i have just finished reading the Gallagher article at Open Democracy, very interesting
and worthy of your time.
The political picture in Scotland seems depressingly similer to that in the UK as a whole:

"Nobody wondered aloud about the religious dimensions of the violent ideology that had
evidently motivated the would-be massacre. Indeed, Scotland's health minister and SNP
deputy leader Nicola Sturgeon was explicit that "Islam is a religion of peace".

Having offered "perfunctory praise for John Smeaton", Sturgeon inevitably moved on "to
particularly praise the Muslim community in Scotland". So, here we go again, try to brush the problems under the carpet and accuse those who will not shut-up of Islamophobia.
These close ties between the SNP and the Islamists should surprise us, since broad-
spectrum Jihad seeks to undermine all forms of exisitng order, and to benefit from the ensuing chaos. If Salmond succeeds in breaking up the UK, then imoh that will almost certainly leave both England and Scotland weaker, and Wales wondering what to do. And all of that will work in favour of the "transnational radical currents that see Islam primarily as an ideological tool to create a revolutionary new state".

Posted by: M Al-Content at July 22, 2007 6:39 AM

Britain needs more politicians like this.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=jjySWn40bXg

Posted by: km at July 22, 2007 10:00 AM

I just watched the Nick Griffin interview on BBC referred to in km's post. Was this from a regular nightly news program or from a political commentary program? If from the nightly news, it's sure different from the U.S. It lasted 7 and a half minutes. On the U.S. nightly news it would have lasted only a minute or less, and would have consisted of selected snippets presenting Griffin in as poor a light a possible.

Posted by: ebonystone at July 22, 2007 10:39 AM

"Osama Saeed, who was also an SNP candidate in this year's Scottish"
Given the way in which Islam is concerned to eradicate so much of local culture I find the way in which Muslims turn up in Scottish and Welsh nationalist parties as slightly disingenuous.

In Wales there has been a Plaid Cymru Cardiff councillor, Mohammed Sarul Islam, for several years and in the elections last month Mohammad Asghar became the first Muslim candidate to be elected to the Cardiff-based Welsh Assembly, sitting as a Plaid Cymru (Welsh Nationalist) party member. There are 22,000 Muslims in Wales (o.7% of the population).

Much of this activism may be put down to the fact that the mainland nationalist parties both oppose British involvement in Iran and Iraq, something which makes them attractive to Muslim activists
(there is a remarkably detailed discusion of the various nationalist parties in an MPAC blog:

http://forum.mpacuk.org/archive/index.php?t-21219.html

Nationalist parties are also, no doubt, keen to avoid accusations of ethnic exclusivity and so oout of their way to find candidates from the minorites. Still, I can't help feeling that there is some eagerness to exploit and foment divisions among the kaffirs going on here.

Wales' answer to Yvonne Ridley, Merryl Wyn Davies, who appears on local TV occasionally extolling the delights of the Islam to which she has converted, puts her conversion partly down to a dislike of English culture and the way the English have behaved towards the Welsh over the centuries. Some people on the Celtic fringe who feel that way express it by taking all their cultural references directly from the US but since she once co-authored a book called 'Why do people hate America?', I suppose she's never seen that as an option.
I find the whole business of Muslims supporting what are, in many ways, thoroughly cultural nationalisms a little bit creepy.

Posted by: wallyUK at July 22, 2007 12:23 PM

wallyuk

but are the SNP and Plaid Cymru really "nationalist" parties? Plaid Cymru started out as an independence at all costs party from the UK, the SNP follows their example and so relied heavily on overseas donations to fund their cause. these parties are socialist and internationalist. they look out for not the individual welsh or scot but to the whole concept of wales and scotland within the international socialist arena. the more immigrants these "nationalists" can win over and encourage to live in their lands then the more power these "nationalist" groups gain. their real aim is to destroy their nationalist identity and reinvent their nations, create everyone equal and keep the reins of power forever.

Posted by: leonthepigfarmer at July 22, 2007 3:25 PM

Every bit of Nick Griffin's interview applies to the U.S, except we have no political party to support the platform. The British are thus way ahead of us in defining the problem and having a legitimate party to vote for which we do not have in the U.S.

Posted by: Briars at July 22, 2007 5:47 PM

Don't be fooled by the BNP - they've never gained more than abut 10% of the vote even in particularly favourable circumstances. The Islamists would have won a great tactical victory if criticism of Islam was seen as the preserve of that motley bunch of xenophobes. At least one poster living in the UK of Indian origin has said that he will not post here because of the presence as posters on this site of people like him are precisely what is needed to point out that the presence of Islam is inimical to a harmonious multiracial society. Personally I'd rather have my finger nails pulled out than vote BNP - and I mean that.

Posted by: wallyUK at July 22, 2007 8:04 PM

wallyuk

read this, "BNP attempts to forge ethnic minority links
By Social Affairs Reporter Barnie Choudhury"

http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio4/today/reports/archive/politics/bnp.shtml

there has been a dramatic shift in policy with the BNP, they are heading towards a Dutch style nationalist party. which is what i have always pressed their top leadership for. give the BNP 10 years and they will be spot on and they will have a massive following from all british nationalists of all races. wallyuk? would you support that great dream? i bloody well do!

"Mr. Griffin says the dream of an all white Britain is no longer feasible. Indeed "getting everybody out is neither humane nor practical or going to happen". Britain needs to make the best of a bad job and that means talking to groups who might think they're poles apart from the BNP. Is this for real? "

Posted by: leonthepigfarmer at July 22, 2007 8:28 PM

Wally UK:
Having your fingernails pulled out will be easier than watching your great British culture beheaded at the hands of the Islamists or to have elements of Sharia sweep through your culture destroynig its very fabric. Yet you look to mainstream British politics for remedies yet not any amongst them have any remedies, in fact, your new Mr. Brown sees no problem with Islamists only with those like Nick Griffin who care to speak out about them.
Your time is running out, Wally. You have my prayers.

