Cue the ululations, it's "anti-backlash" jihad time.

For once, Muslims will have to learn to live within infidel cultural norms, rather than vice versa.

Posted by: special_guest at July 27, 2007 5:33 PM

I'm sure CAIR will have have something to say about this obvious injustice toward the religion of peace.

Posted by: DownWithIslam at July 27, 2007 5:33 PM

For once, Muslims will have to learn to live within infidel cultural norms, rather than vice versa. -Posted by: special_guest

No. It appears that the school district simply accomodated this group by adding another lunch period convenient for that prayer schedule.

Unless there were multiple lunch periods within identical time slots during the previous years, this is still a case of infidel appeasement wrapped in semantics.

Posted by: justamomof4 at July 27, 2007 5:39 PM

This is why people homeschool. Absolutely sickening. And yet they won't allow Christians to pray?

Where are all the atheists who brought lawsuits to eliminate school prayer? Why aren't they up in arms about this?

Hypocrites!

Posted by: atheling at July 27, 2007 5:43 PM

Re-read the article.

They are not stopping 'class time' they are rescheduling and making an extra 'lunch time'. It is the same thing.

How many of the public schools in this area have 'two' lunch periods. If 'two' is normal then ok, if 'two' is not normal then it is accomidating the muslims.

The only differance is the 'same genger' class is getting cancelled.

No change in public school, move along.

Posted by: alaskan1000 at July 27, 2007 5:51 PM

Greetings:

A pertinent analogy would be the Catholic parochial school system, which was set up so that the children of Catholics would be educated within their own religious values. It worked and continues to work very well.

The only drawback to wider implementation was the fact that the Catholics coulsd only put their hands in their own pockets and not receive and financial support from the commonwealth.

Maybe someone should introduce the Muslims and the educators in San Diego to the concept.

Posted by: 11B40 at July 27, 2007 6:14 PM

well I'm a leftist and a radical firm believer in separation of religion and state

and every time I read or hear public schools or universities making these damn concessions

its enough to make me want to deliberatly go to a school and wear a giant cross.

seriously--you are right--the Hypocrisy of ACLU--is infuriating. Infuriating HOW DARE THEY?

this whole Madrassas thing in New York public schools is BULLSHIT. And two lunch hours--oh Hell no--if That be the case, then CHRISTIANS should be up in arms, demand a morning brak/recess to pray before the day, etc.

Its the same with the whole wearing of full face veils in England. My husband works for a college. He gets dirty looks from Muslim women when he wears this big hippie cross. Yet its to be tolerated and even encouraged for Muslim women to wear the veil. But dare a student wear any type of scripture on a tee shirt or a purity ring...

in that case--I think the girl should go ahead and wear it and say

IT'S MY CULTURE--DON'T LIKE IT SHOVE IT.

thats what its going to take--when universities are allowing separation in halls of gender and whatnot and then the tolerance of 'kill Jews',

its time to bring out the tent revival right there on the campuses. Whats good for one should be good for all--if the ACLU doesn't like it--

too damn bad. They opened up the door when they appeased the zealots of hate,

so as far as I'm concerned--as a leftist, I say bring all the religions openly to publc schools and demand they cater to all. It says RIGHT THERE IN OUR CONSTITUTION--THE STATE SHALL MAKE NO RELIGION COMPULSORY, ETC... [PARA]

SO WHY THE HELL ARE WE ALLOWING IT FOR ISLAM?????

as a leftist, this is one issue I WON'T BACK DOWN ON, I SAY--ACLU--BRING IT ON--ITS A BLATANT DISREGARD FOR SEPARATION OF CHURCH AND STATE.

and AMERICANS NEED TO RISE UP--AND TAKE THE CONSTITUTION BACK--

IF THE MUSLIMS DON'T LIKE IT--TOUGH.

THIS IS AMERICA

NOT AMERABIA.

DEAL WITH IT.

Natasha

Posted by: Natasha at July 27, 2007 6:57 PM

Natasha:

The hypocrisy of the ACLU is breath taking.

Why don't you get your friends and go out and protest against it? It'd sure improve the credibility of the left if they put their money where their mouth is regarding their draconian attitude towards separation of church and state.

I'd certainly applaud it.

Posted by: atheling at July 27, 2007 7:03 PM

Other students should ask the district for their own 2-3 p.m. luchtime so that they can pray to the Flying Spaghetti Monster.

Savior of noodles.

Posted by: profitsbeard at July 27, 2007 7:04 PM

I love it , is this the same Prayer-Time that Hooper from CAIR claimed didn't exist while he screamed Racism on the Tucker Carlson show.

Just watch how Hooper will now demand the non-existing Prayer-time be brought back as a Right for Muslim minorities in America.

The PC media is amazing and the Politicians are even more amazing.
In canada there was a Sikh jailed for making the bomb used to slaughter 330 civilians on a Canadian airplane that left Toronto in 1985 , but about 2 years ago the actual Sikh's that took the bomb and put it in a 747 baggage area were found innocent from the lack of evidence and the witnesses that were mysterously murdered prior to the trial and didn't show up in Court.

So one Judge jails a man for a crime that wasn't proven, and another Judge lets two guilty men go free for a crime they did do with a bomb
that slaughtered 330 passengers.

Posted by: ala-sux at July 27, 2007 7:15 PM

Suggestion to jinx this:

1. Organize Christian prayers to run at the same time in the school - maybe in the same room, maybe separate, but under circumstances as identical as possible to the Muslim prayers;
   
2. Have a student object to this Christian prayer, and approach the ACLU;
   
3. Christian body points to the Islamic prayer as precedent for what they are doing;
   
4. Plaintiff adds the Islamic prayer to his complaint, and consolidate these appeals into one;
   
5. Watch the ACLU squirm, and either bail out of this altogether, or allow the anti-Islamic appeal. Frying pan vs Fire.
   

Incidentally, does this school have the facilities for wudu?

