Well, I have to say that their refusal to get their kids vaccinated is perfect Darwinism in action.

Can't say it bothers me much.

===============

"Educating" their women-folk on the other hand, well, you have to take into account what these folks think constitutes an education.

Not having forced all their daughters to memorize the koran is probably a blessing in, well ... burka.

Posted by: joeblough at July 22, 2007 2:21 AM

Dear joeblough,

Have you ever seen a child die from polio? Worse, have you ever seen a child who has survived polio? No rational human being would want to inflict that even on the children of his/her worst enemies. That you can be so callous is disgusting. You also fail to appreciate the world-wide risk of this disease and how it might mutate - we're on to the thirty-first strain since 1950, already, and struggling to keep up with the vaccine. CDC in Atlanta is deeply worried about this sort of response to immunisation as are most health authorities, including our own NHS, in the Western World.

This isn't about Darwinism, whatever you might think about Darwinist Scientific Theory, this is about brutality, and child abuse and violent male supremacy and superstition and sheer blatant anti-Western propaganda being used for powerplay ends. Maulana Fazlullah just wants to be a big fish in a small pond and he'll use any means to achieve that end. The poor credulous peasant villagers who end up following him are our responsibility just as it is our responsibility to eliminate him and his ilk - and by 'our' I mean all those, worldwide, who follow and believe the enlightenment way of Western and Eastern scientific culture.

Millions of illiterate peasants - who should not be illiterate had we done our jobs better - will suffer under the likes of Maulana Fazlullah because we don't have the courage to challenge, and if necessary kill, this idiot type of petty dictator.

But for you to say "Can't say it bothers me much" is quite simply inhuman and disgusting. Your not going to be bothered by the agonising deaths of thousands of children simply because they were born to parents whose religious views you happen to disapprove of? Glad you don't rule Earth. Glad you don't set our standards of behaviour. Glad, above all else, that you don't control the incredibly brave WHO, NHS and CDC teams who are working in that area trying to protect us all - you, me, our wives and our children from a world-wide outbreak of this most horrendous of dieases.

Posted by: Jonathan Ralbrooke at July 22, 2007 2:49 AM

joeblough and Jonathan, greetings,

I agree that this is a tragedy for those young ladies to be left illiterate (indeed, as a hopeless bibliophile myself, the mere thought of illiteracy is horrifying to contemplate), and even worse, to become infected by a horrible PREVENTABLE disease.
But I think I know where you are coming from, joeblough: the Islamic world is full of Maulana Fazlullahs. Such willful, carefully studied primitivism, which is so utterly refractory to reason, is dismaying, to say the least. After getting a heavy enough dose, one wants to just write them off and walk away in disgust.
The problem is that long before any of these people contracted polio, their MINDS were ALREADY INFECTED by Islam.
Notice (once again) that Islam is not only NOT a "religion of peace," but is not a religion at all in the Western sense. Rather, it is a CULT. Muslims are conditioned (brainwashed) to follow the dictates of their (bandit chieftan/homicidal psychopath/thug/child molester) "prophet" from the day they are born. Forever after, any imam, or mullah, or caliph, or mahdi who assumes the role of the "prophet" will automatically command the same blind unreasoning obediance. And so it has been for about one thousand three hundred fifty years. And so it will always be with Islam. Their MINDS are ALREADY INFECTED.

Google You-tube clippings about the Red Mosque in Pakistan.......utterly dismaying.

Posted by: One_of_the_last_few_Patriots_left at July 22, 2007 3:48 AM

By the way, Jonathan, you are entirely correct about the world wide risk. If a strain of polio develops which our vaccines cannot protect against, it could be spread by the thousands of people who travel from Britain to Pakistan (some of them to recieve terrorist training) and back again. Indeed, I would not even be surprised if fanatical Muslims might try to spread it DELIBERATELY. If polio breaks out in the West, watch the Muslims shout "Allahu akhbar!"

Posted by: One_of_the_last_few_Patriots_left at July 22, 2007 3:58 AM

They don't want women educated for good reason. All they need is breeders, stupid, fanatical and submissive, with the value of a goat, to pop out 15 children, each one of them at least 7 sons, for the army of Allah.

That's why we must not support them in any way. The NGO's, the medical aid we provide, the humanitarian aid agencies run mostly by lefties who are obsessed with saving the world and 'making a better day by saving the children'- are mere tools, since their efforts are considered a form of jiziyah, a due that must be paid and received without gratitude, that's about it. Now I'm outa here.

How am I doing mr. Hugh? Did I learn my lesson?

Posted by: sheik yer'mami at July 22, 2007 6:37 AM

Jonathan,
I agree with you. But what are you going to do? Immunize the children at gunpoint? The only practical thing to do is use Muslim teams with vaccines manufactured somewhere in the Muslim world. Otherwise, you simply cannot help someone who refuses to be helped.

To quote Jerry Pournelle: "Think of it as evolution in action."

For that matter, we have parents in the U.S. who because of religious beliefs refuse to let their children be immunized against diseases.

Posted by: jay at July 22, 2007 7:00 AM

No doubt they've seen the results of educating women in ones like Naseem...

