There are currently 785 MEPs ( http://www.europarl.org.uk/guide/GEPmain.htm ). It seems, from this article, that some 214 belong to, or have expressed an interest in, this idiotic caucus.

Roughly one quarter of MEPs, in other words, seem to support this. If one makes due allowance for the placeholders and time-servers then it is probable that only 20% of MEPs actually are interested in this committee (maybe fewer) and most of them will have one eye on the possibility of being either de-selected by their party if they don't toe the line or losing their jobs on the gravy-train in the up-coming elections to the vocal far left.

Obviously, we should worry about this committee for it indicates the puerile thought processess of those who are committed to multi-culturalism, but, in my opinion, we should not read this article as indicative of some European norm.

Posted by: OliverPCamford at August 2, 2007 12:39 AM

The National Socialists were far left.

As were the Communists.

These attempts (to scare people away by using the "far-right" label) need to be exposed as empty and suicidal drivel.

The ultra-liberal Dutch gay activist Pim Fortuyn was demonized as "far-right" just before a "far left" assassin (called an "animal rights activist") shot Fortuyn in the back.

Because the killer thought Pim F. was being unjust to the followers of Mohammad ( who were flooding Holland) because he wanted them to stay home in their Islamic lands and not move to, and destroy Holland.

So, instead of debating Fortuyn, he shot him.

Demonize, then strike.

The methodology of the "far left".

From purges to polonium.

Right or left are meaningless.

If someone opposes the rise of any form of intolerant theocratic tyranny, they'll do.

Posted by: profitsbeard at August 2, 2007 12:58 AM

You will, of course, note the attempt to conflate so-called Islamophobia (which, in the Alice in Wonderland world that Muslims in Europe seem to live in, means anything that they want it to mean when they use that word) with some putative, not named and non-specific (probably fictional) nationalist parties (that simply don't exist excepting in the fevered and over-heated imaginations of the European Muslims themselves) and with loyalty to one's country and its institutions and simple decent western humanitarianism.

Cunningly, these Muslims attempt, in the most subtle of ways, to make everything decent and wholesome appear dirty and unclean. They lie, and are not ashamed of their lies, "Muslims lived together with Christians in Spain and Bosnia for centuries" being just one example - the operative word 'together' implying, untruthfully, a state of being that never existed excepting in the febrile imaginings of Muslims and their apologists.

More than that she says that "...the words European and Muslim are still not used in the same sentence..." without specifying why they should be so used. As somebody else on this site said fairly recently (but I forget who) Muslims cannot be European - they may hold the passports but they cannot actually be European, they can't belong because the tenets of Islam and the post-Christian secular beliefs of Europeanism are mutually exclusive: one can only be one or the other but not both.

What is more "Bozkurt strongly complains that the stage for the debate on Islam has been left totally to ultranationalist parties". This is really clever. In other words, if you are accused of Islamophobia then you must also be an ultranationalist (whatever that word might mean). Regardless of whether or not others might be present on the stage and debating for or against Islam she clearly states that the stage has been vacated by all but the ultranationalists. She has here uttered an unprovable illogicality.

Really this is just the opening salvo in yet another attempt to confuse Joe Public. It belongs with the attempt to confuse Islam with all the other religions - if you don't like Islam then you are just a religion hater - and aligns itself, as an argument, with those who (deliberately?) seek to confuse not liking Islam with racism - Islam is a religion, not a race. Do you see what I'm driving at? According to Bozkurt, if you have grave reservations about Islam then you must belong to that most suspicious of all political groups - the ultranationalists (whoever they might be!).

It's really rather subtle but I don't think that anyone here will be fooled by this for one moment.

Posted by: OliverPCamford at August 2, 2007 1:31 AM

The EU is an eldorado for failed leftie loonies from the late sixties, and Muhammedan infiltration already takes its toll.

Even if there are 30 million Muhammad worshippers in the EU, their representation in the EU parliament should not exceed 10%, but fact is it already exceeds 20. And they are in cahoots with the commies, who are now driven around like royalty in high powered luxury limousines.

It is an Orwellian scenario. You can see it also in local politics in England, where people like Galloway and Jack(-ass) Straw hold on to their postitions because they're pandering to the Muslim vote, which should have never been given to them in the first place.

Worst of all, they're trying to shut up everyone who speaks up against it. Disgusting!

Posted by: sheik yer'mami at August 2, 2007 1:40 AM

Drawing attention to the generally accepted definition of European culture as “Judaeo-Christian”, Bozkurt thinks it will soon be “Judaeo-Christian-Islamic.”

Yes, and shortly after that it will become Islamo-Judaeo-Christian, then Islamo-Christian, then just plain old Islamic.

Posted by: traeh at August 2, 2007 1:44 AM

sheik yer'mami/

Don't know what you are driving at here but as far as I can ascertain there are only some 41 Muslim MEPs at most. Religion is not listed separately on the EU websites for MEPs (or for anyone, including Jews, Protestants, Catholics, Orthodox, Hindu, Sikh, Buddhist or anyone else).

Can you provide a reference for your assertion that the representation of Muslims in the EU Parliament now exceeds 20% of the members or are you refering to the stupidity of those who have chosen to be associated with what is already being laughingly referred to as 'the Bozkurt' caucus by the majority of sane MEPs.

Posted by: OliverPCamford at August 2, 2007 1:56 AM

"Yes, and shortly after that it will become Islamo-Judaeo-Christian, then Islamo-Christian, then just plain old Islamic."

Posted by: traeh

I think not. European societies are a lot stronger and more individual than Americans care to acknowledge for we are not you even though many of you think that you are some semblance or other of us. We behave differently from your expectations for we have a different world experience from you - and much more slowly for we are not as volatile as you - but we know where our own interests lie. We seek compromise and comfort right up to the bitter end but then - ah, but then!

