Robert wrote (again):
"Restore the Hagia Sophia as a cathedral, and we'll talk about Cordoba"

Hagia Sophia is not a mosque; it is a museum. So your example is misplaced.

Posted by: schmegel at March 28, 2007 4:48 PM

Tracy Wilkinson is a journalist slug....who know little or nothing about Islam...

Posted by: exsgtbrown at March 28, 2007 5:08 PM

No comment by this journalist that this "Great Mosque" was built on the ruins of a destroyed church?

Posted by: npabga at March 28, 2007 5:10 PM

Tell me more about how the mosque desecrated a church by building on it is there a plaque indicating this on the church have muslims ever made any reparations for this crime?

Posted by: mark52 at March 28, 2007 5:17 PM

Schmegel,

You say: "Hagia Sophia is not a mosque; it is a museum. So your example is misplaced."

Actually, no. It is just the analogy I wanted. The Hagia Sophia was a mosque for over 400 years, and is still not available for Christians to use for public prayer. Were the Islamic medallions covering the icons inside the Hagia Sophia removed, and its altar and iconostasis restored, the Muslims in Cordoba might conceivably have a case. Otherwise, they do not.

There are also, in any case, many other former churches in Islamic lands, to say nothing of the thousands of churches that were destroyed by Muslims during the years of conquest and dhimmitude.

Cordially
Robert Spencer

Posted by: jihadwatch at March 28, 2007 5:21 PM

"Hagia Sophia is not a mosque; it is a museum. So your example is misplaced."

schmegel, Good enough, so how about: Replace all the Christian churches you've burnt to the ground in -- let's say -- the past 5 years, and then we can talk. Nothing extraordinary there .. no one's being asked to replace the heads of all the Christians beheaded in the last 5 years or anything nearly so impossible. No one is asking to rebuild the temples (Hindu, Buddhist or Jewish - destroyed in the last 5 years) Just this: Rebuild the Churches Islam has destroyed/desecrated in the past 5 years. And then we'll talk.

Posted by: Daisytoo at March 28, 2007 5:28 PM

Have two hundred Catholics show up at a mosque in Spain and ask to say Mass

Posted by: PapaBear at March 28, 2007 5:30 PM

schmegel:
Hagia Sophia is not a mosque; it is a museum. So your example is misplaced

Schmegel, yes Hagia Sophia is a museum, now.
But Cordoba is a Catholic Cathedral, now.

If Muslims are hankering over Cordoba as it was then, then why can't Christians hanker after Hagia Sophia as it was then?

And while I have your attention, what about the restoration of churches in Egypt, Libya, Tunisia before Islam swept them away? And do I need to remind you that that Islam invaded, yes invaded Spain from 711AD to 1492AD.

You need to spend more time thinking about Islamic injustices committed by Muslims over the past 1400 years.

Posted by: UK Infidel Lover at March 28, 2007 5:45 PM

If we "succeed in Iraq" -- and according to President Bush we "must not, we dare not, fail" (words to that effect) -- then all manner of things shall naturally be well. The Arab lion will lie down with the Israeli lamb, no doubt just before Eid al-fitr. The Muslims in southern Thailand will suddenly discover that those origami-birds dropped on them from on-high, as a goodwill gesture, meant a lot to them, meant so much that they will stop decapitating Buddhist teachers and monks and villagers. The Muslims of Bangladesh will stop beating Hindus to death, and the Muslims of Pakistan stop killing Christians, and the Muslims of Kashmir and the rest of India stop putting bombs in Mumbai, or attacking the Indian Parliament. In Indonesia the Hindus and the Western tourists in Bali on whom they depend will no longer be bombed, and the Christians under sustained attack in the Moluccas will also suddenly be objects of affection by the circumambient Muslims.

It will be wonderful. Muslim swords, into Muslim plowshares, everywhere you look.

And not least in Spain, Al-Andaluz -- still remembered in street names and other toponyms all over the Arab world. Why, the American consulate in Jiddah sits at the corner of Al-Andaluz and Palestine Streets (convenient for attackers to remember).

Yes, if we bring "democracy" to the "ordinary moms and dads" in Iraq and the rest of the Middle East, do you doubt that not only will "they" not "follow us home" (because "they will follow us home" if we fail to achieve the mission of the Bush Administration, and bring that "democracy" to the "ordinary moms and dads" of a unified Iraq), but that in Cordoba, they will forget about their sinister demands and practically become Christians themselves.

