Despite everything -- despite all the news you read of Muslim abominations every day -- this might be the most disgusting thing I have ever read.

Posted by: Marwan'sDaughter at April 20, 2007 4:22 AM

It is haram to pray anything for a kafir. While he/she is alive you can only pray along the lines of "Allah guide them to Islam". Not even for health or wealth or etc. The reason being Islam is more important for their salvation than good health or money or relationship problems etc. Life in this world is temporary. All our good states and bad states (health, problems, worries etc.) in this life will come to an end. The next life is for ever and therefore more important and faith is THE primary personal obligation on all humans. You can wish them well and donate charity and etc to them, in certain cases its even necessary. A Muslim who sleeps with his/her belly full while the neighbour is hungry (be it Muslim or kafir) is wretched. But the only DUA (supplication/prayer) you can invoke for them is for them to be guided to Islam, because Islam is what they NEED, whether they want it or not and THE greatest mercy, blessing, asset etc. for a human being. Even for ourselves, we must first and foremost ask Allah to keep us steadfast on faith and forgive our sins and grant us death on the state of iman before we ask anything else.

After their death, it is haram and kufr to pray for Allah's mercy on the soul of a nonbeliever. We go by the externally apparent when we say nonbeliever. Allah has promised an eternity of hell-fire for disbelievers and He does not go against his promise. He has said explicitly in the Quran that other than disbelief, any other sin will be forgiven. So to pray for peace or forgiveness or mercy on the soul of a disbeliever is IN ESSENCE making a mockery of the word of Allah and the promise of Allah and religion which is kufr. Allah is our creator and he owns us and has the first and foremost right on us. He gave us our parents, friends, health, wealth etc. Our love and loyalty for his gifts CAN NOT supercede our loyalty to Him and His Messenger icon_saws.gif . The prophet icon_saws.gif has said that none of us have faith until he is dearer to us than any other creation. We cant possibly be more loyal to a rejector of Muhammad icon_saws.gif than we are to Muhammad icon_saws.gif himself. We cant possibly love or respect someone who does not believe in Allah and His Messenger icon_saws.gif and rejects them. Would you be friends with a person who insults your father and mother unnecessarily? Allah and His Messenger icon_saws.gif have more rights on you than your parents. Moreover, would you ask your parents to meet and greet this person when you know he will insult them to their faces?

In this life the disbelievers recieve Allah's mercy, food, rain, health, wealth, kids etc. Allah's mercy in the next life is for believers exclusively. A kafir is NOT rewarded for his/her good deeds in the next life. A kafir is rewarded for his/her good deeds in this life itself. NO amount of good actions can bail one out of the crime of disbelief. The Quran says in numerous places "Yaa ayyuhal ladheena aamanoo wa 3amilus saalihaat" (O you who BELIEVE and commit good deeds). Always the aamanoo (the belief part) is a precursor to the amal salih (good deed). There are places with standalone "yaa ayyuhal ladheena aamanoo" (O you who believe) but you wont find a stand alone (O you who do good deeds). Thats because good deeds without faith in this life are meaningless as far as the NEXT LIFE is concerned. Nowhere in the Quran is there a promise of peace or mercy or reward for people who do good deeds but do not believe. Rather theres the promise of Allah of His wrath.

Their file is closed once they pass away. Allah will give them what they deserve.
Allah and His Messenger icon_saws.gif know best.

From the MuslimVillage forums on a thread devoted to just this vexing question.

link to comment.

link to thread.

I am not of a mind to comment at the moment. There is a lot to digest.

L.Drummond.

Posted by: L.Drummond at April 20, 2007 4:29 AM

"Allah the Most Merciful forbids praying for mercy for the non-Muslim dead, or even for the non-Muslim living,"

Am I the only one seeing how sinisterly ironic this sentence is?

Posted by: Witch-king of Angmar at April 20, 2007 6:04 AM

...It is clear, Muslims intend to eliminate the Non Muslims....

.....Ban Muslim Immigration now...

Posted by: exsgtbrown at April 20, 2007 6:14 AM

I dont knoiw what thier is to debate, the Quran is clear on this
9:113. It is not (proper) for the Prophet and those who believe to ask Allâh's Forgiveness for the Mushrikûn (polytheists, idolaters, pagans, disbelievers in the Oneness of Allâh) even though they be of kin, after it has become clear to them that they are the dwellers of the Fire (because they died in a state of disbelief).

