Thank you, Hugh, for another excellent commentary on what is being done and what will be done as Islam continues it destructive march across the world. Previously, you have commented on the dangers that cathedrals, museums, art work, statuary, face in Europe as Muslims take control. If events proceed as planned by the Muslims, and not planned for, by the Europeans, the losses of treasure and history will be enormous, and will probably begin in the next decade.

Posted by: maryrose at April 28, 2007 7:47 AM

You missed out one of the most iconic symbols of human civilization, the sphinx at Giza.

We are shown the image as a child and think of the broken nose as a result of time, decay and erosion.

As children we are often sheltered from the uglier side of humanity when we are taught history or any other subject, and it is as children that we are being treated today.

Posted by: BlowHammed at April 28, 2007 8:23 AM

Hugh, this is not exactly like purposeful destruction of the Bamiyan Buddhas, or Catholic churches. It's a damn dam. I think this time you are over the top. Do you think they are building a dam just to hide the pre-Islamic past? Let them build their dam, and let them have some electricity. I live in a part of the US where people's farms were taken and whole towns were flooded in order to bring modernity to a part of the country that in 1932 still had not recovered from the American Civil War. I know an elderly man who was born in a town that is now under 125 feet of water. You can drive US Highway 11W and see farm silos standing like lonely sentinels telling us that this was once a prosperous farm.

This time, Hugh you are wrong. How about a nuclear power plant instead of a dam?

Posted by: Pelayo at April 28, 2007 8:45 AM

Huge this only show you are a racist and bigot. The Great Pyminder of Egypt still exsit as well as the many Hindist and Budd temple in India still exsit from the time when muslim rule a great part of India. Get a life Huge. Muslim are winning in America while Israel is illegality trear down Islamic builting in Israel. There is now over 15 million muslim in america now. Read than book tittle
"Silent No More" by Paul Findley. Many America consider you and Robert as nothing more than hate monger for alwat attracking Islam. When FDR built Hooser Dam it destory ancient America Indian artifact also but the needed for drinking water and electrial power was also great. Pakistian and India where force by the World Bank to not harm the sousre of each nation river that start in the other country
or built dams to stop the flow of the river or change the flow of the river. All of Pakistian 400 nuclear weapons are now plutoium 239 based all ready,it only take a small fast bleeder reactor to do that.

Posted by: DefenderofIslam at April 28, 2007 11:17 AM

Huge there sill ancient temples in Egypt which where
know since Islam rule Egypt and Islamist scholar study then back then.

Posted by: DefenderofIslam at April 28, 2007 11:21 AM

DefenderofIslam posted:

"Huge this only show you are a racist and bigot. The Great Pyminder of Egypt still exsit as well as the many Hindist and Budd temple in India still exsit from the time when muslim rule a great part of India. "

They may still be there, but it's not for lack of trying..

"When king Al-Aziz Othman, son of [Saladdin] succeeded his father, he let himself be persuaded by some people from his Court, who were devoid of good sense, to demolish the pyramids. One started with the red pyramid, which is the third of the great pyramids, and the smallest. So the sultan sent sappers, miners and quarrymen, lead by some of the main officers and the first emirs of his Court and ordered them to destroy it. To carry out the orders they had received, they put up their camp near the pyramid. They brought there a large number of workmen from all around, and supported them at great cost. They stayed there for eight whole months [...], extracting one or two blocks each day, with a lot of difficulties and having exhausted their strength. Some pushed from above with levers while other workers pulled down with ropes and cables. When one of these stones would tumble down, it would make a lot of noise, which was heard from afar and shook the earth and caused the mountains to quake. In falling it would bury itself in the sand. It was then necessary to use great efforts to pull it out. Afterwards, grooves were chiselled into which wedges were driven to divide the blocks into several fragments. Then each piece was loaded on a wagon to pull it to the foot of the nearby mountain where it was thrown down.[...] This happened in the year 593 (i.e. 1196 A.D.)." (transl. SACY, Description de l'Egypte IX, 468).

@Pelayo

When the Aswan High Dam was built, many artifacts were moved out of the way in advance. You can have have a dam and artifacts too, if you care enough.

