THANK GOD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Posted by: Dan at February 7, 2007 3:38 AM

I know some ex-Muslims here in Egypt. Sadly, I know more expats that have converted to Islam (many for marriage, many for belief... some for both) then I do Muslims who have left Islam. I wonder what the figure for conversion to Islam is. I suspect it is equally high... alarmingly high.

Posted by: gnegypt at February 7, 2007 3:50 AM

Off Topic but still in France.

Today Charlie Hebdo, a satirical magazine which published the Mohammed cartoons a year ago faces its first day in court. It is being sued by the Mosqée de Paris, the moderate muslims so feted by Nicolas Sarkozy as representative as an 'Islam de France'.

This case has made the headlines of all newspapers today and a left wing daily "Liberation" has republished the cartoons in support.

Whatever the results of the case, the Mosquée de Paris has lost the propaganda war. None of my lefty colleagues support the muslims and I had a great opportunity to send links to anti islamic sites

Posted by: Sebastien at February 7, 2007 4:25 AM

This is great news. The various churches in the West should step up their efforts to convert Muslims but paying close attention to traditional Muslim habits so as to make the switch more gradual to the socially conservative Muslims. But still, 15,000 does not make up for that thousands more who enter France each year AND the high birthrate. The scales need to be tipped further to the side of Reason.

Posted by: Patrick at February 7, 2007 4:40 AM

Which one of the following was involved in mass
murder , kidnapping , robbery , slavery and
child molestation...Jesus or Muhammad ?
When any sane rational human is presented with
the truth there can be only one path to follow.

Posted by: aladdinsane57 at February 7, 2007 4:55 AM

"The Faith is Europe and Europe is the Faith"

So said the great Hilaire Belloc.
It is a pity more people are not aware of this in these troubled times.
From "Europe and the Faith" incidentally.

Posted by: Odyessus at February 7, 2007 5:20 AM

I wonder if anybody has done a study about how many Muslims convert to Christianity in the United States each year. If no such study has been dne yet, I hope it is done soon.

Posted by: Christian at February 7, 2007 6:16 AM

Naseem's next.

Posted by: CGW at February 7, 2007 6:19 AM

Odyessus/

Hmmm. As one is quoting Belloc let us also be careful not to insult the French in any way for did not H.B. also pen the following:

"The Frog is justly sensitive
to epithets like these."

Sorry. Couldn't resist it.

Dominic.

Posted by: necessitasnonhabetlegem at February 7, 2007 6:21 AM

Thanks to the 9/11 terrorists efforts, the worlds recognition of Islamic violence has accelerated...THe 9/11 terrorists have brought nothing but death and destruction to Muslims....

Posted by: exsgtbrown at February 7, 2007 6:32 AM

This article has no hard facts, no evidence, no underlying research study or even attempt at one. The conversion rates to Islam are high and yet no one study can claim that it has the correct rate or number of conversions to Islam, in the US or globally. I thought this website blogged intellectual material.

Posted by: ronsted at February 7, 2007 7:06 AM

The reason why the rates are not reported is because those who minister to Muslims who come to the Christian faith must for security reasons protect these new converts.

If there is anything high on the Muslim side, it is the birthrates.

Posted by: bigcatgirl13106 at February 7, 2007 7:12 AM

I've looked at arguments that conclude the punishment for apostasy in Islam is the death penalty and others that say it is ok is change your religion while muslim.

The quran mentions nothing about killing a muslim if he changes his religion. The only texts out of historical Islamic documents that are 'for' the death penalty are these two hadiths:

- "Whoever changes his religion shall be killed." (Abu Dawud)

- "It is not lawful to kill a man who is a Muslim except for one of the three reasons: Kufr (disbelief) after accepting Islam....." (Abu Dawud).

But here are the Aarguments against the death penalty for apostates(which I find to be much more powerful and don't seem to contradict Islam):

- The former Chief Justice of Pakistan, SA Rahman, has written that there is no reference to the death penalty in any of the 20 instances of apostasy mentioned in the Qur'an.

- The quotation from Surah An-Nisa', 4:137, shown at the top of this essay, seems to imply that multiple, sequential apostasies are possible. That would not be possible if the person were executed after the first apostasy.