Posted by: KAOSKTRL at April 20, 2007 6:29 AM

Thats right. Muslims cannot pray for unbelievers. Pamela from Atlas Shrugs covered it here:

http://atlasshrugs2000.typepad.com/atlas_shrugs/2007/04/virginia_tech_m.html

Here's more:

http://sheikyermami.com/2007/04/20/islamic-forum-al-jazeera-reported-20-dead-and-29-injured-praise-be-to-allah/

Posted by: sheik yer'mami at April 20, 2007 6:31 AM

As a non-Muslim, I can actually understand why Muslims might debate the issue--although using some Muslims' refusal to pray for non-Muslim dead is a complete non-starter for me. There were probably Muslims who had non-Muslim friends injured or killed (it happens, despite what the Wahabis want), and whose instinct is to ask for mercy for someone close. And if some other Muslims feel that the dead are beyond the help of our prayers, I can understand that, too.

Among Christians, the idea of praying for the dead arose when people forgot the sufficiency of Christ's work on the cross as atonement wasn't quite enough; and figured that there were people working off their debts in an intermediate destination called Purgatory.

The Bible knows nothing of a Purgatory, however. Those in heaven are there because of God's mercy through Jesus Christ, not because of their own merits. They are beyond the need of our prayers; those in Hell are beyond the help of our prayers. Pray for the survivors, that they might be upheld, comforted, and brought to God's grace. And pray for our own posterity.

Posted by: Kepha at April 20, 2007 6:59 AM

As a non-Muslim, I can actually understand why Muslims might debate the issue--although using some Muslims' refusal to pray for non-Muslim dead is a complete non-starter for me. There were probably Muslims who had non-Muslim friends injured or killed (it happens, despite what the Wahabis want), and whose instinct is to ask for mercy for someone close. And if some other Muslims feel that the dead are beyond the help of our prayers, I can understand that, too.

Among Christians, the idea of praying for the dead arose when people forgot the sufficiency of Christ's work on the cross as atonement wasn't quite enough; and figured that there were people working off their debts in an intermediate destination called Purgatory.

The Bible knows nothing of a Purgatory, however. Those in heaven are there because of God's mercy through Jesus Christ, not because of their own merits. They are beyond the need of our prayers; those in Hell are beyond the help of our prayers. Pray for the survivors, that they might be upheld, comforted, and brought to God's grace. And pray for our own posterity.

Posted by: Kepha at April 20, 2007 6:59 AM

Over at Little Green Footballs, Charles Johnson picks up a story from IsraelNN.com about the Virginia Tech massacre. A professor who was a Holocaust survivor may have tried to protect students by blocking the doorway to his class room. The same story also notes that the massacre occurred on Holocaust Memorial Day.

Posted by: waterdragon52 at April 20, 2007 7:36 AM

This incident speaks volumes about the so called 3rd Abrahamic faith and so called religion of peace. Ali Sina has extensively pointed out how Islam is alone in not practicing the Golden Rule. Their fake phony fraud Allah has no mercy for the infidel. And sometimes mercy for the Muslim but Shiites get mass murdered, slaughtered in Iraq every day by psycho killer Sunnis so that's up for grabs too!

Posted by: dennisw at April 20, 2007 7:49 AM

Kepha your wrong about praying for the dead, but not because they cannot be saved, or brought into spiritual life by our prayers.

Death while still in rebellion cannot be undone by the prayers of others. In fact the prayers of others cannot force people to accept the Christian message of salvation, nor can our forgiveness of others change their absolute condition.

However, there are varying degrees of punishment for those who die while still spiritually dead.

Luke 12:23-24.

We are to forgive others as we have been forgiven by God. Not only are we supposed to, we are obligated to.

Mathew 6:12-15

When Christ was being crucified, he asked for the forgiveness of those persecuting him. I do not believe all those he prayed for repented, so of what value would those prayers be, if the only distinction in heaven is between repentance and non-repentance. I would also like to think that this prayer included the mocking thief, who Christ certainly knew was going to enter the next world spiritually dead. There are many other examples in the bible, of believers forgiving specific sins or transgressions against themselves.

Does this have an eternal impact on the afterlife of those non-believers who’s sins we have prayed to forgive? Certainly it would not lead to the salvation of those who died in rebellion; it may however lessen the degree of the punishments received. I am not certain.

What I am certain of is that as Christians we are obligated to pray for and forgive *all* our enemies regardless of the effect those prayers will have on those enemies. Even if it is not possible for prayers to reduce the punishment of the dammed, those same prayers for forgiveness affect our own spiritual walk, and are in fact an obligation of the follower of Christ.

How very different this is from the teachings of Islam. We pray for the good of individuals, and are obligated to show mercy, forgiveness and kindness to all our enemies. They are not even allowed to pray for, let alone actually do something positive, to those who are not included amongst the believers.

Truly Islam is the opposite of Christianity.

Posted by: Lorgan at April 20, 2007 8:23 AM

News of this reply, by the Muslim dean at American University, should be spread far and wide.

It will shock many, and it will attract the attention of a great many, for it is connects to an event that has, and will receive, a great deal of coverage. Merely pointing out what is the standard Muslim view of not praying for Infidels, when those Infidels have just been murdered, will allow for a discussion of a much larger question. But think of the hypotheticals. Did Muslims pray for the victims of the 9/ll attacks? Of course not (many celebrated, in fact). What if the attacker at Virginia Tech had been a Muslim? Would Muslims then have prayed for those killed? Answer: of course not.