Posted by: Infidel Pride at July 27, 2007 7:17 PM

Infidel Pride:

I like that!

Posted by: atheling at July 27, 2007 7:20 PM

Natasha

Perhaps as a leftist, you can explain why the left are beholden to the cult of Islam.

Posted by: Elric66 at July 27, 2007 7:35 PM

I'd love to see a Christian Bible study happen during that lunch hour, along with a Catholic Rosary group, maybe throw in some chants from the Buddha camp and a verbal debate by Atheists on the merits of Darwinism and Marxism.

Overall, I'd love to us bring back the concept of "assimilation" into American culture, and throw multi-culture curriculum right out the door - along with people that refuse to adept to our culture and our language and our constitution.

Posted by: Monkeywho at July 27, 2007 8:42 PM

I'd love for us to see a Christian Bible study happen during that lunch hour, along with a Catholic Rosary group, maybe throw in some chants from the Buddha camp and a verbal debate by Atheists on the merits of Darwinism and Marxism.

Overall, I'd love to bring back the concept of "assimilation" into American culture, and throw multi-culture curriculum right out the door - along with people that refuse to adept to our culture and our language and our constitution.

Posted by: Monkeywho at July 27, 2007 8:43 PM

Sorry about the double post, and the mis-spelling.

Posted by: Monkeywho at July 27, 2007 8:47 PM

elric66,

where to start--I mean you can say the same thing as well with the right--why are they beholden to the cult of Islam in continuing making trade agreements and arms agreements and what not--

its politics, pure and simple--resources, the your enemy is our enemy, etc. Political leverage, particularly economic.

and I do believe I've touched on this a bit in a prior post, but point is, its both right and left. Both are guilty...the simple fact is, as far as America is concerned, my opinion but I feel the problem is that for far far too long the 'we the people' have been more than too happy to give way to the power structure to the government, and when I say government I'm not just referring to the elected officials but to the entire stratification of the system.

I could sit here and pull up fact after fact of how both parties, republican or democrat, have in the past assisted some of the worst despotic regimes on this planet, many of them Islam. Indonesia, Ford and Suharto, Iraq, Reagan and Bush, Iran, Carter--

today--we are losing troops in Iraq, spending millions on a defense economy yet--we see mothers having bake sales to raise funds for 'armor' so their sons and daughters aren't fighting with inadequate equipment. We see ridiculous airport security such as pulling over an older woman in her 90s while letting Muslims wearing full veils go through--even in England, back in the 80s, I remember everyone's suitases were checked and so forth--due to the fears of IRA, now its the whole racial profiling nonsense.

We see constant terror alerts yet on the military channel [which I watch often] we are practically giving away much security and military strategy, talk about nonsense. We are in Afghanistan fighting the Al Queda yet supporting the extreme Shites who not too long ago gang raped an 11 year old girl and TRADED HER FOR A

DOG.

[see RAWA]

and yet--our shipping yards and borders are porous--leaving ample room for 'true racists' to rise up, which of course they will--but to the other extreme--we have leftists who say--open borders, another form of ridiculous nonsense. Either way, the immigrant workers lose, the true workers, not the sponges if you know what I mean, but trust me, there are just as many white sponges as Mexicans. but case in point--

its not about right or left--I've been on both sides--

its about a lack of real common sense in government AND IN SOCIETY. about adhering to rhetoric and charisma, rather than pragmatism and rational thinking.

there was an excellent speech given in Sweden by a feminist on the issue of women's rights and liberalism, and bottom line she said, that the liberalism today has gone so far from the true ideals and principles of liberalism its not even funny--

liberalism today is none other than hedonism. Don't know how else to say it Elric, but its either hedonism or this 'we have to make up for the sins of our ancestors so we will in this post colonial guilt lie down and sacrifice ourselves, our rights, because any assertion of those rights well, is whites asserting their 'white priviledge'

and that truly in my opinion, is 95% of the problem. There is truth to a lot of the facts in regards to the policies in the past, but its the manner in which they are being repaired, That is where the left has totally gone over to the internalization that yes, I concur with the right, those in other nations have worked many years in gearing towards.

Much of it I have to say is probably yes, academia. and as a feminist I don't mind speaking on this because I see the points from both sides--like many in the rad feminist ideology say, doens't matter what boy school a woman supports, regardless of who wins, she still comes out on the losing side. So true--but one point there, where they don't take that far enough, there are some boy schools that are far worse for women, and Islamic governments are one of them.

I think materialism is also a huge part of the problem, for too many years the citizens have become complacent, freedom was that purchase of that new Chevy or that second vacation home, the whole consumerist approach to life has left people in a mental stupor. The ends to that means has been, sadly, too many 'trade deals' and economic 'wink winks' at regimes that have no regard for human rights, or any regard for worker's rights or environmental, or who are theocratic. but for too many years Americans were all too happy with this set up, who cared what happened over 'there' it was over 'there', as long as it didn't effect us, or

our pocketbooks.

So I think we are seeing the reaping of years of sowing to economic manipulation and leverage plays, military strategies and policies to ward off other enemies [eg Cold War], the change in population demographics worldwide, changes in technology and even the end of the Cold War which brought about that unbalance of the superpowers and opened up that vacuum for every third world despot to rise up, ethnic cleansing and so forth.

Most of all though, and I fault both the right and left, is the underestimation of what Islam is, the belief that its like the other two main religions. I often read feminists on how Christianity and Judaism are just as misogynist to women...in some sects that is most true, the Old Testament reads a lot like the Koran and today's modern Islamic world when it comes to forced marriages, rape, concubinage, etc.

The difference is however, in the other two religions there is freedom to move 'beyond' those archaic norms and mores, where with Islam, the entire core of the faith is centered around maintaining those archaic norms and mores. Not only centered around but using violence to not only maintain but to spread.