- "Let there be no compulsion in the religion" (2:256)

- Muslims who support the death penalty for apostasy often base their belief partly on a hadith in which he said: "Kill whoever changes his religion." But this is a weak foundation because:

1) This hadith was only transmitted from Muhammad (pbuh) by one individual. It was not confirmed by a second person. According to Islamic law, this is insufficient basis on which to impose the death penalty.

2) The hadith is so generally worded that it would require the death penalty for a Christian or Jew who converted to Islam. This is obviously not the prophet's intent. The hadith is in need of further specification, which has not been documented.

3) Many scholars interpret this passage as referring only to instances of high treason. (e.g. declaring war on Islam, Muhammad (pbuh), God, etc.)

4) There is no historical record which indicates that Muhammad (pbuh) or any of his companions ever sentenced anyone to death for apostasy.

5) A number of Islamic scholars from past centuries, Ibrahim al-Naka'I, Sufyan al-Thawri, Shams al-Din al-Sarakhsi, Abul Walid al-Baji and Ibn Taymiyyah, have all held that apostasy is a serious sin, but not one that requires the death penalty. In modern times, Mahmud Shaltut, Sheikh of al-Azhar, and Dr Mohammed Sayed Tantawi have concurred.

- Dr. Maher Hathout, author of "In Pursuit of Justice: The Jurisprudence of Human Rights in Islam," writes:

"We strongly oppose the state's use of coercion in regulating Islamic belief in such a manner, since faith is a matter of individual choice on which only God can adjudicate."

Referring to the two hadiths traditionally used to justify the death penalty, Hathout writes:

"...both of them contradict the Quran and other instances in which the Prophet did not compel anyone to embrace Islam, nor punish them if they recanted."

"In one incident, the Prophet pardoned Abdullah bin Sa'd, after he renounced Islam. Abdullah bin Sa'd was one of the people chosen by the Prophet as a scribe, to write down Qur'anic text as it was revealed to the Prophet. After spending some time with the Muslims in Madina, he recanted and returned to the religion of the Quraish. When he was brought before the Prophet, Osman bin Affan pleaded on his behalf, and the Prophet subsequently pardoned Abdullah bin Sa'd (Ibn Hisham).

"The problem with the argument for punishment for apostasy is that it cannot be applied in any Islamic state without giving rise to the potential for abuse by the state itself. Erroneously equating moral with political power in the determination of law has led to the political repression that we see in Islamic countries today. We must separate the right of God from that of man in defining freedom of religion as a legal right. The right of God refers only to the moral obligations of Muslims towards God, and is adjudicated by God. The state cannot act as a coercive moral authority, in effect representing God's Will on earth, because it does not have the right to do so. In the context of freedom of religion, the state's responsibility is to uphold and protect it as the right of all humans, as granted by God, without exercising moral judgment on the content and/or manner of exercising those religious beliefs."

Mr. Spencer, what do you think?

Posted by: WAT_123 at February 7, 2007 7:26 AM

At least some Muslims are making the right decisions...THis could be the tip of the iceberg..Islam is a failed religion, probably not a religion at all...more like political encampment...people are beginning to abandon the Islamic ship...it is sinking...(despite its claims of superiority)...Islam is made of intimidation, bluffs, demands and outright violence when all else fails...Nothing religious about it at all...

Posted by: exsgtbrown at February 7, 2007 7:32 AM

Nice to hear. Good luck to those who convert-they will need it. Here's where missionaries are needed-not in cesspoolia. Convert those in the infidel world first, then perhaps cesspoolia will follow in time.

Posted by: ISLAMSFORLOSERS at February 7, 2007 8:09 AM

The trend is known for quite a while now. But hopefully even more just turn away from religion which is even better. Last survey shown that the number of muslims is stable in France around 4-5% while catholicism is sharply declining (below 50% now).
Agnosticism will be the first spiritual power in France soon. So great!
Hope the trend will keep on that way until islam is defeated in France.

Posted by: Le Cid at February 7, 2007 8:10 AM

Sebastien--

Those French colleagues you refer to might be interested in an article, "Cahiers du Cinema," put recently at up at www.newenglishreview.org.

Posted by: Hugh at February 7, 2007 8:17 AM

“Muslims are converting to Christianity in their thousands in France but face exclusion from their families and even death threats.”

