The Islamic Council of Victoria state has agreed that citizens have the right to "robustly debate religion" and "criticize religious beliefs" within the limits of the law.

Wow! Muslims agree that dhimmis have the right to robustly criticize Islam!? Good news, but how long before they spin it?

Posted by: Tziona at June 26, 2007 6:41 AM

Why on earth would a case like this ever get to court. Madness, complete madness.

Posted by: Ian at June 26, 2007 6:56 AM

"The Islamic Council of Victoria state has agreed that citizens have the right to "robustly debate religion" and "criticize religious beliefs" within the limits of the law."

...too bad the Christian citizens in Muslim countries do not have that right....oops, the law in those countries are indeed different...Christians only have the right to die or leave....The Islamic Council of Victoria state clearly desire to dominate and take over...they do not want robust debate on religion, they want complete dominance...

Posted by: exsgtbrown at June 26, 2007 7:04 AM

I don't think the two Dannies came out of this as well as I would have liked.They have to share the court costs. That is at least one good outcome as the pastors were up for $AU500,000.
Sorry, I don't have a link.

>>VCAT Media Release
Human Rights Division - Anti Discrimination List – VCAT Ref: A392/2002
Friday 22nd June 2007

Joint Statement of the Islamic Council of Victoria Inc., Catch The Fire Ministries Inc., Daniel Nalliah and Daniel Scot

The Islamic Council of Victoria (the ICV) has reached an agreement with Catch the Fire Ministries, Pastor Daniel Scot and Pastor Daniel Nalliah about the complaint the ICV brought in the Victorian Civil and Administrative Tribunal (VCAT), concerning what it alleged were acts of religious vilification in contravention of s 8 of the Racial and Religious Tolerance Act 2001 (Vic).

Although some of the terms of that agreement are confidential, the parties have agreed to make this joint public statement.

Notwithstanding their differing views about the merits of the complaint made by the ICV, each of the ICV, Catch The Fire Ministries, Pastor Scot and Pastor Nalliah affirm and recognise the following:

1) the dignity and worth of every human being, irrespective of their religious faith, or the absence of religious faith;

2) the rights of each other, their communities, and all persons, to adhere to and express their own religious beliefs and to conduct their lives consistently with those beliefs;

3) the rights of each other, their communities and all persons, within the limits provided for by law, to robustly debate religion, including the right to criticise the religious belief of another, in a free, open and democratic society;

4) the value of friendship, respect and co-operation between Christians, Muslims and all people of other faiths; and

5) the Racial and Religious Tolerance Act forms part of the law of Victoria to which the rights referred to in paragraph 3 above are subject.

Posted by: Gramfan at June 26, 2007 7:41 AM

Didnt the "vilofication" occur when they quoted the Qu'ran?

Posted by: Elric66 at June 26, 2007 7:54 AM

oops, seems like the muslims lost this round. Their idea of using our laws against us didn't work this time.

Posted by: R_not at June 26, 2007 8:45 AM

Isn't paragraph 4 broken in Mosques all over Victoria evey friday?
They scarcely preach kaffir friendship.
Sounds like one law for Muslims and one for all others to me.

That is what happens when socialists run a state government.

If the federal ALP wins the next election we can expect waves of illegal Muslims flooding across to Oz.

Mind you I don't like the multinational sucking Liberals either but they are a lesser evil.

Posted by: MisIslamist at June 26, 2007 9:13 AM

The Islamic Council of Victoria state has agreed that citizens have the right to "robustly debate religion" and "criticize religious beliefs" within the limits of the law.

Translation: you can "criticize islam within the limits of the law;" but, you will be sued everytime you do, making it so expensive to defend your rights that eventually, you will keep your criticisms to yourselves because you can't afford not to.

This is a BIG win for islam; a BIG lose for everyone else.

Posted by: witness at June 26, 2007 9:16 AM

What exactly would be concidered illegal in critizing Islam?

Posted by: Elric66 at June 26, 2007 10:19 AM

Australians had better change these ridiculous anti-free speech laws or this half-loss will only get worse as the Muslim litigants get more cunning.

There should never have been a case.

Are you not allowed to "villify" the Aztecs\ religion of virgin sacrifice and heart-ripping if a neo-Aztec cult arose?

Bad times for Oz.

Posted by: profitsbeard at June 26, 2007 10:46 AM

This is utterly ridiculous...why should one have to spend half a mil over criticizing a religion?

That law better be repealed quick or this is gonna get costly.

Posted by: Miss_Anthrope at June 26, 2007 11:01 AM

I don't think that this very good news. How could one be free to speak if you have to consider a frivolous lawsuit being thrown at you before doing so? How about imposing a lawsuit on *them* for preventing the exercise of a basic human right. The right to freely speak!

Posted by: twoCents at June 26, 2007 11:32 AM

Looks like The Islamic Council of Victoria backed down on this one,so as to cut teir losses, as they could see they where going to lose.

http://illustratedpig.blogspot.com/2007/06/photo-sharing-and-video-hosting-at.html

Posted by: shiva at June 26, 2007 11:48 AM

PLEASE, if anyone knows - what exactly did the pastors SAY that got them into trouble?