Wait for the bitter end!

Posted by: OliverPCamford at August 2, 2007 2:04 AM

OliverPCamford:

Because the European mainstream so far presents little in the way of opposition to Islamization of Europe, a situation is developing where, unfortunately, often only extreme rightist parties offer any resistance to Islam.

If that situation continues, if the European center fails to resist Islamization, eventually we could see civil wars developing between fascists and Muslims, while the utopian pacifist Left will be trodden under foot, marginalized and pushed aside. If the last century and current trends are any indication, Europe seems to have difficulties with the realism and centrism required to sustain democracies. Ideologies, fanatacisms, utopias, pacifisms, Europe has in plenty. But realism and centrism often seem lacking. (I am not necessarily including the UK in that, and there are other exceptions to what seems to be a European pattern.) I wish Europe only the best.

Posted by: traeh at August 2, 2007 2:08 AM

European societies are a lot stronger and more individual than Americans care to acknowledge.

Posted by: traeh at August 2, 2007 2:13 AM

traeh/

You said "Because the European mainstream so far presents little in the way of opposition to Islamization [sic] of Europe, a situation is developing where, unfortunately, often only extreme rightist parties offer any resistance to Islam."

I'll grant you that that is so in the political arena but I have to say to you that in the normal course of public debate - in the cafes, the libraries, the restaurants, the tearooms, the barracks, the regimental messes, the working-men's-clubs, the chambers' of commerce breakfast meetings, the Clubs on St. James', the private house parties, the after dinner conversations, the beach parties, the student debates and in so many more ordinary places where we, the public, meet and talk, it is not so.

We, the European public, are, when it comes to Islam, completely at variance with the politicallly powerful who seek to run our lives. A dichotomy is building in Europe, a deep and heartfelt movement of Europeans, who see only too plainly where our political masters are leading us is emerging. That we are hamstrung by laws and regulations that we ourselves, supported in the name of equality has not escaped our notice.

But, and it it is a very big but, it seems to me that you Americans seem to think that we Europeans are an aquiescent and cowardly bunch. This is not so. History proves, as you should well know, that we can only be pushed so far.

The sticking point has not yet been reached, however.

Posted by: OliverPCamford at August 2, 2007 2:30 AM

'Muslims lived together with Christians in Spain and Bosnia for centuries'...
Thanks to Bat Yeor and Andrew Bostom, we can re-translate that innocuous sentence to correctly reflect the abundantly documented historical facts: 'Muslims oppressed, enslaved and killed Christians and Jews in Spain for eight hundred years'. "Muslims oppressed, enslaved and killed Christians and Jews in Bosnia for many centuries".

Bozkurt is a Turk. Her ancestors ruled over dhimmi peoples in the Balkans and south central Europe with a heavy hand and an iron heel, grinding the life out of the land and the peoples.

When she mentioned Bosnia, the Greek MEPs should have risen to their feet and howled one word at her: DEVSHIRME!!!

Posted by: dumbledoresarmy at August 2, 2007 3:55 AM

Oliver, my info is first hand directly from a member of the EU parliament. It is not official and no, they don't advertise it and I won't give you his name.

http://sheikyermami.com/2007/08/02/australia-better-safe-than-sorry/

Posted by: sheik yer'mami at August 2, 2007 4:17 AM

When she mentioned Bosnia, the Greek MEPs should have risen to their feet and howled one word at her: DEVSHIRME!!!

Posted by: dumbledoresarmy

I completely agree, unfortunately waiting for miracles from politicians seems to be a waste of time no matter where they're from.

Tonight I had the pleasure of having coffee with my sister's mother in-law who was visiting from Greece. She has a unique perspective as a Greek born and raised in Egypt, she lives primarily in Athens now, but also lives in Cairo for a couple of months the year.

She told me how many people simply forget the pain their ancestors have gone through, and how many believe that if you treat everyone with dignity it will be reciprocated. This of course disturbs her and myself as we know better.

She told me a story about a housekeeper she employed for many months in Cairo. This housekeeper had no problem asking for handouts as her family always seemed to need something, my sister's mother in-law would always give her something to take home. One day the housekeeper approached her and told her that she thought my mother in law was a great person, and this really perplexed her because she was not Muslim. Why don't you become Muslim because you are too good a person to remain Christian? Well after she was told that many Christians are good people, just as there are many good and bad Muslim's the housekeeper just couldn't accept it. She ultimately quit, but lasted much longer than her replacement who walked out soon as she found out she was working for a Christian. I was given a lot of stories this evening that simply are disturbing to say the least.

The moral of this story is that Muslim's no matter where they are, always look at everyone as if they are the superior, even a housekeeper cleaning the house of an infidel. What do the leftists of Europe or North America know about this mindset to comment on Islamophobia?

Posted by: The fanatic at August 2, 2007 4:19 AM

More eurabian nonsense.

Posted by: Crusader at August 2, 2007 4:39 AM

But, and it it is a very big but, it seems to me that you Americans seem to think that we Europeans are an aquiescent [sic] and cowardly bunch.

I think some rabid American commenters, when angry about lack of European support for American foreign policy, lash out with emotional insults. But Americans know very well the courage of Britain during WWII. Most Americans revere Churchill. Most Americans understand that Europeans in general have their share of courage. Most Americans are of European heritage.

Pacifism (not lack of courage), does seem remarkably widespread in Europe. If that's so, it betokens a dearth of political wisdom, and of wisdom in general, or so it seems to me.

