no separation of church and state here....

Posted by: exsgtbrown at May 30, 2007 7:50 AM

During the Cold War Russian dissidents would say to visiting foreigners:

"Yes, the Soviet Union is indeed vast. You can go 3,000 miles up and down, and 6,000 miles across. But what happens when you come to the end of those 3,000 miles down? Or those 6,000 miles across? You still can't get out. You still are stuck."

That is Islam. You can't get out. You are not allowed the mental freedom to leave. If Islam did not promote the habit of mental submission, severe limits on artistic expression, hatred of, and war-making upon Infidels, the deliberate infliction of a state of permanent humiliation, degradation, and physical insecurity on Infidels, if it did none of those awful things, but only -- only -- prevented those born into Islam from leaving Islam, that alone would entitle us to see it as a totalitarian and cruel belief-system, and to regard it with permanent wariness and worry.

Posted by: Hugh at May 30, 2007 8:14 AM

no more foreign aid to Malaysia...not one more dime...

Posted by: exsgtbrown at May 30, 2007 8:16 AM

But!But!But! there is NO compulsion in Islam. Surely this must be some mistake.

Posted by: Realist at May 30, 2007 8:20 AM

"You can't at whim and fancy convert from one religion to another," Ahmad Fairuz said.

Unless that whim and fancy is to convert TO Islam.

What about if Ms. Joy is not converting on a 'whim or fancy' but because of a rational realisation that Islam is garbage?

Posted by: Tziona at May 30, 2007 9:15 AM

Islam: the Roach Motel of religions.

(You can check in, but you can never check out... unless it's the hard way.)

Any 'faith' that has to kill to stay in business deserves a bankruptcy in the numbers of believers to match its moral bankruptcy.

Posted by: profitsbeard at May 30, 2007 9:19 AM

"You can't at whim and fancy convert from one religion to another," Ahmad Fairuz said.

Sure you can my dear Ahmad--and my fancy is to do everything in my power to oppose your filthy little death cult excuse for a religion.

ISLAM = NAZISM

Posted by: THE ALLIES SHALL WIN at May 30, 2007 10:09 AM

This ruling again proves that the body count of Muslims throughout the world should always be suspect. In any statistic mentioned in reference to Islamic numbers and percentages, there should be an asterisk behind the number, thus reminding readers that the number is not reliable because of the universal Muslim policy of violence against adherents who wish to leave Islam. I suspect that even the bearded boy wonder of Osama's, Adam Gahdan, has entertained thoughts of leaving those cold mountains and returning to his surfboard in warm, sunny California.

Posted by: maryrose at May 30, 2007 10:36 AM

Sharia Court's ruling on your life. I feel like making a Molotov cocktail.

Posted by: Ruebacca at May 30, 2007 10:36 AM

Adam Gahdan will never know happiness...

Posted by: exsgtbrown at May 30, 2007 10:43 AM

Yes, that's right Chief Justice, 17 years of determined thoughts and actions to leave Islam are just 'whim and fancy'. I guess that quote really sums up Malaysia in a nutshell - if that's the 'thinking' of Malaysia's top judge then you've really got to wonder what basement level of intelligence their lower court judges are working at.

It is time for Western countries to introduce economic sanctions against countries implementing Sharia (such as Malaysia).

Where is Condi Rice on this? And when are the Democrats in Congress going to introduce legislation restricting imports from Malaysia unless they remove Sharia?

Posted by: veil416 at May 30, 2007 11:14 AM

This issue is the most important one of all. Just being allowed to opt out of Islam will change so many people's lives. In this modern world, it is very hard for even the most tyrannical countries to keep ideas out. Here, like cartoon rage, is another issue that the leaders in western nations are just too stupid to take up.

Posted by: Quijybo at May 30, 2007 12:41 PM

Says alot about Islam if it doesnt allow people to leave.

Posted by: Elric66 at May 30, 2007 1:01 PM

ISLAM: Roaches get in, but they don't get out.

Posted by: Miss_Anthrope at May 30, 2007 4:48 PM

What is so moderate about Malaysia? Folks should be allowed to change their religion if they want to. Why are muslims so insecure about people who leave Islam?

Posted by: callmeinfidel at May 30, 2007 5:36 PM

Islam's just about the same as getting infected with HIV - the only way out is death and it spreads through unprotected sex.

This verdict was passed by the country's secular, supreme court. It's just another political verdict by them. The courts have been controlled by the government since the then prime minister fired the last independent Chief Justice and decided to play the Islamic trump card to cover up the corruption in the government. Worked like a charm. Tell the Muslims that you are working for Islam and their brains cease to function. Doesn't matter what you do if you just say it's for Islam. Now that the beast has been unleashed, seems like there's no way to contain it.