I think Elric there is just this huge mythical belief that Islam is just like any religion and that with time and diplomacy things can change. That people truly don't want to live under that form of subjugation and that people desire enlightenment and progress. And that really is a big part of the problem because its very hard, esp for those in the West, to grasp that there are whole societies that are not just absolutist because they have to be, but because they Want to be. Sure one could get into the whole internalization arguments and psychology but the fact remains, the core of Islam is totalitarian and centered around

hate, murder, and death.

One thing that I find some times hopeful but at other times disheartening is the secularists who oppose religion. On one hand they want a world that is secular and progressing from what they term away from ancient beliefs that mankind has created, yet on the other hand they are sympathetic to Islam because of their resentment towards the far Christian right.

Someone wrote on here that the secularists and the Islamists are ganging up on the Christians and this is, partly true. I say partly because if anyone truly knows Islam, they will soon as kill a pagan or secularist, and in fact, will have more mercy towards a believer in God than a non-believer in God. Which is why this whole 'oh we'll let the Islamists handle the right wing religious zealots' is just the most stupidist and nihilistic thinking there is, and truly shows the utmost ignorance of what Islam believes.

Fact is, according to pure Islam, doesn't matter if you are secular or not, we are considered to all be liars and worthy of horrible torture. The 'mercy of Allah' is lost on them, its simply a nice buzzword, because mercy is lost on them.

but bottom line, I think it is the complacency, the fact that majority of Americans are spoiled, and I don't mean that in a negative way but saying that we've had it too good for too long and we've forgotten, as Hannah Arnendt said her self, we've forgotten what freedom means, we are formally free. Freedom is the lost treasure,

and we lost it years and years ago, when we became [we generally speaking, meaning our society] too comfortable and reliant on the 'owns in control' to take care of matters and we got nice and fat. Know what I'm saying,

and it effected, both right and left wing politics in this country. Now its like we've been asleep all these years and were forced out of a slumber--but we haven't shaken off that dress of complancy yet. Sadly I think it will not come until its like right in the majority of people's faces, when they will realize that freedom, is something

you don't flirt with. You respect it, and take responsibility for it and towards it, or you lose it.

Natasha

Posted by: Natasha at July 27, 2007 9:03 PM

"The hypocrisy of the ACLU is breath taking.

Why don't you get your friends and go out and protest against it? It'd sure improve the credibility of the left if they put their money where their mouth is regarding their draconian attitude towards separation of church and state.

I'd certainly applaud it."

lol You do realize I am a minority in the left, I would think you realize that. Lets just say, the one far left party I was in, when I stepped up and blasted them on their sympathy towards the Hezbollah, I made some numerous enemies.

But I refuse to back down, and my stands were mostly on the treatment of women in those regimes. I even had it out with stupid and I emphasize stupid patriarchial women who claim feminism yet are patriarchial as hell, because they will not stand up against blatant oppression of women and Islam is one of the worst. [I'm just as adament agaisnt the porn industry as well and I have no tolerance for violence towards women, on that issue I don't cower down, to ANYONE].

But I realized, and many radical feminists do, who btw are more left than leftists, and what that means is they don't have much tolerance for liberal men who profess feminism but who are anything but, nor the right, but as one rad feminist said, at least with the right the cards are on the table and you know what you are dealing with...while with the liberals/left men, they claim to be supportive of women's rights yet at the same time will embrace all forms and types of violence towards women and children and so forth.

The only disagreement I have with the rad feminists on things is the blaming society's ills 'solely on men'. I can understand where that assertion comes from and on many points its valid, but I just believe there is more to it than just patriarchy.

But going back to what you said, and its been said here so many times but there are a lot of leftists who are not happy with the encroachment of Islam, and I know you'll be seeing more come out of the woodwork, but the thing is that labeling of 'racism' and 'western imperialism' and Thats the mental yoke that is holding so many in this guilt bondage. I say it because I've seen it so much.

Its almost like people can't see the difference, or, I think its also this whole you have to be this way or that and any deviation from one of the two renders one a traitor, and that group type of thinking I find is very dangerous because it leaves out the room for critical thought and analysis.

What is lacking in the left today is a serious analysis and too much reliance on the usual archaic Marxist ideology of 'western imperialism and capitalism bad' and all else is a result of, and once that is taken care of, like a magic bubble everyone will just fall neatly into place--

and That is the problem--that rose colored glasses thinking. What is concerning, is just how entrenched this thinking is, and the longer I was in the far left, the more I came to realize--its not just this force from the far left,

there Has to be something else behind the scenes there, and thats when I started to really think and ponder on the aims of government itself, especially economically and with globalization. Lets face it, government today, worldwide, is in the hands of transnational corporations, who do not play by the rules of people or human rights of people, but by the ethics of business. the ethics that says, profit and growth is the bottom line and who cares who or what is sacrificed for that growth.

There is a lot of legitiamacy to the whole one world government theories--now I don't buy into that whole its a Zionist theory because its not just Jews or Americans or Europeans. The more I read about business and investments worldwide and corporate growth the more I saw its members from every nation state. Now I don't think thats the ONLY culprit, but its one of the main ones.

So on that aspect the far left is hitting on some valid points, but the thing is, the ideology of the far left has changed a lot over the years and since the 50s, it went from the goal of workers uniting to 'lets all fight the evil USA and whitie', simply put but to me--thats what has happened,

and its just gone to the shits since then. Oh, as far as the ACLU the whole thing with Islam is that its that whole 'its their 'culture' thing--like its not like Christianity or Judaism where one can be of one of many cultures but religious wise be one way or another, with Islam, its not the religion as much as 'according to the left/ACLU, etc., that they are accomodating 'culture' and to not accomodate it is to be racist and Islamophobic, etc etc etc.