What does this answer from the American University dean -- no doubt chagrinned that an Arabic-speaker was eavesdropping and could write about it, as MOhammad Guadi has -- point up? It points up how, in Islam, there is a complete division of the world between Believer and Infidel. Until someone is following "the right path" he has no claim to sympathy or loyalty of any kind. That is owed by Believers only to Believers. Nothing of human fellow-feeling, that has developed in all other religions, so that one can certainly sympathize with, and help protect, others not of the same faith (see Liviu Librescu, holding the door against the gunman with his body, so his students could escape).

In Islam, loyalty -- one's sole loyalty -- is owed to fellow members of the umma al-islamiyya. One does not owe, one is wrong even to think about owing, any true loyalty to Infidels or to an Infidel nation-state. One can go through some motions, when it may be deemed advisable in order to protect, and promote, Muslim interests -- but a good Muslim will never offer even such an outward display save to prevent too much inquiry by Infidels, in a society still run by Infidels, about the doctrines of Islam.

And Muslim loyalty must always be offered up to this trans-national community. That is why so few Muslims serve in the military -- excluding Black Muslims whose creed, and attitudes, are not in all respects orthodox (though more and more attempts are made to make it so)--and among the handful who do, surely some are no longer true Muslims, and others hoping to employ the training and knowledge of military techniques in ways that will or could be used to further Islam (this has been written about on Muslim websites).

Those engaged in the sometimes frustrating and certainly difficult task of convincing Infidels of what Islam inculcates, and above all else, what Islam inculcates about the view Believers must take toward Infidels, should recognize that the view into this world is made easier by the insistence, by this Amer view that is central to Islam, a belief-system that originated in the need for conquering Arabs to have an alternative to the faiths of those far richer, more advanced, and above all more numerous peoples, Christians and Jews and then Zoroastrians, whom they began to conquer, and found that not something entirely new, but compounded of appropriated figures and stories, distorted of course, from Christianity and Judaism, on a base of Arab pagan lore (those djinns) conquered

It is fascinating that the only person who objected to this perfectly standard Muslim view was a convert ("revert" in Islam, for if we are all born Muslims, we can only "revert" to it), that is someone who, as happens carefully with such new converts, did not realize much of what Islam is all about. In manuals of Da'wa, Muslims are told to be careful about revealing everything at once -- in a sense, they are mimicking the slow unveiling of the successive revelations, one suspects because any potential convert, if he or she was given the full truth about Islamic tenets before being accepted hurriedly into the faith scarcely knowing much more than knowledge beyond the five pillars of ritual (shehada, zakat, salat, Ramadan, hajj) and then watched over carefully by the imam and others in the mosque who take it upon themselves to monitor the "progress" of the new convert (with great sympathetic attention, with ostentatious kindnesses, with a "welcoming into the fold" that makes some poor souols so very, very grateful -- they have found, they think, At Last the answer to their Spiritual Search).

What this article reveals is nothing new to Muslims or to those non-Muslims who have studied Islam and refuse to lie about it (that leaves out the espositos and armstrongs -- of whom there are so many). But it will shock many, and that is a good thing. For in that shocking, other truths may come to light about what Islam teaches, and why it matters that more people know about this, grasp it, sooner rather than later -- later, when it is too late.

Finally, what will happen to that dean at American University? Will he be fired or asked to resign? He should be. And if he is not, then the alumni of American University, and the students, should demand it of the administration. For it is clear that had the gunman killed three dozen students at American University, the current Dean would have counselled Muslims that it is wrong to pray for those dead. That should get attention.

And what can that Dean do? Deny that that is the doctrine of Islam? Not at this point.

Make a case about this. Make a huge case.

Posted by: Hugh at April 20, 2007 8:26 AM

Abu Hamza Hijji, responded, writing that Allah the Most Merciful forbids praying for mercy for the non-Muslim dead, or even for the non-Muslim living, ...

Aafaq reported that a student named Chris, a recent convert, did not agree, and wrote that he usually does not intervene in this kind of discussion, but that this time he had to say "no." ... He expressed the view that religion must bring people together, and not drive them apart, and that the brotherhood of humanity takes precedence over brotherhood of religion or of state.

***

Welcome to the Hotel Islam, Chris. What a nice surprise, eh? Did they not tell you before you converted that there is no "brotherhood of humanity" in Islam? That the only "brotherhood" in Islam is with fellow Muslims because non-Muslims don't count as fully human?

Poor, foolish kids, looking meaning in an environment that denigrates their own culture and exalts the indefensible. How long before Chris starts having second thoughts about his choice? And what will happen if he tries to leave?

