Robert,

According to the translations of Pickthall, Yusuf Ali, Shakir and Dawood, 4.34 is explicit in allowing husbands to beat their wives. Some newer translations have substituted the words "chastize her" for "beat her."

Is this just a sop towards modern sensibilities or is there a genuine disagreement on the translation? I've already had two on-line debates in which my Muslim interlocutors used these new translations to deny that 4.34 allows wife-beating. My understanding is that you have a working knowledge of Arabic. Could you please help clear this up?

Posted by: Cornelius at March 21, 2007 5:56 PM

Believe it or not I think this decision is healthy. Its the closest thing to putting the Koran on trial to date, and the outrage over the decision might finally cause the left to wake up to the problem.

Posted by: Jimmy the Dhimmi at March 21, 2007 6:01 PM

Move along, folks. Nothing to see here. Just some rhinoceri are running amok.

Posted by: Ynkedoodl2 at March 21, 2007 6:07 PM

since this judge is officiating in Germany and is a functionary of the German state, so one would think, one would imagine that she [yes, a female judge] is supposed to implement German law, not the Qur'an.

I know of course that some women are catty towards other women, but this is bizarre. What does German law say on the matter? If German law allows wife-beating, that's one thing, wrong to be sure. But how can the German state accept implementation of Qur'anic law, or the citation of Qur'anic law by one of its own judges?
BIZARRE.

Posted by: Eliyahu at March 21, 2007 6:16 PM

I like how the PC Europeans bring their level lower down to poor misread Muslims and the innocent Koran.

On the other hand the wife can decide to turn democratic and use Christian principles to get rid of her husband there must be some double standard no? I have an idea ban the Koran from courts no excuses then the only excuses used is for mental irrational behaviour caused by reading from the most violent open loop holed religion of intolerance and persecution in religion that the earth has right now apart from Satanism.

Posted by: jesusisthelamb at March 21, 2007 6:19 PM

When I heard about this, it seemed unbelievable.

However, upon reflection, I came to the same conclusion as JtheD above: this 'decision' was designed to cause a furor and perhaps bring things to a head.

Maybe that is wishful thinking, but one can hope.

Ethelred

Posted by: Ethelred at March 21, 2007 6:35 PM

"The right to castigate means for me: the husband can beat his wife," Becker-Rojczyk said, interpreting the judge's verdict.

I wonder if in the judge's extensive reading of the Koran she has come upon the passages that say that a woman's testimony is one half of a man's. Just wait 'til she finds out what the Koran has in store for her. Will she admit her inferior status and step down as a judge to become, perhaps, somebody's concubine?

Posted by: Isabellathecrusader at March 21, 2007 6:43 PM

So the next time a German Muslim decides to behead an infidel, he can merely point out the proper passage in the Qur'an to this particular judge, the judge will say "Oh okay, it's a Muslim thing," and that'll be that? Doesn't seem too unrealistic at this point. If it'll work for one passage, it'll work for another. This is setting a very, very dangerous precedent.

Posted by: staff_of_magius at March 21, 2007 6:58 PM

Good call of that judge. She's conveying a crystal clear signal to all women who are thinking of marrying a muslim.

BTW, if you want to know how a French muslim interprets the term 'castigating': http://www.smh.com.au/news/world/man-gets-30-years-for-ripping-out-wifes-eyes/2007/03/21/1174153104023.html

Posted by: Kim Hartveld at March 21, 2007 7:20 PM

So we have a German Judge that is applying a form of sharia law in a country that is supposed to follow German Law. So the judge is now instituting a form of justice based on where these people came from and the type of behaviors that were acceptable in that region.

If we think this way then could we see an American judge apply a different standard of a judicating a case to; say someone from Saudia Arabia? Quite frankly this is nuts on the shear face of it. Did this women ask that this case be judged on the merits of how people where treated from a different country; I don't think so.

Posted by: Mackie at March 21, 2007 8:39 PM

Cornelius:

There is no doubt among any honest person about the meaning of the verse. There is an elaboration of traditions about how Muhammad counseled against it, and/or said that a wife should not be beaten with anything larger than a toothstick, but these are ultimately counsels of despair or exercises in hoodwinking non-Muslims -- the ahadith cited contradict the Qur'an, and thus do not stand among the orthodox Muslims.

