for muslims' and another says 'this road for nonmuslims'

Meaning it doesn't go to their 'holy shitty, er city'
Have a nice, non visit to hell.

Mark

Posted by: mgoldberg at January 13, 2007 4:14 PM

Nick Danger, most of the so-called "Christians" involved in "Interfaith" dialogue have a pretty poor understanding of the tenets of their own religion, to say nothing of utter ignorance of Islam.

As for "Rabbi" Carol, isn't there a Yiddish proverb "Besser a Bort ohn a Rav vi a Rahv ohn a bort"? (Better a beard without a rabbi than a rabbi without a beard--said about a shrewish, nagging wife) I know its OT, but I couldn't help myself.

Posted by: Kepha at January 13, 2007 7:27 PM

I take it that J Gregory is a male and will have no trouble transporting himself around the Kingdom in a vehicle, and will not require the permission of a male relative to leave the peaceable kingdom.

Posted by: dm60462 at January 13, 2007 9:06 PM

I read above someone is collecting for the one-way ticket. I'm in.

Let's throw in a Holy Bible, a crucifix and some rosaries perhaps.

Posted by: MeanieMo at January 13, 2007 9:27 PM

I'm having to write Gregory Payne in the margins on my uberdhimmi list as the page is full. Hey I got mine! What about you?

Posted by: John Sobieski at January 13, 2007 9:31 PM

The program outlined above is shockingly typical; motivated primarily by a sense of feel-goodism, Jewish and Christian groups are actually furthering the spread of Islamism because they are not exercising even a modicum of judgment before engaging in such phony interfaith exercises.

-posted by Nick Danger

This should be something the thousands of us who visit this site daily should be doing. We must place ourselves in these faux interfaith meetings and demand answers to the hard questions. We have a new founded Islamic school in my area that has been practicing this smoke and mirrors show to the delight of the local newspaper. A few questions about Aisha and some quotes from the Koran like 9:29 would be show stoppers.

Posted by: Briars at January 13, 2007 10:13 PM

Should you be related to a young western female who may be killed after a what is claimed to be a fall from a window, in Saudi Arabia, with injuries that make it look like murder and rumours of a relative of the house of Saud being involved, you should remember that bribes for arms contracts are not the only things a western government will connive in covering up.

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/allnews/tm_objectid=14247570&method=full&siteid=50143&headline=i-ve-kept-helen-in-a-morgue-for-25-years--i-won-t-bury-her-till-the-truth-is-out-name_page.html

Posted by: wallyUK at January 13, 2007 10:46 PM

It's so interesting that we want people in the west to read and really understand the koran and hadith: so that they see the real horror of that religion and political system. Whereas in islamic countries they are absolutely desperate that people don't read the bible. I'm not a Christian per se, but it's pretty obvious which book promotes better principles and a kinder way of life...

There is hope in this: muslims want religion, obviously their rulers are very afraid that people will want to convert, en masse. I hope they do. I don't think they are ready for agnosticism or atheism, so Buddhism or Christianity would be the best answer.

Posted by: Lili at January 14, 2007 1:24 AM

"I seen my opportunities and I took 'em" -- George Washington Plunkitt of Tammany Hall.

OT

For a while, I figured that consideration of the ideas of Plunkitt ("A Series of Very Plain Talks on Very Practical Politics" -- Plunkitt had no use for ideology nor policy: he saw something like "A chicken in every pot" as the key to success in politics) might help further the goals of President Bush in Iraq. But then I realized that in societies suffused with islam, while a chicken in every pot might be desired or expected, it would still not quiet the rumblings of jihad. The high-thinking ideologues who trumpet Iraq as a model, or wish to bring the good news of democracy to the muslims don't get it (it=islam). Nor do the self-imagined "practical politicians", who think economic development is some sort of key. Economics matter more or less, but the basic texts of islam are what really motivate the jihad.

Plunkitt had some bluster and some wisdom. His words are useful in a time and place. But not all times nor all places.

William Riordon's transcription of Plunkitt's talks is a kick to read, though: lots of good words like "sillygisms" and "sockdologer", and a generally politically incorrect attitude.

Posted by: del at January 14, 2007 11:21 AM

Is Mr. Payne a revert to Islam?

Also:

"We don’t just meet with the royals,”
+: “It’s hard for a lot of Americans to understand this. I say this because 70 percent of Americans do not have passports.”
+ "Payne said that the students got to meet with Western-educated Saudi women." =
______________________________________________________________
One Insufferable Limousine Lefty

I wonder if he's reflected -- for even a single solitary moment -- upon the status of passport ownership/usage amongst Saudi's .. particularly Saudi women (sigh, even the 'educated' women cannot obtain or use passports w/out male permission).

Posted by: Daisytoo at January 14, 2007 3:40 PM

allat, "He's getting a lotta mulla there for saying that"

Mulla or Mullah .. probably both.

Posted by: Daisytoo at January 14, 2007 8:34 PM

Statements from christians about similarities with Islam are a consequence of atittudes from the church itself. One pope kisses the Kuran. The other, theologian, says that both religions believe in the same god. Give me a break. If the leaders do not set it straight, what to expected from the followers?

Posted by: calatrava at January 14, 2007 9:29 PM

'I Could Live in Kingdom Easily'

Prove it. Double dare you.

Posted by: Daisytoo at January 15, 2007 10:28 PM