Posted by: CJ at April 20, 2007 8:45 AM

In manuals of Da'wa, Muslims are told to be careful about revealing everything at once

It's similar to other cults.

Appear loving and inviting at the start, get the victim in, slowly alienate the victim from any friends outside the group. Make it so that the victim's only friends are fellow group members.

Once that is done, once leaving the group also means that all your friends and family in the group will no longer be allowed to have contact with you, then it's very hard to leave

Posted by: PapaBear at April 20, 2007 8:59 AM

This just makes it all the more appalling that the first speaker at the convocation to remember the victims of this heinous crime was a muslim imam. What possible comfort could he have brought to the survivors as a representative of a religion that teaches that these people essentially deserved to be killed because they were not muslims? What PC idiot thought that was a good idea?

Posted by: dreadpirat at April 20, 2007 8:59 AM

While knowing of Islam's refusal to offer prayer for non-muslims in tragedies such as this Virginia Tech incident is disturbing, I wonder more about this position in other contexts.

What about when Muslims and non-muslims die in a common tragedy? Like say, a 9/11 for example?

Do muslims just pray for the muslims who died ( there were a few), and not for the non-muslims? How does one internally construct such a prayer?

Our president should have asked the group of Muslim leaders, when he went to that mosque in days following 9/11 to declare Islam a "Religion of peace", to join him in prayer for ALL the innocent deceased. Would they have dared to publically announce a refusal to pray based on religeous grounds? That would have opened some eyes.

What about brave and selfless soldiers who give their lives in defense of our country so that all of us in the U.S., including Muslims such as Abu Hamza Hijji, can excercise the freedoms that are a direct result and benefit of those ultimate sacrifices? Or better yet, who give their lives so that other MUSLIMS can live in peace and excercie their freedom of religion? Of course we know the answer: "No, Allah didn't think of these contingencies in the Koran, so prayers for the non-muslim soldier who gives his life for others is not allowed."

I would like to see some news commentator/talking head pose such a question to the next Iman, mullah, shiek, mufti, grand poo-bah who sits for an interview while attempting to convey the image of Islam as such a peace loving, merciful Religion.

Posted by: Leave Iraq Now at April 20, 2007 9:00 AM

Ahhh , I don't want to appear as perhaps copying or plagerizing someone elses ideas. After I posted my last, I noticed Hugh's and his 9/11 connection was quite similar to mine. I think we were composing at same time.

Posted by: Leave Iraq Now at April 20, 2007 9:08 AM

It's so ironic that I wake up to find this article...

I couldn't sleep last night, and wound up watching a couple of Discovery shows - one on hard jobs and one on outcasts of society. In the first one, there was a Buddhist woman who, in her spare time, volunteers to pick up and transport dead bodies of car crash victims, murder victims, etc, because she believes this will help her Karma. In the second show, leper colonies in Thailand were shown, where they interviewed some of the various Christian women (always women, only women seem to do this huh?) who have dedicated their lives to caring for the lepers that are castoffs from society.

And what struck me was that here I was seeing beautiful examples of humanity from 2 of the worlds religions... which immediately had me thinking, 'There are *NO* Muslim charities or Muslims who do charity or volunteer work for non-Muslims.'

There were Buddhist men and women, sacrificing and volunteering for human beings, regardless of their religious affiliation.

There were Christian women with crosses around their neck and Catholic nuns who have dedicated every moment of their lives to caring for the lowest castes of society: lepers - feeding them, tending to their disgusting wounds, and, in the words of one nun, 'Making them feel like people again, not like animals.' These women weren't tending only to other Christians... they were tending to everyone who needed help, again regardless of their religious affiliation.

And, where are people of the Islamic faith out there helping other human beings in so pure a way? Offering to nurture and aid needy fellow human beings regardless of their religious affiliation?

The answer is, there are NONE.
ZERO.

There is not *ONE* Islamic/Muslim charity on this planet that is there to help everyone, regardless of their religious affiliation.
The ONLY Islamic/Muslim charities out there are for their fellow Muslims ONLY.

And so yet again, just like in so many other ways (science, healthcare, technology, etc) Muslims are here on planet Earth only sucking up resources, without giving back a single, small thing to EVERYONE. They will give back to their fellow Muslims (how many times have we had it shoved down our throats that part of their hajj is all about cooking food for poor Muslims who can't afford to eat?) but they will NEVER give back to EVERYONE ELSE.

What a disgusting, parasitic cancer Islam is to Earth and EVERYONE ELSE here.

When will the rest of the world wake up and recognize this? We see it SO CLEARLY -- why can't everyone else see it too??

Posted by: JenBee at April 20, 2007 9:25 AM

If only we could....