Before the 80s, Malaysia really seemed like a model state where secularism and Islam could thrive. You could see Muslim girls without their head dresses and in miniskirts. People from all races and religions eating together at a restaurant. All that is but a distant memory now, hijacked by Islam. Now, you have people coming out blaming women for being raped because they are not covered up, even the hairy legs of other men seem to cause Muslim men to get horny! I'm not joking, this is what the Muslims there say and in fact, teenagers and adult non-Muslims are forced to wear long pants in schools and universities because of this.

I can imagine that a riot would probably have occured if the outcome of the trial was otherwise.

'Malaysia's highest court has rejected a Muslim convert's six-year battle to be legally recognised as a Christian.' She converted 17 years ago.

"You can't at whim and fancy convert from one religion to another" Says everything that needs to be said about Islam.

Posted by: saynotoislam at May 30, 2007 6:05 PM

He must have been foolish enough to really believe that verse in the Qur'an about "no compulsion in religion".

Posted by: Timur at May 30, 2007 6:12 PM

What disturbs me most about stories like this is that they will not reported in the MSM to any real extent. But when the pope or a bishop merely exhorts Catholics to follow their Faith, the MSM will play it up as though there was no difference between Islam's physical coercion and the Church's exhortations to members who are voluntarily members of that Faith.

Posted by: Deacon John M. Bresnahan at May 30, 2007 7:21 PM

This is what we're up against. This, and the enablers of it in the west who will not be honest about what Islam means to believers and non-believers both.

Posted by: alexon at May 30, 2007 9:51 PM

what a pathetic, nasty, faith.

Posted by: alexon at May 30, 2007 9:53 PM

This may be a great opportunity for the Malaysian Christian Church that has Azlina Jailani/Lina Joy as its most famous member...

They should register themselves as a mosque with Lina as their spokeswoman. In their statement they will declare that the court is right. As Malays, they ARE Muslims.

They are Muslims who believe that Jesus Crist is the Divine Son of God.

They are Muslims who worship one God as perfect Trinity.

They are Muslims who are baptized in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

They are Muslims who believe that the Old Testament and New Testament is the uncorrupted Word of God.

They are Muslims who consume the Divine body and blood of Christ in the Eucharist.

The are Muslims who reject polygamy, hijab, and Sharia.

They are Muslims who eat pork.

They are Muslims who willname thier Children only names such as Paul, James, Augustine, Francis, John, Felicia, etc. but absolutely NEVER Muhammed or any of its forms.

They are Muslims who support Jews, Christians, Hindus, Buddhists and any other group fighting against jihad.

They are Muslims who reject the Quran and consider Muhammed to be a demon-possessed psychopath who is now in Hell.

Yes they are all these things but the Malaysian government has legally given them the status of Muslims and therefore must register them as a mosque. Think about it... We'll finally have real reform in Islam and now every time Catholics or other Christians want to build a new "mosque" they can't be denied a permit.

Posted by: Provoslavni at May 30, 2007 11:12 PM

"You can't at whim and fancy convert from one religion to another," Ahmad Fairuz said.

Tell THAT to the moslems who are busy recruiting guillible Westerners into their cult-o-death...

Posted by: Allahfanculo at May 31, 2007 12:25 AM

no more foreign aid to Malaysia...not one more dime...
Posted by: exsgtbrown

What could possibly be more cogent than this statement?

Anyone got any idea HOW VERY HARD it is to file a tax return these days...??!!!!!

Posted by: Allahfanculo at May 31, 2007 12:27 AM

I for one don’t give a hoot about this Azalina binti Jailani if she so wants to be a Kaffir. It’s her life ; it’s her soul.

Why should I bother about one apostate when we have millions of other people embracing Islam by the day all over the world?

Here in Malaysia, we have exemplary Muslim converts who are worth so much more to me as a fellow Muslim than worry about Lina Joy, who wants to apostate herself from the Mercy of God?

Lina Joy can go fly kite as far as I am concerned! We don’t need hypocrites and munafiqs in Islam , bringing God’s Faith into question and disrepute! Good riddance I say!

Prime Minister Dato Seri Abdullah Hj Ahmad Badawi spoke so wisely ‘if Malaysia is truly intolerant of Christians, there will be no more Christians allowed to be here in this land!’

Those of you living outside Malaysia and have yet to set foot here in our land, please do us a favor.

Stop assuming anything about how things are over here in Malaysia and do not make up your minds just based upon one or two biased Malaysians blog postings or hearsay.

Lina Joy is just one isolated case of an individual who went about her affairs in the wrong manner and screwed herself in the judicial process.