Posted by: Timur at July 22, 2007 8:34 AM

BTW, where IS Naseem? I am waiting for her explanations on how Islam can justify children suffering and dying from polio and how her beloved Islam supports the policy of young Pakistani girls denied education. Maybe Naseem and her boot-maker boyfriend are still pulling together a 'blame it on the infidel West' story to justify both of these sickening, ignorant situations in her land of Islam. And, how many billions of dollars in assistance is given to Pakistan each year by Western governments, aid agencies and other do-gooder groups in order to produce such idiots as Maulana Fazullah and his ilk?

Posted by: maryrose at July 22, 2007 10:03 AM

Jonathan Ralbrooke posted:

"Maulana Fazlullah just wants to be a big fish in a small pond and he'll use any means to achieve that end. The poor credulous peasant villagers who end up following him are our responsibility just as it is our responsibility to eliminate him and his ilk - and by 'our' I mean all those, worldwide, who follow and believe the enlightenment way of Western and Eastern scientific culture."

As a precondition to Western aid they must embrace Western culture. Then I have no problem with this statement.

BTW: Isn't running a radio station Unislamic? Why do we let these types pick and choose what Western things they'll keep and what they'll discard? How tough can it be to knock him off the air?

Posted by: freedomschool at July 22, 2007 10:30 AM

"Fazlullah got a befitting response from parents in the area after he declared girls' schooling un-Islamic."

On what grounds does he declare female education "unislamic"?

Many Muslims quote a hadith, "“The pursuit of knowledge is incumbent on every Muslim, male and female” in defense of the claim that in Islam women are entitled to an education.

Does anyone know which Islamic sources the Taliban or clerics like this, cite to the contrary?

Posted by: Caroline at July 22, 2007 11:33 AM

Jonathan Ralbrooke wrote:

"The poor credulous peasant villagers who end up following him are our responsibility ... ."

"Millions of illiterate peasants - who should not be illiterate had we done our jobs better - ... ."

Please elaborate: What is the obligation on our part that gives rise to this responsibility you claim?

Posted by: sheik yer booty at July 22, 2007 12:05 PM

What is the cure for this fast spreading infection called Islam?

Posted by: Isabellathecrusader at July 22, 2007 12:31 PM

What is the cure for this fast spreading infection called Islam?
Posted by: Isabellathecrusader [TypeKey Profile Page] at July 22, 2007 12:31 PM

Banning Muslim immigration, banning Islam and defending the West's Judeao-Christian heritage.

Posted by: Elric66 at July 22, 2007 12:38 PM

But for you to say "Can't say it bothers me much" is quite simply inhuman and disgusting. Your not going to be bothered by the agonising deaths of thousands of children simply because they were born to parents whose religious views you happen to disapprove of?

Posted by: Jonathan Ralbrooke

Its a bit more than disapproving of a religious view.

Posted by: Elric66 at July 22, 2007 1:23 PM

Mr. Ralbrooke,

Although I agree with you in principal, the Islamic world declared war on us 1400 years ago and continually ever since. It is regrettable, but we should not be aiding the enemy in any fashion until unconditional surrender is achieved. War, after all, is hell.

Posted by: Sheik er' Bouti at July 22, 2007 2:01 PM

If Muslims girls got an education, they would see through the colossal fraud played upon them by Muslim men.

Can't have that.

Women must be kept too ignorant to object.

Islam, the slave-making religion.

Starting with the girls.

Posted by: profitsbeard at July 22, 2007 2:19 PM

Ordinarily one insult is enough for me to terminate and ignore a line of correspondence. Since so many seem to be engaged with the issue raised I'll make a small exception here.

But be clear on this, I think I am owed an apology.

Irrational, "callous" etc... Jonathan Ralbrooke, you don't know me. And I reject the judgement. It's both baseless and irrelevant.

Your not going to be bothered by the agonising deaths of thousands of children simply because they were born to parents whose religious views you happen to disapprove of?

This is a baseless and idiotic insult, probably intended to inspire me with some feeling of guilt.

You have no idea how I feel about "the agonising deaths of thousands of children" and have no right to make assertions about a subject you know absolutely nothing about.

I have no reason to accept the condemnation. Certainly I find none in your comments.

==============

To go on to substance:

No rational human being would want to inflict that even on the children of his/her worst enemies.

I am not inflicting, nor do I want to inflict anything here. I'm not the one condemning these people to poverty, disease and ignorance.

I categorically reject the implications.

There is a serious confusion here about responsibility.

Not rescuing somebody is not the same as injuring them.

But it goes deeper than that...

=============================================

Everything the west does to defend itself from the jihaddis, and I include simply arguing the position that we should is a part of the defense of the free world, improves the chances that those unfortunates might someday lead normal decent lives.

And I do a fair amount of arguing that position.

Anybody who supports the counter-jihad is doing plenty to help those celebrated unfortunates. (And in the regard, Robert and Hugh and the gang are true moral heroes).

But be clear on this, defeating the jihaddis might very well entail incinerating those very children who we are so worried about catching polio, in a nuclear fireball.

What do we say then?

The US contributed mightily to the long term well being of millions of Japanese, by incinerating 100's of thousands of other Japanese, in its own defense.

