Muslim immigration is proving to have some positive aspects! After all the terrorism, intimidation, security problems, etc. it is good to see there are benefits. Information flows too freely for a growing ex-Muslim movement to be hidden from the skeptical millions, or hundreds of millions, living in the Islamic world. I hope these courageous people, organized now in both Germany and Netherlands, get the protection they are entitled to from their governments. Then again, maybe the EU will enforce group identity. I wouldn't put it past 'em.

Posted by: Quijybo at May 3, 2007 2:46 PM

Greetings in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God Who is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.

Oh that these brave people (who have discovered they actually can follow reason and logic and thus determine the non-existent benefit of islam) would spark a blaze all over the world of muslims breaking free from this satanic cult.

I don't want muslims to die--I want them to live, and live more abundantly. Where the spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.

Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free.

Posted by: Stand fast in the liberty at May 3, 2007 2:50 PM

A few apostates don't make up for the great and growing threat from the majority of the unassimilatable members of the Muslim Ummah who are flooding into the West, dogmatically bent on the slo-Mo overthrown of all infidel governments.

I'd rather have such apostates working back in Muslim lands to reform Islam from within.

By allowing any followers of the pedophile "prophet" to enter the West - in the wan hope that three or four will leave the killer cult- we guarantee that most will be working for the soft Jihad. (If not the hard, violent version.)

Infil-traitors, not real immigrants.

One teaspoon of honey in a bottle of cyanide hardly makes for a good balance.

Posted by: profitsbeard at May 3, 2007 3:34 PM

Either Islam is the truth, or it is a lie. It is compassionate and merciful or it is hateful and ruthless. We all know the answer. The truth has a way of rising to the top. We are seeing the beginning of this process with these groups, not to mention the many Muslims who have quietly abandoned their religious since they have left the Islamic world.

I maintain that the most dangerous threat to Islam's hold over its adherents minds is ex-Muslims, and for now the only place they can express themselves is the west. Yes, there are flaws with this. Ex-Muslims are under threat even here, but at least not legal threat.

When entire nations are lost to madness, it might not be enough to bottle them up. Letting in a little light from the free world can make a difference, one we cannot even conceive of.

Posted by: Quijybo at May 3, 2007 3:55 PM

Not a bad idea to create a network of such alliances (as I am sure is already loosely taking place -- but I mean deliberately, and with some carefully guarded structures and precautions) around the world. Let Islamists know the consequences of their actions -- driving many peaceloving muslims from their faith because of the exposure of the violent core -- by giving these groups a public profile and ex-muslims a unified voice (protecting their anonymity, of course).

I would encourage ex-muslims who drop in here to resolve to form, encourage, support, and participate in such a movement, and work to increase the exposure and unity of those groups that have already begun to work in this direction.

Here is one place to begin. But ultimately the movement should pull it's threads together, work toward common goals, pool resources and present a common front. Those of us in common cause with you but not, ourselves, ex-muslims, will be glad to cheer and support you in whatever way we can.

Posted by: Archimedes2 at May 3, 2007 3:59 PM

Islam is so weak that even the inept could see through it. Thats why apostates exist. They saw through it. Islam cant survive rapid and massive abandonment, so it survives on threats and the carrying out of threats. 'The only way out of here is feet first'...To keep believers in line, Allah/Mohammad made it clear that only those believers, who towed the mark would ger into heaven, and even then, he would decide who got in, and who did not. To every muslim he made death the penalry for abandonment, apostasy, even on intellectual levels. The religeous intellect is only used for furthering Allahs cause, any other use is apostacy.

Posted by: duh_swami at May 3, 2007 5:15 PM

And that, of course, follows the orders of Muhammad himself: baddala deenahu faqtuhu -- "If anyone changes his religion, kill him" (Bukhari 9.84.57).

That darned Mohammed was an organizational genius. He personally conceived, designed, built, and launched the ultimate Self-Perpetuation Machine. Like it or not, it is still with us, all these 1,375 years later.

* 33:21 ** 33:21 ** 33:21 ** 33:21 ** 33:21 ** 33:21 ** 33:21 ** 33:21 ** 33:21 ** 33:21 *

He knew how to recruit, how to control, how to mobilize, how to expand and, yes, as seen in Bukhari 9.84.56, how to retain.

Force on all fronts, against everyone, all the time.

Posted by: Alarmed Pig Farmer at May 3, 2007 6:13 PM

I've always thought that it is the duty of Christians of all persuasions to spread Christianity among the infidel Muslim relentlesly. Why aren't they doing their duty around every Muslim neighborhood in America?