Playing devils advocate here though--you could say the same thing, as to why the ACLU doesn't have a hissy fit over the Mormon sect in Colorado City that forces child marriage and polygamy, even refuses to rent land to those who walk away from the sect, etc. [there has been court cases] AND

I bring this up because this is one issue, that IS going to bite the Christians and the secularists who oppose the encroachment of Islam, is going to bite our asses--and that is, for years this misogynist and child abuse shit has been going on in our very own country--

but because of 'freedom of religion' we've tolerated it. so you see the left sees that, and they think-say, 'we'll now how hypocritical of the right to support their own but when Muslims do it, they scream.

now to be fair--thats a valid argument. And I can guarantee you there are some in the ACLU that are probably thinking right along these lines, and using the accomodation of Islam and religion to force these other issues to come up. There too has to be admittance that there are and is that hatred of Christianity, I've seen it, I think a lot of it is extreme and is based on the some valid points, but also those who would if they could, have every type of law out there overturned,

for example, pedaphilia. There are a lot of people out there who are not just hedonist but who don't are about human rights or about hurting others, its self-gratification they want and Christianity to them, stands in their way. Get what I'm saying here,

and there are those people out there. and yea, I'll say it, from what I've seen, its mostly men. but, its business too--sex industry is one if not the fastest and richest industry in this country and in the world, so hell yea, they don't like either the right or the feminists for that fact, because they would rather us keep our mouths shut so they can exploit and rape and make mega millions doing it.

And why they don't have issue with Islam because Islam supports that crap--they just do it under the sacred acts of 'religion'.

Thats part of it--I think there is a lot more but I think, no, I know its a combination of many factors. Question is, what do your common people who have the sense and well--the ones who are going to be most effected by it all,

going to do to combat it? Many here have said, the government isn't going to do it, and I concur.

I think the answer is not as complex--its time,

that WE THE PEOPLE

RISE UP,

AND BECOME,

WE THE PEOPLE AGAIN.

the problem there though, is that WE THE PEOPLE,

are divided. The leftists want to make it about support of the status quo/capitalism, etc...partly they are right, PARTLY THEY ARE WRONG.

What I see, is two opposite sides of the pole, both in ways fascist and totalitarian, in subtle ways..and we, are in the middle.

and the wolf, Islam and the Islamic despots, are out side, waiting for it all to come down so they can devour, and some on both sides of those poles are aiding them, using them as leverage for control of the masses. What better means to control the masses than to use 'fear'.

Time for people to stop fearing and start fighting.

Natasha

Posted by: Natasha at July 27, 2007 9:31 PM

Natasha

You, kj, and when he wasn't unhinged, Nariz - all Leftists such as you have my respect, even though I probably don't agree with you on much that's non-Islamic. In the Ummah, both the Left and their 'Right' i.e. Jihadis, despite their differences as to the role of Islam, have one thing in common - hatred of Infidels. We need a similar sort of unity here between the anti-Islamic Right and the anti-Islamic Left: differences on issues like taxes, social security, medicare, et al, should be on the backburner.

On non-Islamic, but somewhat related topics, such as Energy policy, where do you stand? Do you support converting all our commercial (i.e. non transportational) energy needs away from Islamic oil and towards things like nuclear, coal, hydro and wherever it's practicable, solar? For our transportational needs, until we find alternatives to oil, do you support drilling in ANWR? I agree that Islam's treatment of women, gays, animals, minorities outrages you, but which of your normal Leftist stands do you put on the backburner in order to defeat the Jihad?

Posted by: Infidel Pride at July 27, 2007 10:14 PM

"I think it is the complacency, the fact that majority of Americans are spoiled, and I don't mean that in a negative way but saying that we've had it too good for too long and we've forgotten, as Hannah Arnendt said her self, we've forgotten what freedom means, we are formally free. Freedom is the lost treasure,"

Hi Natasha. Food for thought. I stumbled upon this small Iranian internet discussion forum hall out on the world wide web, that I have been observing and even participating in for the past couple weeks. Discussions are mostly in English, though there is a fair amount of Farsi going around. And the members of this forum, no doubt, are mostly Iranian ex-pats living in places like the United States and Canada, Europe, etc.

At this forum, there is much hatred spewed against the (leadership of) Islamic Republic of Iran, the mullahocracy, if you will. Words like Justice and Freedom (or lack there of) get tossed around a lot. Words....nay...concepts that as you suggest many Americans do not even think about, or take for granted, or have forgotten the meaning of.
Interesting stuff out there, I must say...

Posted by: ThinkForYourself at July 28, 2007 1:33 AM

TFY:

You've hit the nail on the head. We've had it cushy for soooo long that we've forgotten that freedom is not handed down; it must be vigilantly guarded and fought for.

Posted by: atheling at July 28, 2007 1:56 AM

Natasha:

You've done something people on the left rarely do, that is to say that you've inspired my curiosity.

If it's not am imposition I'd like to know why you identify yourself as a leftist and what the term means to you.

Posted by: joeblough at July 28, 2007 3:20 AM

If the children at this elementary school (ages 5-12)have been in class since 8 AM, this is an awfully late time slot for a second lunch time, which they begin at 1 PM. By that time, blood sugar levels are low, and kids are dragging. Clearly, this is a back door accommodation to the Muslim students. I bet that the school officials will figure out a way to bring back segregated classes too, when they think the publicity has died down.

Posted by: maryrose at July 28, 2007 8:27 AM

Muhammed failed to have the knowledge from God to see the problems created by those Muslims that don't live near Mecca or the Middle East in general.
Riddle me this Muhammed :

How far can you walk into the forest ?

Answer:
You can only go 1/2 way into the forest because youthen start coming out after the 1/2 way point.

So when Muslims cross over the 1/2 way point for Global Time-zones they now may be closer to Mecca by facing the other way for the shorter distance to Mecca , plus the Moon appears at different times and the clocks do not show the actual Prayer time in Mecca for all the Muslims obeying Muhammed's original rules for prayer.