===========

The US did not end the war, protect American lives, and set Japan on the path to some of the greatest wealth and quality of life the world has ever seen, by sending the Red Cross to Nagasaki and Hiroshima to inoculate the children against polio and open free schools.

=============================================

So lets get real here and talk about the truth.

And by the way, I have real personal connections with Nagasaki and Hiroshima. I go there from time to time. I know plenty of people that were affected one way or another. (It goes deeper than that but that's nobody else's business).

And believe me, the moral and emotional dimensions of confronting the fact that a great moral justice was served by destroying something so beautiful and precious as those two cities is serious business!

It's not something a lot of people have to confront directly.

So don't let's get too vocal about how I feel about anything.

And let's leave off the fly-weight kindergarten altruism.

Posted by: joeblough at July 22, 2007 2:27 PM

Oh and BTW, thanks to them what took my meaning correctly.

Posted by: joeblough at July 22, 2007 2:35 PM

Apparently the main reason why it is "unislamic" for girls to be educated is that it violates the rules of "purdah", as indicated in this previous article about Maulana Fazlullah:

http://www.wunrn.com/news/2007/05_07/05_28_07/060307_pakistan.htm

"For months, using a pirated radio channel, Mr. Fazlullah had warned locals against sending their girls to school, calling it un-Islamic and a violation of purdah, the religiously mandated confinement of women away from public scrutiny.

"A woman has been asked to remain behind the four walls of the house. Men have been given preference by God," Fazlullah explains in an interview on the banks of the Swat River, where he is building a madrassah, or religious school."

But I don't think there is actually anything in islam itself which prohibits female education, so theoretically, even this imam would have to permit home schooling of girls by a female tutor.

Posted by: Caroline at July 22, 2007 3:56 PM

On the other hand, I suppose this guy would argue that the tutor isn't supposed to leave her house either. But I believe that even by the strictest interpretation of Sharia, a woman can leave her house with her husband's or father's consent, as long as she is accompanied by a male (a mahram). So what is to stop girls from gathering together at someone's house (walked there by say a father or brother) and then being educated by a female tutor who is walked there by her husband? Granted, this is still ridiculous, but even by the strictest interpretation of Sharia law it seems that women ought to be able to get around "purdah" as an obstacle to getting an education.

Posted by: Caroline at July 22, 2007 4:06 PM

The real reason these Islamic thug-mullahs preach against all education (except madrassa for boys, where they're indoctrinated into hate-&-fight Islam) is that they have the prestige and power in their communities. When everybody's illiterate, you can take all the liberties you want with the truth, slant everything so that it becomes a religious duty for the peons to do what you tell them; voila! the local imam is Allah's little demi-god.

Posted by: A_Nonny_Mouse at July 22, 2007 5:12 PM

Surely Fazlullah knows his declaration that the polio vaccine causes infertility is false. The 50+ year track record of this miracle vaccine is there for all to read. Of course if you're illiterate then you must believe what others tell you. The threat or rumor of infertility amoung uneducated muslim women will be enough to shut this program down in rural Pakistan, in my opinion. Do they think the humanitarian teams are just a conspiracy to sterilize them?
As seen many times before, Isalm bites the hand that feeds them, or in this case, heals them. The attacks on the anti-polio teams just boggles my western mind.
My good friend from elemntary school was a polio survivor. He had to endure several painful operations on has spine and legs. His hips were twisted sideways, he had heavy metal braces on both legs, and relied on crutches to get around. All his classes had to be on the ground floor because stairs were too much of an obstacle.
When polio becomes an epidemic in Pakistan and works it ravages on these ignorant people, who do think will be called on to help?

Posted by: vztech at July 22, 2007 5:44 PM

A_Nonny_mouse - which is why I think the Muslim "feminists" are correct in pointing out that Muslim women themselves need to become more acquainted with their own texts so as to know where to draw the line. For example, in this instance, if local Muslim women were themselves better educated even in Islamic law, they could cry "foul" against this cleric that there is nothing in Islam which actually mandates against Muslim females getting an education. As a sidebar, here, it may actually be the case that they are only entitled to an Islamic education, rather than to an education more generally, but still, at the very least, Muslim females, as I understand it, are entitled to an education in Islam and if they got such, they would understand (again as I understand it) that it is purdah law which is preventing their education, rather than anything in Islam per se.

Which would mean that they would have to become educated about purdah and what Sharia law (from the islamic texts) does or does not permit in terms of a woman leaving her house.

In other words, even if a woman's education were entirely restricted to the study of islam, Muslim women would find that Islam indeed gives them more rights than these opportunistic clerics would like to admit.

I'm not defending islam by saying that. But certainly many people understand that freeing Muslim women is a major key to transforming Islam, so where Sharia law can be most liberally interpreted, we should side with that understanding and aid Muslim feminists in their fight against these sorts of totally misogynistic clerics.