Cordially
Robert Spencer

Posted by: jihadwatch at March 21, 2007 8:47 PM

I suspect that the judge had to decide this way because of some criteria in the paragraph 1565 (of German federal law), presumably forcing judges to consider cultural background when deciding on 'hardship'.

If this is the case, she has made a very, very important point that should lead to a change in that law: outdated multicultural values have no place in modern law!

Posted by: Lili at March 21, 2007 8:50 PM

Lawyers are any nation's Achilles Heel. Judges are nothing more than lawyers in robes who no longer have to work for a living. I wonder if this judge consulted the German Constitution before he abrogated it in favor of Allah.

Just wait until when there are Moslem lawyers running all over America. 6 - 8 yrs is all that will take, from what I hear.

Posted by: Alarmed Pig Farmer at March 21, 2007 10:38 PM

The scripture (the Qur'an) teaches muslims how to deal with a stubborn wife. First admonish your stubborn wife. If this fails, the Qur'an instructs to abstain from sharing the bed with her. If this fails, the last resort is to beat her instead of divorcing her. It is a beating which leaves no mark on the skin or break a born. It is also adviced you do it out of your children's sight.

Islam seeks to protect society from lewd immorality as is the prevailing norm in western societies. Failing to follow the teachings of the Qur'an leads to breakdown of FAMILY.

Posted by: Abu Jehad at March 21, 2007 10:44 PM

From now on bear in mind that the beating has condition on it....No hitting the face or sensitive areas, No leaving mark on skin (obviously this means no hitting hard), No breaking born, No to be done infront of others as this will humiliate your spouse.

This is the truth from our Lord, the most high, who created and designed the humman being.

Posted by: Abu Jehad at March 21, 2007 10:51 PM

Abu Jehad:
A follower of a "religion" that countenances and whose adherents still practice slavery (see thread below this one) should not be lecturing anybody about morality.

Posted by: materialguy at March 21, 2007 10:53 PM

Islam seeks to protect society from lewd immorality--Abu Jehad

Pedophilia certainly seems acceptable though. Oops?

Posted by: staff_of_magius at March 21, 2007 10:59 PM

By not adjudicating the case, the judge dodged a bullet ... perhaps literally.

Posted by: LoneRanger at March 21, 2007 11:12 PM

"The scripture (the Qur'an) teaches...the Qur'an instructs...is also adviced[sic]...Islam seeks to...Failing to follow...From now on bear in mind...This is the truth...."

Blah, blah, blah

What room do you think you wandered into, Camel Wipe? We know this verse already and many more, probably better than you. Who do you think your are kidding you pathetic misogynist apologist?

Posted by: Concerned Citizen at March 21, 2007 11:54 PM

NO, THE HUSBAND CAN'T BEAT HIS WIFE.

It doesn't matter what the Qur'an instructs about what a husband can do to his wife.

It doesn't matter if the couple is from Morocco or the planet Mars.

German law should never permit domestic violence because it hurts women and causes emotional, physical, and spiritual damage.

Domestic violence causes problems for any society and must be fought against in any court of law.

Posted by: Johnathan at March 22, 2007 12:24 AM

My initial reaction was that this decision confirmed that there are no right or wrong values in this world any more but on reflection, as a poster above suggested, it could put the Koran on trial. Bring it on I say!

Posted by: cathkins at March 22, 2007 1:49 AM

The request of the lawyer for the removal of the woman judge involved a claim of Befangenheit (bias) on the part of the judge. The name of the judge is not named anywhere I have looked. Some are claiming that she is herself an immigrant from Morocco. That raises some serious questions.

Posted by: cheesehead at March 22, 2007 1:51 AM

Abu Jehed wrote: " beating has condition on it. This is the truth from our Lord, the most high, who created and designed the humman being."

This is NOT the truth from my Lord, the most high, who created and designed the human being.

We have a conflict with our spiritual perspectives.

I reject Muhammad as Allah's messenger and don't believe that the angel Gabriel revealed a thing to him.