CAIR should make it clear what version of Islam they practise because if the Students are true followers of Islam they will have a watch set for Mecca Time to pray with the real Muslims , and Ramadan will start when the Moon is seen from Mecca and not Tampa or Los Angeles that aslo have another 3 hour difference.
Mr.Hooper needs to tell us if Islam has Strict rules for prayer times or can they be flexible as long as the Muslim still prays 5 times aday , and is it an offence under Sharia law to pray 6 or 10 times aday which may really annoy Allah who is trying to listen to the Muslims in Mecca that use the Muhammed-Time for prayer.

When I hear Imams tell the media that all these rules have loopholes for special cases like the elderly and sick or those outside the Mecca time-zone , I wonder if Hooper knows the Quran and Islam because he assert views that are negated by a actual Imam who I trust long before
I would believe any opinion from CAIR or Hooper.

Posted by: ala-sux at July 28, 2007 6:01 PM

Arabic is not the native language of Somalis. There is one reason for them to learn Arabic. It's for religious reasons.

Posted by: Jabba the Tutt at July 28, 2007 9:07 PM

WOW-I JUST CAME BACK AND READ ALL THIS,

where to Begin,

ok, well,

let me just sort of answer all of you. I was or grew up in poverty, but during like my young years, probably due to where I grew up, which was the Bible belt, I grew up in somewhat of a conservative right wing area and influence. So I grew up with a lot of beliefs but too, seeing the hypocrisy [esp to women and like classism, etc and yes, racism].

so as I got older, moved to the city, I was single parent for years and at one time, fell into really hard times and was working, and wound up homeless, couldn't pay rent and childcare. So I started seeing things from the other side so to speak, then went back to college and well even before college started reading about labor and Marx, etc.

I got really involved in far leftism, socialism and communism. Now, I have to say there is a split right now within the far left, as to the issue of Islam, you have one school that is like totally opposed to Islam and you will find this more among communists [probably because in Iraq, Iran, Pakastan, etc they've [Mullahs, etc] have killed communists, esp in Iran--not many have forgotten the deaths of the Tudah party].

Then there is like the anti-imperialist sects and I have to say majority of them are like the ones who support Castro, Chavez, etc and in My opinion they are more like to the 'nationalist socialists' because they have a lot in common with the Nazi ideology. [and I think, after WWII, there was a clever adapting to the communist left by some Nazi's, I don't have proof or anything but in all the reading I've done on Latin America it seems that way, and too with some of the what is termed RED BROWN SHIRT LEFT in Europe and in parts of Russia, e.g. like the Limonka movement, well some of them are race nationalists and some of them are socialist nationalists which means they are anti-semitic and nationalists [very opposed to US, etc] but they aren't 'race puritans'.

So like today's leftism [far left] is in so many ways so far from like the old days, most even reject Marx, and from what I gather, from all the reading is that this change came about a lot in the sixties. I'm not an expert as I haven't like read everything on it--but I've read enough to sort of know there was a shift in theory and policy, etc. But the more I studied the more I saw that this has been one of the Flaws in far left ideology [there are several] and that nationalism has like been the thorn in the side among far left.

Now where the Islam falls into that is of course the Arab nationalism and Islamist nationalism, but I would say mostly Arab. Then add the anti-WESTERN IMPERIALISM==you probably know what I refer too--like the influence of Siad, good example. And in all reality, communism is like looked down upon and socialism has sort of taken the place,

now that might change at least in America because the socialists can't like get their shit together. But the communists here, I think, are like very different from communists in other countries, and I do know they tend to be more Stalinist here. Or at least thats what they argue about back and forth and back and forth--

the Maoists now--they are silent but growing, and they have a real livid anger towards China--they feel China has like betrayed the Maoist ideal. But that can vary too--

but all in all I think the socialists, are the ones that I think--are the most dangerous because the hard cores are taking over, and by that I mean, the hard cores that are puritan as far as ideology goes, they will use 'any means' and that includes lying in bed with Islam, they are misogynist as ever [though they scream feminist platform but trust me--thats BULLSHIT]

they are deceptive, and the ones who really do care about human rights, who are a bit more moderate--well they are either old and dying off, or are getting purged,

and I will say, alot of it is the upcoming young people who have been warped via acedemics [I do blame academia for a lot of the demise because there is a lot of 'distorted' leftism and in so many ways its like Stalinism--any lie if it gets the job done so to speak--

but now, you'll have just as many leftists saying its Trotskiesm that is the demise and yes, there are a lot of Trotskiest parties and they are internationalists and They yes, do cater to any cultural relativism, because hey believe its workers united with workers and that if economics are dealt with--all the other will be taken care of.

But--now I think, that Chavez and the Latin American politics, does have A LOT TO DO WITH WHAT YOU ARE SEEING TODAY in regards to the whole anti-west imperialism and cultural relativism--when I brought up one time about AZTLAN to the far left party they screamed 'racism and bigot' blah blah blah,

but when I showed them the proof--of course they then said they weren' t for that and yada yada--and like Islam, I think its a big part of arrogance, the 'oh we can control these influences because its all the capitalism',

a LOT of emotionalism. thats what I think, because reading Lenin and Trotsky, readings even back in the twenties compared with today--huge difference, in other words,

intellectualism I think--is direly lacking.

Too much reliance on outdated and archaic theories and there are some who say the same thing--

and I have to include the progressives too because a lot of the problems comes from this progressive thinking, not all of it is bad but I find some of it to be really utopic. If that makes any sense,

but personally, I just studied and read more and I saw a lot of the flaws and its not like they deny them, but its like, they are repeating them. Like, they'll say Stalin did all these horrible things but then they'll say that they aren't like that--but they are--

see the Big problem, I think in far leftism is the 'centralism' and this whole worship of the 'vanguard' and I say that because I was once really into that whole thing. I also studied Russian history [including prior to Lenin] and the thing is, a real lack of understanding of the devepment and conditions of that time--not just in leftism but in politics in general. [why even the ignorance of Islam--has a lot to do I think--with the negligence of teaching WWI, a lot of focus on WWII, not sure about today but when I was growing up, but WWI has a lot of connections to what we are seeing globally today].