Posted by: kiko at May 3, 2007 6:18 PM

I am glad they are organizing and supporting each other and creating a new community.

On top of death threats, and the fear that has been drummed into you all of your life, it can be a painful process to realize that your religion doesn't make sense and isn't all it's cracked up to be. It can be traumatic to leave the religion you grew up in, the religion of your family and community.

More power to them.

Posted by: Josephine at May 3, 2007 6:24 PM

This seems to be a positive development for Holland. What role, if any, did Ayan Hirsi Ali have in either forming the party or providing the inspiration to the young people who are organizing the movement? Her name isn't mentioned, but surely her experience was a factor with the young ex-Muslims.

Posted by: maryrose at May 3, 2007 7:24 PM

"Why aren't they doing their duty around every Muslim neighborhood in America?" posted by kiko

Well, ya know Kiko, it's a dangerous thing going around spreading Jesus' word amongst Mohammedans. Them creatures seem to pull their sharp knives out when they get riled up by other religions.

It is not the duty of Christians to commit "Suicide by Mohammedan."

Posted by: Pelayo at May 3, 2007 8:37 PM

You must read it till the end:

"Sarkozy plays the race card - and our establishment cheers"

I haven't seen the most brilliant example of dhimmitude for a long time. Just some quotes:

"... Western Europe is becoming increasingly diverce ... The ability of our societies to embrace all races and cultures will be crucial to their future stability, security and success. ... One of the great themes of postwar Europe has been immigration from the developing world. It has transformed almost exclusively white coutnries into increasingly multiracial and mulitcultural societiees. It has been ... liberating and educative."

Posted by: vn at May 3, 2007 9:13 PM

This is the most dangerous threat to Islamists, that is, a growing, educated group who developed from the brainwashed, spiritual jail cell of Mohammed, personally aware of the methods and paths of human abuse. Apostates are the boogeymen of Islam and as much as I admire the perceptions of Robert and Hugh, they do not have the clarity of Ali Sina or Hirsi Ali and I'm sure the sting to the Islamists. They can pass off Robert and Hugh as "hate mongers of islam" but they can't pin the same tag on apostates. This is good news for Holland.
Sometimes in my daily reading of JW, it can get awfully depressing. It would be wonderful to have at least one item every day that shows people actually doing something against Global Jihad. This is good news for Holland and for all of us.

Posted by: Briars at May 3, 2007 10:05 PM

Maybe there is something to all of our societies and our influence. The other day we read an article that the muslim leaders were telling muslims that they were not claiming victimhood enough, or very well. Well, could it be that we are seeing many muslims rejecting all of their sharia law and liking our society?

I don't know. There is a huge radical crowd with even more 'moderates' that do absolutely nothing to stop the radicals. And we still have a HUGE!!! influence of saudi arabia's radical wahabbist monies being thrown around in our country with the left more than happy to go along with the saudi's expectations of appeasement by allowing censorship if anything showing islam in a bad light and bashing Christians and Jews. More madrassas and mosques are being built that are backed by saudi monies also and clerics are imported, as they are in Europe, that are radical.

I don't know what will happen. What we might be seeing are a few souls who are seeing the light but not enough to stop the future violence we will face if we do nothing to stop the infiltration of islam into our countries. I don't like saying 'I hope' because so many other people have sat back and let muslims have their way while doing nothing and saying 'I hope that things will change...'. And then... they are dhimmi in their own country and live in fear of snipers, bombs, torture and death.

We need to stop viewing islam as a religion and put a halt on foreign monies/bribes and imported clerics. And to look at mosques and madrassas as political training grounds for future jihadists. It is all in the koran.

And while even my thought of what we need to do might be lacking - we continually fight the left wing in our country that let muslims and their using our laws against us keep making inroads.

I was sickened when a muslim was elected into Congress. In other countries that are now full of atrocious violence also started out with 'moderates' making gains in their governments and using their laws against them. And this elected Congressman taking the oath of office on a koran - which has no 10 commandments, nothing in it except to either convert, kill or make us into dhimmi while telling them they are superior - made me ill. Jefferson had that koran because he wanted to find out what was up with the muslims that were waging jihad during his time along the barbary coast - and he found out the same thing all the people on this board know
(except 1-2 muslims who peruse these boards to spew their crud).