But I don't mean to turn this into a tiff between Americans and Europeans. Obviously we Americans have our flaws too, and we need to stick together with Europeans and both sides need to learn from each other. Islam during the course of history has too often dominated by causing division among non-Muslims. See Bat Ye'or's book, Islam and Dhimmitude, for some examples of that.

Posted by: traeh at August 2, 2007 4:54 AM

Yes, so the elites can paint the picture that Europe was always Judaeo-Christian-Islamic. But, in the Middle East, where Jews and Christians existed before Muslims, they are always looked on as outsiders, 'Crusaders,' their histories are suppressed, their religions degraded, with dhimmi status. The Muslims always want it both ways, until they can get to the point where it is only THEIR way.

Posted by: maryrose at August 2, 2007 5:26 AM

"European Socialists take aim at "Islamophobia"

translated:

They will cement anti-vilification laws to be used against people like us, they will use taxpayer funding to support Muhammedan clerics with 3 wifes and 15 children to spew hatred, they will facilitate more mosques and suppress all dissent.

Add the rest yourself...

Posted by: sheik yer'mami at August 2, 2007 6:09 AM

Actually Europe is Greco-Roman, as Ancient Greece and Ancient Rome are the foundations of Europe. If we acknowledge that, then Islam cannot snuck it's way into it's description of Europe.

Posted by: Voltaire at August 2, 2007 6:26 AM

Attention all Brits
Are you opposed to Britain signing away any more powers to the EU?

If the answer is yes then you can sign the following petition at the Prime Minister's website

Link here

http://petitions.pm.gov.uk/EU-treaty-NON/

If sufficient people sign then the Government will have to hold a referendum

If you feel strongly about this then you can email this link to other people in your address book.

Posted by: Odyessus at August 2, 2007 7:28 AM

wants to "listen" to the 20 million Muslims now living in Europe in a bid to understand their problems, as well as provide solutions to alleviate their grievances.

WTF. are they so brain dead they havent got a clear fix on this yet?

Posted by: KAOSKTRL at August 2, 2007 7:39 AM

“Muslims lived together with Christians in Spain and Bosnia for centuries. Nevertheless, they are still looked upon as foreigners -- they are not deemed real citizens,” said Bozkurt, stressing that the words European and Muslim are still not used in the same sentence.

There's a bit of a difference betwen living together and conquering and ruling over, Ms. Bozkurt, and the various Muslim rulers of Spain were quite brutal toward both Christians and Jews, which probably helped the Reconquista along quite nicely. The King of Spain made the point rather nicely on the 400th anniversary back in the early 1990s, when he offered an apology to the Jews for the Inquistion, but not the Muslims, as the Jews came to Spain to live in peace whereas the Muslims didn't.

Posted by: waterdragon52 at August 2, 2007 7:40 AM

That is true waterdragon. They always talk about Muslims in Spain but never the context of how and why Muslims arrived in Spain in the beginning of the 8th century.

Posted by: Elric66 at August 2, 2007 7:43 AM

I do pray Oliver is correct. I just would like to know what the tipping point is.

Posted by: Elric66 at August 2, 2007 8:11 AM

Voltaire,
Actually, Europe is greco-roman AND Judeo-Christian. It was the Judeo-Christian part of Europe's culture that resisted the Islamo-fascist invasions, not the greco-roman part of Europe.
The unifying force behind Charles Magne, and the Europeans who fought the Turks in Viena, was the commom defence of their our culture, of which Judeo-Christianism was the most important part.

This can be clearly seen by the days we are living now. Europe has "moved" beyond their Judeo-CHristian culture, and the consequence of that is that we no longer feel that it's worth while defending ourselves against Islamo-nazis.

Posted by: Crusader at August 2, 2007 8:50 AM

Please dont ignore the fact that although the 'European Union' has its ways and stated aims, as ridiculous and useless as they are...they are NOT representative of the views of the UK people...

NOT ONE PERSON in the UK under the age of 49 has EVER been given a choice on being part of the European Union...

Those that are 49 and over were asked, 31 years ago... whether they wanted to be part of the European Common Market...a previous, less controlling and harmful incarnation of the same beast...which was pitched as being essential for UK economic growth.

Europe? as big a problem for the UK as iSlum.

Posted by: MrTommyAtkins at August 2, 2007 8:54 AM

The roots of Islamophobia stem from Post Islamic Stress Disorder. Individuals who suffer from Post Islamic Stress Disorder (PISD) have suffered psychological trauma as the result of Islamic aggression or intolerance and, therefore, develop a natural aversion to Islamic aggression or intolerance.

Indeed, anything which smacks of Islamic aggression, or Islamic intolerance is perceived by the sufferer of PISD as a threat to the sufferers personal safety, civil rights or freedom of speech or religion.

Therefore, any attempt by individuals, groups or governments to penalize sufferers of PISD only exacerbate cases of PISD. In fact, by targeting sufferers of PISD, more citizens succumb to PISD, initiating a viscious cycle of rampant PISD stimulus and response.

Increasing reports in the news that PISD will not be tolerated by Islamic bigots and aggressors only serves to increase the severity and duration of PISD episodes. It serves no purpose whatsoever for individuals, groups or governments to censure sufferers of PISD, or to even make PISD somehow unlawful or criminal. In fact, PISD sufferers have a God given (YAHWEH JEHOVAH) right to their fears and apprehensions about Islamic intolerance and aggression.

Islamic intolerance and aggression perpetrated and justified by the rationale of "Allah willing," merely intensify PISD since Allah is neither YAHWEH nor JEHOVAH. Who then, is Allah? And, why is PISD a thoughtcrime which cannot be tolerated in free and civilized societies?