So there are things I concur with as far as left--but there are a lot of things I totally DON'T concur with. Why I eventually became independent, and there is a lot too that I haven't read on so on some things I have to say, I don't know, its not my area of expertise or area of particular study.

I do have several friends from Russia and former communist countries and from what they say, and they are very honest, now they aren't like all honky dorry over capitalism but they are very brutally honest about the lies of 'applied communism' and 'socialism' [because I've spoken to people from socialist countries too] and they've all said the same things,

that communism was brutal [esp to women and thats one area I really had HUGE FIGHTS with the far left on--] and that there never was communism--more like state owned capitalism. Sort of like, what we see with Castro and Chavez [whom I can't stand Chavez--because he's betrayed so many of the people who supported him--he's a dictator, as is Castro, now yes Cuba has like done a lot to lesson maternity deaths--but see here's where I was a tad different--I've met people who've gone to Cuba and they say oh its this and that--but,

if its so great-Why so many people risking drowning to come over here???? It can't be because they are all greedy--sure maybe back during the revolution but not now, so Something is amiss there. And thats one of the things that did bug me, was the refusal to even Consider that there was things that weren't as utopic--now sure, sanctions--explains a lot but he's sitting on thousands, maybe millions--my big complaint against him is, child prostitution is soaring there--and still no women up in high office. If one is truly a leftist--that is like a betrayal of even the most basic of left beliefs there--

where I started seeing the hypocrisy there. But anyway--I tend to look at many things, and see good here, something that totally sucks there, and I'm not like real good at this whole loyal to the end no matter what. I think--if something isn't working, fix it. Don't just ignore it because the 'image' has to be protected [no matter what politics].

Economically, Marxism appealed to me, from the 'workers taking ownership--not the state, but the whole state and vanguard and the 'everything of the old must go', That, that I didn't concur with, and I read enough of the socialists and yes, communists who differed from Stalinism and even Lenin, in that regard and who paid dearly--

and it was over the fact that they didn't agree with the dictatorship and attacks on democracy and freedom. Also I've read a lot of the poets and literature from those countries and that was an eye opener--so then I got into anarchism--

but anarchism, though many aspects are good, well, lol, look at Sierra Leone, there's anarchy for you. Its always, who has the bigger gun is going to rule--so a lot of that seemed utopic too. But you know, I took a lot of 'theory' in college and it all seems a bit utopic [including right wing and even some of the democratic and representative, etc]--

but it all boils down to I think, the ability to move right or left, to have that freedom to work on things--and the thing with totalitarianism, even if its that loving paternal father, there isn't that 'room of movement' or that political space. And it goes stagnate. Even relying on government and political laziness like here in the west, opens the door to 'friendly fascism and stagnation'.

Now, as to the oil, well oil is not one of those 'areas' I've studied a lot on, but number one, I mean the whole reliance on Middle Eastern oil--will thats a no brainer, because look who its benefitting. And historically, from what little I do know, the whole balkanization of Middle East and the treaties have created the foundations of a huge money empire that we are combatting today. But see thats just it--if not us, then someone else would have done it--I mean historically its sort of difficult to say what if,

because at that time the world was competing for that super power place, etc. But ridding of oil, that too, I mean it sounds good but there are problems with other types of energy too--in other words, I think the problem and its international because its not just the US that relies on oil--today its a global dependency and well now like nuclear--well we could go nuclear but then we have, future Chernobyls [which I sort of have to laugh at Iran--because I could just see future Iran Chernobyl cases--I mean if they can't even control the poverty with all that wealth due to the corruption--even if lets say-they weren't a threat--do we Really want them to have nuclear plants everywhere????

Know that sounds pretentious as hell but thats the first thing I thought of when I heard Iran was wanting to build nuclear bombs--Chernobyl in hot deserts with hot desert winds--ever see the wind patterns over that region? Duh--not too bright--might kill off the entire Muslim world...but then would effect Europe and Africa too. I'm not so sure Iran having anything nuclear is a good idea.

I think oil in Alaska isn't a good idea--due to the global warming but--here's the thing, while the goal of reduction in oil is good, just taking it from an environmental point of view--to really turn back the clock so to speak, we'd have to go primitivist--and Is that realistic? Even if lets say, we could--what about the time factor?

and its not just US, I mean China, is looking at a huge possibilty of a disastrous famine due to the lack of agricultural land and the mass pollution[alot of it due to the increase in car transportation and reliance on coal]. saw that on a food channel, but anyway, I don't know, I mean its a mess, it really is, and I don't think there are any 'easy' answers but I do think,

like there are things that people can do to lesson the reliance on oil But even if lets say, we were to find alternative energy or end the whole oil reliance in the Middle East, that still doesn't solve the problems because our governments are working trade agreements like in the computer/technical industries and that to me is like I don't know--not wise,

its the same argument that they used in regards to China, that if there was free trade with China then communism would end and they would see the way and human rights and democracy would come about. O.K. that might be true to a point--[of course the US is the biggest seller of taser guns to China and we know they aren't using them to fry fish with if you get my drift--so much for human rights there--that and I read that China is one of the major countries blockaiding aid to Darfur.] But there is a lot of problems increasing in China too--

and its having an effect on the people there [just recently they found a sweatshop where they were literally chaining children and beating them--that and a year ago--trafficked women from N Korea working in slave shops in China--so something not up to par there] but its effecting our economy too,

yes cheap goods, but cheap goods means cheaper wages means job outsourcing to compete with cheaper wages means more people out of work and if you out of work you ain't gonna be buying cheap made in China stuff at Wallie world if you know what I mean.

But taking back to Islam, I mean, well here you have some of the wealthiest nations on earth--Islamic nations, that are not just wealthy but developing, and of course, they aren't modernizing in beliefs=thats apparent. Not only that, the poor other countries are finding their people, esp women being trafficked, not only for sex industry but in labor, esp labor.