In this case, I believe the cleric is actually wrong. As I understand it (and I may be wrong but noone has stepped forward to provide any other information) - there is nothing "unislamic" about female Muslims getting an education. This cleric's stance is based entirely on "purdah". But if one reads Islamic sharia as derived from the Koran and hadiths, as draconian as it is, I see nothing there to prevent females from leaving their homes, as long as it is with the permission and blessing and accompaniment - in travel - of their male mahrams, and attending an all-girl school, taught by a female teacher. (And if the public school is deemed to be "too much" - then said classes could still be held at private homes).

I agree here with the Muslim feminists that Muslim women need to know their rights and push for them.

And I am also puzzled why mainstream Western Muslim organizations don't make a big deal about this and publicly denounce this imam and issue statements to the effect that Muslim girls are entitled to an education. Why aren't mainstream western Muslim organizations, ensconced as they are in the safety of the west, taking the forefront at promoting the most liberal interpretations towards Muslim women out there?

Or maybe they are and I've merely missed it?

Posted by: Caroline at July 22, 2007 6:06 PM

Jonathan Ralbrooke
"This isn't about Darwinism ... this is about brutality, and child abuse and violent male supremacy and superstition and sheer blatant anti-Western propaganda being used for powerplay ends... The poor credulous peasant villagers who end up following him are our responsibility just as it is our responsibility to eliminate him and his ilk - and by 'our' I mean all those, worldwide, who follow and believe ... Western and Eastern scientific culture. Millions of illiterate peasants ... will suffer under the likes of Maulana Fazlullah because we don't have the courage to challenge, and if necessary kill, this idiot type of petty dictator."
- - - - - -

You're saying that I am supposed to be my brother's keeper, even though my brother is willing to kill me to keep me away from him and his family? That strikes me as at least as difficult as trying to impose western-style democracy in Iraq. You want us to kill every thug-mullah in Pakistan? Aghanistan? Somalia? Every place the mullahs have told their Muslim sheeple that we're trying to sterilize them or give them AIDS or whatever lies they can come up with... so that we can fulfill our alleged "responsibility" to these poor souls who by accident of birth are poor and Islamic?

I applaud your generosity of spirit toward your fellow man. I agree that the plight of these poor villagers is hearbreaking. However, I don't agree it's my responsibility to fix what their society has imposed on them. This may indeed be about Darwinism: societies struggle to survive and grow just as individuals do; the values adopted by a society affect how well it adapts in a changing world. I believe that Islam is (ultimately) doomed, but its top-down authoritarian format makes it efficient; it will never run out of "foot soldiers" for the cause. Islam as it currently exists must die or transform before these marginal societies can progress, but it has to change from within; I don't know how we can force that to happen.

Posted by: A_Nonny_Mouse at July 22, 2007 6:33 PM

Jonathan and joeblough - you guys are bickering back and forth about our "responsibility". My sense is that joeblough is correct here!

No - of course this is not our responsibility, in the sense that we can be blamed for what is going on nor is it our responsibility to prevent what is going on! But that doesn't mean that as individuals, we can't try to figure out what we can personally do to ameliorate the situation! And feeling that we should voluntarily try to do what we can to ameliorate the situation is not the same thing as being either responsible for the situation itself NOR actually responsible for ameliorating the situation.

We are neither. The individual sense that one ought to TRY to do what one can to ameliorate the situation, is something entirely different from the options presented.

Posted by: Caroline at July 22, 2007 7:05 PM

Caroline, whatever we do, the Islamic world will hate us. we arent their caretakers even though our leaders think we are. We owe the Islamic world not a damn thing.

Posted by: Elric66 at July 22, 2007 7:38 PM

"No rational human being would want to inflict that even on the children of his/her worst enemies."

I think this statement is characteristic of today's sick, overly-PC thinking. (Sorry Jonathan, I'm sure your'e a great guy). I say 'sick', because it is a of moral blindness. I used to have it myself. You know: 'oh, murder is society's fault, not really the perp's' etc.

I have been cured of it by seeing how the jihadis and their mainstream islamic supporters exploit this worldview: victim blaming, US blaming, Israel blaming, and how the west buys into it by constant self-blaming.

I've had it with this worldview. It's NOT my fault, or yours, if idiot imams scare idiot villagers out of getting vaccinations. It's NOT my fault, or yours, if these poor children end up getting polio. Yes, we might be able to do something, but it's still not our fault if for our own reasons, we don't or can't do anything.

It's the IMAM's fault that he is preventing vaccination and education. Let's get that clear.

Re the 'Darwin' joke - if only! As far as I can see, the main problem is that these ignorant, impoverished people are constantly breeding. The fittest survive? Fittest, in this context, means mean those who keep their heads down under the islamic yoke. Education doesn't come into it.

Our worldview of independent, thinking people isn't for survival under bullies. Either we protect people against these bullies, or we step back and let the bullies dominate. Can't have it both ways. But it's still not our fault when the bullies take over.

Posted by: Lili at July 22, 2007 7:41 PM

From A_Nonny_Mouse:

The real reason these Islamic thug-mullahs preach against all education (except madrassa for boys, where they're indoctrinated into hate-&-fight Islam) is that they have the prestige and power in their communities. When everybody's illiterate, you can take all the liberties you want with the truth, slant everything so that it becomes a religious duty for the peons to do what you tell them; voila! the local imam is Allah's little demi-god.