Posted by: BurkasforHitlery at August 2, 2007 8:59 AM

The roots of Islamophobia stem from Post Islamic Stress Disorder. Individuals who suffer from Post Islamic Stress Disorder (PISD) have suffered psychological trauma as the result of Islamic aggression or intolerance and, therefore, develop a natural aversion to Islamic aggression or intolerance.

Indeed, anything which smacks of Islamic aggression, or Islamic intolerance is perceived by the sufferer of PISD as a threat to the sufferers personal safety, civil rights or freedom of speech or religion.

Therefore, any attempt by individuals, groups or governments to penalize sufferers of PISD only exacerbate cases of PISD. In fact, by targeting sufferers of PISD, more citizens succumb to PISD, initiating a viscious cycle of rampant PISD stimulus and response.

Increasing reports in the news that PISD will not be tolerated by Islamic bigots and aggressors only serves to increase the severity and duration of PISD episodes. It serves no purpose whatsoever for individuals, groups or governments to censure sufferers of PISD, or to even make PISD somehow unlawful or criminal. In fact, PISD sufferers have a God given (YAHWEH JEHOVAH) right to their fears and apprehensions about Islamic intolerance and aggression.

Islamic intolerance and aggression perpetrated and justified by the rationale of "Allah willing," merely intensify PISD since Allah is neither YAHWEH nor JEHOVAH. Who then, is Allah? And, why is PISD a thoughtcrime which cannot be tolerated in free and civilized societies?

Posted by: BurkasforHitlery at August 2, 2007 8:59 AM

What's really outrageous is that they're actually claiming that "far-right and ultranationalist groups" have dominated the debate, which is a blatant lie. Politically correct multiculturalists have not only dominated the debate but completely stiffled it.

This is exactly like people who see racism around every corner even though it's all in their head. If people are declared mentally unstable when they see and hear things that don't exist, what does that make multiculturalists? Of course, they could also be doing this on purpose. There truly is a fine line between genius and insanity, but either way their campaign is working out great.

Posted by: Jesus Christ Supercop at August 2, 2007 9:12 AM

Visitors to this site should be aware, if they are not already aware, of a demonstration taking place outside the European Parliament in Brussels on the afternoon of Tuesday 11th September to protest against the increasing 'Islamification' of Europe.

Visit 'sioe.wordpress.com' for more information.

STOP THE ISLAMIFICATION OF EUROPE

Posted by: LondonBorn&Bred at August 2, 2007 9:25 AM

Visitors to this site should be aware, if they are not already aware, of a demonstration taking place outside the European Parliament in Brussels on the afternoon of Tuesday 11th September to protest against the increasing 'Islamification' of Europe.

Visit 'sioe.wordpress.com' for more information.

STOP THE ISLAMIFICATION OF EUROPE

Posted by: LondonBorn&Bred at August 2, 2007 9:26 AM

Contemporary leftists view themselves as being oh so "special", "broadminded", "modern" and something totally new. But in fact, they are simply following a long line of naive infidels who have misunderstood or underestimated Islam.

History shows that Muslims have always been able to avail themselves of a remarkable and extensive pattern of treachery, opportunism and collaboration from elements among their opponents. The forces of the dar-al-harb were always plagued at the most inopportune times by rebellion, civil war, religious conflict, schism and heresy. Renegades ready to join the Arabs or to “turn Turk” abounded just before or immediately after the warriors of Islam invaded. Often, non-Muslim technicians, mercenaries and scholars seemed to queue up in seeking patronage from Muslim caliphs and sultans. Ambitious non-Muslim rulers and politicians sought alliances against their co-religionists with the Muslims. Many of these were eager to make use of the fierce military energy of Islam and turn it to their own purposes. Suffice it to say that those who played with fire usually themselves ended up burned.

Posted by: RBLA at August 2, 2007 9:38 AM

"You ain't seen nothin' yet"

Great Britain plan would move toward 'religion of state'

A new government study is being condemned by the Christian ministry the Barnabas Fund because its proposals would move closer to imposing Islam in the United Kingdom as "a religion of state."

Among the proposals from the study being considered for implementation is the provision by universities for Islamic studies for all students.

The report was initiated by Bill Rammell, the minister of state for higher education and lifelong learning, officials said. He appointed Ataullah Siddiqui, senior research fellow at the Islamic Foundation, to write it.

The Barnabas Fund, in an analysis, said the report "signals another step toward the Islamisation of Britain and its education system"

"Should this report be implemented, education will be handed over more and more to Muslims who will train and shape the next generation," the analysis said.

http://worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=56973

allah's whores are working very hard to prostitute all of Western Culture into the islamic brothel of slavery.

So, unless you too want to be one of "allah's bitches" as another JW poster once said, I strongly suggest that you fight NOW while you still have a chance.

The barbarian islamic hoards are at YOUR gate!

Posted by: witness at August 2, 2007 9:40 AM

witness-

The "Gospel of Barnabas" was a late medieval forgery used to promote Islam by giving it a false "Biblical" cachet.

Is this "Barnabas Fund" related?

Posted by: profitsbeard at August 2, 2007 10:02 AM

traeh/

"...and we need to stick together with Europeans and both sides need to learn from each other."

Agreed, in spades.

Posted by: OliverPCamford at August 2, 2007 10:18 AM

Witness wrote:
allah's whores are working very hard to prostitute all of Western Culture into the islamic brothel of slavery.

So, unless you too want to be one of "allah's bitches" as another JW poster once said, I strongly suggest that you fight NOW while you still have a chance.

The barbarian islamic hoards are at YOUR gate!

Durn perceptive of you Witness. We'll all be slaving away for Allha once we elect Hitlery & Barrack, and Nancy's Ninnies have free reign and presidential collusion to take all our freedoms away making free thought, free speech, public assembly, the right to bear arms and a host of other Constitutional guarantees with one veiled slight of hand. Hitlery will, in return, bestow universal health insurance, reparations and freebies to desrving peons on Uncle Sam's Plantation.