I firmly believe that the Qur'an doesn't have the power to save humankind from the darkness of sin and isn't an inspired spiritual book.

Islamic societies are no beacon of light for the world and don't have better moral standards than western societies.

Polygamy, mercy killings, slavery, domestic violence justified from the Qur'an, beheadings, killing apostates, marrying teenage girls, jizya (poll tax on non-Muslims), religious police clubbing Muslim citizens to prayer on the streets, and random acts of violence justified in the name of jihad.........are LOW moral standards.
Yet they exist in the Islamic societies of the east.

Lewd conduct in western socieites pales in comparison to the dark evil vices that are deeply ingrained in the Islamic socieites of the east.

Stop complaining about the lewdness of western society and apply your spiritual zeal towards the better fight of challenging the oppressive grip that Islam brings to our world.

Posted by: Johnathan at March 22, 2007 2:01 AM

Abu Jehad stated: "From now on bear in mind that the beating has condition on it....No hitting the face or sensitive areas, No leaving mark on skin (obviously this means no hitting hard), No breaking born, No to be done infront of others as this will humiliate your spouse.

This is the truth from our Lord, the most high, who created and designed the humman being."

Sir, there are no such "conditions" on beating women in America, especially where I'm from, the Deep South. Women are not to be beaten nor hurt in any fashion for "misbehaving." A good way to get a few extra orifices where I'm from is to publicly admit to beating a woman. This is not Arabia, and we are not Muslims. We do not put "conditions" on beating "our" women, because they are their own people, and not chattel to be treated as you wish.

Posted by: Jonas Salk at March 22, 2007 4:12 AM

"The scripture (the Qur'an) teaches muslims how to deal with a stubborn wife"

Does it have anything to say, I wonder, about how to deal with a stubborn husband?

(From a non-female non-feminist, in case you're wondering)

Posted by: JFGR at March 22, 2007 5:13 AM

The judge has already been removed from the case because of bias (Befangenheit). Her name is Elisabeth von Alvesleben, so I think she is not a convert and definitely wasn't born in Morocco. A huge public debate of the cran is raging through Germany right now. In all comment sections of online newspapers you can see how fed up Germans are with the creeping demands of islamisation. No taboo anymore on the M- and I- Words.
Most important thing: All media start quoting members of the "Zentralrat der Ex-Muslime" (Council of Ex-Muslims) which was founded in Germany earlier this year. It started with 40 members, now membership has jumped to over 400.

A new anti-islam party will be founded this year by terrorism-expert Udo Ulfkotte (www.akte-islam.de, page in German).

Believe me: the sane European public is wide awake as far as the dangers of Islam are concerned. More and more former lefties wake up too.If only politicians and media would listen. But I keep the faith: They will be forced to listen, as they can't keep the lid on the problem anymore.

Posted by: buraq_is_dead at March 22, 2007 5:40 AM

No problem. I've got a new religion, it's called "do-it-my-way".

And one of the basic tenets of my new religion is to find suckers like that "judge", swipe their wallets and beat them dowm.

And there's nothing you can do about it. It's part of my religion.

I call it "the right to castigate". And I like it a lot.

You see my new god, called what-I_damn-well-please famously said in no uncertain terms that such persons as this judge fall into a special category called pleading-for-a-beating, and it's my religious duty to administer corrective measures.

It's also written in my holy book, called "how-I-happen-to-feel-at-the-moment" that when I'm done with him I have the right to his wife and daughters, as a reward for my efforts.

It's all in the name of religion you know, so that makes it OK.

Time to get pious...

,)

If the man renounces his rights in such a blatant and obvious way, what claim could he make against me if I decide to indulge myself at his expense?

Posted by: joeblough at March 22, 2007 5:59 AM

@buraq_is_dead
I agree with you. In Germany people are waking up. They don't believe any longer that muslim immigration is a bliss, they don't believe in integration; they are angry about newspaper articles that hide the cultural background of criminals.
The disgraceful sentence was the starting point of a broad discussion about the islamisation of Germany. Multicultural lefties are in the defense.
Things are changing.