Absolutely. I agree completely.

This is the center of the issue and the real reason, I am convinced, that the koran etc... are advertised as being the final immutable truth about life.

Having memorized those damned books and the associated commentary is a license to push people around and do as you please.

There is a whole entrenched ruling class struggling to protect their prerogatives. And I think the fantasy of becoming such a well protected thug is the dream and aspiration that drives most of their supporters and the quietly subordinate population.

=================

Also to A_Nonny_Mouse and Caroline regarding responsibility, I concur.

Posted by: joeblough at July 22, 2007 7:46 PM

I had a friend who had polio. He walked on crutches most of his life. One leg dangled shorter than the other. Eventually, through the will to power he threw away those crutches and walked upright without help. He limped, but he made his way through life with dignity. Unfortunately, he died of death by misadventure. But, thats not the point. My first look at his affliction was enough to alert me to the horror of polio. You don't wish that on anyone. Not if your human.

Posted by: breezy55 at July 22, 2007 11:14 PM

These masses of "simple Pakhtuns" don't seem to recognize that their marriage and breeding practices (in particular, cousin marriage, common throughout Islamic cultures) are producing increasing numbers of children with birth defects every generation.

They don't seem to care that their refusal to inoculate their children with vaccines used all over the world damn huge numbers of them to illness, disfigurement, disability, and death.

It seems irrelevant to them that their feeding practices damage their chances at healthy families(women and children usually eat, as BBC reporter Kate Adie put it in her autobiography, the "smeared leavings" of the men's plates); that their view of education as limited to Koran parroting by men will condemn them to the mud huts they've been living in since time began; that casual but Koranic domestic and public violence causes misery, fear, and stress throughout the family and society.

None of this matters, because all is as Allah wills.

I can't but imagine that every now and then someone there -- some one person -- has the thought, "There has to be something better than this."

Posted by: Marwan'sDaughter at July 22, 2007 11:48 PM

Accem:

I know what islam has done. It's only too clear. I cry no tears for satan, because I don't believe in satan. But, watching a friend deal with a disease so debilitating; kind of warped my perception. Regardless, of what will happen in the future regarding these children's indoctrination. I can't condone such cold blooded thinking. Even though, I know it's right. There lies my dilemma, I can't make the step into nihilism.

Posted by: breezy55 at July 22, 2007 11:57 PM

Accem Ezimota,

It is a dilemma, because as a Christian I do have empathy for these people. But if one of them was running towards one of my kids with a gun poised to shoot them, I wouldn't think twice about taking them out first. Perhaps we've been in some delusional peace for so long that we need to sit down and contemplate what our limits are on different casualties. I must admit I fear for the average person in Iraq once our troops pull out. But is that a good enough reason for our guys to stay over there and risk getting killed? What kind of massive slaughter will there be once we are gone, and will I be responsible for it? I don't know, but I don't think so since we've been over there such a long time and Democracy and Democratic values just don't seem to stick, especially since Sharia law has been enshrined in the Iraqi constitution.

Would I be responsible for getting bit by a rattlesnake if I decided to move into a snake infested area and set up camp in the summer and walk around in my flip flops in the middle of the night? Probably so, if I knew the risks and ignored them and went in there anyway. Since we've seen what happens when Muslims who love Islam are left to themselves to spread it and we've seen the corresponding misery that is perpetrated on other Muslims and non-Muslims who get in their way, I think it's time to get out of the hellholes and let the chips fall where they may.

Isn't it ironic though, that the liberals who are so bent on the rest of us acting politically correct when it comes to dealing with Muslims are the same people who are so desperate to get us out of Iraq? I wonder what they will say about the peace loving Muslims after the Sunni/Shi'ite bloodbath begins, over there.

Posted by: Isabellathecrusader at July 23, 2007 12:00 AM

allah wills. That is the crux.

Posted by: breezy55 at July 23, 2007 12:01 AM

Isabella:

I, too would shoot first and ask questions later. I agree. Thank you.

Posted by: breezy55 at July 23, 2007 12:18 AM

Isabella:

One last thing. You remind me of my mother.

Posted by: breezy55 at July 23, 2007 12:56 AM

Were "we" to suddenly declare "All black people must now wear beekeeper suits" we would be justifiably decried as racists; but Muslims seek to keep half the human race in a form of enslavement and, because it is all in the name of religion, many see it as perfectly okay. Amazing. I need to go ride a dirt bike for three hours just to pound my disgust at the stupidity of it all out of my mind. :(

Posted by: desertdawg29palms at July 23, 2007 1:05 AM

Just don't screw the pooch desertdawg. We need you.

Posted by: breezy55 at July 23, 2007 1:15 AM

Life!

Posted by: breezy55 at July 23, 2007 1:26 AM

Inshallah indeed.

Perhaps it's more right to imagine someone thinking, "There has to be a God better than this."

Posted by: Marwan'sDaughter at July 23, 2007 1:36 AM

Assalamau Laikum all,

Why is Fazlullah saying this? He should forgo polio vaccine to his family and those of his uncle/aunt nephews,nieces etc....if he really wants to...he should leave the rest to "take their chances" with the vaccine. Fazlullah believes that any antibodes required to counteract the virus are found in mother's breast milk.