SOCIALISM will be installed in the White House under the guise of gender-equality, racial-equality as the progressive democratic will of the people. What could be more progressive than voting for a candidate simply because they are a woman or black?

Then, let the auctioning of American freedoms, American values, American military strength commence at bargain basement prices for all the Clinton's Saudi friends and DNC co-conspirators. Bill, at Hitlery's bequest, will begin making his ME rounds with a sufficient entourage of groupies from the State Department. The media whores will swoon at how his white robes gleam on the tarmac as he hops from the domain of one ME tyrant to another selling America out bit by bit until turbans and robes, head scarves and dhimmitude pervade Congress and The White House.

Heck, the military couldn't even wear their uniforms when visiting the WH, BC couldn't even be bothered to go after BL because it would have compromised his popularity in the Muslim World. Now, Hitlery and Barrack will hand him is greatest dream...Amb-azz-adore at large to the ME.

But, Hitlery 'come to far with him that brung her to go back.' So, Americans must vote based on gender and race to ensure that Hitlery gets her turn to run the plantation, Barrack gets to take tea with tyrants as the first partial AA in the WH and Bill gets his marching papers with his groupies.

Posted by: BurkasforHitlery at August 2, 2007 10:23 AM

witness-

The "Gospel of Barnabas" was a late medieval forgery used to promote Islam by giving it a false "Biblical" cachet.

Is this "Barnabas Fund" related?

You might be on to something! From the article:

The Barnabas Fund, which works primarily with Christians in Muslim-majority environments by channeling money from Christians, through Christians to Christians for projects developed by local bodies of believers, said the appointment of Siddiqui, at the outset, signaled a problem.

"It is well known that the Islamic Foundation is an Islamist institute founded by high ranking members of the Pakistani Islamist party, Jama'at-I Islami," the group said. "However, in answer to questions in the House of Commons about possible links between Ataullah Siddiqui and Jama'at-i-Islami, Rammell stated that 'Dr Siddiqui has assured me categorically that he has no links to the Jamaat-e-Islami Party.' … This reveals that Rammell does not understand how Islamists use dissimulation (taqiyya) to hide their real goals while claiming to be moderate and liberal," the analysis said.

Something stinks here; re-read this part about the money flow very carefully! It is worth investigating!

Let's dig into this a little more and post the results.

I have a couple of meetings to run to, but I WILL do this later.

If you can see what you find out that would be great -- thanks for the observation!

Posted by: witness at August 2, 2007 10:31 AM

profitsbeard:
The "Gospel of Barnabas" was a late medieval forgery used to promote Islam by giving it a false "Biblical" cachet. Is this "Barnabas Fund" related?

No. The Barnabas Fund is a UK-based Christian charity which opposes the persecution and suffering of Christians by Muslims worldwide.

It provides financial aid to Christian communities in Muslim countries, and publicizes the oppression of Christians by Islam. The following are among its stated aims:

We seek to tackle persecution at its root by making known the aspects of the Islamic faith which result in injustice and oppression of non-Muslims.

We believe we are called to address the Islamic faith – an ideology which denies human rights and religious liberty to Christian minorities – while continuing to show God’s love to Muslim people.

We seek to inform and enable Christians in the West to respond to the growing challenge of Islam to the Church, society and mission in our own countries.

In its efforts to publicise the threat Islam poses to the West, it resembles a Christianity-based Jihadwatch. The founder and director, Patrick Sookdheo, is a Muslim convert to Christianity, whose article warning the British Govt of the likely future Muslim demand for an autonomous religious state in Britain caused such controversy.

It's worth supporting. Check it out for yourself.

http://www.barnabasfund.org/

Posted by: Matamoros at August 2, 2007 10:47 AM

BTW, the Barnabas Funds full response to the British Government's study cited in the above posting by witness can be found here:

http://www.isic-centre.org/

It provides in full the Fund's scathing criticism of the report, and the provides extensive details of the links between the Islamic Foundation of Leicester - where the report's author is Head of Inter-Faith Relations - and the Pakistani Islamist party Jama'at-i-Islami, which founded the Leicester-based organisation in 1973.

Posted by: Matamoros at August 2, 2007 11:14 AM

"According to Bozkurt, if you have grave reservations about Islam then you must belong to that most suspicious of all political groups - the ultranationalists (whoever they might be!)."
Posted by: OliverPCamford

OliverPCamford -- Thanks for your analysis.

Might the "ultranationalists" be those who are against their own countries being subsumed by the EU?

Posted by: Josephine at August 2, 2007 11:18 AM

Islamophobia does not exist. How can you tackle something that doesn't exist? There is no irrational fear of Islam. Islamists cultivate the fear as a weapon and claim to speak and act for all of Islam. CAIR claims to speak for all Muslims, yet their MO is to instill fear in people through threats and intimidation. Their Wahhabi ideology teaches intolerance and hatred and subjugation of non-Muslims. So to fear them is entirely rational.

People who use the word Islamophobia, however, have a phobia: the irrational fear of anyone who criticizes any aspect of Islam. So maybe Islamophobia-phobia is a real social disease, one that CAIR suffers from.

Posted by: Wimbledon Womble at August 2, 2007 11:37 AM

To: OliverPCamford

You got one thing right. It will be a bitter end.

Posted by: neilmax at August 2, 2007 12:43 PM

As an 'INDEPENDENT' far leftist,

the socialists of Europe piss me off more than Islam does. Nothing but bourgeousie hedonist filth,

yes they want to make peace with Islam--they need to fill up more of their brothels with little girls chained to beds so their pedaphile tourist industry will profit.