Many passages in the Bible are better understood by an individual in similar circumstances. This includes verses on marriage, children, leadership, etc. But what many of us tend to overlook are the passages regarding persecution. In the west we consider ourselves persecuted when someone insults us with name-calling (bible-thumper, Jesus-freak, etc.) This is like comparing our bosses to biblical slave owners. It loses the intended impact. The truth is most western Christians (primarily in North America) don’t relate to scriptures regarding persecution.

Those individuals living in environments hostile to Christians and extremely hostile to ex-muslims risk ostracization, physical harm, and especially death for doing what is right and deserve our highest honor. One day western Christians will need to recall the brave acts of such people in order to overcome their own temptations to succumb to dhimmitude.

We need more stories like this.

-XRDC

Posted by: XRDC at February 7, 2007 8:26 AM

Sadly, those new Christian converts have a new enemy to face besides former muslim brethren. The secular society of France which at every opportunity through the media, courts and academia mocks, attacks and marginalizes Christianity.

Posted by: adobe at February 7, 2007 8:55 AM

Adobe,

The point is simple: agnosticism is anyway better than anything else. It is humility.
Really, even if you are christian, it is much easier to argue against a muslim from an agnostic point of view. You will avoid that way all the sterile discussions and place yourself in a position where a muslim cannot argue. Believe me, as a christian you have much more to fear from a muslim than from an agnostic like me.
Do not ask too much. Let them go to agnosticism first, maybe they will turn afterward more easily to christianity if this is what you seek.

Posted by: Le Cid at February 7, 2007 9:02 AM

Mother Ecclesiastica,

What about folks like Wahlid Shobat? He not only quit being a jihadi but left Islam and became a Christian? Also there is an organization called "Voice of the Marytrs" and I get the monthly magazine about former Muslims who become Christians and who do not go back to their old ways. More often then not, they suffer persecution. That magazine talks about the Christian church that is being persecuted and not just in the Muslim countries.

Posted by: bigcatgirl13106 at February 7, 2007 9:41 AM

Here is the website for the organization comes from :

http://www.persecution.com/

Posted by: bigcatgirl13106 at February 7, 2007 9:44 AM

The same thing is happening in Italy, but is being kept carefully covered up. The Italian Church is all too aware of Muslim traditions in this respect, and has no desire to create martyrs uselessly. But think of this: out of more than 320 Italian dioceses, most quite small, only five or so used to have a regular program of reception of adult converts twenty years ago. Now it is more than 200 and growing. As a convert who was interviewed by the leading Italian newspaper, Il Corriere della Sera, said a couple of years ago, "only the Church knows how many Abdallahs are now Giovannis and how many Khadijas are now Marias." Even so, I suspect that even more Muslims will be lost not to Christianity, but to outright atheism. You can see it in such cases as Hirsi Ali or Ali sina: when a person realizes the profound immorality of Islam and comes to understand what real morality is like, the easiest reaction has to be to suspect all theistic religions. If one's experience is that the God they were supposed to pray to is nothing more than the monstrous projection of an all too terrestrial ego, atheism seems not only more credible, but even more moral, since it allows for no such projection. And while I despise European atheists, I would welcome atheists of this kind; the only thing that bothers me is the second generation - will they have children, and if they do, how will they stop the children from rediscovering Islam - with its terrible appeal to the rebellious adolescent mind - and their own heritage? But better, infinitely better an atheist than a Muslim.

Posted by: Paolo at February 7, 2007 10:04 AM

While it's great to have a multitude of secret christians - this won't do full well in light of the global jihad. Converting to Christianity and hiding the fact is akin to Jesus' parable of 'hiding the lamp under a bushel basket'.

Until these converts are open and vocal it will not harm Submission. They are in fact still submitting to Submission through intimidation. It's very good news, but we need to keep going to create conditions in the free world where these concientious people have courage in numbers. To get to that place, we need to have clear unity of intent to promote and protect these people and we need to have clear purpose in rooting out those who would continue to harm or intimidate the converts.

We need to kick the mad mullahs and hate mongers out -- on first warning. And more.

Nothing succeeds like success too. Millions more would be apt to leave Submission if they weren't so afraid of the mullah mafia and the weekend jihadis out there.

Destroy the ability of groups and nations to mount sustained assaults against us. Destroy the House of Cards financially, rationally, philosophically, polemically, politically, socially, legally and sometimes militarily (should be a small percentage of total anti-jihad activity).