Posted by: lebowski at March 22, 2007 6:03 AM

Europe is reaping what it sowed. Hopefully this will lead to an honest debate if Islam can co-exist in the West.

Posted by: Elric66 at March 22, 2007 7:00 AM

@lebowski

One of the reasons for Germans waking up might also be that almost every one has had some displeasant encounters with moslems. Germay is about half the size of Texas and has a population of 82,2 Million (Texas 20,8; US 301,43). An estimated 3,5 percent of them are muslims. But they seem to be everywhere. Right now, there are about 3000 turkish mosques; add some more from Ahmadiya (they are running a 100-mosque-program), from Wahhabis and other islamic sects.For comparison: Lidl, a very popular grocery-chain found everywhre has 2500 stores nationwide (muslims love to shop there). Niquabs and Hijabs are worn more and more prominently. Now wonder people here start feeling higly alienated in their own country.
Combine this with cartoon riots, honour killings in this country, wife beatings, disgusting attitudes of young muslim males and you get a situation, whre the anger of the natives ist coming to a boil. The often quoted backlash is building. News are just in, that somebody sett a bulldozer ablaze on a contruction site of an unwanted Berlin mosque in Heimersdorf.
Moslems better do something quick to extinguish the flames they have been fanning or peaceful German citizens will get nasty.

Posted by: buraq_is_dead at March 22, 2007 7:04 AM

This is not new, there have been many cases like this:

I vividly remember a case from way back in 1967 when a young Turk raped (or seduced) the daughter of another turkish 'Guestworker'- The father of the girl went to the guys place and stabbed him to death. This was clearly premeditated murder, but the judge waqy back then and there already applied another standard, since these people came from another 'Kulturkreis'- (cultural background) the guy got away with 2 years.

A German (or non-muslim) would have got 12 to 15 years for the same thing.
What amazes is that female judges fall even more for this 'cultural' thing.
Left-leaning, 'liberal' types show more 'understanding' for this, which they don't have for their own people. This judge may be in need of Nietsches Peitsche (whip) herself. Some people like it and don't think its a bad thing at all....

(hope you appreciate my sarcasm, but in Germany everything goes these days...)

Posted by: sheik yer'mami at March 22, 2007 7:19 AM

sheik yer'mami, I dont think it is any different in any country where Muslims have invaded, and that is what it is, they are invading us all...
They have effectively got their Sharia law.
I am waiting for the Chinese, Japanese, Buddhists, Hindi's etc to all want their own laws in our countries, it will make it even a bigger mess, and they could not be denied their law as these fools of judges have set the bench mark.
But no, they wont, as unlike Muslims they have come here for a better life and want to just live...they will live according to the laws of the land that they have adopted...

Posted by: Gaye at March 22, 2007 7:53 AM

@ Gaye

Its their Islamic duty to invade dar-al-Haub and Islamictize it. But its our duty to stop it but so far the West is doing a poor job at it.

Posted by: Elric66 at March 22, 2007 8:05 AM

Technically she might have ruled according to german law.
German law requires for an immidiate divorce without a year waiting unusual hardship.
Hardship is certainly fulfilled by beating and life-threatening.
But unusual means, that it has to be unusal compared to what was normal in marriage. So if beating and life-threatening was anyway normal from the beginning in this marriage and was expected to be so, it would not allow for unusual hardship, as it is not unsual.
Now if the judge believed, that muslim husbands regularly beat and threaten their wives, beating and threatening is normal for marriage with muslims and therefore not unsual hardship and therefore no immidiate divorce. So effectively this judgement is correct, if most muslims beat their wives

(But as beating and threatening is a valid reason for divorce whether its unusual or not, the divorce itself will happen and the husband was forbidden to approach the man or her house.)

So this is actually not dhimmitude, but a huge stupidity of german law, which is actually helpful for antidhimmitude, as it shows that a judge is convinced, that beating and deaththreats are standard for muslim marriage.

Posted by: carn at March 22, 2007 8:41 AM

"The scripture (the Qur'an) teaches muslims how to deal with a stubborn wife. First admonish your stubborn wife. If this fails, the Qur'an instructs to abstain from sharing the bed with her. If this fails, the last resort is to beat her ...