[I fricking hate them--with a PASSION]

and I'm toning down the language believe me, but the socialists in Europe are so far from left its not even funny, they are a DISGRACE

they are in the pockets of the rich--money is their god, not equality, not peace, not decency,

NOT EVEN RIDDING OF POVERTY,

you can't believe anything that comes out of their mouth--

they assert compassion--yes their compassion is forcing women to resort to prostitution [e.g. Germany] or lose their benefits--

they assert compassion--yes their compassion is throwing money to send back the trafficked slaves once they get too old to service Johns--the ones who haven't been killed and hacked and tortured in snuff films [e.g. Holland]

Lenin warned of them--this is one point where Lenin was right--

I hope--that the true leftists--rise up and slaughter every one of these vermin that are bringing down the demise of every woman, man and child in Europe--

then the other slave masters as well--Islam.

Put them both where they need to be--gone.

But realistically--it will take the right and the nationalists to do the job--because the left--sold out--

eons ago. Tragic--Stalin was a monster-its just too bad--he aimed at the wrong countries [e.g. Hungary, etc],

he should have moved his forces elsewhere--like, hmmm,

Iran, etc., North Africa. He should have taken care of business there first--forget Europe--his greed for Europe, opened the door for the bourgousie to take over,

and they've with their EU have turned Europe into one mass slave pool--ripe and ready for the drooling raping mouths of the beasts of the opiate that rules minds with the sword.

[sorry but I am not kidding, as a far leftist--the socialists in Europe make me want to puke]

Natasha

Posted by: Natasha at August 2, 2007 1:10 PM

Islam will not defeat the West. There is a big difference between those who took down the Roman Empire and Islamic immigrants. Islamic peoples are skillful at complaining, and breaking things, and consuming resources but they do not organize well. Take your pick of examples throughout history.

A large part of the expansion of Dar al-Islam has been achieved by being bad neighbors and driving the host population elsewhere. Islam will be able to take down the welfare system and change the West, but it will lose in the end. Modern airlift capacity will give future decision makers a humane alternative to historical European (and American) methods of imposing collective will.

Datapoints on American society: 6% of us make things (number going down); 38% of us serve those who make things (government/health care added ~70,000 jobs last month); 5% are looking for work; more than half of us just consume. $70 trillion in unfunded government promises, growing by $3 trillion per year. Throw in some weapons of mass destruction for spice, and this should be an interesting Century. Arm up while its still legal.

Posted by: pez at August 2, 2007 2:48 PM

Islamophobia, fear of Islam

Cruelty in the Quran

Skeptics site has chosen following verses as part of list of those showing cruelty. The following had the word fear in them in this list.

The first quote Skeptics have is

Those who believe not in the Hereafter, for them We have prepared a painful doom.--17:10

which doesn't have the word fear in it, but is relevant anyhow.

quote

127. Allah will throw fear into the hearts of the disbelievers, and smite their necks and fingers. 8:12

178. Lo! Is fear for you the doom of a besetting Day." 11:84

250. "Fear the Lord ... and dread the Hour of doom." 21:49

351. Those who disobey Allah should fear his doom. 39:13

432. "We left behind therein a portent for those who fear a painful doom." 51:37

453. Allah cast fear into the hearts of the disbelieving People of the Scripture. Their home in the Hereafter will be the Fire. 59:2-3

454. The disbelievers fear the believers more than Allah. 59:13

469. "Lo! the doom of their Lord is that before which none can feel secure" (except for maybe those who are fearful of it). 70:27-28

470. Disbelievers will enter hell with frantic with fear, knowing they will be tortured forever by Allah. 70:36, 44

480. Those who are stubborn to Allah's revelations will face a fearful doom. 74:16-17

end quote

Most Muslims believe the Koran is the word of Allah.

Infidels are supposed to fear Muslims, Islam and Allah according to the Quran. Muslims have to be asked if they believe in the Quran and believe it is binding on them.

They should be asked if these leftists are blaspheming the Koran.

In a sense, the Quran tells infidels, don't allow Muslim immigration, because it will lead to a painful doom for them. Virgil Goode is right.

Leftists who oppose Islamophobia may be engaged in hate speech against the Quran, Muslims and Islam, since the Quran commands Islamophobia to infidels.

Posted by: Old Atlantic at August 2, 2007 3:11 PM

Here are the first 10 items from the cruelty list linked to above.

quote

# Don't bother to warn the disbelievers. Allah has blinded them. Theirs will be an awful doom. 2:6

# Allah has sickened their hearts. A painful doom is theirs because they lie. 2:10

# A fire has been prepared for the disbelievers, whose fuel is men and stones. 2:24

# Disbelievers will be burned with fire. 2:39, 90

# "Whosoever hath done evil and his sin surroundeth him; such are rightful owners of the Fire." 2:81

# If you believe in only part of the Scripture, you will suffer in this life and go to hell in the next. 2:85

# Jews are the greediest of all humankind. They'd like to live 1000 years. But they are going to hell. 2:96

# For disbelievers is a painful doom. 2:104

# For unbelievers: ignominy in this world, an awful doom in the next. 2:114

# "And thou wilt not be asked about the owners of hell-fire." (They are the non-muslims.) 2:119

end quote

It looks like Muslim immigration will lead to a painful doom for infidels. If the leftists support Muslim immigration but oppose Sharia they are saying they want Muslims not to live under Sharia. The Quran says such leftists must suffer a painful doom.

Leftists who deny the Quran commands a painful doom for infidels and say Muslim immigration is good for infidels are blaspheming the Quran.