Essentially Fazlullah is thinking about cleansing muslim blood, in this process he believes that some childrens may suffer ...but Allah T'allah knows best....after which all will be fine with healthy non-sterile muslimas.

His information not to vaccinate is on the grounds that "it is a lesser of two evils to sacrifice two, three, four, five, even ten children than allow hundreds of thousands or possibly millions of girl-childrens likely to be rendered infertile."

Look back at history...the native American Indian was not defeated by Amerike guns alone.....he used syphilis, whiskey and disinformation (in that order) to get his way. The Spanish did the same to conquer Southern Americas.

Then he turned to the Koran for further proof....The Apostle of God (PBUH) said: `There will come a time for my people when there will remain nothing of the Qur'an except its outward form and nothing of Islam except its name and they will call themselves by this name even though they are the people furthest from it. The mosques will be full of people but they will be empty of right guidance. The religious leaders (Fuqaha) of that day will be the most evil religious leaders under the heavens; sedition and dissension will go out from them and to them will it return.' " -ibn Babuya, Thawab ul-A'mal

All these momentous events are to be preceded by warnings and announcements attempting to bring people back to the religion of Allah (SWT) and the Straight Path, after they have divided themselves into factions and sects which, "disown each other and curse each other" (surah 29:25).

He said that he did not want to be an empty leader....but one who has Islam 4 life...bringing the peoples back from the brink!

The other point is a question of trust....who and where do the vaccines come from. Fazlullah said "what if we clerics were to produce a vaccine of some sort that the West were in desperate need of.... and we gave it to them freely..... would the kaffur willingly take it?....this is a question of trust!

One rumor that surfaced during the start of Operation Iraqi Freedom was the US soldiers' sunglasses could see through women's clothing!...I mean that's disgusting!

Obvioulsy no inocullation has consequences, I think I am right in saying that that you could have a carrier who does not show signs of the disease...Think about it.. if someone sneezes you can catch a cold... what happens when a polio infected/carrier person acts as a suicide bomber?

There's gonna be polio flying everywhere!!!! ...that's gory!

Just to clear something that Caroline said "I believe that even by the strictest interpretation of Sharia, a woman can leave her house with her husband's or father's consent, as long as she is accompanied by a male (a mahram)".

Normally she is allowed to travel upto 40 miles from home without a mahram. Sharia Lite would increase this limit to a generous 400 miles (a 10 fold increase in freedom).

Posted by: Naseem at July 23, 2007 8:05 AM

"There's gonna be polio flying everywhere!!!! ...that's gory!""

....yep, and those that have been vaccinated will live, while those who have refused to be vaccinated will die...

....All Americans have been vaccinated...if the Muslim polio suicide terrorist wants to die a slow polio death...so be it...

Posted by: exsgtbrown at July 23, 2007 8:32 AM

Naseem:

Are you really just that stupid!

Posted by: breezy55 at July 23, 2007 9:24 AM

NASEEM isn't stupid but a belief in the meanderings mind of a perverted sex offender has made her stupid. and thats exactly how the mad mullahas of porki stan want their women( and men) to be ignorant, stupid, sheep who can be led by them. history has shown that all tyrants, dictators, despots want their people to be stupid and uneducated.

Posted by: desidude at July 23, 2007 9:47 AM

This is not entirely congruent with the article, but I just wanted to post something that might cheer people up a bit--it's an old MadTV sketch (ah, I miss those days...)
Anyway, here it is:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TS4v_kj9rw4

Posted by: GetBornAgain at July 23, 2007 9:54 AM

One rumor that surfaced during the start of Operation Iraqi Freedom was the US soldiers' sunglasses could see through women's clothing!...I mean that's disgusting.

No comment. Just repeating for emphasis.

His information not to vaccinate is on the grounds that "it is a lesser of two evils to sacrifice two, three, four, five, even ten children than allow hundreds of thousands or possibly millions of girl-childrens likely to be rendered infertile."

Posted by: A_Plague_on_Both_Houses at July 23, 2007 10:16 AM

"Pakistani villages compete with one another to stop education of girls"

...some countries have strange national sports...

Ban Muslim immigration

Posted by: exsgtbrown at July 23, 2007 10:58 AM

Regarding Maulana Fazlullah stopping the villagers from getting Muslim children vaccinated against polio, his Indian counterparts in the states of Bihar and Utter Pradesh did the same. They stopped the polio vaccinations on identical grounds: that the polio vaccinations are a Jewish / Christian/Hindu conspiracy to make Muslim boys impotent. Whereas the Hindus and Christian parents welcomed the free vaccinations, the Muslims raised a hue-n-cry and stopped the health workers from giving the polio drops to Muslim kids.

This was all reported widely in Indian media - - but the secular, Islamophile, government quietly allowed the Muslims to get away with this. Then same happened in Kashmir where the Muslims raised the same objection - - again, the Muslim appeasing Indian government succumbed to the retrograde Islamic mullahs.

BTW: this whole anti-polio vaccination affair originated with a fatwa issued by the deobandi school of Islam in Utter Pradesh in India.