So just dealing with the oil won't solve the problem--I think, that we should just stop the trade with these countries a.s.a.p. and end the reliance of oil, Especially in Saudi, as soon as possible. It just doesn't make sense, to load the person with the gun aimed at you, the money to go buy the bullets.

Or like in today's case--shit--just giving them the bullets. And this whole myth that trade and relations will make them moderate--well--

when? When we are all forced to pray five times a day?

As far as the far left--like what you are seeing in Iran, well thats because they are fed up with the Mullahs and the religion, and the workers abuses. But the 'leftism' coming out of those areas is VERY DIFFERENT--FROM THE FAR LEFTISM HERE IN AMERICA.

I can't speak for Europe--I was glad Royal wasn't elected--thought she was weak--when she said the things about crime--that revealed a lot, and that is the attitude of a lot of leftists here, that if you deal with the poverty and take away all the guns people will just learn to be nice and peaceful and yada yada---its utopic thinking. It may have some truth for SOME PEOPLE--

but take it from someone who was homeless and poor--poverty yes, does have an effect on people, classism yes, has ALOT to do with the demise in society--but its not just that. People are more than just consumers. It was mostly in the area of women's rights that I saw the flaws, but I saw them in other areas too.

I think the big problem is the refusal to see that there is and are those--who love evil. that there are those who have not an issue with cruelty and brutality especially if 'they benefit from it'.

Westerners I think have a hard time grasping this FACT. Just like Lenin overestimated the power of nationalism, and Trosky too--they thought that if workers were united they would revolt against their imperialist governments--that didn't happen. And that fallacy is still being repeated today.

Just yesterday I had a discussion over this very thing, about a protest regarding crime, and the far left people were saying that the ones protesting the crime and gangs were racist and fascists. Maybe a lot of them are--but the fact is, we have a crime and gang problem in this country and you could throw all sorts of money at it--or, build mass prisons and throw them all in jail [I don't concur with the rights' tactics on this issue either] and still--you will have rise in crime,

because one, we have a love of violence--the movies alone--show serious mental illness, seriously, I mean when you have people paying for entertainment to watch horrid torture--something like not right upstairs--

and then we wonder why our young people are violent? Duh--doesn't take a genius to figure it out--we have some like culture problems but is totalitarianism the answer? Well--under Soviets--they still had crime so obviously no, and Islam, lol--yea well, thats a misnomer--their prisons are always full. Why we need common sense BACK IN OUR GOVERNMENT AND IN OUR SOCIETY AS A WHOLE---

and as far as the oil--well it doens't make sense to keep making money deals with people who want to destroy us. But its not just government--its the whole society--I mean do we really have to always take the car to the store when its two blocks away?

I think what we need is more grass roots government, people taking back control, using common sense, getting involved with the community, becoming what this country Used to be. So its not just the oil, its the consumerist and material loving values that need to be addressed, individualism and yes, nuclear families [read Thomas Jefferson and the whole thing about nuclear family from community/rural during pre-industrialization--he had some interesting things to say and they did come true] and lack of community, I mean,

one person was talking about the fifteen year old girls being forced to marry older men in the US and why the gov doens't do something--but thats just it--its not just government-its society,

why didn't the teachers say something, or the parents who knew the girls, or the neighbors? Not like we should become the cult of personality society--not what I'm saying here but we are lacking in taking care of each other. I think too that has a lot to do with the leaning to far left ideologies,

because on many parts we are falling apart at the seams. Have been for very very long time--but we need practicums that work for today, not theories back in 1917 or 1950--or so out there that they aren't workable--and SURELY NOT MEDIEVAL SOLUTIONS.

We need to strengthen This country on the inside--thats number one I think--its like,

ok what good would it do, for me to go fight all these forest fires like 3000 miles away when there is a fire ten miles from my house and moving towards my home, and I have all this rubbish around my home and I say--o.k. to help the fires 3000 miles away I'll add more rubbish around my home, because maybe if there is more rubbish--the fire will like magic move away from my house.

thats the logic of politics today, both right and left--and its ludicrous. Our shipping yards are pourous, water treatment plants with little to no security, what about our farms, etc? We are too reliant on foreign labor and insourcing cheap labor here--while more Americans are winding up homeless or in the poor house--and we are allowing more accomodation to systems and beliefs that are so contrary to our own, hell they are contrary to Euro-Marxism if you want to get to the nitty gritty--what gives there?

we've become a nation dependent on visuals and so many don't even read--rather they fill their heads with some of the most stupidist shit out there--and we wonder why our young people are clueless. I read A LOT and that one of my biggest complaints about today's world--is the lack of intellectualism and reading and critical thinking--

and I think thats whats killing us.

and I don't mean reading pop fiction and cult classics--hell most don't even read the classics. Our schools have been so dumbed down its not even funny. We've become a nation of clones, corporate clones--and that I think is a big reason why many have not a clue as to what it would be, to not be free. We've already lost freedom--why the poorer you are the less free you are in many ways--loss of mobility, loss of a lot because so much is tied into 'what you can afford'

that and censurship--not censureship of things that are detrimental like violence and gore--but censureship of critical analysis of government and policy and yes--of things that are a danger. Its like all backwards--

and yes--in so many ways, its like the cult of Stalinism in the west--not in all ways, but in many ways. And if people don't wake the hell up--we are in for some hellish times. and the tolerance for totalitarianism and violation of human rights in our own country--needs to end NOW. We shouldn't even tolerate the 'teaching of' much less the actual letting it go on--and so what if its their culture--if its their culture--then let them GO BACK TO THEIR CULTURE AND DO THAT SHIT OVER THERE--

not here. And our government needs to back up their claims about democracy and human rights--meaning, stop making deals with the devil, once and for all. No compromise, why we wind up having to clean up the mess--and its not the government--its our children, our troops and our future generations.

Does that answer your question...lol know thats alot.