Posted by: Briars at July 22, 2007 8:45 PM

I am not pessimistic, despite the almost unbelievable hold political correctness and fear have on the willingness of individuals to speak out. Why? Shariah law and hardline Islam have little appeal. Even "moderate Muslims" reject the absolutism that Islam demands. Islam will have to change. So-called moderates are not easily dismissed as apostates, but we have not reached an equilibrium. Things are in flux. Once it settles down, you'll see something different.

Posted by: Wimbledon Womble at July 22, 2007 8:55 PM

Given the way in which Islam is concerned to eradicate so much of local culture I find the way in which Muslims turn up in Scottish and Welsh nationalist parties as slightly disingenuous.

Posted by: wallyUK at July 22, 2007 12:23 PM

Yes, wallyUK, ditto over here in America. Our Rep. Ellison, has much to defend with his questionable stances, (the latest comparing Bush to Hitler). Unfortunately, the MSM has chosen not to give him the scrutiny he so richly deserves.

Posted by: Paleologos at July 23, 2007 1:49 AM

leonthepigfarmer
"the more immigrants these "nationalists" can win over and encourage to live in their lands then the more power these "nationalist" groups gain."

But aren't you an immigrant yourself, leon? Didn't you state the other day that you'd left Britain for the U.S, and had taken U.S citizenship?

So, you're against immigration, but you yourself are an immigrant. And you describe yourself as a British Nationalist, but you apparently choose not to live in the country and have even taken the citizenship of another country. Hmm...

As for your dream of the BNP turning into a British version of the Dutch PVV, it's hopeless.

PVV leader Geert Wilders is a former liberal politician whose party campaigns on a right-wing conservative ticket. He doesn't have a criminal background in anti-Semitic hate, unlike your beloved Nick Griffin. He has never supported Islamic terrorists, unlike the BNP's "past" (?) support for the PLO and other Arab terror groups. And, unlike the BNP, he has no links to extremist groups and individuals like David Duke, the former head of the Ku Klux Klan.

This is the reason why the BNP has no hope at all of forming any links with minority groups. Your previous post forgot to add the response of the World Hindu Council representative Hasmukh Shah to the BNP's overtures:

'Mr. Griffin is clear about one thing. He would encourage a meeting with Mr. Shah to forge closer links - something the Hindu leader will never entertain:

"We ourselves do not subscribe to any part of the BNP philosophy and we ourselves want to crush the ugly head of racism in the form of the BNP."'

Sounds like a pretty emphatic NO to me.

To the JW team: Can you stop supporters of this neo-fascist group from posting its propaganda on here? Its actions and rhetoric have wrecked the immigration debate in the UK, and now that it has have moved on to anti-Islamism it will wreck that too.

As I've pointed out previously, the BNP encourages supporters to use third-party websites to promote its agenda (see link below).

http://www.bnp.org.uk/cyberactive/cyber_intro.htm

Jihadwatch does not appear to permit other political parties to post propaganda on here. On the contrary, JW prides itself on being apolitical. So why should it give a platform to the BNP, especially as that party does so much to tarnish the anti-Islamist cause with its history of race hate rhetoric and its continued, barely concealed anti-Semitism?

Posted by: Matamoros at July 23, 2007 10:02 AM

I know little about Osama Saeed, but from what I know, this is a genuinely bad guy. Why any Western country would allow him to remain on their soil is beyond me.

Posted by: GetBornAgain at July 23, 2007 10:07 AM

Matamoros, I agree that Mr. Spencer intends for the website to be apolitical, but how then to explain the constant liberal-bashing that goes on here? Personally, I am liberal on most issues and quite proud of it (which in itself is enough to put me in the "enemy" camp of most people who post here), and the fact that I have nothing but utter contempt for jihadists and the vast majority of Muslims seems not to matter here. I find it distasteful, and frankly I think it drives away many potential supporters--at a time when the anti-jihad effort needs all the supporters it can get.

Also, I agree about Geert Wilders--he is no anti-Semite, nor is he a right-wing nut the way some have portrayed him. I think he may well be one of Europe's last remaining hopes, as the rest of their politicians seem fully content to let Islam conquer their lands and cultures bit by bit.

Posted by: GetBornAgain at July 23, 2007 10:13 AM

"neo-fascist". that's a new one.

yes i am a US immigrant! a proud one at that. i have dual nationality. it's not illegal, yet? the UK is not founded on mass immigration, the US is an immigrant nation. the BNP allows expats to join the BNP, i have family friends in the UK, i travel there all the time. even americans could join the BNP.
i have never been encouraged to write about the BNP from anyone, these are my own opinions.
if mr spencer wants to ban me, let him its his decision and his web site. i have never stated anything racist and have wanted a dutch style "freedom party" to come out of british nationalism. go read that article i just put up, they have changed a hell of a lot and a little more pressure they will change more.
hell even ethnic minorities could joinhte BNP, they never check your ethnic origin. imagine if 1 million joined then they would have to change. see the logic in that? or do you still picture me typing away dressed in a nazi uniform?

and for the record i havent emigrated to the US to turn it into a British caliphate or pervert the democratic process using terror in the name of the royal family.

Posted by: leonthepigfarmer at July 23, 2007 10:27 AM

Matamoros:

To the JW team: Can you stop supporters of this neo-fascist group from posting its propaganda on here? Its actions and rhetoric have wrecked the immigration debate in the UK, and now that it has have moved on to anti-Islamism it will wreck that too.

In seeking to ban those with whom you disagree aren't you risking being accused of fascism yourself? A poll found that most Britons support BNP policies:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/news.html?in_article_id=384167&in_page_id=1770

Please don't talk about politicians having criminal backgrounds. The "mainstream" parties in the UK all have members with criminal convictions - some of whom have served time in prison.

I have never been encouraged by the BNP to post on web sites.