Posted by: A_Plague_on_Both_Houses at February 7, 2007 10:19 AM

"I wonder if anybody has done a study about how many Muslims convert to Christianity in the United States each year. If no such study has been done yet, I hope it is done soon."

I don't know of any studies but I've read that nearly half of all Iranians living in the United States have become Christians. My own observations give credence to this. Most large cities in the US have at least one Farsi congregation. In the Washington DC area there are at least 5 Iranian churches of various denominations. In my own church we have Iranian converts who attend Divine Liturgy faithfully.

Posted by: Provoslavni at February 7, 2007 10:20 AM

Iranians converting? I know one... he takes communion on Sundays and sells doughnuts for Birthright in the Catholic church.

Posted by: A_Plague_on_Both_Houses at February 7, 2007 10:40 AM

Praise God!! Finally some good news.

The nations of the West must do everything in their power to protect these converts. Although I don't have much confidence in the self-loathing, multi-cultural Western governments ability to take a stand for Christians and against the rage of Islam.

Posted by: genevieve at February 7, 2007 10:47 AM

And this is why the failure to get rid of the extremists is criminal. But having said all that perhaps by doing is slowly does not antagonise these false Muslims. There are some issue however, some are still tainted by the arrogance stuffed into their heads. I have seen it first hand in France in that almost every secular Arab I deal with in France has a bloody great chip on their shoulder, sometimes due to a need to prove themselves but in other cases more than that.

Posted by: Daffersd at February 7, 2007 10:54 AM

Ronsted, as I recall the "6 million leaving Islam each year" figure comes from a report by Saudi clerics who saw this as a serious crisis within Islam. I have seen the article and can provide a link if I weren't so lazy this morning.

Posted by: Nick Danger at February 7, 2007 11:05 AM

Actually, it was an interview on Al Jazeerah with a Sheikh Ahmed Katani translated at:
http://www.formermuslims.com (see the forum section)

Here's the essence: Sheikh Katani--
"As for Christianization, no one has the right to take Muslims out of their religion, and you asked for references and the references are too numerous.

Islam used to represent, as you previously mentioned, Africa’s main religion and there were 30 African languages that used to be written in Arabic script. The number of Muslims in Africa has diminished to 316 million, half of whom are Arabs in North Africa. So in the section of Africa that we are talking about, the non Arab section, the number of Muslims does not exceed 150 million people. When we realize that the entire population of Africa is one billion people, we see that the number of Muslims has diminished greatly from what it was in the beginning of the last century. On the other hand, the number of Catholics has increased from one million in 1902 to 329 million 882 thousand (329,882,000). Let us round off that number to 330 million in the year 2000.

As to how that happened, well there are now 1.5 million churches whose congregations account for 46 million people. In every hour, 667 Muslims convert to Christianity. Everyday, 16,000 Muslims convert to Christianity. Ever year, 6 million Muslims convert to Christianity. These numbers are very large indeed …..

Posted by: Nick Danger at February 7, 2007 11:16 AM

Really, even if you are christian, it is much easier to argue against a muslim from an agnostic point of view.

I hear that argument quite a bit; however you can't argue something with nothing. The Christian theological argument against islam is ultimately the only way to defeat islam. My original point regarding French (and all Western Europe) secular anti-Christian culture still stands.

Posted by: adobe at February 7, 2007 11:40 AM

There's no way to validate these figures -- particularly since so many would be in hiding. It's absurd to put any figure on it, and not much different than the opposing chest-puffing of Muslims who inflate their figures.

Posted by: remote_control at February 7, 2007 12:17 PM

Morgaan:

First, thank you for suggesting this article to Robert. Please help keep us informed!

My son is currently stationed in Iraq and was wounded by an IED last year. Fortunately, the wound was only minor. Since then, and probably out of worry, I became curious about the jihadists my son and our military is up against. Eventually, I found Robert's web site and have been a reader ever since.

Most of the time I just skim the comments looking for additional insights and other important information. Unfortunately, many people post comments here with nothing more than trivial play in mind.

Yesterday, I saw your comments about Hisri Ali and saw more of your comments today. They were like a breath of fresh air! Thank you for bringing your insights to this web site and please PLEASE continue to give us your commentary!

Like you, I am also posting this comment under my real name. I think more of us should be willing to stand up and be counted.