Posted by: freedomschool at April 28, 2007 11:54 AM

Pelayo,

Of course they can have their dam. But any civilized nation would invite armies of archeologists to come in and document or preserve as much of the ancient artifacts as possible before the dam was completed. This preservation clearly is not being done here, and we know why.

Posted by: Stendec at April 28, 2007 11:57 AM

Well going by other sources I have read Egyptian history was destroyed by Muslims when they came over. The pyramids had a smooth appearance of marble or granite that reflected the sun as some ancient witnesses have described that was recorded history. The surface of the pyramids probably held all the ancient secrets and maybe mysteries before the Muslims hacked away the material to build the interior of their temples.

That is one story and the other is the Alexandria library that was looted and the manuscripts of history burned to use a fuel by the new invaders or shall I say Muslim system, and remember what ever does not fit into Islam is irrelevant including people who don't believe the Koran and it's one rule for Muslims and another for non believers including historical evidence and art.

So in a way the damage was done and luckily the Europeans were able to excavate the hidden treasures that if anyone know of before hand would not have been made available in today's museums.

No one can move the pyramids and the ancient architecture even if they tried now and even if Muslims wanted to cover up an infidel ancient history the process of turning Egypt into money making tourist industry has halted the process, plus the world knows about them now. Any direct damage and destruction would be a seen as a shameful act, lucky the educated keep it going and discovering more.

This story I am not too sure about but does it show any plans of delay as they would in Europe?
If they find ancient history nowadays in a building site they know money can be made this way too. But the doubt is on the Muslim psyche do they care? Or is it just another victory over infidel history? The story is premature to comment, we will see if the Pakistan government might help preserve the history and if not then it's not surprising, maybe not a conspiracy to cover it up but the attitude being the same through out history and Islamic teachings.

Posted by: jesusisthelamb at April 28, 2007 12:13 PM

Defender of homicidism wrote that Hugh is a bigot, and a racist.What race are muslims? Hater? Who offers to slaughter infidels for daring to criticize Islam- jews, christians, buddhists...hmmmm. Let's see.... that's a tough one.

Ok, he's right, Islam DIDN'T destroy ALL the temples, and synogogues and such. Hugh you devil you. Well, ok actually

The fact that they ban them in Saudi Arabia, that they defile them in every nation where Islam comes, that they have murdered nonmuslems in EVERY nation where Islam arrives, that they want to and speak of only Islam being the authority, in lands where Islam has manbe 4 million defender of bs, not 15 million.
And by the way- since all it takes is that miserable shehada, there is no blah blah but blah blah, and blah blah is his messenger, said twice, heard by two lugnut muslims, that doesn't quite make the 1 billion muslims much to brag about.
Hater? The muslims walked into Hindu and buddhist India int eh 11th century and they gave the 12000 monks at the then largest religious university and the 40000 lay people who were studying ethics, morality, faith, as buddhist, one and one choice only. Convert to Islam, or die.

The buddhist monks said, 'take everything, you are the rulers, but we choose to remain buddhists.... and they were then all beheaded, and buddhism was then chased out of India and was the religion of Tibet, and in India, well.... it was beheaded.

So, Mr Defender of the homicidists- you're right- they have killed everyone, they just wish they could submit everyone.

Posted by: mgoldberg at April 28, 2007 12:50 PM

that should read.... 'they haven't killed everyone, they just wish they could submit everyone.

Posted by: mgoldberg at April 28, 2007 12:51 PM

To Pelayo,

I found about sites like these when i was reading about the Sindhi issue.

http://www.saveindus.org/

This expalins how the dam is not only destroying Sindhi culture symbols, but robbing all the ethnic Sindhis of resources and essentially leaving the province to die of thirst. The dam accounts for blatant disregard for the Sindhi peoples' basic needs as well as their thousand year old culture.