Unlikely as it may seem, some of us are actually capable of independent thoughts and actions. I'm sorry if this is at odds with your cosy world view, where jackbooted fascist dictators order their zombie troops to lurk round every corner, seeking to obfuscate debate and subvert the political process.

Posted by: watling at July 23, 2007 10:42 AM

GetBornAgain:

Matamoros, I agree that Mr. Spencer intends for the website to be apolitical, but how then to explain the constant liberal-bashing that goes on here?

GBA, it depends on how you define the term "liberal". From your short description, I'm assuming that you are what I'd consider a traditional, old-school liberal. Like such people that I know, you believe in free speech, tolerance, equality, and all our traditional Western freedoms.

When people on here talk about "liberals", however, they are mostly talking about the moonbat adherents of post-60's ideology - the intolerant anti-liberals whose views dominate large sections of politics, academia, college campuses and the mainstream media (MSM).

These people are described as "liberals" but there's a clear difference between them and the more traditional version. IMHO, the American political humourist P. J. O'Rourke came up with the best and most helpful definition of this difference:

When I say "liberals" I certainly don't mean openhanded individuals or tolerant persons or even Big Government Democrats. I mean people who are excited that one percent of the profits of Ben & Jerry's ice cream goes to promote world peace.

That one paragraph captures perfectly the type of person he's describing, and the type of "liberal" that posters on here rail against.

Posted by: Matamoros at July 23, 2007 10:50 AM

Does Mr Salmond hate England more than he loves Scotland?
Probably.

Posted by: Odyessus at July 23, 2007 12:12 PM

Matamoros:

I am an american and have visited the BNP site daily and have not seen any of the islamist mingling or KKK connections. Obviously you have more info than I do about the BNP so i would like to see what references you have for the claims you make. You suggesting on banning their ideas in the realm of fighting against world wide Jiahd seems a little tyrannical.

As I have asked Wally K and now I ask you, what have mainstream political parties in england done to try to solve the hatching of Jiahdists in england seeking to destroy the political structure or the rising tide of Sharia driven Islamists seeking to destroy the culture? I am ready to learn from what you have to say.

Posted by: Briars at July 23, 2007 12:29 PM

Posted by Briars:

I am an american and have visited the BNP site daily and have not seen any of the islamist mingling or KKK connections. Obviously you have more info than I do about the BNP so i would like to see what references you have for the claims you make. You suggesting on banning their ideas in the realm of fighting against world wide Jiahd seems a little tyrannical.

Well, Briars, as you say, you are an American and new to the BNP. But the party and its leadership have a long history of violent and hateful racialism going back years, and a brand of anti-Semitism that rivals anything published in the Islamic world.

The party’s leader, Nick Griffin, is now rather silent about his party’s deep-rooted Jew hate. But he wasn’t always so shy. In 1997, when editor of BNP magazine The Rune he referred to the Holocaust as the “Holohoax” and slammed the notorious “revisionist” historian David Irving for his admittance that up to four million Jews might have been killed, writing:

"True Revisionists will not be fooled by this new twist to the sorry tale of the Hoax of the Twentieth Century”.

Griffin was convicted in 1998 of inciting racial hatred over this article. Unrepentant, he declared:

"I am well aware that the orthodox opinion is that 6 million Jews were gassed and cremated and turned into lampshades. Orthodox opinion also once held that the Earth was flat... I have reached the conclusion that the "extermination" tale is a mixture of Allied wartime propaganda, extremely profitable lie, and latter witch-hysteria."

Also in 1997, he wrote a vile anti-Semitic pamphlet Who are the Mind Benders? This publication promoted the idea that a sinister Jewish cabal ran Britain’s media and publishing industries, whose aim it was to “weaken the national spirit and racial pride of the British people”:

"But who is behind it all? Who are the people who determine what is watched on television and printed in the newspapers? This is not so easy a study because a great many of the people concerned operate in the shadows. And even in the case of those whose names are known, what is known about their backgrounds and their connections? Very little.

For this reason, very few people in Britain are aware of the huge influence over the mass media exercised by a certain ethnic minority, namely the Jews."

It goes on to list a whole host of names and photos of people it claims are members of this Jewish conspiracy, reassuring anxious bigots that even if the person’s name doesn’t sound Jewish “the reader can rest assured that extensive research has established them to be so.”

It’s way too rambling, obsessive and warped to read in full, but if you feel you must have hard proof of the BNP’s Nazi leanings you can find it at:

http://www.heretical.com/British/mindbend/read.html

But that was in 1997. BNP supporters call this past history, and Griffin himself says that he’s changed since. Funny though, in an article on the BNP website dated 23 Sept 2005, he was still banging on about “Zionists” (BNP shorthand for Jews):

“And it is equally true that assorted Zionists – particularly around President Bush - played a key role both in pushing for that invasion [ Iraq ] and in telling the lies that created a degree of public support for it. It seems that they thought that having the Yanks and Brits go in and obliterate Saddam was a good thing for Israel… But while this was clearly a key reason behind the decision of various Jewish media bosses to back the invasion, it does not automatically prove that it was the real, or the only, reason for it.”

http://www.bnp.org.uk/columnists/chairman2.php?ngId=25

When the BNP isn’t busy exposing wicked Jewish - sorry, "Zionist" - cabals, it’s promoting David Duke, the notorious U.S anti-Semite, pro-Islamist and former Grand Wizard of the Ku Klux Klan, and defending him from his many critics.

Indeed, an article on the BNP website attacks the “Zionist” Michael Chertoff, then US Assistant Attorney General, for his role in prosecuting and imprisoning Duke:

“Chertoff recently prevented the Federal prosecution of the 200 Israeli spies who were caught in the months before and after the 9/11 attacks. He has worked to hide the Israeli complicity and treachery in the September attacks. Chertoff now seeks to persecute and silence the man who has been the most prominent voice in the world exposing the Israeli Mossad's role in 9/11.”