Oh, it will all work out. Just keep focussing monomaniacally on Bush's "plan" for Iraq, and they just won't follow us home.

But what are all those Muslims doing in Cordoba now? And in Grenada? And in Paris and London and Amsterdam and Malmo and Marseilles and Brussels and Antwerp and Leeds and Bradford and Madrid and New York and Houston and Hoboken and Los Angeles and Dearborn? It looks as though "they" have already been "following us home" -- we the Infidels -- for quite a while now. Apparently they didn't even wait to find out how Iraq would turn out before "they" decided to "follow us home."

Posted by: Hugh at March 28, 2007 6:06 PM

With regard to Hagia Sophia...yes. If the Muslims demand Cordoba Cathedral then ...for the benefit of any Muslim trolls and lurkers visiting this site, here's what I'M praying for.

Some day - one day - by the grace of God (the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob; the God and Father of Jesus/ Yeshua the Christ) - Hagia Sophia, Church of the Holy Wisdom, that which for a thousand years was the most beautiful church in all Christendom, will be cleansed and repaired and re-dedicated and the Paschal Liturgy will be celebrated in its full splendour...by the Patriarchs of all the Eastern Churches, and with the Pope and Archbishop of Canterbury in attendance, and the Chief Rabbi as a guest if he wants to be, and the chants will be sung in Greek, and in Armenian, and in Latin, and in Russian (Slavonic), AND IN KURDISH AND TURKISH; and the congregation will include not only the descendants of those Greeks and Armenians who survived the Long Dark Night of Islam, but also some of those thousands of Kurds and Turks, descendants of jihadists, who have turned from darkness to light and embraced the faith of those whom their fore-fathers murdered. Now THERE'S a dream worth praying for!

Posted by: dumbledoresarmy at March 28, 2007 6:11 PM

Lets see now. If Muslims want to use Cordoba cathedral for prayers, then Muslims will have to allow thousands of mosques that have been converted from churches, to be used for Christian services.

Then again, as this will be a global thing, Hindus will certainly ask that thousands of temples converted to mosques be turned over for Hindu prayers.

But seriously this is not the intent of Muslims anywhere. What they are saying is that once a church becomes a mosque it is forever a mosque. It cannot go back to being a church again, and by their lights, the cathedral should be a mosque again. The same goes for Serbia, southern Thailand, Bosnia, Kosovo, and soon, certain parts of London, Paris, Birmingham, Amsterdam etc.

Ofcourse all this bold faced impudent effrontery by Mansur Escudero, is simply to make news, and show the gullible Western media that they are asking only to say prayers. What could be more nice and inoffensive, and it is just the intolerant Christians who are being.... intolerant.

What our MSM has yet to learn is that for the Muslim, saying Muslim prayers in a church, makes that piece of territory Muslim. It is a toe hold, which then rapidly expands to take over the whole church or cathedral.

Posted by: DP111 at March 28, 2007 6:13 PM

If we "succeed in Iraq" -

Well that depends on what the objectives are or were.

Posted by: DP111 at March 28, 2007 6:17 PM

If he wants to be an example to the world and 'put aside past differences' then he should take the first step.

The first step should be on his turf, not a first step on someone elses turf.

A great 'first step' would be for him to go back to his mosque and allow Christians to come in, wearing their shoes, bringing their women and allowing them to have services and prayer in their mosque, with their religion, WITHOUT the presence of the iman.

Then allow Jews to come in and do the same.

This would diminstrate a true example of 'trying to put the past behind us', not going into someone elses house and demanding rights and then say 'if you comply this would set a good example'.

After that then we can see if we can book Mecca for a 4th of July BBQ with pork chops. I mean comeon....'lets put past differences aside'.

Posted by: alaskan1000 at March 28, 2007 6:21 PM

Some of today's Muslims may long for Islam's glorious past, but Mansur Escudero insists he just wants a place to pray.

Poor fellow. It's too bad that NOWHERE IN ALL OF CORDOBA CAN HE FIND A PLACE TO PRAY. He must belong to some rather obscure sect that cannot pray in any of the existing mosques, or in his own room, or vehicle, or public or private places he spends his whole life in. NO -- the ONLY place he could possibly pray is inside a Catholic Cathedral whose main significance to them is that it was once a Mosque, and before that ... a cathedral!