Respectfully,

Elizabeth Garrison

Posted by: Elizabeth Garrison at February 7, 2007 12:27 PM

And this is not to mention the islamics that are leaving, but not joining any religion, Why would you want to leave a religion and go straight into another? Wouldn't you want to leave it all behind? Why jump right back in to a belief system?

You can imagine that the majority are men, and in particular, those that have the lusxury of not being married. This is a big advantage in mobility.

Posted by: allat at February 7, 2007 12:31 PM

"It is estimated that every year in the world some six million Muslims convert to Christianity".

I'm astounded that the Islamaniacs aren't calling this the real Holocaust, given how they shriek and whine incessantly.

Posted by: ISLAMSFORLOSERS at February 7, 2007 12:36 PM

Go to www.answering-islam.org to read stories by ex-Muslim converts to Christianity. Most of the stories are wonderful.

That old hymn comes to mind

This is my story, this is my song...

Posted by: wrathofasma at February 7, 2007 12:37 PM

I am glad to see someone is going to use the Christian faith in France, it hasn't been used in 60 years.

Sit back and wait......in about 24 months alot of these 'converted' muslims will be on the boards and directors positions in the churches, only then will you see these 'converts' start saying they don't need this building lets give it to the muslims. One church building at a time.

I am sorry but I don't believe this to be real conversions. The churches in France have done nothing differant, they are still sleeping. I would love to be proven wrong.

Are we seeing conversions? Or Trojan Horses?

Posted by: alaskan1000 at February 7, 2007 1:00 PM

And some more good news coming from France -

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/6339591.stm

Posted by: GreekFrenchInfidel at February 7, 2007 1:42 PM

A_Plague_on_Both_Houses wrote:

“While it's great to have a multitude of secret christians - this won't do full well in light of the global jihad. Converting to Christianity and hiding the fact is akin to Jesus' parable of 'hiding the lamp under a bushel basket'.”

Even in spiritual warfare, a soldier does well to keep oneself alive without denying the faith. Each convert to Christianity or any religion other than Islam means one less Islamist to wonder about. The rest of the convert’s family is no doubt well aware of the conversion and over time may be won over once they are forced to choose between a loving family member and those using their religion to justify killing the convert.

“Until these converts are open and vocal it will not harm Submission. They are in fact still submitting to Submission through intimidation.”

Giving up all familial and societal rights to escape Islam is “submission” but to a greater God. It certainly does no good to turn yourself in to the executioners before your time. The goal of converting is not to “harm submission” but to save one’s soul.

Part of the problem with Europes decline is the lack of faith. Robert wrote a brief article in 2005 entitled “Will Benedict XVI Save Europe?”
http://www.humanevents.com/article.php?print=yes&id=7218

Here are a few excerpts regarding statements made by the new Pope:

For one thing, the new pope seems to be aware of the grave danger Europeans face: he has called upon Europe to recover its Christian roots "if it truly wants to survive."

"Europe," he has explained, "was founded not on a geography, but on a common faith..."

"…a secular and relativist Europe has so far proved powerless against the Islamization of Europe."

-XRDC

Posted by: XRDC at February 7, 2007 2:06 PM

A state-sanctioned "underground railroad" for dissidents leaving the ummah could be potentially be a valuable weapon against islam. It would have to be actively policed and enforced for "war is deception"/jihadi/dhimmi activity though.

Posted by: squire at February 7, 2007 2:39 PM

"Naseem's next.

Posted by: CGW"

impossible, christians have usually a full brain

Posted by: StillFedUp at February 7, 2007 3:11 PM

Paolo, it was good to read your thoughtful comments .. glad too that this wholesome phenomena is occurring in Italy - a place I love! Among other things, you said this:

"If one's experience is that the God they were supposed to pray to is nothing more than the monstrous projection of an all too terrestrial ego, atheism seems not only more credible, but even more moral, since it allows for no such projection."

Now, that's well put. I think what could ameliorate this problem would lie in the practice of one's (hopefully sane) religion . It's within the conscious decision to practice one's religious ritual that we get .. for that time .. to humbly withdraw our egotistical projections as a matter of practical faith. With religious practices, we are given the opportunity to sacrifice our ego identification to something significantly wiser and hopefully, something loving and kind.