So there you have it - the BNP website openly promoting the same “Jews were behind 9/11” crap pedalled by Islamists and their sympathisers.

http://www.bnp.org.uk/articles/davidduke_battle.htm

(The above link also offers BNP website visitors the chance to buy David Duke's book My Awakening which it describes as “brilliant”.)

Duke's support for Islamist terror groups has been well documented, not least by Jihadwatch. Read this transcript, post by Robert, of Duke's speech in Damascus in support of Bashar Assad, where he allies himself with Syria's fight against the "Zionist enemy".

http://www.jihadwatch.org/archives/2005/11/009158print.html

Far from hiding its links with Duke, however, the BNP proudly boasts of its connections with him:

“A top level delegation of BNP officials is today flying high over the Atlantic to attend a three day conference aimed at bringing together European nationalists and American patriots of European descent. Party Chairman, Nick Griffin is leading the BNP delegation to speak at the European American Conference as guests of David Duke in Louisiana.”

http://www.bnp.org.uk/news_detail.php?newsId=316

As if its neo-Nazi leanings weren't apparent enough, in 2005 BNP members, including its Deputy Chairman Scott McLean, were filmed performing Nazi salutes while attending a cross burning ceremony - you really couldn’t make this up - and the footage appeared in a British TV documentary, Nazi Hate Rock, depicting the neo-Nazi music scene (see link below)

http://thescotsman.scotsman.com/scotland.cfm?id=131752006

The BNP’s anti-Islamist stance is a very recent position adopted purely to try and attract support, something which Nick Griffin himself freely admits:

"We should be positioning ourselves to take advantage for our own political ends of the growing wave of public hostility to Islam currently being whipped up by the mass media. This is not a matter of dancing to neo-con tunes, but of finding members of the public who are already used to the sound of that kind of music willing to cross over and dance to our tune."

http://www.bnp.org.uk/columnists/chairman2.php?ngId=30

Note that "neo-cons" is just more BNP shorthand for Jews. If you read all of the above rambling article, that becomes quite clear.

Despite it present claim of being anti-Islamist, for most of its existence the party and its predecessors were staunch supporters of the PLO and other Arab terror organisations. Nick Griffin was even invited to Libya by Col. Gaddaffi to seek funding for his anti-Semitic campaigns.

I'm afraid the BNP is a terminally flawed concept, Briars. Far from encouraging opposition to rising Islamism, mass immigration, EU membership, and the other problems facing Britain today, it actually puts people off.

Watling, a BNP supporter, posted a link above to an article stating that most Britons agreed with the BNP's policies on immigration.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/news.html?in_article_id=384167&in_page_id=1770

What he failed to add, however, and what the article points out, is that they largely disown these policies when they discover they are associated with the BNP. On the BNP's call to limit immigration, it states that:

"More than a third of people, 37 per cent, said they would seriously consider voting for the BNP's policies in an election. But identifying the BNP with the policies caused support to fall by 17 per cent."*

This shows that the BNP, far from leading the debate on the issue, is actually helping to stymie it by associating it with far-Right extremism. It has done this for years with immigration, and if we are not careful it will pollute the debate on Islamism, too. And if it does, then we really are lost.

*The above article claims that 20% of people would support some of the BNP's less extreme policies. I should point out that in the 2005 General Election, the party achieved a whopping 0.7% of the vote. If that doesn‘t convince you of the party‘s total lack of appeal to mainstream Britain, then nothing will...

Posted by: Matamoros at July 23, 2007 8:40 PM

Matamoros:

I don't know if you're an American, but you sure don't sound like one. Wanting to have a poster banned simply because you don't agree with his politics smacks of fascism and censorship. Are you from Venezuela? Hugo Chavez just recently stated that he's deporting all foreigners who disagree with him. You're in good company,eh?

Posted by: atheling at July 23, 2007 8:54 PM

The BNP's support of Israel and the Jewish community.

http://www.bnp.org.uk/columnists/brimstone2.php?leeId=80

http://bnpandme.blogspot.com/2006_07_01_archive.html

".As a Nationalist I can say that I support Israel 100 % in their dispute with Hezbollah. In fact, I hope they wipe Hezbollah off the Lebanese map and bomb them until they leave large greasy craters in the cities where their Islamic extremist cantons of terror once stood. The 21st Century is the Islamic Century. Unless we start to resist the threat of Islamic extremism then within 100 years the West will have become Eurabia..."

BNP councillor Patricia Richardson is Jewish. "A Jewish woman has won a council seat in Essex for the far right British National Party."

http://www.somethingjewish.co.uk/articles/1009_bnp_jewish_win.htm

http://www.bnp.org.uk/columnists/chairman2.php?ngId=25

Posted by: leonthepigfarmer at July 23, 2007 9:04 PM

matamoros,

when are you gonna debate the islamic threat rather than concentrate on UK democratic parties? personally i respect you but you seem to launch into personal attacks labelling me as a "neo fascist" smacks of ignorance when i have clearly stated that i would like to see the BNP be transformed into a dutch style "freedom party". i have also mentioned that i "cringe when i read some of the BNP literature which relates to race". now tell me, how am i a neo-fascist" if i want to see a dutch style 'freedom party" which includes all races within the UK? and lastly i have told you this before, what if 1 million proud british ethnic "minorities" joined the BNP and then went public about it? 1 million would sway the party and the BNP would have no choice but to change. that my friend, is my dream.

Posted by: leonthepigfarmer at July 23, 2007 9:10 PM

atheling:
I don't know if you're an American, but you sure don't sound like one. Wanting to have a poster banned simply because you don't agree with his politics smacks of fascism and censorship.

I thought we were here to oppose Islamofascism and its ideology, which includes anti-Semitism? How can we do that and give a platform to a party every bit as fascist and anti-Semitic as the people we are supposed to be opposing?