The point being, that the Cordoba Cathedral is a symbol of Islamic Imperialism that has been undone. They conquered this part of spain and eventually took over many of the Christian sites. The original church was torn down and rebuilt into a mosque with greater splendor, whose significance was to demonstrate their ascendency and dominance (It's a theme perhaps Hugh could write on sometime: the historical use of architecture by Muslims to proclaim their belief in their own supremacy: taller spires, larger floor area, more expensive decorations, etc. etc. A similar example is found in almost every city in Europe today, the supreme example possibly being the London Markaz).

When the Caliphate was overturned again, the Catholics retook the church and, unlike the muslims before them, respected the architectural wonders left by their predecessors, and with a few essential conversions to make it a functional church again, began to use it for its original purpose: a Christian church.

It is the height of cheek for these muslims to pretend themselves to be the tolerant ones by insisting they be permitted to take over a "small" portion of the cathedral.

Read the history of the original muslim takeover of the church before it became a mosque -- you'll find that this is EXACTLY the procedure they used centuries ago. It was all in the name "cooperation and sharing between religions" until, "whoops, it's all ours -- the christians will have to find someplace else now!" The history sheds a lot of light on this particular current event. You can bet that these muslims are very much aware of the ancient history, and are quite aware that they are following in the steps of their predecessors.

The Catholics have been burned in Cordoba once already by this action. Will they learn from their former mistake?

Posted by: Archimedes2 at March 28, 2007 6:40 PM

alaskan1000

And Jews should be allowed to say prayers in mosques in Mecca and Medina.

Then indeed "We could be an example for the world," he said, "awakening the consciences of both Christians and Muslims and showing it's possible to put aside past conflicts."

Yeah, that will be the day.

Posted by: DP111 at March 28, 2007 6:42 PM

Remember also the 'Flying Imams' incident. This very much of the same, that is, staking out territory for Islam.

Posted by: DP111 at March 28, 2007 6:44 PM

Those of us who support religious freedom - especially those of us who are Christians, of whatever tradition - should find out the appropriate contact details so that we can write letters of support, first of all to the bishop and his flock at the Cordoba Cathedral, urging them to dig in their toes and maintain their position: that it is a Cathedral and will remain a Cathedral, a place of Catholic Christian worship. Similar letters to be sent to the Vatican. Again: a call to Catholics, Orthodox and Protestant Christians - how about reciting a regular prayer for the bishop of Cordoba? Mentioning it to your parish priest? Any clergy persons 'lurking' at this site? - write a letter of support to your brethren in Cordoba. Non-believing non-Muslims: consider the human rights of the indigenous people, the Cordoban Catholic Spaniards. THE MOORS WERE NOT INDIGENOUS TO SPAIN - THEY WERE RUTHLESS, CRUEL, DESTRUCTIVE INVADERS. The Spaniards eventually booted them out - hurrah! - and 'redeemed' what had originally been (as pointed out by someone here) a blatant symbol of Muslim imperialism. The Muslims are trying to re-conquer Spain, to which they had no earthly right in the first place.

Personally, I'd like to see the Christians of Cordoba organising a 24-hour cycle of devotions in their cathedral and just outside it. Public readings of the scriptures as prescribed by the lectionary, given on the front steps, morning, noon, and night. Groups taking turns to pray, sing and celebrate the holy office inside (call in the Benedictines or the Taize brothers). Any Muslim seeking entry should be politely offered a copy of the Holy Gospels and told to come back after they've read it.

Posted by: dumbledoresarmy at March 28, 2007 7:47 PM

Just looking for a renewed beachead for Resurgent Islamic Imperialism's way back to Al-Andalus, then all of Spain, then all of Europe.

Until they accept the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, Mohammedans shouldn't be allowed out of any "Muslim" lands and into the West.

They are the intolerant seeking the ignorant.

They've had a bonanza for 40 years suckering the dhimmis.

Time to call of this farce and send them packing.

Posted by: profitsbeard at March 28, 2007 8:03 PM

While we are on the topic, I recommend that both the Al Aksa Mosque and Dome of the Rock be carefully taken down and packaged in little pieces to be reassembled somewhere far to the west of the Jordan River. In its place, that quintisential Jewish place, a Jewish temple should be rebuilt.

Posted by: Papa Bear at March 28, 2007 8:03 PM

Remember also the 'Flying Imams' incident. This very much of the same, that is, staking out territory for Islam.