http://www.freesindh.org/

www.worldsindhicongress.org/

www.sindhibaloch.org/

These sites reveal the general attitutdes Pakis have towards their cultural minorities. The attitude is basically that of the Taliban; the Paki Military and leadership, as well as the millions of "Mohajirs", (descendents of Indian Muslim migrants to Pakiland in 194 who simply refused to share a nation with Kuffars of any kind), views any symbols of cultural heritage, other thsn mosques and Middel Eastern funded madrassas, as unfit to exist in their territory. Many of the ethnic Sindhis are adopting the same attitude towards ISlamic purists as the Afghan Hazara have, especially following the Taliban attacks on the Bamiyan statues, the Persian activists in Iran, the Jewish activists in Israel following the desecration of Jseph's tomb, the indians and CHinese in Malaysia, the Copts in Egypt and God knows how many others. Encouraging their resentments of pure Islamics is essential for Western strategy. Those who remain muslims are most likely to either leave Islam altogether, or, even if the majority of them don't, start demanding real "reformation" of islamic societies. And among those who are non muslim, they will continue to find further cause for all of them to unite as one agaisnt exapnding jihad.

And lastly, here's some background on how the Sindh got to be such a wasteland:

http://www.sindhiexodus.net/

Here, it is explained how the Sindh was ven up until the 20th century a cradle of Indian civilization, before the Paki "Punjabs" and the Mohajirs, who managed to fool the world into thinking they were just trying to escape "Hindu persecution", decided in their Islamic imperialism that Sindh needed to be a purely, 100% "muslim" state. That's how {akiland got all of Sindh, when, if the local peoples had their say, it would have all went to India.

Posted by: maxwell46&2 at April 28, 2007 1:07 PM

To Defender if islam,

"Huge this only show you are a racist and bigot. The Great Pyminder of Egypt still exsit as well as the many Hindist and Budd temple in India still exsit from the time when muslim rule a great part of India."

Right, and the Egyptian authorities left the pyramids intact because of their genuine love for the non-islamic pyramnids, not at all because of the gazillions of tourist dollars they bring in. Just like thye've been so respectful to symbols of Coptic civilization. Just like the Iranian leadership is so respectful of Persian culture, in Algeria they're so repsectful of Amazigh culture, in Pakiland, they're so respectful of Hindu/Sindhi/Baloch culture, in Iraq they're so respectful of Assyrian culture and in Malaysia they're so respectful of Indian/Chinese culture.

PLEASE, just for once in your whole life give the world a break, and start showing an ounce of relaism.

And do you really think the Hindu/Buddhist civilizations survived in India because of the benevolence of muslim leaders or because of how hard they fought to keep their culutre alive in spite or militant islam. Again, would you get real for once?

Posted by: maxwell46&2 at April 28, 2007 1:15 PM

Okay people, how does one move cave writings. Move the cave? Speaking of caves, I suggest a trip to Nickajack cave below Chattanooga, go see the remnants of a Cherokee habitation; you'll need SCUBA gear.

There are countless cemeteries in East Tennesse under water or a shopping center, excuse me If I yawn.

Posted by: Pelayo at April 28, 2007 1:41 PM

Maxwell46&2, the subject of the article was the destruction of ancient historical sites, and I based my comments on that subject. If there is another issue dealing with impact on the living, then we can discuss that in another thread.

Posted by: Pelayo at April 28, 2007 1:52 PM

To Pelayo,

I do realize that. The reason I brought up the subject of the dam's effect on the living standards of the people is to drive home the poin tthat it is quite clearly meant to be a wanton act of disrespect; the facts that the dam is destroying all these invaluable artifacts and along with it ruining the living conditions of millions of local inhabitants, to the point that they could literally die off of thirst, should be taken together to underscore the point that this is one more of countless examples of how Islamic leaderships continue to treat their subjects as basically chattel, not only when they are of a different religion but even when their are of a different ethnicity and cultural heritage and wish to embrace their un-islamic customs. And the Western nations simply cannot claim they are taking the threat of global jihadists seriously enough until they are mopping the floor with countries like Pakiland for pulling s**t like this with their people.

Posted by: maxwell46&2 at April 28, 2007 2:48 PM

Oh.... defender of Homicidism. You wrote about the benign Islam, that doesn't harm others artifacts. Well they slaughter each other like flies... so infidels and artifacts are worthless to muslims.