We all know that there are many cases of similar apostates who have emigrated and settled down abroad with no fanfare in the media and press.

If you do come to visit us here in Malaysia, take a drive around and count the number of churches you can see.

Don’t forget to stop by at Batu Caves and see the largest statue of the Hindu deity ‘Lord Muruga’ which towers above all the surrounding areas. Go take a tour of the Kek Lok Si Temple in Ayer Itam , Penang and see if we are really intolerant of all the pagodas and temples plus another humongous statue of the ‘Goddess of Mercy -Kuan Yin’ Taoist Chinese complex straddling the foothills of this ‘intolerant’ nation.

We may not be perfect but when it comes to religious harmony and tolerance, we are so much better than many other countries of the world, including those of you in the USA, UK, and the entire European countries!

As for those of you here in Malaysia who love saying that this nation is all nuts, go take off to where you feel will lay down the red carpet for you and embrace you will so much love, it’s gonna ooze all over you!

All the best to you and have a nice day!

Posted by: meyour at June 1, 2007 3:35 PM

Stand together Christians! The deception of Islam is fading. Unite under the banner of Christ, and pray for the strengthening of the communion of God's saints through brotherhood and kindness, so that we may know each other by our fruits. Be aware of the deceiver and stand fast in our faith. Pray for the true conversion of the muslim infidels, so that they may know God through Jesus Christ, our risen Lord. Fear not, for we know the end of the story as declared in Holy Scriptures! God will cast the beast and his minions into the firey pit for eternity. His holy name is Emmanuel, God is with us!

Posted by: Triphammer at June 1, 2007 9:28 PM

Stand together Christians! The deception of Islam is fading. Unite under the banner of Christ, and pray for the strengthening of the communion of God's saints through brotherhood and kindness, so that we may know each other by our fruits. Be aware of the deceiver and stand fast in our faith. Pray for the true conversion of the muslim infidels, so that they may know God through Jesus Christ, our risen Lord. Fear not, for we know the end of the story as declared in Holy Scriptures! God will cast the beast and his minions into the firey pit for eternity. His holy name is Emmanuel, God is with us!

Posted by: Triphammer at June 1, 2007 9:28 PM

Stand together Christians! The deception of Islam is fading. Unite under the banner of Christ, and pray for the strengthening of the communion of God's saints through brotherhood and kindness, so that we may know each other by our fruits. Be aware of the deceiver and stand fast in our faith. Pray for the true conversion of the muslim infidels, so that they may know God through Jesus Christ, our risen Lord. Fear not, for we know the end of the story as declared in Holy Scriptures! God will cast the beast and his minions into the firey pit for eternity. His holy name is Emmanuel, God is with us!

Posted by: Triphammer at June 1, 2007 9:28 PM

Meyour,

If most Muslims had your attitude and eloquence in defence of Islam, there would be harmony between us. Unfortunately, you are in a minority among Malay Muslims as Lina Joy's case clearly shows. The croud that shouted in approval when a judge, representing the power of your government, denied Lina her religious freedom proves that your attitude is not that of those who control your government, especially your courts.

Your post shows that you take your religion seriously as a religion and that you truly belief that Islam is the correct path to obeying God. As a Christian, I believe just as strongly that Jesus Christ is y Salvation. However, I count many devout Muslims like yourself as friends.

The problem is that many (probably most)Muslims see Islam as a political ideology as much as a faith. Clearly the judge and the crowd in Lina's case did so. Thus they rely on the force of Sharia and the violence of jihad to spread and maintain Islam, while people like myself believe that if a religion is true, it can stand on its own merits without compulsion or force.

Yes, I freely admit that we Christians have not always lived up to that ideal but our Faith is strongest when it does not rely on political power. It is my hope that Muslims like yourself can be an influence among those of your people to treat Islam as a religion and not as an ideology. After all, it truly is a blasphemy to reduce our Creator to a political programme.

Posted by: Provoslavni at June 2, 2007 12:38 AM

Provoslavni,

I understand what you are trying to say and from what you see and read from media, I don't blame you to feel the way you are feeling right now toward malaysian malay (muslim).

Allow me to correct few points.

Minority of malaysia muslim are actually like me. What you see on media, are actually the minority communities.

Majority of us here are average modern muslim, those muslim extremist are very few and most of them do not actually live within the vicinity (city center).

I dare to say half of the crowd at court were no other than youngsters loitering around with nothing to do, and these youngster are not so called good muslim devotees. These group of people were there coz everybody were there and being in a peaceful country, it is not often you get to see such a big crowd. They were looking for opportunity to wrack havoc and having fun, just like what they did many years ago when our country had a big court case involving a deputy prime minister.