Ask Maliki if he will pray for the 3000 plus US soldiers to whom he and his countrymen owe an incalcuable debt of gratitude? As an incentive we can remind him of the $800 billion or so that Americans have spent to bring freedom to him and his countrymen, which will result in no encumbrance upon his nation, but we simply ask one small favor in return, a prayer for the souls of those who sacrificed their lives for him and millions of Iraqi citizens.

Same question for Karzai- just interpose Afganistan for Iraq.

lets see how Americans react to an answer similar to Hijji's.

Posted by: Leave Iraq Now at April 20, 2007 9:26 AM

I read that an Muslim imam was the first speaker at a university convocation the day after the killings at VA Tech. I wonder what he said? In light of the above Islamic ruling, anything the imam said was yet another PR stunt, and nothing sincere in his condolences. As for Chris, the Muslim convert, hopefully, when things settle down in his life, he will re-examine his conversion and decides that a religion that shows no mercy is not something that he wants to associated with for the rest of his life. Of course, if he does decide to leave the Religion of Peace, go quietly...ugly things happen to people who leave the followers of Allah.

Posted by: maryrose at April 20, 2007 9:29 AM

"Among Christians, the idea of praying for the dead arose when people forgot the sufficiency of Christ's work on the cross as atonement wasn't quite enough"

posted by Kepha above.

Kepha,
You're very wrong on this. The Christian ideas of praying for the dead is a carry over from Judaism and is clearly found throughout the Old Testament.

Even today, within Judaism, prayers for the dead form part of the Jewish services. The prayers offered on behalf of the deceased consist of: Recitation of Psalms; Reciting a thrice daily communal prayer in Aramaic known as "Kaddish" which actually means "Sanctification" (or "[Prayer of] Making Holy") which is a prayer "In Praise of God"; or other special remembrances known as Yizkor; and also a Hazkara said either on the annual commemoration known as the Yahrzeit as well on Jewish holidays.

In the New Testament, Paul clearly prayed for the dead Onesiphorus in 2 Timothy 1:16-18 when he writes:
"May the Lord show mercy to the household of Onesiphorus, because he often refreshed me and was not ashamed of my chains. On the contrary, when he was in Rome, he searched hard for me until he found me. May the Lord grant that he will find mercy from the Lord on that day! You know very well in how many ways he helped me in Ephesus."

So praying for the dead has been part of Christianity from the time of the apostles.

Posted by: Provoslavni at April 20, 2007 10:01 AM

Lorgan wrote:

"How very different this is from the teachings of Islam. We pray for the good of individuals, and are obligated to show mercy, forgiveness and kindness to all our enemies. They are not even allowed to pray for, let alone actually do something positive, to those who are not included amongst the believers.

"Truly Islam is the opposite of Christianity."

Well said, Lorgan.

This illustrates a big difference in our religions and philosophies.

I think that recent convert, Chris, will either allow his spirit to be squashed, and his intellect suppressed, so he can remain in Islam or he will insist on his right to believe certain things which will force him out of Islam. He's too much of an independent thinker for any oppressive religion and I hope he will hold on to his ability to think critically.

Posted by: Josephine at April 20, 2007 11:03 AM

I didn't exactly pray for the dead but I still took the time to pray for the survivors of those victims, and not all of the victims were Christian. There was an Indonesian, probably Muslim, then there was the Holocaust survivor. And there were also two Indians, one professor and one graduate student, who were most likely Hindus. God's mercy and comfort is for all. It's very telling about Islam and the nature of Allah when Muslims have to debate praying for non-Muslims, alive or dead. Let's not connect this to Ismail Ax (as some people might do) but let's learn from this separately.

Posted by: wrathofasma at April 20, 2007 11:10 AM

He said that he would pray for him and for his family, whether they are Muslims or not, and would pray for all those who suffered from this calamity.

Sounds like he should "reconvert" back to the true faith. The faith of what I assume he was brought up in,Christianity...

"Allah the Most Merciful forbids praying for mercy for the non-Muslim dead, or even for the non-Muslim living,"

Am I the only one seeing how sinisterly ironic this sentence is?

It's amazing he can even type that out without questioning his whole "faith", it really gives insight into how they think, or should I say the LACK of thinking....

Posted by: adobe at April 20, 2007 11:20 AM

Provoslavni

This doctrine of praying for the dead that comes from 2 Timothy, is based on the assumption that Paul knew Onesiphorus was dead.
2Ti 1:18. may the Lord grant him to find mercy from the Lord on that Day!.......
If Paul knew he was dead, then wouldn’t he have known when “that Day” was?

Allah the "most" merciful, except when he’s not.

Posted by: Bar at April 20, 2007 11:42 AM

Islam cannot pray for them, only prey on them.

It's the Koran, suckers.

Posted by: profitsbeard at April 20, 2007 12:01 PM

“Islam cannot pray for them, only prey on them.”

Well said, Profitsbeard, and how very true it is!!