Posted by: DP111

Love your comments, DP. Always short but to the POINT.

Posted by: Allahfanculo at March 28, 2007 8:06 PM

Guys, the camel's got his nose in the tent. He's trying to get his feet in. They say when the camel has his nose in the tent the body is sure to follow. This is an Arab saying. Word to the wise.

Posted by: Allahfanculo at March 28, 2007 8:11 PM

Allahfanculo

Thanks.

Your nick always makes me smile. It must make the RoPers seethe.

Posted by: DP111 at March 28, 2007 8:33 PM

I think I've posted of this site before, but not sure

http://www.thepeoplescube.com/

It is a witty and politically astute site.

There is an article on Global warming, and again, astute and funny.

And there was the one about the BBC's HezbLALA Teletubby, all decked out with suicide bomb belt..that had me in stitches.

After a hard days night commenting on JW/DW, it is refreshing to read this site as well as scrappleface.

Posted by: DP111 at March 28, 2007 8:47 PM

I came across this ad for a new thriller

-----------------------------------------

Invasion - Britain an Islamic state?

The concept seemed implausible at the turn of the century, yet the plans had been in place for many years. It began as a trickle, a slow drift towards the shores of Britain, where shelter from war and political persecution could be found. With the fall of the Balkans, the trickle became a steady stream. As the world headed toward the new millenium, the booming economies of the west drew people to Europe like moths to a flame. For many migrants, their destination of choice was Britain, a country where jobs could be easily found, where money and housing were provided and few questions asked, a country where the authorities, shackled by political correctness, could be intimidated and manipulated...

Over the years the flood of migrants continued unchecked. Lost amongst their numbers were the Islamic shock troops, trained in the deserts of Arabia and North Africa and sent to the West as refugees. Once there, false identities were obtained and contact made with other operatives. These Sleeper cells would lie dormant in their host countries for years, living quietly, avoiding attention, planning and preparing, waiting for the coded signal that would one day surely come...

JUNE 2019

The minutes tick away toward six pm. As communters stream out of central London, the Sleepers move into position. A truck idles by the pavement in Whitehall, its cargo bay packed with explosives. An airliner, on final approach into Heathrow, is tracked by surface-to-air missiles. All across the country, heavily-armed groups of fighters take up positions near police stations, government buildings and military installations. Their wait will be short. Soon the hour will arrive and the chaos will begin.

The face of Europe is about to change, moulded by a series of events that will have global repercussions far into the future...

http://www.invasioneurope.com/overview.htm?gclid=CLv0893lmIsCFTwHQgodxmeKDQ

========================================
Well that is what we've been predicting for years. And now it has become a subject matter for a thriller. Hopefully, people will read this and become aware of the acute danger we have put ourselves in.

Mr Spencer, if you think I've taken liberty in posting an ad to a thriller, please forgive me, and delete this comment forthwith.

Posted by: DP111 at March 28, 2007 9:20 PM

Cmon, there must be a masjid or Islamic center in Cordoba. With the growing number of Muslims, there must be some place where Muslims already can pray. Why the hell aren't LA Times reporters not connecting the dots?

Posted by: wrathofasma at March 28, 2007 9:22 PM

Notice that it is always the WEST that is asked to give to muslims. And remember they will ask first, then it is 'their right' and they demand second.

Posted by: alaskan1000 at March 28, 2007 9:54 PM

DP111, I am crying I;'m laughing so hard!

Mamas, don't let your babies grow up jihadis.
Don't let 'em bomb cafes or explode them old trucks.
Let 'em be imams and mullahs and such.
Mamas don't let your babies grow up jihadis.
'Cos they'll never stay home and they're always alone.
Even with those virgins to love.

I think I broke something - too, too funny!

Posted by: libbysmom at March 28, 2007 10:14 PM

Well, it is a verbal tug of war so far. When will the Muslim patience wear down to the point that things start blowing up and people start dying? It is a natural progression of jihad.

Posted by: Pelayo at March 28, 2007 10:32 PM

Message for Robert Spencer :

You wrote : "...no one is agitating in Constantinople for the Hagia Sophia to be opened again for public Christian prayer.."

Look at this :http://www.keranisgroup.gr/index.asp

Hagia Sophia is the holiest temple of Christian Orthodoxy . It is the mother church of all Orthodoxy.