Posted by: Old Atlantic at August 2, 2007 3:28 PM

It is about time that the citizenry of the world united and took aim at "socialism"!

Not only is the 'Socialism Movement' in reality Communism it is a state-manufactured and imposed ideology which no one needs anymore. The fact that Socialists are utilizing a pseudo-term to denote a pseudo-condition for an understanding that weakens their political powerbase exposes the socialist movement's roots in Communism.

"Socialism" can now clearly be seen as having lent itself to repression in the same vein as Communism and Islam have (which is in itself unsurprising as all three are state-imposed and manufactured ideologies that do not recognize the value of the individual in society).

This also exposes the EU as less than democratic in nature--ominous indeed.

Posted by: pythagoras at August 2, 2007 4:19 PM

half of hte british labour party are from communits/marxist/trotsky roots. does anyone know if gordon brown was a member of hte communist party? i know that john reid was/is.

the mainly adher to the "bevan" socialist movement.

Posted by: leonthepigfarmer at August 2, 2007 4:51 PM

One MEP has it right - more or less.

Meanwhile, UK Independence Party MEP Gerard Batten claimed that the EU was in denial over the true roots of terrorism.

"This type of newspeak shows that the EU refuses to face reality," he said. "The major world terrorist threat is one posed by ideology and that ideology is inspired by fundamentalist jihadi Islam."

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2007/03/30/wislam30.xml

Posted by: DP111 at August 2, 2007 4:52 PM

Most of the ruling elkite in the EU, were at one time communists. After the fall of the Berlin wall, they quickly rebranded thenselves as socialists or social democrats.

Posted by: DP111 at August 2, 2007 4:55 PM

Believing that Islam is now a European religion

Belief is quite different from fact. Islam is a religion of tribal people, and best suited to the tribal arena. Europe is nation based, and not tribal in that sense at all.

Just because there are 20 million Muslims who are in Europe does not make it European, just as the millions of south Asians in Saudi Arabia does not make Hinduism a Saudi religion.

Posted by: DP111 at August 2, 2007 5:41 PM

"Actually Europe is Greco-Roman, as Ancient Greece and Ancient Rome are the foundations of Europe" --from above

Perhaps the historical revisionists would have us believe that Europe's cultural underpinnings are actually Greco-Roman-Hun?

Posted by: Chatillon at August 2, 2007 5:43 PM

Laurence Auster has a good piece on the Greco-Roman or Christian based Western civilisation.

http://www.amnation.com/vfr/archives/week_2005_05_01.html

Scroll right down to the last article.

Posted by: DP111 at August 2, 2007 6:12 PM

There is nothing, nothing that will alter what the Islamofascists are after, except confrontation on all fronts around the world with the truth of their deceit with fully documented information. Most will keep their heads in the sand, until they lose them. But, sufficient numbers of others will add to the chorus of voices denouncing this dreadful evil of corrupt killers found in every country in the world. We will have to bear the spillage of blood everywhere on the planet, but we must never submit, we must all stand together and fight. They, the Islamofascists will accept nothing else....ever except submission or death! That is a truth every single person on Earth must hear, understand and be prepared to stand up against.

Posted by: sharinlite at August 2, 2007 6:46 PM

Islam and its followers must be confined to the lands where they belong, and leave the rest of us in peace. Else there will be a war that will be even bloodier then previous wars of religion, if for no reason then the technology for killing is so much better.

Basic humanity and compassion requires that we do our best to prevent such a war, but war will come if the liberal utopian agenda of tolerance for all, including Islam, continues along its path.

God help us.

Posted by: DP111 at August 2, 2007 8:12 PM

On wonders about the left, the shift from class based or economic based politics to ethnic politics may seem natural, but it is not. In the US one can make a case for it (a sad case that has the left wallowing is support of Chicano rights and ignoring West Virginian coal miners). Even that flawed case does have the left supporting some who are powerless (ie: Mexicans) but ignoring others (ie: those who might be called Rednecks). The US has had a long history of racism. The groups in the US that are supported by the left are not actively involved in destroying the US. (Yes we all know that Puerto Ricans shot up the White House in the 1950's and the some Native Americans were violent in the 1970's but these things didn't take hold).

In Europe it is different, however deprived Muslims are in Europe they were never enslaved as African Americans were, nor were they forced on reservations. Their plight is mostly self induced. What is different in Europe is the Muslims have actively taken up arms against their neighbors, the numbers may be small, but just compare the numbers of Muslims who are violent to African Americans, Native Americans or any other deprived group.

So, one wonders about the left. Why are they supporting people who would happily behead them?

Posted by: Jerry M at August 2, 2007 9:51 PM

To understand 'christendom', I recommend the following:

1. G K Chesterton - "Orthodoxy" and "The Everlasting Man" (which includes a terrific chapter on Rome vs. Carthage, called 'The War of the Gods and the Demons'). Jewish readers should note that Chesterton does not seem to know about the Septuagint and Jewish engagement with Greek culture prior to the time of Christ, and that he does not have a CLUE as to how profoundly Jewish Jesus/ Yeshua actually is, nor that everything he [GKC] says about the church vs The World can be said also, with perfect accuracy, about the Jews and about Israel, vs The World. Those caveats aside, it's a great book.

2. Joshua A Berman, 'God's Alliance with Man', in Azure (online Jewish magazine), summer 2006 - wonderful article on the religio-socio-political revolution implicit within the Sinai covenant. Americans in particular should read, and reflect.

3. David Bentley Hart, "The Beauty of the Infinite: the Aesthetics of Christian Truth", especially the sections entitled 'The Covenant of Light', 'Divine Counterpoint', and 'The Consolations of Tragedy, the Terrors of Easter'.