Posted by: descendantofacrusader at April 20, 2007 12:10 PM

Naseem? Abdullah? Any comments??

Posted by: Concerned Citizen at April 20, 2007 2:51 PM

"Aafaq reported that a student named Chris, a recent convert"

chris you're a brain dead, aren't you?

Posted by: FedUpagain at April 20, 2007 3:11 PM

Bar,

In the original Greek text, Paul clearly speaks of Onesiphorus in the past tense. This is also clear in the English translation where Paul is also comforting Onesiphorus' family.

As for the prayer that Onesiphorus "find mercy from the Lord on that Day" this is clearly a reference to the Day of Judgement where we should all pray that we will find mercy.

Posted by: Provoslavni at April 20, 2007 3:22 PM

This is sickening...

Posted by: Haidon at April 20, 2007 3:34 PM

What can Allah do? We have the only ONE and Almighty! She better start praying for herself! ummm for a new way!

Posted by: MZ at April 20, 2007 3:40 PM

It is like turning over the the stone of the Kaaba and seeing what horrors crawl underneath.

Posted by: poetcomic1 at April 20, 2007 3:42 PM

With prayers like that who needs a GOD?

Posted by: MZ at April 20, 2007 3:56 PM

BAH! the stone of the Kaaba is nothing more than a meteorite that fell from space....similar stones are found worldwide...all fell from space, blazed through the sky (those who have witnessed such an event were dazzled and amazed)...Those 7th century camel riders who saw the stone of the Kaaba fall from the sky have seen nothing but a meteorite.....

....for centuries these 7th century camel riders have been worshipping a rock, nothing more, nothing less....

....underneath that rock is nothing but planet earth...sand and stone....just like the rest of the desert.....

Posted by: exsgtbrown at April 20, 2007 3:58 PM

Does it matter if they pray for us not like they are sending it Christ to help anyone or to heal by faith? To be honest I would not care if a Muslim was to pray for me or not but I guess a righteous God will accept their efforts if they had chosen a right path it's not like Christ would shun them off he listens to all prayers. But no Islam would find that intolerable on the trying to be humanly nice to another human dhimmi according to this article, I mean the thought is there but lacks power and conviction if not a conflict to them within, not the God I know would be so arrogant, the Bible does say pray for sinners and your enemies God sees them as the souls that got away from his fishing net and he is asking for them the most. To be honest Christ and Allah are different one is one is love and one is peaceful. As you can see so peaceful that prayer is a problem.

Posted by: jesusisthelamb at April 20, 2007 4:18 PM

STILL
and the world keeps sinking down
to the ground

from which we raised ourselfs from

people listen
in hopes to hear
words of knowledge
words of hope

the only hope you will know
is death is better
the only hope
you'll know
is the Hope of Living 19971

Posted by: MZ at April 20, 2007 4:24 PM

Correction I wrote that in 1991.

Posted by: MZ at April 20, 2007 5:53 PM

Some posters above may not quite understand the meaning of this. What this tells us if you are asked to speak before a ceremony where any Muslim is present or could hear of it, you should not ask everyone to pray for the dead if any of the dead are not Muslim.

It is an offense to Muslims if you are in a ceremony and you ask everyone there to pray for all the dead. It is not the Muslims who are wrong, it is you if you ask everyone to pray for the dead and those include Muslims. You are the one offending.

If President Bush was not told this in advance, then someone on his staff should be fired. President Bush should know it is an offense to Muslims to ask them to pray for non-Muslim dead.

If President Bush did that after 9-11, then he should apologize and Congress should pass a resolution of apology to Muslims for the President asking Muslims to pray for non-Muslim dead.

If Bush doesn't apologize at once for having done this, if he did, he should be impeached immediately.

I think anyone who has suggested that Muslims should pray for non-Muslim dead, even inadvertently, now that you know, you should ask for them to forgive you, unless of course that is forbidden. In that case, apologize for not knowing if you can ask them to forgive you, and just pay Jizyah tax.

In general, non-Muslims should not ask Muslims to forgive them, but should instead apologize for giving offense and promise to pay Jizyah tax. Also avoid the phrase, I don't know how you could forgive me, to Muslims, because they may be offended that you are implying they can't forgive a non-Muslim for your offense.

If you are present at any ceremony where this happens, you should interrupt the proceedings and correct the speaker.

Posted by: Old Atlantic at April 20, 2007 6:35 PM

What you should do in the case of speaking at a ceremony. You should say, I ask all people to pray for the Muslim dead, and non-Muslims may pray for non-Muslim dead, although its best if they should convert to Islam first, in which case they are forbidden to pray for the non-Muslim dead.

A non-Muslim should not try to lead Muslims in prayer. So you should not ask for Muslims to pray for the Muslim dead. You should apologize internally for offending Muslims when you say this.