Did you read my post above? Did you look at some of the links to the BNP website? I mean, do you agree with its claims that:

A cabal of Jewish advisors forced President Bush into invading Iraq in order to benefit Israel?;

“Zionist” Michael Chertoff, currently US Homeland Security Secretary, acted to cover up Israeli complicity in the 9/11 attacks?;

This is the sort of ranting lunacy one finds on Islamist and Left-wing moonbat websites. Do you believe that such views could be helpful to the anti-Islamist cause? I don’t think so. And like the moonbats, the BNP, until very recently, saw the fight against Islamism as a big plot by:

“American imperialists, the Zionist lobby, the neo-con movement and the US's British puppets in the Labour and Tory parties to drag us into a ‘Clash of Civilisations' with the Islamic world.”- BNP General Election Manifesto 2005.

http://www.bnp.org.uk/candidates2005/manifesto/manf16.htm

And no, I’m not an American. I’m British, and have a first-hand knowledge of the BNP and of its completely negative effect on political debate. I don’t want it to stifle the fight against Islamism, by association, the way that it has previously stifled the debate on immigration in the UK.

Are you from Venezuela? Hugo Chavez just recently stated that he's deporting all foreigners who disagree with him.

Did he? And you find that repugnant? That’s funny - deporting foreigners is one of the BNP’s central policies, too. Still keen to stand alongside them?

Posted by: Matamoros at July 23, 2007 10:32 PM

leonthepigfarmer
personally i respect you but you seem to launch into personal attacks labelling me as a "neo fascist" smacks of ignorance

No, read back - it’s the BNP that I labelled as neo-fascist. However, if you feel that the label fits you, the please feel free to use it.

i have clearly stated that i would like to see the BNP be transformed into a dutch style "freedom party".

Really? I’d like to be transformed into a George Clooney style sex god. And even though this is a hopeless fantasy, it still has more chance of coming true than yours.

i have also mentioned that i "cringe when i read some of the BNP literature which relates to race.”

And what point does this make? Are we to regard you as somehow more virtuous than your fellow Party supporters? How does your cringing at its race hate literature make the BNP not a party based on racial hatred and anti-Semitism? I don’t get it.

i have told you this before, what if 1 million proud british ethnic "minorities" joined the BNP and then went public about it?

What if the moon were made of cream cheese? What if the streets were paved with gold? What if? Again it’s pie-in-the-sky fantasy stuff. You are either very naive and completely clueless about the party you support, or else engaging in a spot of taqiyya. The BNP will never attract 1 million ethnic members, will it, leon? Care to tell the other JW readers why?

That’s right. Because the BNP is a whites-only club. As it clearly states on its website:

"Membership of the British National Party is open to those of British or kindred European ethnic descent. While we welcome contact and co-operation with nationalists and patriots of other races, and with the many non-whites who also oppose enforced multi-racialism, we ask them to respect our right to an organisation of our own, for our own, as we respect and applaud their measures to organise themselves in like fashion."

http://www.bnp.org.uk/shopping/membership.php

Let me guess - you were completely unaware of this? Now where have we heard that before?

Posted by: Matamoros at July 23, 2007 11:11 PM

matamoros:

From what I can see, the BNP is transforming itself to rise to the occasion. It MUST.

If you study history, you will see that political parties do change and evolve. Back in the 19th century, it was the Democratic Party which opposed the abolition of slavery. It's ironic that they purport themselves to be a champion of the "little guy", when you consider their past.

The British government has disenfranchised a large segment of its constituency; ironically enough, it's the original Britons (pre WWII). Multi culti nonsense has the "tail wagging the dog".

Your vehemence and demands to silence people who have grasped onto what could the the last chance for Britain gives me cause to wonder: Are you a Labour or Tory Party member? Mention of the BNP certainly hit a nerve for you.

If I were British, I would turn to the BNP if it will address the crucial issue that faces Britain today: Extinction of the British way of life. That's worth saving.

Posted by: atheling at July 23, 2007 11:27 PM

matamoros

"What if the moon were made of cream cheese? What if the streets were paved with gold? What if? Again it’s pie-in-the-sky fantasy stuff. You are either very naive and completely clueless about the party you support, or else engaging in a spot of taqiyya. The BNP will never attract 1 million ethnic members, will it, leon? Care to tell the other JW readers why?"

i'm seriously not gonna bother replying to your one sided ignorant posts. i first thought that you were serious. now i believe that you are seriously deluded. you have at no point listened to a word that i have been saying or my beliefs. my final words to you, my friend are these. I want to see a dutch style "freedom party" in the UK. in 10 years the BNP will become that party.

goodbye matamoros.

Posted by: leonthepigfarmer at July 23, 2007 11:44 PM

The BNP co-ordinating with ethnic minorities.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=5313967073906592014

I believe atheling maybe right when he/she said:

Your vehemence and demands to silence people who have grasped onto what could the the last chance for Britain gives me cause to wonder: Are you a Labour or Tory Party member? Mention of the BNP certainly hit a nerve for you.

I would also add to that maybe a journalist or academic. Their co-ordinated lefto-fascist stance against the nationalist parities is well documented in the UK.

Metamoros why dont you accept that the BNP speaks for increasing numbers of people and that their argument is a cogent one in regards to Islamification and maintaining national identity. Although thats probably too intellectually honest for you and instead you will just resort to calling everyone here jack booted brown shirts in your shrill attempts to stifle the debate.

Posted by: km at July 24, 2007 5:54 AM

From what I can see, the BNP is transforming itself to rise to the occasion. It MUST.

You’re right. The BNP used to be a party that supported Arab terrorism against Israel, regarded minorities as second-class citizens, and was vocal about its anti-Semitism.

Now it’s a party that claims to support Israel against Arab terrorism, regards minorities as second-class citizens, and carefully disguises its anti-Semitism as “anti-Zionism”.

That’s real progress. Keep that up, and in a hundred years time its members might even lose the urge to give involuntary Dr Strangelove-like Nazi salutes whenever they think nobody’s watching.

And no, sorry, but I’m not a member of the Tories, Labour or any other political party. But you’re right, the BNP does hit a nerve with me, and apparently with the other 99.3% of British electors who declined to support it at the last election.