I think your concern about the future possibility of the lure of Islam for the children of converts to atheism is valid. There is something qualitatively different in the experience of rejection of one's sick religion and in the embrace of a healthy religion. The legacy of what we reject (in a fearful and reactionary manner) becomes our children's inheritance. Saying that, I too believe that atheism is a better choice of religion than Islam. And I also believe that the brave embrace (and practice) of another religion (well, maybe not Snake Handling!) ... would be even more beneficial.

Posted by: Daisytoo at February 7, 2007 3:25 PM

"Unfortunately, many people post comments here with nothing more than trivial play in mind"

Oh, excuse us, OH GREAT ONE, (bowing) that we do not contribute monograms and dissertations and master thesises here. Excuse us our light hearted moments, in which we forget that life should be ALL work and no play.

Posted by: allat at February 7, 2007 3:32 PM

Paolo & Daisytoo-

In regards to atheist converts to Islam:

http://www.debbieschlussel.com/archives/2007/02/when_atheists_a.html

-XRDC

Posted by: XRDC at February 7, 2007 3:59 PM

It is more than just the bare numbers which are good news. It is the quality of the people concerned.

The nature of Islam ensures that adults who go into it are only the weak-minded and the cowardly, and that those who go out of it are the smart and the brave.

This trend will only continue to accelerate as knowledge of the true nature of Islam becomes more widespread.

Posted by: Brett_McS at February 7, 2007 5:05 PM

Well this mean nothing at all. In WND afew month ago than Christian Far Right wing bigot claim to convert 1 million muslim to Christian in Pakistan in one night. It was false on the cards he handout asking for more infro on Christian in the hard to read fine print it say you convert to Christian the old Christian trickly to convert people when the sword doesnot worked. Islam never use the sword or trickery to convert people. Many Roman Cathor convert to Islam as the Church cannot explaim the false idear of the Trinity. I talked to afew Cathor in which one was than Christian Arab who convert to Islam.

Posted by: DefenderofIslam at February 7, 2007 6:02 PM

XRDC,

Thanks for the good link/good article ... my goodness but there are a lot of nutballs posting .. apparently threatened by Debbie Shussel's mind.

& DefenderofIslam,

The most obvious enemies of Islam are the teachings in the Koran. Why not stop defending .. and instead protect Muslims and start a literacy program. The illiteracy rates amongst Muslims are truly disgraceful. You are obviously equipped for this mission. You are writing in English, apparently a second language, you are passionate (as you have every right to be about fellow Muslims) .. now do something useful with your mind and your passion .. teach your fellow Muslims to read. Next translate the Koran into as many languages as Muslims speak .. and let Muslims decide for themselves. Stop defending Islam .. and start protecting Muslims: Teach Muslims to read.

Posted by: Daisytoo at February 7, 2007 6:46 PM

Defenderofislam,
Come back and comment when your English has improved, your IQ has risen above room temperature and you've learned to respect elementary facts.

Posted by: wallyUK at February 7, 2007 6:48 PM

Apparently the only rise in Islam is birth rate but conversion I bet a lot pull out sooner than convert in this world.

If Islamic countries were liberal you know Islamic law would not have a foothold on it's forced people and the ones at the top of Islam will slowly feel scared of to the fact they have no control over the masses.

Christianity is on the rise in China and Africa but Islam is on the rise for the sake of being forced on in Africa, see different approaches growing in numbers.

Posted by: jesusisthelamb at February 7, 2007 9:06 PM

Yeah that's 233 years to convert all Muslims to Christianity, if we ignore an acceleration as more convert, and if the ones left dont have kids, and if no numbskulls convert TO Islam from Christianity.

Definitely the slow road but great.

Posted by: payingattention at February 7, 2007 9:07 PM

Many Roman Cathor convert to Islam as the Church cannot explaim the false idear of the Trinity. I talked to afew Cathor in which one was than Christian Arab who convert to Islam.

Posted by: DefenderofIslam at February 7, 2007 06:02 PM

------------------------------------------------
By the way the Romans Catholic in the Vatican area are losing their track of Christianity and always have done. They are starting to sound more like atheists saying Jesus did not have a virgin birth. This is a key role in Prophecy as Yes there will be a false Prophet and many claim it to be from a future POPE. So no surprise there if Catholics are led astray.

Also how can you have one God in one place and yet be omnipresent? Is Allah in heaven or is he both on earth and heaven? If he knows everything Allah that is then he must have a Spirit that tells him the facts a spirit particle that is in everything.