Posted by: Magus Incognito at July 23, 2007 2:00 PM

Nassem wrote:

"The other point is a question of trust....who and where do the vaccines come from. Fazlullah said "what if we clerics were to produce a vaccine of some sort that the West were in desperate need of.... and we gave it to them freely..... would the kaffur willingly take it?....this is a question of trust!"'

This apparently will never be tested because not ONE vaccine has EVER been developed in the Muslim world.

This is the price the muslim world will pay for keeping the population ignorant and submissive. The best minds have to leave muslim states because the quest for knowlegde is squashed in muslim countries.

Islamic doctrine is full of sayings about killing non-muslims. Billions, yes billions of third world people have been saved horrible suffering and death by vaccines developed by Christians and Jews. (i.e., the West). What has the muslim world accomplished in this respect? Forget that, don't answer it becuase all muslims can come up with are empty excuses. It's probably some conspiracey to keep the muslims down...blah, blah, blah.

Posted by: never_submit at July 23, 2007 2:22 PM

Naseem,

If, as Maulana Fazlullah says, Islam forbids the education of women, doesn't his position violate Islam's own traditions? Muslim tradition holds that while Muhammed was uneducated, his wife Khadijah was highly educated as well as an independent businesswoman in her own right.

Since Muhammed declared Khadijah to be one of history's four perfect women, then a devout Muslim like yourself, could argue that Islamic tradition requires the education of women so they may emulate the perfect Khadijah. It could also be argued that Muslims should forbid the education of men so they can better emulate the illiterate Muhammed.

Posted by: Provoslavni at July 23, 2007 4:22 PM

On Fox news, The Factor had a segment with two guests, ne was a old Clinton "adviser", and the other was Peter Beinart.

He , a current, or former(?) senior fellow at C.F.R. , was stating we should be building schools there, to counter the current islamic schools in Pak.

If you get a chance, try to see the repete segment.

He also wrote..

http://www.amazon.com/Good-Fight-Liberals-Liberals-Can-America/dp/B000MGAHXC/ref=pd_bbs_2/104-8116970-5229524?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1185247194&sr=8-2

I think I will leave the bike, and go walking in the dark.

Posted by: Islofob IS-1 at July 24, 2007 12:21 AM

Assalamau Laikum karyakarta92,

Sala...why do you get so personal...what have we muslims ever done to you?

This thread is about polio vaccine...and nothing to do with 9/11

Trace your footsteps in your ancestory karya....somewhere in there your uncle or auntie will have taken the shahada and seen the light of Islam...you granddaughters may do so too.... inshallah!

Posted by: Naseem at July 24, 2007 4:24 AM

Not likely in this one's ancestry. The Irish aren't known for bowing to any one and most Latinos are of the Catholic persuasion.

As for what Muslims have done in this world. Do you need a list? It'd take a book to write down all the crimes committed in the name of Islam. And I'd have to keep updating the book every week just to keep up.

What have Muslims done indeed.

Posted by: Beren at July 24, 2007 4:38 AM

What is the heavenly reward you would ask?

An early ignorant death.

Now thats pure Islam.

Posted by: Dar al-harb at July 24, 2007 1:45 PM

I thought i stepped in something but nope it's just Naseem keeps polishing that turd.

Ignorance begats ignorance.See islam for the perfect definition of ignorance.

Naseem you are a tool.

Islam lite?
Sharia lite?

How about Islam zero and sharia zero?

Posted by: Dar al-harb at July 24, 2007 2:04 PM

Looks like somebody deleted my previous post,
but apparently not those hateful posts by Nasseem, the fat/ugly "Admaddiyah widow from Lahore". And, I am well acquainted with the "moderation" of the Ahmaddiyahs. They assassinated a Hindu monk, Swami Shraddhananda
in a courthouse in India, simply because he was
attempting dialogue with muslims, trying to make them see the light and undertake "Shuddhi" or purification.
This is obvious deception. I know for a fact that Naseem is a name that both men/women take among muslims in the Indian sub-continent, like Teri
or Geri. This Naseem character is clearly a fanatic muslim immigrant male to either the U.S/U.K/Canada who is needling you guys with his feigned accent and deriving some perverse islamic pleasure by doing the same.
And, i'm not upset with Naseem's stupid comments about my family tree. I am a Brahmin - descending from an lineage that is unpolluted by Islam and never will be. Naseem, you can yell your guttural
"ya allah"s from your sleeper cell in the west when India nukes Pakistan & Bangladesh.
That day is not too far off in the future.
We'll see for ourselves.

Posted by: karyakarta92 at July 24, 2007 8:34 PM

karyakarta92 I second your comment I know that one day our sacred hindu/indian lands of west and east india will be rid of these islamo monsters. I hope that true indians hindu/sikh/jain/buddhist will rise up, by taking the example of Rama and Rrishna and throw these arab loving mooslimes out of our lands. Let the gujraat anti mooslime riots be an example of what happens when we are pushed too far.