The malice held toward Christians in "secular" Turkey ( based on the Koran and their dislike of Christians for daring to rebel against their Islamic overlords in the Ottoman and modern eras in Turkey , means that the Hagia Sophia has more chance of being turned into an oprational mosque than an operational Christian Church .

The Islamic "gene" in "secular" Turkey means that infidels must be duly subjugated and feel so . Hence the behavior regarding Hagia Sophia.

Posted by: purplemarbles at March 28, 2007 10:33 PM

I say do not talk to them now because they (priests or bishops - whatever they call themselves) are puffed with arrogance.

They will talk to us when their heads are bowed under the noses of our horses (not that far off into the future)....Judgement day is very near anyway and before that the Muslims will inherit everything....A promise binding on Allah(swa)

Posted by: Abdullah at March 28, 2007 10:50 PM

Abdullah:

The failure of Islamic societies to produce anything of value or even of interest--culturally, economically, scientifically, etc. is striking.

You of course are left with the refrain of "Muslims will inherit everything." Why not get off your lazy behind and actually try create something? Is it because you know you can't? Are you smart enough to realize that?

Why not try to say "lets make a society here in the ME that is so great people that will beg to come here?" Why is it always "we will eventually take what you have created?"

You sound like a girlfriend that I dumped many years ago. The only thing she could create was annoyance. The only thing she could do well was take things that weren't hers.

Even in your rants, you reveal striking insecurity and inferiority. I don't need to take anything from you, while you wait for the day to take everything from me.

You call Bishops and Priests "arrogant" but it is you who wants to take what others have created. What is that if not arrogance? It is the arrogance of a spoiled child, wanting things that you do not earn.

Pathetic.

Posted by: JSobieski at March 28, 2007 11:22 PM

schmegl wrote: "Hagia Sophia is not a mosque; it is a museum. So your example is misplaced."

The Umayyad Mosque in Damascus is still a mosque. It is not a museum.

http://www.answers.com/topic/umayyad-mosque

Posted by: Johnathan at March 28, 2007 11:33 PM

Abdullah wrote: " They will talk to us when their heads are bowed under the noses of our horses(not that far off into the future)...."

That 7th century war image of marching Arabian horses carrying Arbian soliders wielding curved swords is hardly intimidating to anyone here at dhimmiwatch.

Go ahead and ride your stupid Arabian horses.

The F-117 Nighthawk will wipe out every single Arabian horse on a battlefield.

http://library.thinkquest.org/4027/modern_fighter.html

Posted by: Johnathan at March 28, 2007 11:42 PM

It seems appropriate to remind everyone that the Parthenon in Athens was an Orthodox Church longer than it was a temple of Athena, that is, until it was turned into a Mosque in the fifteenth century. It is not too far a stretch of the imagination to see Notre Dame, Chartres or Westminster Cathedral with minarets, is it? The Lourve burnt?

It also seems the appropriate time to mention the more than 100 medieval Orthodox cathedrals, churches, monasteries, eccelsial libraries and convents that have been destroyed in the former country of Albania, now Serbia and Croatia, in the last dozen years. One priest rebuilt his church and it was bulldozed, Sharia enforcement.

And, yes, Orthodox world-wide do dream of Pascha in Hagia Sophia.

Posted by: thelittlegreekwoman at March 29, 2007 12:11 AM

Abdullah,

I'm sure Satan (Allah)promised muslims they would inherit everything. Just remember that Allah (satan) is the master deceiver and will continue to deceive those who follow him. The only thing you will inherit is hell, rest assured.

Posted by: DownWithIslam at March 29, 2007 1:57 AM

Slightly off-topic, but partly on-topic: symptoms of the Islamization of Europe: From a recent speech by Pope Benedict:

"Fifty years after the signing of the Treaties of Rome, Benedict XVI turns to the present and the future of Europe..."

Benedict XVI:

“…from a demographic point of view Europe seems to be on a path that might lead to its twilight in history.”

It's rare to hear such statements uttered by a major world leader.

Posted by: Khaybar Oasis at March 29, 2007 1:58 AM

Khaybar Oasis:

That's because this Pope is no Dhimmi. The last Pope was instrumental to taking down Communism. I think this Pope, and future Popes, will be instrumental in defeating Jihad. The upcoming struggle is really an opportunity for the Pope to shine--he is best situated to explain certain things, request certain things, and to communicate the plights of many many victims.

I mean, what other leaders talk about the plight of non-Muslims in Islamic countries? Bush would never bring it up because of the Saudis. There is a deafening silence with regards to Iraqi Christians even though Iraq is the focus of so much MSM attention.