From now on bear in mind that the beating has condition on it....No hitting the face or sensitive areas, No leaving mark on skin (obviously this means no hitting hard), No breaking born, No to be done infront of others as this will humiliate your spouse.

This is the truth from our Lord, the most high, who created and designed the humman being."

Posted by: Abu Jehad at March 21, 2007 10:51 PM

***

Dear Abu,

Yours is one of the most illuminating posts I have read on this subject. Indeed, your words are so profound and so eloquent that they should be printed and posted on the walls of every female dorm room in the Western world.

Thank you for your remarkable contribution to this discussion.

Posted by: CJ at March 22, 2007 9:09 AM

Update from http://www.politicallyincorrect.de/2007/03/richterin_von_alvensleben_wege_1.html

The judge was not Elizabeth von Alvesleben, they were given bad information and have apologised to her.

Posted by: Silvester at March 22, 2007 9:15 AM

@Sivester

Thanks!!!

Posted by: buraq_is_dead at March 22, 2007 9:55 AM

I like how Muhammad is like an ancient version of the incredible hulk.

Hulk smash, hulk is the strongest, hulk will win and beat puny human, Hulk is will not listen to talk smash, Hulk hit puny woman she disrespect- not even the hulk does that he is has some human emotion.

To me its like a retarded version or caveman like talk that is so out dated it should be banned. I guess the Middle East stayed put in it's black hole whist the rest of man movied away from the dessert to find greater things and the liberation making new nations that were free to propsper without Islams influence and to me they have done even if world wars set them back they got up again and progressed forward.

Posted by: jesusisthelamb at March 22, 2007 9:58 AM

Abu Jehad must be a troll. Nobody, except perhaps a German Judge or maybe hundreds of millions of muslims, could possibly be that stupid.

I wonder if German law would allow the cutting and bleeding of babies on Ashura, like this:

HAPPY ASHURA!

Posted by: Jimmy the Dhimmi at March 22, 2007 10:56 AM

Robert did not publish the entire story, which is a shame and unfair of him:

What was not included in the story is that the judge (a woman, amazingly, who has not been named yet) was immediately taken off the case and will face disciplinary procedures.

Link:

http://www.zdf.de/ZDFheute/inhalt/28/0,3672,5254972,00.html

"Solche Richter lassen jeden normalen Menschen verzweifeln", sagte CDU-Generalsekretär Pofalla. Urteile ergingen im Namen des Volkes, nicht im Namen des Korans. "Wenn der Koran über das deutsche Grundgesetz gestellt wird, dann kann ich nur sagen: Gute Nacht, Deutschland."

"Such judges bring every normal person to the end of his wits", said the CDU General Secretary Pofalle. Judgements are to be given by the people and for the people, and NOT based on the Koran. "When the Koran is placed over the german constitution, then I can only say: Good Night, Germany."

Das sagte Pofalla der "Bild". Die Richterin hatte in einem Scheidungsverfahren auf ein angebliches Gewaltrecht im Koran verwiesen und wurde daraufhin wegen Befangenheit von dem Fall abgezogen. Damit hatte der Antrag einer deutsch-marokkanischen Frau aus Frankfurt am Main Erfolg, die sich noch vor Ablauf des Trennungsjahres von ihrem Mann scheiden lassen will. Nach ihrer Darstellung misshandelte er sie.

This he said to the newspaper "Bild". The judge (a female) referred to the right to violence in the Koran during a divorce proceeding and as a result was taken off the case and found to be compromised. As a result, the application for a quick divorce of a german-maroccan women, who did not want to have to absolve the obligatory year of waiting before the divorce could be granted, was successful. According the the woman, her husband mistreated her.

So, when you read what Robert wrote, it is certainly bad enough that it has happened, but also proof that the german justice system is working according to exactly the same principles as ours. The system corrected this horrible "mistake" (I call it a crime) right away. So before you jump to castigate the germans, know that the people here are really pissed off about the decision and happy that the judge got canned.