Do I have to go to history and squeeze stuff out...?
No... just this hour in Iraq, the fine religion of pieces did this...

"Explosion Near Shrine in Iraq Kills 55
Email this Story

Apr 28, 12:47 PM (ET)

By SAMEER N. YACOUB

(AP) In this photo released by U.S. Army, Capt. Brian Slotnick, a native of Tom's River, New Jersey, and...
Full Image

BAGHDAD (AP) - A parked car exploded Saturday near one of Shiite Islam's holiest shrines in the city of Karbala as people were headed to the area for evening prayers, killing 55 people and wounding dozens, officials said.

The explosion took place in a crowded commercial area near the Imam Hussein shrine in Karbala, 50 miles south of Baghdad, officials said. At least 55 people were killed and 70 wounded, said Salim Kazim, the head of the Karbala health department.

A car bomb exploded in the same area on April 14, killing 47 and wounding 224.

Saturday's explosion occurred a few hundred yards from the Imam Abbas shrine, setting several cars on fire and causing chaos. The explosion took place as the streets were filled with people heading for evening prayers at the Abbas shrine and the adjacent Imam Hussein shrine, two of Iraq's holiest Shiite sites.

An angry crowd gathered after the explosion, many of them searching frantically for missing relatives. Some threw stones at the police, accusing them of failing to protect the people.

Police fired weapons in the air to disperse onlookers.

Iraqi television showed a huge plume of black smoke rising from the street as ambulances rushed to retrieve the wounded. One man carried the charred body of a small girl as he ran.

On Friday, a suicide truck bomber attacked the home of a city police chief in the Sunni insurgent stronghold of Anbar province, killing nine Iraqi security forces and six civilians, the U.S. military said Saturday. Police chief Hamid Ibrahim al-Numrawi and his family escaped injury after Iraqi forces opened fire on the truck before it reached the concrete barrier outside the home in Hit, 85 miles west of Baghdad.

Posted by: mgoldberg at April 28, 2007 2:56 PM

Seems fairly uncontroversial to me.

Normal practice when a gov't is about to put up a public works project in a area of archeological importance is to rush in to pull out as much as possible before the destruction begins.

Sometimes the project is cancelled altogether, sometimes not, gov't people being what they are.

But the general idea is to try to preserve something out of respect for study and knowledge.

No evidence presented here indicates that the Pak gov't is making even token attempts to preserve anything.

And that is consistent with the general mohammedan contempt for foreign art, representative art and secular learning that has kept them in the dark ages for so long.

=============

It's a question of basic philosophical outlook -- and is much like other countries that want western technology while having nothing to do with the freedom of thought that gives birth to science and technology.

They want some electricity, and no doubt need it, but are incapable of understanding the connection between having electricity and studying the outside world.

They see only the physical.

Which is a general irony about primitive mystics. They spend their lives dreaming about the supernatural and supposedly mysterious and subtle -- but when it comes to day-to-day living they can see nothing but the most obvious physical realities, and that in only the coarsest of terms.

Primitive philosophy = brutal action.

==================

And yes, I think that attributing the attitude to the mohammedan scriptural prohibition against statuary is directly relevant and appropriate.

It is notable that there are historical precedents that are well known.

During and following the fall of Rome, the early Christians, in the great cities of the Roman empire, practicing a religion that emphasized the ascetic and de-emphasized sex made a point of defacing the statues of the pagan gods, and most particularly of breaking off the penises, breasts and faces -- a practice that would have horrified Christians of later eras who had learned a respect for historical study and art.

The difference is that there is not, to the best of my knowledge, a doctrinal opposition to representational art anywhere in the formal Christian canon, it was a matter of outlook -- whereas it is in the formal canon of mohammedanism.

The Christians had a way out. The mohammedans don't, and will have to invent one.

I think Hugh is on to something here.

Posted by: joeblough at April 28, 2007 4:34 PM

This last post will most likely not be seen - here goes anyway.

The laws that govern archeological discoveries during construction are relatively new, enacted in the late 1970s. Before these laws were passed, a developer who owned the land also owned whatever was in the dirt. If they were to discover an ancient American aboriginal village, for example, it was bulldozed. That was life before we became all touchy-feely about the environment.