Posted by: R_not at May 3, 2007 10:06 PM

Kiko:
The more important duty of the Christian right now is to wake up fellow Christians to the threat within Islam perpetuated by a narcissist theology absorbed by psychological cripples who manifest its inspiration into murder and enslavement of those who do not share in the psychosis. Actually, all unbelievers now have this duty and not just Christians.

Posted by: Briars at May 3, 2007 10:13 PM

To kiko - "Why aren't they [Christians] doing their duty around every Muslim neighborhood in America?" In fact, not only in America but elsewhere, the Christians are probably doing more than you know. Look up Bp Patrick Sookhdeo, and Lamin Sanneh - both high-profile ex-Muslims, now Christians. Check out the '30 Days' website and explore . But how much space is our MSM going to give to - say - a few baptisms in St Bloggs's? Will they ever even hear about it?

The conversions are happening, quietly, in Australia and even so-called post-Christian Eurabia, so I'll bet they're happening in USA and Canada too. I don't know at what rate. I do know that in the church I used to attend, in a major city, I witnessed the baptism of a young Iranian student, a former Muslim. I know that an Indian-Australian that I knew, said there was a steady trickle of conversions from out of the Indian Muslim community here. Spencer's 'Myth of Islamic Tolerance' has a couple of interesting asides - on p. 301, an article from Denmark refers to "one Kurdish convert to Christianity, who went public to explain why she had changed religion, felt the need to hide her face and conceal her identity, fearing for her life" [this woman converted, it appears, IN DENMARK...that godless PC Denmark the pundits like to talk about - so clearly SOMEONE in the Danish church is 'on the job']. Then a note on p. 442 mentions a French book by Jean-Marie Gaudeul, "Appeles par le Christ, ils viennent de l'Islam". 1991 (i.e. 'Called by Christ, They Come Out of Islam') - enough of them to write a book about.

Despite the risks to the evangelists, despite the danger to 'apostates' even here in the Westernised world, the word is getting across and Muslims are responding.

PS - More on topic: heartening news, this, of a committee of young 'apostates'. They HAVE to support each other - much harder to 'pick off' a whole group than just one person alone. And our authorities need to be be willing to protect them, once their bona fides are clear.

Posted by: dumbledoresarmy at May 3, 2007 10:35 PM

Shows how weak Islam is if its obligated to kill Muslims who leave the death cult.

Posted by: Elric66 at May 3, 2007 10:56 PM

No doubt about it... Muslims are seeing the light. Some convert to become Christian, some just realize that in the USA they are free to believe in nothing if you choose. Better to have no God then to be a slave to Allah the moon god.

Posted by: Joe Schmoe USA at May 4, 2007 2:42 AM

"What role, if any, did Ayan Hirsi Ali have in either forming the party or providing the inspiration to the young people who are organizing the movement? Her name isn't mentioned, but surely her experience was a factor with the young ex-Muslims."
-from above-

In an interview for Dutch television, the young man that started this initiative stated that he admired Ayaan Hirsi Ali.
By the way, Ehsan Jami was a member of the 'Young Socialists', a radical left wing group. The threw him out for being too fanatical.
In an interview with a young muslima (the 'So well integrated with her hip clothes and glasses, she speaks Dutch so fluently, she is such a great rolemodel'-type), this woman stated that this committee was not necessary, there was freedom in Islam. In this taqqiya style manner she further said that this committee was a way to deliberately create tension between muslims and non-muslims.
The sad part of the whole thing is that the talkshow-hosts listened to this crap with a straight face, as if some kind of great wisdom was revealed by this woman.
But then again, it's dutch public television, what can one expect?

Posted by: Tristan Weitenberg at May 4, 2007 4:20 AM

Nobody in his right mind should listen to any Muslim woman.

After all, they are only worth half of a man and they need four men to witness that they have been raped. In Muslim society they are mere chattel, what is is their value to us?

Anyone who has been wacked into hijab and burka from an early age and married off to a man who is 40 years older is hardly a credible source for western enlightenment, logical thinking and reason.

Let them play the victim and let them wince and whine,
but dosn't take them seriously. They don't deserve it!

And no: They should not be allowed to join our military:

http://sheikyermami.com/2007/05/04/australia-young-muslims-urged-to-enlist/

Posted by: sheik yer'mami at May 4, 2007 5:00 AM

For info on training for witnessing the Christian faith to moslems, see www.crescentproject.org.

I intend to be at one of the seminars listed for this year.

Posted by: eve_anne_gelical at May 4, 2007 10:12 AM