Posted by: bonncaruso at March 22, 2007 12:38 PM

This judge feels it's appropiate to base her judgement on islamic laws.
How about other little laws and rules of Islam that can be applied to muslims in Germany? for examlpe.

- Lowering marriage age to 9 for girls?
- Allowing honor killings?
- Death penelty for apostates and insulters of Islam?
- Any female raped must provide 4 pious muslims to prove rape or else the victim is jailed for makking false accusations? ( and Germany has plenty of young rapeable females for muslim men)

This is to just name a few.
How far will Geramany go to appease the muslims?

Posted by: desidude at March 22, 2007 1:15 PM

When the law is an ass, it's one hell of a big one as in this case.

As Robert acknowledges, this judgment will likely be overturned at a higher court, and, no doubt, with the support of a growing number of female ex-pats from Muslim countries who don't want Sharia in Germany.

Posted by: waterdragon52 at March 22, 2007 2:40 PM

The judgement was overturned on the same day that the judge (Christa D.) was removed from the case.

Posted by: bonncaruso at March 22, 2007 4:54 PM

just remember this, the nazis felt right at home in germany too.

Posted by: callmeinfidel at March 22, 2007 5:12 PM

"Failing to follow the teachings of the Qur'an leads to breakdown of FAMILY."
Posted by: Abu Jehad

Tell that to the two kids left in the back seat of the car bomb that exploded in Baghdad on Tuesday.

Posted by: ImNoDhimmi at March 22, 2007 6:51 PM

A German judge adopts Sharia at the expense of a brutalized wife. Either a morally idiotic judge, or a coward afraid to do anything that might upset fervent Muslims, or else something is profoundly wrong with German law.

Posted by: traeh at March 22, 2007 8:37 PM

The case seems too strange to be true.

I guess the good news is that the Der Spiegel writer can hardly believe this.

Posted by: traeh at March 22, 2007 8:42 PM

traeh wrote: "A German judge adopts Sharia at the expense of a brutalized wife. Either a morally idiotic judge, or a coward afraid to do anything that might upset fervent Muslims, or else something is profoundly wrong with German law."

No, nothing is profoundly wrong with german law. The law worked in this case. The judge was removed from the case, was found compromised, and will now face her own disciplinary trial. Please show me an american legal process that is brought to light and corrected this quickly.

Not only that, the moroccan woman who pleaded to allow the speedy divorce without having to wait the obligatory year was granted the speedy divorce. So, in this case, justice was served and served correctly. The judge who took over the case from the compromised judge recognized the hardship that the moroccan woman was suffering. Quick, humane and just. What the hell more do you want?

Do I think it is crappy that a judge would think to even use the Koran as a basis? The answer is: yes. But, as you see, the german law system corrected this horrible mistake, and extremely fast.

So no, the german law system is not inherently screwed up, or better put, not more screwed up than it's american big brother.

Posted by: bonncaruso at March 23, 2007 11:16 AM

This just in this past Sunday’s paper…
One word's meaning
http://www.stltoday.com/stltoday/news/stories.nsf/nation/story/CD065458638092C3862572A9000EDE4C?OpenDocument&highlight=2%2C%22QURAN%22+AND+%22BEAT%22

“Daraba has been translated as beat, hit, strike, scourge, chastise, flog, make an example of, spank, pet, tap and even seduce.

Bakhtiar, 68, who has a doctorate in educational psychology, set out to translate the Quran because she found the existing version inaccessible for Westerners. When she reached the problematic verse, Bakhtiar spent the next three months on daraba.

Her eureka moment came on roughly her tenth reading of Edward William Lane's Arabic-English Lexicon, a 3,064-page volume from the 19th century, she said. Among the six pages of definitions for daraba was "to go away."

"I said to myself, 'Oh, God, that is what the prophet meant,'" said Bakhtiar. "When the prophet had difficulty with his wives, what did he do? He didn't beat anybody, so why would any Muslim do what the prophet did not?"

By Jove!! Yes that’s it! The profit, err, prophet never would’ve approved of such behavior. No woman has had the degree of human rights as the women under Mohammed!

-XRDC

Posted by: XRDC at March 26, 2007 2:02 PM