As a person convinced that the PC culture and our lame MSM are the key obstacles to victory, I hope that the Pope can create some cover for politicians to ask hard questions about Islam. That coupled with more attention to Apostates, and hopefully some Christian conversions in places like Iran may actually turn the tide.

Posted by: JSobieski at March 29, 2007 2:29 AM

It's rather interesting that most westerners really gives any thought to the Early Christians. Many read their Bible's weekly, but never ask themselves whatever happened to the Galatians, Corinthians, Thessalonians, etc.? Dr. Bostom's "Legacy of Jihad" gives an eyewitness account of the fate of the Thessalonians, and it is not a pretty picture.
"The Thessalonians tried to escape through the streets, pursued by the Saracens, who were unleashed like wild beasts. In their panic, men. women, the elderly, and children, fell into each other’s arms to give each other one last kiss. The enemy hit with no mercy. Parents were killed while trying to defend their children. No one was spared: women, children, the elderly, all were immediately pierced by the sword."
That...no pun intended is just the tip of the sword. The more things change the more they say the same.

Posted by: Infidel One at March 29, 2007 3:27 AM

Turkey will refuse on the grounds that Hagia Sophia is now a museum,that is neutral,not a church neither a mosque
They will also say that they are a secular country and moderate and dont confuse them with the Arabs who ask for the Cordoba.
All this has always been accepted by Western leaders.

Posted by: athenian at March 29, 2007 4:24 AM

Schmegel shows how little he/she knows. Obviously a troll and wind up merchant. Hagia Sophia started out as a cathredral, was converted into a mosque after the fall of Constantinople (perhaps Schmegel doesn't recognise its minarets - maybe he/she thinks its minarets are early attempts at building a rocket), then a museum in the 1920s.

Posted by: Spirit Of 1683 at March 29, 2007 5:33 AM

In the future, if Catholics become a tiny minority with few places to pray, will the Tracy Wilkinsons of the future be writing stories about how hard it is for them and how they deserve a break? Of course not because even as minorities, which they are all over the Middle East, anything related to Christianity is outside of journalists' sphere of sympathy.

God, journalists are idiots. They can't even seem to grasp the simple wisdom of the saying "Don't crap where you eat", since they crap all over Western society on a daily basis, despite the fact that only in Western society do the philosophical assumptions they require to practice their trade exist. How people that stupid manage to survive day-to-day is truly beyond my comprehension.

Posted by: venividivici at March 29, 2007 7:29 AM

I guess by Ms. Wilkinson's logic, the Israelis have every right to expropriate the Dome of the Rock for encroaching on Temple Mount and the nearby Church of the Nativity. Despite all efforts of the you-know-whos to deny the superior claims of Jews and Christians to Jerusalem, both the architecture of the Dome, the inscription therein that denies a key Christian belief and archaelogy digs are overwhelming proof of the Johnny-come-lately status of the Muslims.

And Daniel Pipes points out that the Turks actually planned to destroy Al-Aqsa rather than see it come under British control. It was saved only because a Jewish sargeant serving in the Austrian army prevented the order from being carried out.

Posted by: waterdragon52 at March 29, 2007 8:55 AM

"They will talk to us when their heads are bowed under the noses of our horses."
Wow, talk about living in the past. The slave has been watching too many Mexican novelas. Here in the west, people realized that riding horses into battle wasn't really practical after Cossacks tried to do just that against Russian tanks.

Posted by: Abu Allah at March 29, 2007 10:46 AM

Dogs piss to establish their territory. To claim territory. That's what this rat is doing with his Moslem "call to prayer" in a Catholic Church

Posted by: dennisw at March 29, 2007 11:39 AM

dennisw:

As I recall not too many years ago, some rats trying to hole up from the IDF in the Church of the Holy Sepulchre not only held the priests hostage for several weeks, they perpetrated all sorts of acts of desecration too.

Posted by: waterdragon52 at March 29, 2007 4:27 PM

Some of today's Muslims may long for Islam's glorious past, but Mansur Escudero insists he just wants a place to pray.

"We could be an example for the world," he said, "awakening the consciences of both Christians and Muslims and showing it's possible to put aside past conflicts."

"We are the Borg. We just want to board your ship. All we want is your technology. Be prepared to be assimilated."

This conflict will never end until one side ceases to exist.