There are countless architectural "treasures" under water in the US; I just cannot get worked up over a dam in the Indus Valley

Posted by: Pelayo at April 28, 2007 9:38 PM

Defenderofislam,
Here, check out this link. You might want to know what the muslim invaders did in India.

http://voiceofdharma.com/books/siii/ch6.htm

I have more links and info if you are interested in the truth.

Posted by: arjun.sevak at April 29, 2007 2:02 AM

The Muslim waqf in Jerusalem has been destroying parts of the ancient Temple Mount in Jerusalem since 1996, parts that were mainly below the surface and had been preserved even construction of the al-Aqsa mosque and the Dome of the Rock. The Israel govt is under international pressure not to interfere with the waqf's destruction of the ancient Jewish heritage.

In Gaza, during the 19 years of Egyptian occupation [1948 to 1967], two important ancient Jewish artifacts were destroyed partially or wholly.
1-- a mosaic showing David with a harp. We know that the figure represents David on account of a Hebrew inscription next to the face with the name David in Hebrew. This mosaic was dug up in the early 1960s, under Egyptian occupation, and a photo was made of it. Curiously, the Hebrew inscription was not damaged but the face was destroyed, apparently following the Quranic ban on representing the human face. The mosaic is now in Israeli hands and a copy is on display in the Israel Museum, the face having been reconstructed on the basis of the photograph.
2-- in the Great Mosque of Gaza, originally a Crusader church, explorers found a stone column with an inscription in Hebrew and Greek letters, in the Hebrew, Aramaic, and Greek languages. The inscription was high up on the column and, I believe, upside down. Apparently, the column was from an ancient synagogue in Gaza, and had been reused by Crusaders in building the church. The inscription was published many years ago, which alerted the Muslim authorities controlling the mosque that they had something of the kufar in the mosque. Under the Egyptian occupation, they rubbed out the inscription. On this see, Hershel Shanks, Judaism in Stone.

Posted by: Eliyahu at April 29, 2007 6:45 AM

But I still think museums were around long before registration laws and also general attitudes with people in a democracy society. Even if some stories can be told the West has always been fascinated in science and history and not sure if some countries care and mainly due to attitudes taught in being separated to the rest of other cultures in the world or the past as if it's second rate. Some landowners in the old America probably did some destruction work but I best for every one that did there were preservation societies that took history seriously and not persuaded not to because of their culture.

Posted by: jesusisthelamb at April 29, 2007 2:54 PM

The Great Library wasnot destory by the muslim but by the christian in the 4th century by than Bispic who fear the ancient knowlege was anti-christian. The christian book burner went to work burning books
and the christian hit squad went to work murdering pagon priests and scholars includeing than framous woman scholar who defeat the bispic in a detate.
When the muslim conquest Egypt they didnot have any plan to destoy the library.That was than myth inverted by the christian to lay the blame at the muslim. A night than fire broke out in the library mostly likely than lit candle fell down unnotice than start to burn the written material. The muslim and the scholar ran inside the burning builting to put out the fire and to save inportence worked on math, science and history and medine but plays written by greek playwriter where not inportion at all. The Caph order than investion into the fire and the moslim general was clear of all wrong doing as none of the people both christian and moslim around him at the time state that the remark that some christian claim to make where never said by him as those christian where never there to hear them. The ruin pyramids in egypt as there are afew hundred pyramids built
most of then where rod of builting material by Ramie the Great for his own builting projects.
I finish reading abook about the Scientific Miracles in the Holy Qur'an about matter that modern science is only learning was said in the Holy Qur'an and modern scienist where amaze that these finding where written in the Qur'an to prove that God was the auther of the Qur'an over 1400 year ago a few scienist convert to Islam.

Posted by: DefenderofIslam at April 30, 2007 4:58 AM

Defenderofislam,
Kindly continue to enlighten us infidels. I really enjoy your eloquent postings. Maybe I am a potential convert. :)

Posted by: arjun.sevak at May 1, 2007 3:11 AM