Yet what the Trinity is that God can be in different places at once and split his spirit cell at will and spilt that too. Its like the mouse of your computer connected to the hardrive connected to your monitor he is like a fig tree many branches but one.

How can a single humanoid God if one is a single God be in control there is not enough Angels to do that and never could be? You need a God that has elements of an order. The father is the processor the son is the individual the spirit is his expanse.
It's still one God like water you can separate but put it back in the sea but its all water if you did the same again. I think lack of complexity and simplicity makes one seem acceptable because its simple to see something as one self.

Posted by: jesusisthelamb at February 7, 2007 9:26 PM

REWRITE:
I think simplicity makes some things seem acceptable because it's simple to see something as one number as a person sees their individuality because that is easily understood.
Time and space is one but made up of dimentions.

Posted by: jesusisthelamb at February 7, 2007 9:34 PM

Muslims converting to Christianity by the thousands in France
Oh no! Now we have something to worry about!
/left wing idiots

Posted by: Carolyn2 at February 7, 2007 9:58 PM

squire: "A state-sanctioned "underground railroad" for dissidents leaving the ummah could be potentially be a valuable weapon against islam. It would have to be actively policed and enforced for "war is deception"/jihadi/dhimmi activity though."

The prototype for such a thing would be found in underground networks that aid abused women. (I saw this in a Jennifer Lopez movie once - the movie was called "Enough". Of course the best part of the movie was when she learned self-defense and actually beat the guy to death, all the while making it look like self-defense, which indeed it was).

Posted by: Caroline at February 7, 2007 11:15 PM

There are challenges facing new Christian converts from Islam in Europe. These Christians need support to perserve in their new faith.

Read:

http://www.aina.org/news/20061018183253.htm

Posted by: Johnathan at February 7, 2007 11:59 PM

Thank you Elizabeth Garrison. Your comment made me read Morgaan's post attentively. It was very incisive.

Posted by: Crows&Cows at February 8, 2007 2:04 AM

Jesuschrististhelamb: you are a fool. The Catholic Chuch holds the Virgin Birth as dogma, that is, unchangeable and unchallengeable doctrine. No Pope would ever think of doing anything to reduce it. But then, stone-age Jack T.Chick-reading Prods like you will believe anything. If you want to see disbelief and compromise, go look at the historical Protestant churches.

Posted by: Paolo at February 8, 2007 5:05 AM

Naseem's next.

Posted by: CGW at February 7, 2007 06:19 AM

I hope not. Her rambling, sneering, logic-free posts serve a greater purpose than any endorsement of another faith would.

Posted by: waterdragon52 at February 8, 2007 8:48 AM

WAT_123 looks to be providing a valuable service by sketching out Islamic arguments against the killing of Muslims who change faith. In other words, WAT is providing ammunition to use against the propaganda of jihadist clerics.

I am not an Islamic scholar myself, and cannot evaluate the claims. I wish somebody would, though.

Note: I don't think WAT is saying that jihadist claims are not being made, and that we can all go back to sleep.

Posted by: refugee at February 8, 2007 12:22 PM

Paolo..

Jesuschrististhelamb...'s comment (virgin birth)is not mainstream in the Vatican but it is being heard, debated and written about. Do not thing that the Vatican is above human error or manipulation.

The Vatican has the highest crime rate per capita of any place in Europe. Ask yourself who lives there and who is commiting the crimes?

There are more muslims imans and islamic ambassadors that live in the Vatican then there are diplomats from foreign countries' delegations.

The Vatican has two committess of priests that have been meeting with islamic imans to negotiate common areas of their religions to do away with and unite the two religions. World leaders support this unification as a reformation. Who gave them the right to negotiate away parts of the Bible? This is one of the complaints of our alcholic Mel Gibson and his strange Catholic religion. He claims they are 'pre 1967' Catholics, and that the Vatican is wrong. Why...because they changed abunch of the rules regarding the religion and implemented them in 1967 and 1968. Again, who gave them this right. It is kind of like islam having the Hadith, a series of books they can keep adding rules to when ever it is convient to move the religion along the lines of politics and money.

I am not trying to draw an opposition from you or towards you, but there are many interesting things that are occuring within the walls of the vatican.