Posted by: Allahfanculo at March 29, 2007 5:37 PM

And Daniel Pipes points out that the Turks actually planned to destroy Al-Aqsa rather than see it come under British control. It was saved only because a Jewish sargeant serving in the Austrian army prevented the order from being carried out.

Posted by: waterdragon52

Damn.. a selfhating Jew.

Posted by: Allahfanculo at March 29, 2007 5:47 PM

In order for Muslims to stop oppressing non-Muslims and to rstore non-Mslim houses of worship that were converted into mosques, Muslims need to be taught about the pre-Islamic history of nations that are today Islamic. f Muslims are de-programmed and taught this history by non-Muslims who refuse to be dhimmis, then they may be wiling to sincerely improve relations with the non-Muslims around them.

Posted by: Christian at March 29, 2007 11:18 PM

SCHMEGEL,

To criticize Robert, you said, "Hagia Sophia is not a mosque; it is a museum. So your example is misplaced."

If YOU knew your history, you would know that Hagia Sophia was the greatest church in the world which the Muslims overran and turned into a mosque!

Only recently has Turkey forced them to give it up as a mosque and has turned it into a museum.

"So your example is misplaced." And so is your information!

Posted by: Notadhimmieyet at March 30, 2007 9:49 AM

"It's rather interesting that most westerners really gives any thought to the Early Christians. Many read their Bible's weekly, but never ask themselves whatever happened to the Galatians, Corinthians, Thessalonians, etc.? Dr. Bostom's "Legacy of Jihad" gives an eyewitness account of the fate of the Thessalonians, and it is not a pretty picture.

Excellent observation by Infidel One above:

Not only do they rarely think about what happened to these original Christians but they refuse to see even the ones who have survived. These original "Palestinian" Christians are now being eliminated by Hamas and the PA but few speak up for them. Although "Arab" by culture (just like many Mizrahi Jews) they are definitely not Arabs. These Christians are the direct descendants of those original followers of Christ and his apostles. That means that originally their ancestors were mostly Jews with some Nabateans, Greeks, and Idumeans. Of course others have mixed in over the last two thousand years but unlike the Muslims, only Jews, the few surviving Samaritans, and these Christians can show that they were the original inhabitants of of Judea, Samaria, and Galilee.

-----

schmegel,

While the Hagia Sophia was converted to a museum in the 1920s, Muslims are only prevented from group prayers, sermons, etc. They may still pray there individually while Christians may not pray there at all.

Posted by: Provoslavni at March 30, 2007 12:15 PM

From answers.com on the Ammayad mosque in Damascus, another prize of Islamic conquest:

"Initially, the Muslim conquest of Damascus in 636 did not affect the church, as the building was shared by Muslim and Christian worshippers. It remained a church although the Muslims built a mud brick structure against the southern wall so that they could pray. Under the Umayyad caliph Al-Walid I, however, the church was demolished and between 706 and 715 the current mosque built in its place . According to the legend, Al-Walid himself initiated the demolition by driving a golden spike into the church. At that point in time, Damascus was one of the most important cities in the Middle East and would later become the capital of the Umayyad caliphate."

Note the boldface text ... Gee, we only want a small place to pray, and won't it be a wonderful way to show the world about tolerance and interfaith understanding?

Note: this story is almost an EXACT parallel to that of the Cordoba Cathedral => Mosque => Cathedral. They began by "creating a small spot in the Cordoba church to pray", paraded it as an example of how tolerant muslims are to other religions, and then they kicked the Christians out, tore it down and made a mosque.

He who can't recall the past...

Posted by: Archimedes2 at March 30, 2007 12:53 PM

agia sophia would have been a church again if the british and french had allowed Greeks to take it back during greece war of independence. The fact is agia sophia is a mesuem but before it was a mosque it makes me sick how western travel agents advertise agia sophia for tourist to go and see it when it should be a church for orthodox christians to pray in i wish the west would just leave orthodox christians alone and stop helping turks

Posted by: Greek Gurl at April 1, 2007 7:45 AM

The idea of Muslims turning up at a Catholic cathedral and demanding access to conduct muslim prays, is about as offensive as a group of Nazis turning up at Auswitch and demanding access to hold a candel light vigil in honour of Hitler!

Why is anyone stupid enough to entertain this notion and give airtime or press coverage?

Posted by: GazzaLDN at April 1, 2007 5:34 PM