Malays here are divided into 2 political group, one being the majority 80% are pro government and the other 20% are opposition party, and this opposition party are using Islam as their political agenda. These 20% malay took advantage of cases like Lina Joy to condemn the government and starting a riot.

Majority of malaysian blogger are non muslim, thus news were twisted to give islam bad name. In Lina Joy case, it was her fault for not following the right procedures in getting what she wanted. Our country have rules and procedures, either you follow it or get lost. It is like applying for driving license, you may have 20 years of driving experiences, without a valid license, you don't drive, period.

A serious racial riots occured known as May 13, 1969. The incident proved at that time that Malaysian racial balance and stability was fragile at best.

Because of that 5 pledges were introduced, and thought from day 1 at school to all malaysian.

# Belief in God
# Loyalty to King and Country
# Supremacy of the Constitution.
# The Rule of Law
# Mutual respect and good social behaviour.

Notice first above all, BELIEF IN GOD, we are free to BELIEF in what we belief, as a Islamic Country it should have been Belief in Allah, but no, we tell you belief in your God.

Check out Malaysia 40 richest man in Malaysia..

http://members.forbes.com/global/2006/0605/035.html

Top of the list, a chinese, second an indian, next chinese chinese and more chinese, at no 9 then you see Malay.

What say you...

Posted by: meyour at June 2, 2007 1:35 PM

Meyour,

Thank you for your response. It is easy to see only the extremes. From my on experience with Malays, I suspect you are probably right that PAS and other extremist are a minority. Unfortunately, the loudest minorities often drive policy.

Of couse, I would respond to your argument above pointing out that the most prosperous Malaysian are non-Muslims by asking "why is that so?" What is the flaw in Islamic culture that causes Muslim societies to rely on non-Muslims to maintain prosperity. This is so with Chinese and Indians in Malaysia, Christians in Lebanon and Syria, and even back during the time of the great Caliphates when Jewish and Christian dhimmis drove virtually the entire economies, science, and education of these Muslim empires. If you can answer that question, perhaps you can find the key to successful Islamic reform.

I welcome posts from Muslims like you because you are a worthy defender of your position. Many people who read only the unedited blogs at JW/DW think this is an anti-Muslim site. That is not accurate. This site is anti-Jihad and dedicated to fighting the oppression inherent in systems of dhimmitude. If you surf through the blogs here you will find Muslims like Haidon as well as the recently-deceased Pakistani reformist Tashbih Sayyed. I suppose that bloggers like myself are anti-Muslim only if you define Islam as requiring one to live 13 centuries in the past. Those Muslims who desire their Faith to be a living, vibrant modern religion would find us to be natural allies.

Nevertheless, even on these polemical issues where we will never agree, it is always educational (and fun) to debate. One can be a dedicated opponent without being an enemy. So do not hesitate to post here no holds barred. We will respond and counter-attack but after surfing your site, I am confident you will enjoy the rumble. So again, I welcome you.

Posted by: Provoslavni at June 2, 2007 4:38 PM

Provoslavni,

You are definitely right about the minority being the loudest. These people often stir our peaceful communities. These people gave Malaysia bad name to outsiders.

Personally I do not blame non-malay for being more prosperous than malay. History made us what we are now.

This is my theory on what actually happen. Centuries ago malays were the richest and most respected race compare to others. During our grandfather's time, chinese and indian were like current Indonesian, who come to Malaysia empty handed looking for opportunity to make decent money. Like today, back then we need cheap labour for tin ore mining and workers for our estate.

Fortunate for them, we need extra head count in order to get independent status from British. We make gave them nationality. They enjoy benefit as Malasian, apart from some right reserved for Malay as bumiputra.

So chinese work in mining industries, after work they make extra buck by collecting tin ore manually. Indian were send to work in estate. And malay? they were the mandor, the supervisor, the estate manager, in another word the boss.

The boss earn fixed salary, while chinese getting wealthy for working extra hard. Unfortunately for indian, nothing much they can earn extra money in estate. That is why they are still the lowest of three.

That is why today, malay still lacking behind, sadly most of us think we are still the boss, and the chinese flying "high" under the radar playing aloing with the situation while making millions of dollar. That is why till today, you see local chinese retailer greet the malay customer "good morning boss" "how are you boss" and the malay walk in with big smile on their face and keep on living in fantasy world.

For that reason, we are breeding new breed of malay, Melayu Baru (new malay) and hope we are not too late before we becoming like a malay folktale character "Pak Kadok", his chicken win in a chicken fight but because of his stupidity, he lost all his belonging, including his precious chicken.

If we don't change - someday those indonesian and bangladesh emigrant will kick us in our butt.

Posted by: meyour at June 2, 2007 10:08 PM