Natasha

Posted by: Natasha at July 28, 2007 10:02 PM

I should add too,

because someone mentioned the forums and the people in Iran, etc.,

one thing about the far left--Maoists and hard core communists--they might 'use' Islam to go against the capitalists, but this much I do know, even the Stalinists,

the theories of communism are totally opposed to Islam, Islam right now, there are some trying to 'reform' Marxism/left parties--

its one thing when its about self determinination of countries--but time and time again, the thing with Islam is that its contrary to materialist dialectics. And the two will be enemies--always have been, always will be. They might make the deals and sell the arms but when it comes to push and shove--they will war.

This is why in all the countries where the leftists have been in bed with the Islamists--they've wound up at war, or killed. In Iraq--they killed the leftists over women's rights..the day they asserted women's rights the Mullahs had the communist leaders killed, leaders who the people were all supportive of. Islam will never change,

not even for communism/socialism. The majority of communists I know see that--socialists--well thats another story, but socialism has differences too from communism and there is an aminosity [sic] between them. [in fact Lenin detested socialism--thought it was bourgousie and would only lead to capitalism again--I happen to concur with him on That regard--but don't concur with him on a lot of other]. but on that he was right [if you are looking at left theory that is]

I mean, I know Chavez is like all in bed with the Islamists now but I would have to wonder--if like Islam was to rise up in Venezuala I don't think Chavez would be like, sure, ok, I think you would see the real red come out and it would be nasty--the thing then depends on military power, etc.

And this is where there is some splits in the left too--and I think you'll see more of the split as it becomes more evident to even the most progressives at just how dangerous the Islamists are, over here--not so much over there. Europe I know is more socialist, not communist. They do have communist parties but from what I gather they are a minority--

I do know many in Canada and the far, far left there--have a lot of gripes about the socialists there. There is one communist party that is like all gaga over cultural relativism--another that is opposed--but how strong they are I don't know. I do know Canada didn't allow Sharia courts and I would assume thats because they do have a strong women's rights agenda there--compared to the US they are a bit more progressive there. But too--there is a lot of anger toward the US [that I've heard] due to the NAFTA AND FTAA--a lot of jobs have been lost and so alot of the sympathy to the Middle East does have something to do with old and new resentments--

but I'm not like all up on the whole Canadian government, etc., just telling you what I've heard from the few I know who live there. I will say there is a lot of anti-semitism in the left here in America--that was an area that I also had huge conflicts with--its real apparent because like--its the attacks on Israel--but they give it away when they say Jews--

and I've like gotten in the face arguements with some die hard anti-semitics who will claim they aren't but its always Jews Jews Jews--so like--as far as I'm concerned--they are Nazi's in red. I can't stand them because its those very ones who will bitch about Isreal but will be all, apathetic about Sudan, Nigeria, Somalia, Kashmir, etc. And they really piss me off when they pull out the human rights card--

don't use the human rights card unless you apply it to all, including Muslims--but see they won't do that. They love to pull it out against Israel but to Muslims its 'oh they are freedom fighters' and I've even seen them compare the Hamas to the IRA--Huge difference in agenda and reasons there,

but here's where they really get screwy--they have less sympathy for the IRA than they do for the suicide bombers. but these are the American leftists that I've run into that are like this--and they are also, sexist as ever, hypocritical as ever and anti-communist--

because they don't like the whole 'every one being equal' but they like to use socialist ideals to prop up their other agendas, its hard to explain but let me put it this way--

the left in the west--Lenin would have had them shot--Stalin would have thrown them in the gulag--or used them then thrown them into the gulag, because they are in many ways working for ideals that are in strict opposition to socialism or communism--

I've heard it termed as they are the neo-liberal pollution. So I think--a lot of what you see as leftism today is the neo-liberalism and its infiltrated the far left--Thats what I'm trying to say, lol, but hard core leftists don't have a lot of tolerance for neo-liberalism and not just due to Islam. Just use the term prolitariat and see neo-liberals squirm--they don't like it because its too revolutionary,

but then--neither do Islamists. I've sometimes thrown Stalinism at the Muslims in debates or talks and I've seen the reactions--they hate communism to the core. But here's the thing--

its the one thing that I've seen, that they FEAR. They know if communism was like to rise up again, like on a Soviet level--on a mass level, that there would be havoc, take Milosovic--good example [and the hard core communists support him], and even the ones who are more nationalist--

let me put it this way, as one man from Thailand said on his blog--when the Lebanese Hezbollah kidnapped some Soviet diplomats--the Russians didn't play around, they kidnapped the families of the kidnappers and mailed back their body parts. Soviets were notorious for this sort of stuff--needless to say, Lebanon released the Russians a.s.a.p.

Russia didn't fuck around--maybe the west should do the same. Put it this way--I think if the Muslims would have really pissed off Stalin--Stalin would have not a problem with bombing Mosques...

I don't concur with a lot on the far left--but as far as not pussying around with dick-tators using religion and medieval ways to force on people--well, maybe thats what is needed--some hard core not messing around dealing back. Probably why its a good thing I'm not in power, lol,

because I would be that way--I wouldn't bother with talking--bomb us--bomb you back. action first, talk later--thats probably where I tend to still be a tad 'far left' on that regard--

I mean--put it this way--you don't see Muslims fucking around with North Korea.

Why is that?

I think the answer is obvious. You don't see them migrating there either--lol,

gee I wonder why. Do you think they'd be able to demand Sharia in North Korea and demand prayer times and gender apartheid on North Korean institutions?

lol--they might--it would be interesting to see the outcome of such.

maybe thats what we need in the West--know that not like P.C. but you know--all this other doesn't seem to be working out too well.

Natasha

Posted by: Natasha at July 28, 2007 10:49 PM

Why the F*CK are there so many moosleemb students in San Diego to begin with??!!!

I came to the US in the early 80s and this was NEVER an issue at the time.

Who is manning the battle stations around here?
Yes, that was a purely rhetorical question.

Posted by: Allahfanculo at July 29, 2007 4:42 AM