Posted by: poetcomic1 at June 26, 2007 12:21 PM

I think we should read that more carfully...it says "robustly debate religion" and "criticize religious beliefs", but it does not say "robustly debate islam" and "criticize islamic beliefs".

Posted by: GamblersChoice at June 26, 2007 12:37 PM

Is there a legitimate agency or organization to which we can donate money to defray these men's court costs?

Posted by: kaffirchick at June 26, 2007 1:48 PM

Lawyers win, Lawyers WINNNN!!!

Posted by: MP at June 26, 2007 2:01 PM

Unlike the United States ; Australia , Canada and the United Kingdom do not have a strong First Amendment equivalent.

So, laws against "incitement" reach this ridiculous dimension in the interests of "fairness".

So much for the Common Law system..

Posted by: purplemarbles at June 26, 2007 3:02 PM

Raise your hand if you think Billary or Barrack would propose a similar villification statute if they knew it mean a few extra votes over to their side?

Thanks. OK. You can put them down now.

Posted by: Leave Iraq Now at June 26, 2007 3:15 PM

Off topic. OF SNAKES AND SUCKERS. In the Aftenposten. Several afghan refugees set up an asylum acadamy outside a church. they have converted to Christianity and wish to study human rights and democracy. Why? They were to have been deported and Norway won't return refugees to their homelands if their lives would be in danger. Fine Christians I'm sure they'll make.

Posted by: mustang65 at June 26, 2007 3:35 PM

Pity Australia doesn't have freedom of speech. Maybe they should have their own revolution.

Posted by: Timur at June 26, 2007 6:53 PM

mustang65,

They were to have been deported and Norway won't return refugees to their homelands if their lives would be in danger.

Oh great, a new tactic for the war I see.We can probably expect to see more of this BS hapenning as time goes on (unless our governments WAKE UP).

Posted by: mrockroll1969 at June 26, 2007 8:10 PM

"The Islamic Council of Victoria state has agreed that citizens have the right to "robustly debate religion" and "criticize religious beliefs" within the limits of the law."

And we, of course, know whose law: We're talking Sharia and the rules of apostasy here...

As long as the debate & criticism begins and ends with assurances that "there is but one God, Allah, and Mohammed is his Prophet", and "Mohammed was the Perfect Man, worthy of emulation in all things", everything will be fine, I tell you, just fine.

-------------------------

How many pastors can afford $500,000 for free speech against evil? How many will now bite their tongues and NOT call Islam out on what it encourages its adherents to believe and to do? Silence from the pulpit against the brutishness of Islam? Oh, my God. Literally.

Posted by: A_Nonny_Mouse at June 26, 2007 9:18 PM

Andrew Bolt had a great column on this...

It does appear that the Pastors were quoting the Qu'ran.

Also in the comments from the link are the details of the fighting fund for the Pastors.

http://blogs.news.com.au/heraldsun/andrewbolt/index.php/heraldsun/comments/comment_pastors_toil_and_trouble/

" [..] Because they quoted the Koran to their congregation. Because in that congregation were Muslim activists, sent by a discrimination commissar hired from a Muslim lobby group.

How preposterous, how sinister, has been this saga. [..]"

Posted by: Tissa at June 26, 2007 9:57 PM

Moslem when they pray on Firday donot pearch about hated and they donot use the aradic word for non-believer at all. Islam will win in the end as it is the religion of peaces. If you hate full fill people who attacked the religion of Islam that is causeing the touble. Those Pastors better ask Allah for forgiven as Allah is the all meryful one. Moslim
will be the largerst group of people in Heaven with the second largest being Jews with Christian being either third or fourth place in number of people in heaven.

Posted by: DefenderofIslam at June 26, 2007 10:03 PM

DofI
What do you know? Really, what do you know? Just what you've been told? My heaven is nothing like yours, so how can they be the same place?

I'm getting more than a little pippy at the likes of you telling me about my faith, what it says and how it's all wrong. Buddy, Islam is no more than a religious covering to give free rein to the evil impulses of the human heart. A convert to Islam gives up any bad habits through willpower alone, nothing else. His/her frustration is then simply channelled into hatred of the kaffir. And you know the lust you feel when viewing scantily dressed women? That's your problem, not hers. Go and see Allah about it.

"Religion of peaces"...a Freudian slip, perhaps?

Posted by: toothy at June 26, 2007 11:27 PM

Most Christian workship the cross not Allah(God) they workship Jesus as God not Allah, they believe the hesery that Jesus was the son of god. Allah have no parther,no sons and no sister Allah is the One God. Than Roman Cathal who convert to Islam tell me
that many Christian workship Mary as the mother of god Allah have no mother and no father. At least the Jews workship the one true God Allah. People who donot believe in God are in the worst part of hellfire. Some believer will sent some time in hellfire but they will be release from hellfire to enter Heaven where they will be warmly greeths by the people of Heaven.