Posted by: alaskan1000 at February 8, 2007 1:40 PM

Alaskan,

The crime rate in the Vatican is overwhelmingly things like pickpockets and purse snatchers. None of these are committed by any of the 491 residents of the Vatican. Hundreds of thousands of tourists pass through St. Peter's square every year and petty criminals go where the crowds are. These statistics should rightfully be compared to any other large park or stadium in Italy during a concert or sports event. It has nothing to do with the Catholic Church or the status of the Holy See.

As for your allegation about committes of priest trying to merge with Islam, this is patently rediculous. No priest, bishop or even pope has the power to change a dogma. What the Church negotiates with Muslims, Jews and others, in order to find commonality is social and political issues, such as trying to gain support in pro-life activities. Theology can be discussed but dogma and scripture are beyond negotiation.

Posted by: Provoslavni at February 8, 2007 2:47 PM

Incidently, During the weeks in April 2005 when Pope John Paul II was dying. A total of 6 million pilgrims arrived for vigils in St. Peter's Square, and not a single incident of pickpocketing was reported. Tell me anywhere on earth this could happen.

Posted by: Provoslavni at February 8, 2007 2:51 PM

"Incidently, During the weeks in April 2005 when Pope John Paul II was dying. A total of 6 million pilgrims arrived for vigils in St. Peter's Square, and not a single incident of pickpocketing was reported. Tell me anywhere on earth this could happen."
Posted by: Provoslavni

I don't think you will find many pickpocketing incidents here

http://www.solbakken-camping.dk/soluk/mainuk.htm

Posted by: hierophant at February 8, 2007 4:14 PM

hierophant...LOL!!!!!!

Posted by: leonthepigfarmer at February 8, 2007 11:32 PM

hierophant,
Thanks for the laugh. You're right!

Posted by: Provoslavni at February 8, 2007 11:48 PM

I have long been prayerful and hopeful that Muslim immigration may end up doing nothing but giving Christian America a more swarthy complexion (South Asian, Malay, Hui, and Arab genes--plus the decline of racism targeted at African-Americans and Hispanics).

Provoslavni: I don't know about half of all Iranian immigrants in the USA converting to Christianity; but I know about the mushrooming of churche in the "Little Teherans" of America, and that Iranian-American Protestants of Islamic background are poised to overtake Iranian-American Christians of Assyrian or Armenian descent if they haven't already done so.

There has also been a "loss" of Muslim of older Muslim immigrations (Polish Tatars, some Syrian Muslims, for instance)into the American Christian population. My guess is that the time is not far off when the number of conversions from Islam in the West will be so large that it will be noticed; and the most that the jihadis will be able to do is splutter with helpless rage. After all, the Baptists already have a theologian named Mehmet (Caner).

Posted by: Kepha at February 9, 2007 7:10 AM

Kepha,
Thanks for the info. Another thing I've noticed is that many of those Iranian-Americans who still call themselves "Muslim" are quick to add things such as "but I don't believe in all the Khomeini crap" meaning that they have already left Islam ideologically. Of my US born Iranian students, very few even have Muslim names. Sean seems to be the most common for boys.

Also, the many, many intermarriages between Iranians and American Christians that I personally know about, it has been the Iranian partner who converts to Christianity, not the other way around. This is a good thing.

God moves in mysterious ways and it will be interesting if Iran as the country that led the jihadist revival becomes the country that leads the way out of Islam. Let's pray this is so.

Posted by: Provoslavni at February 9, 2007 10:00 AM

jesusisthelamb:

"The father is the processor the son is the individual the spirit is his expanse.
It's still one God like water you can separate but put it back in the sea but its all water if you did the same again. I think lack of complexity and simplicity makes one seem acceptable because its simple to see something as one self".

BRILLIANT ! You are right!! Also why are people preoccupied with irrelevant questions and doubts about His Birth, Marriage whatever. It is His Message alone that is of vital importance. He so clearly States:
"KNOW (that I Am God)" and not think.

Posted by: Crows&Cows at February 10, 2007 2:03 AM

allat:

"Oh, excuse us, OH GREAT ONE, (bowing) that we do not contribute monograms and dissertations and master thesises here. Excuse us our light hearted moments, in which we forget that life should be ALL work and no play".

Lol..That was a good one!

Posted by: Crows&Cows at February 10, 2007 2:14 AM