You may wish to explain this, but apologize to Muslims if you do. Bear in mind, your apology may offend them, and you should apologize for that in advance. Bottom line, its really inappropriate for non-Muslims to lead any prayer in the presence of Muslims. So you really should refuse to lead in or participate in any prayer in which a non-Muslim will ask anyone to pray.

This means that President Bush should not have asked anyone to pray after 9-11, nor should any non-Muslim leader.

After 9-11, only Muslims should have asked Muslims to pray for Muslim dead only. Anything else is a deep offense to Muslims. As soon as that happened, that showed how justified 9-11 was.

Posted by: Old Atlantic at April 20, 2007 6:48 PM

Good, I don't want their "prayers".

Posted by: interestinconundrum at April 20, 2007 7:28 PM

lol........how does this get to be Bush's fault for some muslim chick! wants to pray and we do not want her prayers nor yours. Another one who speaks for allah. It is funny to see someone swear on the Quran I did not know it was possible! Swear on allah! You Muslims offend me! By the sht you are saying now!

Posted by: MZ at April 20, 2007 8:30 PM

The Muslim Prayer for the Infidels:

"Muslims, do not choose among the unbelievers for your friends." [Koran Sura 4:144] "But strike at their necks..." [Koran Sura 8:12] "Hell shall be their home, an evil fate." [Koran sura 9:73].

Inshallah. [The Muslim "Amen"]

Posted by: profitsbeard at April 20, 2007 9:48 PM

I always pray for my ex-kuffar friends. I ask Allah to show them the straight path, not the path of those who earned Allah's anger nor the path of those who went astray..Amin Ya Allah

What more could a kafir expect better than this prayer? The best prayer for a disbelieving soul

Posted by: Abdullah at April 20, 2007 11:06 PM

Will anyone bring this to the attention of the PC administration at Virginia Tech and ask why a muslim cleric was invited to pray for only the one muslim victim? I wonder if any of the family members of other victims are aware of this travesty. Probably not and I certainly wouldn't want to add to their suffering, but I think the university owes them an explanation and an apology. Apparently the university agrees with islam---the non-muslim students, the "unbelievers" were already doomed to eternal damnation. I doubt if the families of the non-muslim victims would have attended the ceremonies and listened respectfully to an islamic cleric if they knew his prayers were for muslims only.

Even in a time of intense grief and shock, political correctness rules the day. People should raise holy hell about this.

Posted by: Susanp at April 20, 2007 11:29 PM

Here's what the Imam said at the convocation:

"In the name of Allah, the most merciful, most compassionate.

On behalf of the Muslim community in Blacksburg, and as members of the Blacksburg and the Virginia communities, we express our sincere condolences to the families and friends of the innocent victims that we lost yesterday.

I stand here to tell you that we are all in pain. All of us here, the children of Adam and Eve, we all unite in pain and we’re all hurt.

Death strikes everyday all over the world. We see it on television, and hear and read about it in the media. But when it hits home, we feel its intensity and we recognize its reality.

The Islamic faith reminds us, in Sura Al-Baqara (The Cow), chapter two, verse 156 of the Holy Qur’an:

Those who say, when afflicted with calamity: "To Allah We belong, and to Him is our return".

And in Sura Luqman (Luqman may have been a prophet) Chapter 31, verse 34, Allah reminds us:

Nor does anyone know what it is that he or she will earn tomorrow, nor does anyone know in what land he or she is die. Verily, with Allah his full knowledge and he is acquainted with all things.

Death strikes home when we least expect it; to remind us of the only fact of life that we all subscribe to. Rich or poor, young or old, strong or weak, ill or well, in the battlefield or in the classroom, it comes to remind us of how vulnerable we are. No matter what we do, no matter how much security we have, no matter what we believe in, it will happen. Some would say, “It doesn’t have to happen that way.” I remind myself, and remind them, that there’s a Creator with a wisdom beyond our comprehension and with mercy and compassion far beyond our appreciation. To Allah we belong, and to him is our return.

I pray to God that this one incident will not change the character of our peaceful and friendly town and university. I pray to God that the quality of life that we all enjoy and will continue to enjoy in this community will continue to attract new students to our university, attract professionals to make this place their home, and continue to retire here.

Finally, we should not let this tragedy make us lose confidence in our great law enforcement officers. They have kept our community safe, and provided for the great quality of life we all enjoy at this university and in this town

We know them as diligent and dedicated professionals. Even a singularity of this immense magnitude should never overshadow all the good work these men and women have done to make this community so safe and so enjoyable.

I conclude with the Islamic greetings of peace, Assalamu alaikum’.

Note that he never prayed for the souls of the dead; Muslim or otherwise.

We'll likely never know why, but perhaps it was in order not to offend any Muslims in the room who might have taken umbrage at praying for the Kuffar.

Posted by: PRCS at April 21, 2007 1:58 AM

Lorgan wrote:
"They are not even allowed to pray for, let alone actually do something positive, to those who are not included amongst the believers.