Like me, they probably did so not because they are part of some sinister worldwide Marxist-Zionist conspiracy, or because they are Islamist puppets, or because they are liberal self-loathers committed to the destruction of the British nation, or any of the other reasons put forward by BNP supporters to excuse the party’s dismal lack of support.

Nope, they probably did so because, like me, they find the concept of a whites-only, anti-Semitic party adhering to Nazi-era rhetoric on Jewish conspiracies and “traditional racial genotypes” totally beyond the pale in a country that fought long and hard against a regime that avowed those same ideas - Hitler’s Germany .

If I were British, I would turn to the BNP

Don’t fret about not having the BNP to support. The U.S ( I'm assuming you’re American ) has its very own version of Nick Griffin - he’s called David Duke. He covers all the same concerns as the BNP - shadowy Zionist conspiracies, evil Jews running the media, even the same “War for Oil” nonsense.

Strange is it not that the places where "terrorism" abounds are precisely those places which have bountiful amounts of crude! Perhaps Uncle Sam will descend on Africa's largest oilfields to protect the Nigerian infrastructure from "terrorism".

http://www.bnp.org.uk/peakoil/apocalypse.htm

So if you feel you really need to support such ideas, give David Duke a try. I’m sure he’d appreciate it.

Posted by: Matamoros at July 24, 2007 9:19 AM

leonthepigfarmer:
i'm seriously not gonna bother replying to your one sided ignorant posts. i first thought that you were serious. now i believe that you are seriously deluded. you have at no point listened to a word that i have been saying or my beliefs.

I have listened to you, leon. You have stated that you would like the BNP to be like the PVV - a multi-racial party committed to immigration reforms and opposing the rise of Islamism.

I merely pointed out how difficult this would be to achieve in a party that only allows white members. Yet when I mention that fact, and provide a link to the BNP website statement that it only accepts white members, you stomp off in a fit of pique. (Exactly the same way, it must be said, as an Islamist apologist when confronted with the facts about Islamic theology.)

What did I do wrong? You must have known that you supported a whites-only party? Why be so touchy about the fact? You’re not embarrassed by it, surely?

Posted by: Matamoros at July 24, 2007 9:38 AM

matamoros:

Why are you not answering our questions?

Do you still want to have leon banned?

You're the one who ought to be embarassed because your reflexive "SILENCE HIM" reflects YOUR own fascist attitudes.

Again, are you a member of the Tory or Labour Party? Is that why you want to shut down people like Leonthepigfarmer who want to save Britain?

What are you hiding?

Posted by: atheling at July 24, 2007 10:35 AM

km posted:
I believe atheling maybe right when he/she said: Your vehemence and demands to silence people who have grasped onto what could the the last chance for Britain gives me cause to wonder: Are you a Labour or Tory Party member? I would also add to that maybe a journalist or academic. Their co-ordinated lefto-fascist stance against the nationalist parities is well documented in the UK.

I see. Anybody who finds the BNP abhorrent must be a “lefto-fascist” puppet of the Marxist-Zionist New World Order or some other such nonsense. Well, obviously. I mean, what other possible reasons could there be for not supporting it?

The BNP co-ordinating with ethnic minorities.

LOL - what was that? A brief video of Rajinder Singh - an elderly Sikh ex-teacher who has been disowned by every Sikh organisation for his links to the BNP. This is your idea of “co-ordinating”? Tell you what - if the BNP is so proud of him, why not offer him free membership? Oh yeah, I forgot… sorry, bad idea.

Metamoros why dont you accept that the BNP speaks for increasing numbers of people and that their argument is a cogent one in regards to Islamification and maintaining national identity.

The BNP speaks for a tiny minority of individuals, as can be seen from its share of the vote. And its arguments in regards to Islamification are simply an opportunistic leap onto a bandwagon to try and garner support, as Nick Griffin himself admitted:

"We should be positioning ourselves to take advantage for our own political ends of the growing wave of public hostility to Islam currently being whipped up by the mass media. This is not a matter of dancing to neo-con tunes, but of finding members of the public who are already used to the sound of that kind of music willing to cross over and dance to our tune."

As I’ve pointed out, although it claims to oppose Islamism, the BNP’s views actually have much in common with the Islamists: its barely concealed anti-Semitism; its talk of American imperialism and war for oil; even its promotion of the “Mossad carried out 9/11” crap. All taken from the BNP’s very own website.

Although thats probably too intellectually honest for you and instead you will just resort to calling everyone here jack booted brown shirts in your shrill attempts to stifle the debate.

Can you point out which of the many quotes that I’ve posted have been made-up? Can you show me which of the stories that I’ve posted have been false? Can you show me which of the links I’ve added have been fake? Everything that I’ve posted can be backed up in virtually every case by the BNP’s own website. Why are you guys so touchy about people knowing about your views? I’d have thought you’d welcome the publicity?

Posted by: Matamoros at July 24, 2007 10:40 AM

From atheling:
matamoros, why are you not answering our questions?

I’ve answered every question and supposition put to me, including your one about whether I’m a member of any political party. The answer, you’ll recall, was no.

Do you still want to have leon banned?

I didn’t call for any individual poster to be banned. I called for a blanket ban on BNP propaganda being posted in the JW comments, as its rhetoric and image taints the anti-Islamist cause by its very association. And I’m not the only one to see the negative effect that the BNP has:

“Here is the problem. The BNP is doing Allah's work. By being so awful, they are John Simpson's pro-Islamic dream. Just as in France, where "no one" can vote for Le Pen (by "no one" is meant -- well, our sort, the decent sort, the people you can consider to be human beings, etc.), almost "no one" can vote for the BNP.”

That was written by the ever-perceptive Hugh Fitzgerald in a post to Jihadwatch.

http://jihadwatch.org//dhimmiwatch/archives/002268.php

Hold on…. Atheling? I should have realised the significance. Atheling is an Old English term for an Anglo-Saxon nobleman, isn’t it? It sounded vaguely familiar, but I must admit I had to check. No wonder you’re so supportive of the BNP.