Posted by: desidude at July 24, 2007 9:50 PM

Karyakarta92 & Desidude,

India needs to stop giving special privileges to Muslims and quit appeasing Pakistan, which is a paper tiger anyway. Remember how fast the Pakis surrendered East Bengal to the Indian army. Let's pray that India will soon have the real leadership to crush Pakistan and apply the same measures to Indian Muslims that they did to you when they were in charge. This will give them the incentive to abandon Islam for a religion natural to India.

Hinduism, Buddhism, Jainism, Sikhism, Zoroastrianism and the ancient Assyrian Christianity of Kerala are all natural to Indian culture. Except for the Ismailis (who aren't really Muslims anyway), Islam is alien to the Indian personality. I lived in India for several years and my wife is Hindu/Buddhist while I'm devoutly Byzantine Christian. We have no conflicts. The kind of intercommunal harmony represented by my family is simply not possible with Islam. It's past time that the Indian government realizes this and starts representing true Bharat, not its foreign conquerors.

Jai Hind!

Posted by: Provoslavni at July 24, 2007 11:58 PM

Assalamau Laikum Karyakarta92,Desidude,Provoslavni

So Karya...you are a bramin eh!!!...the scum of the hindoo castes....the "pure learned" caste close to god (reminds me of the Taliban) who stabs everyone in the back.

The bramin who leaves defence to the Khatri, farming to the jat, building to the sikh and he himself goes around in dhoti begging for food....is that what you do karya!!!!...even in the Amerike...who presses your dhoti Karya?

Let's not forget your ancestor "Gangu bramin" who worked in the Sikh Guru Gobind's Singh's kitchen ...and then sold his two youngest childrens over to muslims.....all for a few gold coins....are you proud of him Karya?

The story goes that the imam of the muslim court said it was against Islam to kill childrens....but that the mantri of the Islamic court ...who was also a brahmin (surprise surprise)....and persuaded the Wasir Khan to kill them.

All you peoples here talk about the deception of the muslim...but the real master of deception and the born coward is the brahmin.

You should be pleased to have muslims amongst you to ...showing you algebra, astronomy and flat earth policy.

If the modern world is not compatible with Islam....the modern world should change....Allah T'allah SWT central to our lives (mine and yours) will be fullfilling!

Allah Hafiz

Posted by: Naseem at July 25, 2007 4:50 AM

Of course the Muslims didn't even create Algebra, the pre-Islamic Babylonians did, followed by pre-Islamic Egyptians who built on it, after that the pre-Islamic Indians further refined it, and later the Chinese and Greeks.

All the Muslims did was take the elements from all of these far greater civilizations and translate the Greek writings.

The same civilizations innovated in the fields of astronomy and again were the basis of the Muslim ideas.

As for the flat Earth theory, well that was disproven by scientists willing to question the ideals of their time, Ptolemy, Macrobius, and other great western minds.

It's not the modern world that is incompatible with the writings of Islam. The very nature of the world it self destroys the belief.

Posted by: Beren at July 25, 2007 5:11 AM

Isabellathecrusader,

"Isn't it ironic though, that the liberals who are so bent on the rest of us acting politically correct when it comes to dealing with Muslims are the same people who are so desperate to get us out of Iraq? I wonder what they will say about the peace loving Muslims after the Sunni/Shi'ite bloodbath begins, over there."

They will say the same thing they said when they got us to pull our troops out of vietnam. After the north slaughtered the south, the liberals didn't say a damn thing. Liberals say they are for peace, but don't seem to realise that peace needs to be fought for. It doesn't come to you on a silver platter.

Posted by: mrockroll1969 at July 25, 2007 6:22 AM

Yes, I am an Indian, a Hindu and a Brahmin and proud to be so. I can comprehend your particular hatred of Brahmins because you failed to convert us over 1300 years of tyranny/force/fraud/allurement.
Note the exemplary animosity towards Hindus, Brahmins especially - for being the intellectual
class who actually *think* and *analyse*
beyond the dhimmi garbage regurgitated by the
politically correct mainstream media.

It is pislam that is the scum of the earth.
I pity you for worshipping a paranoid schizophrenic pedophile like Muhammad. How can any rational or spiritual person revere a pervert who raped 9 year old Ayesha and was aroused/copulated with his own daughter-in-law, Zainab. Even the most primitive tribal societies
consider that taboo.
And, do you seriously expect anybody in their right mind to believe pislam's ridiculous claims
of inventing algebra/calculus/astronomy etc.
Pislam has invented nothing useful and contributed nothing to the advancement of human civilization, except of course, if you consider that female genital mutilation & circumcision
& halal slaughter of human beings/animals is an achievement.
You're living in a fool's paradise, hallucinating about Muslim bravery & Hindu "cowardice".
How is it then, that we Brahmins/Hindus thrashed you bloody pakis in every war that you foolishly
incited ? Is it because islamic bravery lies in sodomising defenseless children, raping and converting women and slaughtering peaceful/unarmed/non-combatant civilans by their millions. Is it because islamic bravery lies in exploding bombs in mass transit systems to butcher ordinary people commuting to work ?
In a way, your pislamic delusions work to our advantage. Let's wait and see how your "brave muslims" fare when they idiotically attack the Indian army the next time.

Posted by: karyakarta92 at July 25, 2007 11:59 AM