Truly Islam is the opposite of Christianity."

This statement is not true about all forms of Christianity. The Orthodox Christian church forbids its followers from praying for non-Orthodox people (including Catholics and Protestants).

The exception to this is that Orthodox Christians are allowed to pray for non-Orthodox people to become Orthodox, just as, in the story above, Muslims are only allowed to pray for non-Muslims to convert to Islam.

The Orthodox Christian attitude to prayer for the dead is also identical to the Islamic one. As it is too late for the dead to convert to the 'right way', it is strictly forbidden to pray for those who died as non-Orthodox believers.

I personally find this doctrine impossible to stomach. But it is the official teaching of the Orthodox Church, as this link attests:

http://www.orthodoxinfo.com/praxis/prayer_nonorth.aspx

Posted by: schmegel at April 21, 2007 10:41 AM

schmegel,

The article you linked above is is the position of only a small minority within Orthodoxy. After all, we pray "for all men and women" in every Divine Liturgy. We also pray "for the salvation of all" meaning the entire cosmos and includes all living and dead.

Below I'll quote from a canonical Orthodox site whose position is consistent with that of all the major Orthodox Churches:

"It is the common teaching of the Orthodox Christian tradition that the Church has no monopoly on grace and truth and love. The Church teaches on the contrary that God is the Sovereign Lord who saves those whom He wills.

There are those Orthodox who feel that it is proper to pray for anyone and everyone, whether they be Orthodox or not, both in private as well as public.

There are those Orthodox who feel that, with regard to services other than the Divine Liturgy, it is proper to pray for non-Orthodox but that in the commemorations during the Divine Liturgy only Orthodox Christians should be remembered in prayer.

There are those Orthodox who feel that under no circumstance is it proper to pray for anyone who is not of the Orthodox faith. This, of course, is somewhat odd since in the Divine Liturgy we pray for the catechumens, that is, for those who are preparing to be baptized into the faith but who are not yet members of the Church. There are a number of other practices and examples which would tend to contradict this understanding."

from: http://www.oca.org/QA.asp?ID=173&SID=3

and...

"The Church believes as well that salvation depends upon the actual life of the person, and God alone is capable of judging since He alone knows the secrets of each mind and heart. Only God is capable of judging how well a man lives according to the measure of grace, faith, understanding, and strength given to him.

The Orthodox would insist, nevertheless, that an honest seeker of truth and love will see these things perfectly realized and expressed in Jesus Christ and will recognize God, the end of their seeking, in Him."

from: http://www.oca.org/QA.asp?ID=191&SID=3

As Orthodox we are required to pray for the salvation of all... even, or perhaps especially, the most evil of men...

After all, Christ prayed for those who crucified Him and those who crucified Him includes you and me.

Posted by: Provoslavni at April 21, 2007 1:16 PM

Schmegel, also in every Orthodox Liturgy, the priest or deacon must pray for the civil authorities "that they may be strengthened in every good deed" regardless of whether they are Orthodox or not. This prayer may be for "the president, the armed forces, and the civil authorities" or similar words. We know the president and most soldiers are not Orthodox. In the UK, they pray for the queen and the Orthodox Churches in Jordan pray the same prayer for King Abdullah by name.

The litany also has prayers for "travellers by land or sea" without any limitation only to the Orthodox. I assume that even the writer of the article you linked above says these prayers during liturgy. Perhaps he should have paid attention to the words.

Posted by: Provoslavni at April 21, 2007 5:10 PM

Provoslavni - I'm very glad to hear that the doctrine I referred to is not the view of all Orthodox Christians.

The link I used I found in order to back up what I said. But what I said comes from conversations I've had with Russian Orthodox Christians. I've been told that the official Russian Orthodox Church (in Russia itself, not abroad) position is that it is forbidden to pray for non-Orthodox people.

As you know, the Russian Orthodox Church is by far the biggest Orthodox church, and not at all a small minority. I sincerely hope there are differences of opinion on this issue within it.

Posted by: schmegel at April 22, 2007 9:31 AM

Schmegel,

There's no doubt that among Orthodox, there are many who have retreated into a dead, even heretical, traditionalism. This is the result of seventy years of communist oppression. Fortunately a new generation of seminarians now have access to the actually writing of the ancient Church Fathers (suppressed by the Reds) and no longer have to rely on whispered memories of theology or feel the need to protect the Faith from anything outside the Church. As I wrote above, it is impossible to celebrate an Orthodox Divine Liturgy without praying for all.

Not a single saint or ancient Church Father would have denied the efficacy of praying for anyone. To say that any person, living or dead, is beyond God's Grace is to deny the sovereignty of God. We pray for everyone. It is up to our Lord how He answers those prayers.

Posted by: Provoslavni at April 22, 2007 4:05 PM