Precisely how many supporters of the BNP / David Duke / Aryan Nations type white Anglo-Saxon-oriented organisations post on here? Has anyone ever wondered that?

Posted by: Matamoros at July 24, 2007 11:41 AM

LOL, my surname is derived from "atheling". I'm half white, half Asian. And ALL AMERICAN.

I hope the BNP will evolve in time to save Britain. I have met several new BNP members who feel the same. They are not racist. They are loyal Britons who want to save their country.

You can dream and name call all you want. It's pathetic. Your calls to silence these people only indicate your fascist attitudes.

Posted by: atheling at July 24, 2007 11:53 AM

LOL, my surname is derived from "atheling". I'm half white, half Asian. And ALL AMERICAN.

You do realise, of course, that if you were in Britain then you wouldn't be allowed to join the BNP?

Membership of the British National Party is open to those of British or kindred European ethnic descent. While we welcome contact and co-operation with nationalists and patriots of other races, and with the many non-whites who also oppose enforced multi-racialism, we ask them to respect our right to an organisation of our own, for our own, as we respect and applaud their measures to organise themselves in like fashion.

http://www.bnp.org.uk/shopping/membership.php

You support them, even though they wouldn't permit you join them, and despite the fact that in their version of Britain, you would be reduced to a second-class citizen, similar in many ways to black South Africans under apartheid?

While accepting the right of law-abiding minorities, in our country because they or their ancestors came here legally, to remain here and to enjoy the full protection of the law against any form of harassment or hostility, we will also seek to emphasise the importance of the prior status of the aboriginal people. This would be a national extension of the ‘Sons and Daughters' policy in priority on housing and school places lists which BNP councils seek to implement at local level.

http://www.bnp.org.uk/candidates2005/manifesto/manf4.htm

You describe yourself as half white, half Asian. Are you aware of the BNP's stance against mixed-race relationships and mixed-raced children?

We believe in human diversity and in preserving the individuality and identity of all different ethnic groups. It is sad when a unique human genotype becomes extinct - as has happened around the world in the past and is happening today in the Amazon and in New Guinea. While a small number of mixed marriages – or mixed race children - in Britain won’t, in themselves, make any difference, if this is encouraged however as it is at present by politicians and the media then inevitably the traditional British genotype will be endangered in the long-term.

Environmentalists are always keen to preserve unique animal species in the wild, so why shouldn’t the same principle apply to people? We believe that Britain’s proud history of glorious achievements demonstrates that the British genotype is a valuable one and deserves to be preserved.

http://www.bnp.org.uk/articles/countering_smears.html

Sorry, atheling, but you don't seem to have a clear picture of what exactly the BNP is and what its policies are. All of the above statements are taken direct from the BNP website. If you honestly feel that you personally could live happily in a country whose Govt regarded you in this way, then, well, fair enough. But I bet there's plenty of your friends, relatives and neighbours who'd disagree with you.

Posted by: Matamoros at July 24, 2007 12:34 PM

Matamoros:

I'm not British so I don't care if they won't allow me to join. Britain is not America. They are a different people. If I came from a small island of people whose culture and way of life are in danger of extinction I might take the same extreme route.

Listen, Britain is in deep trouble. There is NO ONE in either dominant party who will save them. No one.

If the BNP is willing to do it, I say to the British people: Go for it!

Posted by: atheling at July 24, 2007 12:56 PM

from atheling:
I'm not British so I don't care if they won't allow me to join

But you’d happily allow people in Britain who are just like you to be treated in the ways that I outlined above? That’s sad.

Listen, Britain is in deep trouble. There is NO ONE in either dominant party who will save them. No one.

And the reason for this state of affairs, atheling, is that for decades the rhetoric and actions of the BNP and its predecessor organisation the National Front have helped to crush the debate on immigration, multiculturalism, national identity and all issues attended to these.

The supporters of these issues have been able to use the simple accusation of “you’re talking like the BNP” to stifle and silence their opponents in mainstream political parties, Parliament and council chambers up and down the country.

Every time some moronic BNP member has been caught giving Nazi salutes, or talking about “wogs” and “pakis” and Jewish conspiracies, or publishing anti-Semitic articles, then the debate moves more in favour of the pro-immigration lobby. And so more immigrants have flooded into Britain, providing the demographic platform that the Islamists have built upon so determinedly.

The BNP has been the greatest ally the mass immigration lobby could have wished for. Now, if we are not careful, it will become the dumb, unwitting ally of the Islamists as well.

I realise that you probably think of me as a “lefto-fascist” for saying this, but it’s the truth. There are many hundreds of thousands - probably several million - people in Britain who are concerned about the rise of Islamism and Islamist terrorism. The overwhelming majority of them would want nothing to do with any contra-Islamist campaign that included the BNP.

But don’t just take my word for it. Here’s a previous thread from Jihadwatch, from a couple of years back. Look at how almost 100% of the British posters - all committed to opposing Islamism - also voice their opposition to the BNP. Could it be possible that all these people are “lefto-fascists”, or is that in fact just the BNP’s term for anyone who opposes it, the way that Islamists smear their opponents as “Islamophobes”?

I’ll leave you to decide:

http://www.jihadwatch.org/dhimmiwatch/archives/004301.php

Posted by: Matamoros at July 24, 2007 1:50 PM

"Look at how almost 100% of the British posters - all committed to opposing Islamism - also voice their opposition to the BNP."

Not so. There are many British posters here who support the BNP and oppose Islamism. Your attempt to use straw man arguments don't work here.

Sorry, but I'm not going to listen to any more of your arguments. You rely on posts from years ago to argue for a situation that has changed. You're the one who is stuck.

What is the alternative? You don't present any. Britain is like a man who has advanced stages of gangrene in one of his extremities. One doctor (the Tory Party) proposes leeching. The other doctor (Labour) proposes assisted suicide. If there is a third doctor who has rightly diagnosed the problem and knows to CUT OFF the offending limb, I'd go with him.