Posted by: DefenderofIslam at June 27, 2007 1:31 AM

To find who said what the initial Tribunal finding from the questionable Judge Higgins can accessed in full at:

http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/cases/vic/VCAT/2004/2510.html

while the Victorian Court of Appeal decision returning some sanity to the matter is at:

http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/cases/vic/VSCA/2006/284.html

Posted by: MBR at June 27, 2007 7:17 AM

This is not good news, we must do out best to ensure other states don't adopt this incredibly bad law.

"Why should vilifying Islam, or vilifying Christianity, or vilifying anything you like, be against the law at all?"

Exactly.There is no need for these stupid laws. I don't give a toss what anyone says about my beliefs. I won't run to some stupid tribunal if someone says something that contradicts what I believe. Are your beliefs so shallow that you must resort to a secular government to seek redress?

"CBNNews.com - A five-year battle over free speech in Australia's state of Victoria is over."

... and Victoria lost.

Posted by: Ozi_bloke at June 27, 2007 8:45 PM

To Defender of Islam –

First, on-topic: I support freedom of speech. I think that these two pastors in Australia – one of whom used to be a Muslim, and is now a Christian – should be free to talk about Islam to Christians in Australia, and free to say whatever they like, concerning Islam, Mohammed, the Quran, the Hadiths, Muslim theologians and Muslim history. I hope our government wakes up ...and that any future Muslim attempts to squash freedom of speech, get thrown out of court.

Now, to deal with your latest post above, and its misconceptions. For your information: Christians DON’T worship the cross. It’s only a memorial – it reminds us that Jesus was crucified. (Yeah – I know Mohammed said Jesus WASN’T crucified, but, to be frank, Mohammed was telling a great big lie when he said that; just as he lied when he claimed that Abraham offered Ishmael, not Isaac. Yes. Mohammed lied. He lied about Jesus. He lied about Isaac. Because both times he wanted to strike at the heart of the faiths he was attacking: Christianity, and Judaism. Christians preach Christ who was crucified. The Hebrew Scripture says plainly that Abraham offered Isaac [Genesis 22]. Mohammed says – and he has absolutely NO proof for what he says – that these things did not happen. Which means that no serious Christian OR Jew can ever accept Islam.).

Yes, Christians believe Jesus is Son of David and Son of God, the living Word of God; the God of Israel there in person among his own covenant people as one of them, a Jewish rabbi of the first century AD, born to a Jewish woman, Mary/ Miriam/ Mariam of Nazareth. It would take too long to explain, here, the things that convinced his first – Jewish – followers that this was who and what he was, and that they had to adjust their understanding of God, accordingly.

We Christians worship God: Father, Son (Jesus) and Holy Spirit, ‘One God in Trinity and Trinity in Unity’. We don’t worship ‘three gods’. We just have a complex, dynamic, relational understanding of the oneness of the Biblical God. Sure, our doctrine is difficult. It was worked out over time by the first Christians, in an attempt to describe their personal and dramatic encounter with God-in-Jesus-Christ, and their experience of the Holy Spirit, and their reflections upon Scripture.

As for Mary: no Christian scripture and no Christian theologian has ever taught that Mary - the Jewish woman who at Bethlehem gave birth to the Jew Jesus - was god or a god. Yes, Catholics and Eastern Orthodox Christians give her extravagant honour. But if you ask them ‘Is Mary God?’, they will say, ‘No!!!’ and laugh at you for your stupidity. She is ‘Mother Mary’ merely as Abraham is ‘Father Abraham’.

The technical term ‘Mother of God’ (which translates theotokos, ‘God-bearer’) refers ONLY to the fact that Mary is the mother of Jesus, Jesus whom Christians recognise as God Incarnate.

You can threaten me with hellfire as much as you like. But it will never convince me to say The Thing Which Is Not: that the ‘Allah’ of Islam, who doesn’t have an atom of real love in him anywhere, is the same thing as the loving, personal, lively God who appears in every page of the Bible, the God whom Jesus has taught me to call ‘Father’. You will never get me to leave the household of Love and enter the prison of Slavery. But you, perhaps, might consider the claims of Love…

Here is the story of a Muslim who found Jesus. He loved to listen to Christian music on gospel radio when he was a university student. Eventually, at his request, the radio people sent him a copy of the Gospels. Reading Jesus' Sermon on the Mount made a big impact, especially the phrase, "love your enemies."

"I had never found that phrase anywhere in Islam," he explained. "There was a great difference between the Qur'an (Muslim holy book) and Injil (New Testament). In the Gospel it was like talking to God as a friend. In Islam you are a servant. I accepted Jesus because He practiced what He preached—and He gave me fellowship with God."

Talking to God - to YHWH, the Creator, the Redeemer, the Covenant-Keeper - as a friend…In the Bible, Abraham does that. Moses does that. King David does that. Job does that. Are you, O Defender of Islam, brave enough to do that? Or does your religion forbid you to even try?

Posted by: dumbledoresarmy at June 27, 2007 9:58 PM