People like you would prefer to watch Britain die. That's sad.

Posted by: atheling at July 24, 2007 3:22 PM

Matamoron:
Your answers are like referring to Abe Lincoln's GOP party in the context of George Bush's GOP party. There has been much de-evolution. The modern BNP has evolved to offer a sane solution to the Islamic cancer that has infected Britain. You and your mainstream party line offers no salvation for Britain.
Your friend across the pond,
Briars

Posted by: Briars at July 24, 2007 10:19 PM

Listen, Britain is in deep trouble. There is NO ONE in either dominant party who will save them. No one.

And the reason for this state of affairs, atheling, is that for decades the rhetoric and actions of the BNP and its predecessor organisation the National Front have helped to crush the debate on immigration, multiculturalism, national identity and all issues attended to these.

Thats a load of rubbish metamoros and you know it, the reason there was no debate on multiculturalism or mass immigration since WWII was simply that the governing powers in Britain considered it to be a good economic policy to allow the mass movement of low paid workers from predominantly 3rd world countries into the country. Your argument that this occured due to the BNP destroying the debate on immigration is facile and as was noted before is nothing but a straw man argument.

This site is about combating global jihad and the BNP have been doing more than their fair share of counter jihad work, they are legally recognized political party and as such this is a legitimate forum in which to bring them up.

Out of interest who do you suggest the people of Britain choose to deal with the problem of Jihad and if you say any of the major parties or UKIP then my suggestion is that you stop visiting this site go down you local mosque and repeat the shahada, because all those parties are doing is facillitating the spread of Islam by following multicultural doctrine.

Posted by: km at July 25, 2007 4:02 AM

km posted:
This site is about combating global jihad and the BNP have been doing more than their fair share of counter jihad work, they are legally recognized political party and as such this is a legitimate forum in which to bring them up.

If the BNP is so committed to “counter jihad work” you’d expect their website to be included along with all the other counter-jihad sites and organisations in the very comprehensive links sidebar on Jihadwatch. Yet somehow the JW team seems to have overlooked them. I wonder why that is?

Oddly enough, a check round other well-known counter-jihad sites - Gates of Vienna, LGF, Western Resistance, Religion of Peace - confirms that they too decline to link to the BNP website. How can this be? How comes none of these sites wishes to show any link whatsoever to the impeccably anti-jihad BNP?*

Is it a Marxist-Zionist conspiracy? A “lefto-fascist” plot? Or is that they grasp that any sign of support - even one as tenuous as a web link - would damage the credibility of both their site and their message?

Besides, how could Jihadwatch support Daniel Pipes, Ayaan Hirsi Ali, Wafic Said, Debbie Schlussel, Walid Shoebat, Melanie Phillips, Ibn Warraq, Michelle Malkin and Ali Sina, and at the same time support an organisation that views these true anti-jihadists as either sinister manipulators or second-class citizens?

*Hold on! I apologise - I have found a website willing to link to the BNP. It's the website of The National Alliance - America's premier white supremacist organisation. So at least have some friends out there.

Posted by: Matamoros at July 25, 2007 11:19 AM

april 2007, daniel pipes recognises that the BNP have become resepectable. click on the link, robert locke does a great article about the BNP.

http://www.danielpipes.org/article/4323

"These are minor issues, to be sure, but insurgent anti-immigrant parties have already emerged in many countries and are beginning to demand not just effective control of borders but the expulsion of illegal immigrants. A nativist movement throughout Europe is forming largely unnoticed beneath our eyes. However meager its record so far, it has huge potential. Parties opposed to immigration and Islam generally have neo-fascist backgrounds but are growing more respectable over time, shedding their antisemitic origins and their dubious economic theories, focusing instead on the questions of faith, demography, and identity, and learning about Islam and Muslims. The British National Party and Belgium's Vlaamse Belang offer two examples of such a move toward respectability, which may one day be followed by electability."

Posted by: leonthepigfarmer at July 25, 2007 2:44 PM

oh and there's a link to the BNP web site under robert lockes article, which is connected and endorsed by daniel pipes.

Posted by: leonthepigfarmer at July 25, 2007 2:45 PM

km, aethling, briars

interesting quote from robert locke, "Given that the British government is known to employ agents provocateurs, given the interest of the British race-relations industry in fabricating or exaggerating incidents to justify its own power, and given the plethora of left-wing groups involved in seeking, stirring up, or faking trouble, one must apply some discount to what one hears about the BNP."

seems like our "agent procateur" has been left with egg on his face after this outstanding article from robert locke and daniel pipes, even a link to the BNP web site!

Posted by: leonthepigfarmer at July 25, 2007 2:50 PM

SLAM DUNK!!!

Posted by: atheling at July 25, 2007 2:55 PM

not only that but the pro BNP, robert locke article is published on;

http://www.think-israel.org/index.html

a jewish israeli run web site!!!

Posted by: leonthepigfarmer at July 25, 2007 3:07 PM

I believe the technical term for what just happened to Metamoros is 'Pwned'

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=pwned

You still didnt answer my question though Met, who do you think should govern Britain in the face of a global jihad and a demographic onslaught that will see muslims the majority in a few generations.

Posted by: km at July 25, 2007 4:01 PM

To clarify: We at Jihad Watch do not support the BNP.

Please refrain from driving threads off-topic with regard to the BNP.

Marisol Seibold
Jihad Watch News Editor

Posted by: MarisolJW at July 25, 2007 5:28 PM

I'll let the Jihad Watch News Editor have the emphatic last word on the subject of the BNP.

Posted by: Matamoros at July 25, 2007 9:35 PM

matamoros, thanks for diverting this post off topic. and odd how you never comment about anything else? this post was about the glasgow airport attack. please do not respond to any more of my posts, nor spread libel about me on this site.

Posted by: leonthepigfarmer at July 26, 2007 1:38 PM