Read these and you will understand that we the 'west' (and indeed, all 'christendom') are what we are, even in the modern post-enlightenment world, because of the Jewish and the Christian energies that entered into and transfigured everything else - be it Nordic, Saxon, Irish, Russian, Greek or Roman, or, for that matter, Armenian or Assyrian. We cannot evade or deny that history.

And you will understand why Islam, with its promotion of slavery and tyranny and its icily remote, vengeful, loveless and all-annihilating allah, has nothing to do with Europe at all, except as an implacable enemy, a vampire civilisation that has destroyed more (in Spain, in the Balkans, in Greece) than it ever created.

Posted by: dumbledoresarmy at August 2, 2007 11:24 PM

"Might the "ultranationalists" be those who are against their own countries being subsumed by the EU?"

Posted by: Josephine

Well, yes! And also those opposed to their countries being subsumed into the Islamic world. One must bear in mind, here, that the EU need not necessarily be the enemy. It is, after all, merely an institution, and, as an institution and a vision, quite a good idea. That which currently makes it (the EU) our enemy is the fact that it has been hi-jacked by people who have a perverted value system - not an evil or bad value system, but one which has been perverted by those who are evil and wicked in our eyes - Islam.

Those believers in this strange world-vision which is the EU today are not wicked, evil or bad. Indeed, they are good people whose beliefs have been mis-appropriated for evil ends by those who seek only the destruction of Western pluralism and freedoms.

It is, for them - the people who control the EU - extremely difficult to see the difference between Western values and Islamic values because the enemy (Islam) disguises itself by using the ages old Western voices of enlightenment and freedom: Islam uses, in other words, our own systems and values against us in order to further its own dictatorial imperatives.

We in the West are societies of the enlightenment, societies of freedom, and we find it hard - given our history - to voluntarily curtail freedoms, even when we know that we ought to, even if those using such freedoms are, in reality, working against the very concepts which give rise to those freedoms and working against those very freedoms.

The weaknesses of the West is our freedoms and the paramount freedom we grant to all who come here. The weakness, paradoxically, of Islam is the lack of freedom and the Muslim's inability to acknowledge our absolute concept of freedom as a valid state under God.

As long as any of their number can talk about some human beings being the 'enemies of God', and as long as they feel that they can be the judge of this state and the arbiters of the final destinies of those found accused, and, often (much too often), guilty, of being in this state, then we, the Western children of the Enlightenment, are perfectly free to laugh them out of court and to attack them by any means possible.

In our value systems, you see, only God (if you believe in that way) can judge. In their value systems they, though they are weak and pathetic humans, believe that they should judge for God - that they, and they alone, know what God intends and that their so-called prophet has provided a compleat guide to God's mind. This, to any Western mind, is blasphemy of the highest order. For most of us Christians in the West it is this blasphemy that they utter, repeatedly, that turns us off. Simply put - for Christians Islam is blasphemy. It follows logically that Islam is double blasphemy for Western secularists for not only does it (Islam) promote an unprovable God but it also promotes a God of murder and violence. In as much as a secularist can conceptually blaspheme then Islam must be the defining concept of blasphemy for a secularist.

Posted by: OliverPCamford at August 3, 2007 12:33 AM

So now the UN-ELECTED bureaucratz of the European "Union" pass their edicts and their laws which will affect the entire populace of the "new empire".

A German blogger referred to this rather brilliantly - imho - as a Coup D'état in ultra slow-motion.

Kind of like the thing about the frog in the pot of water which is being slowly heated.. until the frog has no time to escape.. and ultimately dies..

WAY TO GO, 'Europe'!!!

Fascists.. blech!!

Posted by: Allahfanculo at August 3, 2007 12:36 AM

Who is Islamic? The Middle Easterns..which has invaded our lands. The black in America who come from Africa and the prisoner's who were persuaded to become a Muslim (which many are in compounds) and lets not forget Asian Muslim's in America.

How many has taken up arms in America right under our nose's and preparing for the day of "deliverance from America(sic)."

These hounds from hell...regardless of where they come from...do their sneaky work in shadow's. They are a menace to society. They corrupt the mind's of youth's. They drug our youth's into submission.

Their scare tactics will become worse. They will utilize whatever they can to take over. Did they not say...that 4,000,000 Americans must die so Mahdi can arrive...or did I mistaken this?

Was it a communist who stated America will be taken from within? Socialism is a stepping stone to Communism...and it is time for all people to open their eyes up and fight this bitter foe (Pelosi, kennedy, Obama,Hitlery,Ellison,Edwards, Reid, whats the ol fart's name that rules them...lol...the MoveOn.Org communist dude!

Now Europe has both just like we have both..."two peas in a pod" ...Communist and Islam with Hitler stewed in with them...Mein Kampf.

Both our nations should rise up and pound the Islam right in its "gut" by banning the Koran from our nation! By banning the occult all together which is a pure evil and disastrious so called religion of horror. Why let them hang out in our nations taking a free ride while they brainwash our young people into their occult!

Personally I prefer all Islam/Muslim out of my country..they do not produce any good results. What did President John Kennedy say, "Ask not what your country can do for you, but what you can do for your country." His brother should take his advice but his brother is a nutbrain. What can we do for our country...remove the evil (Islam) and God will Bless us again. Until we get rid of all the people who by worshipping a false moon god, (so this nation can be cleansed for Holy God...Jehovah)! We will suffer greatly with terrorists, natural disasters...etc. It is our call...wake up America and Europe!

Posted by: Cher at August 3, 2007 3:54 AM

Every time this comes up about islamophobia, it gives us a chance to put islam under a microscope. They are too stupid to realize that more and more people are waking up to thier bs to it being a religion of peace.

We seriously need to stop islam immigration into free lands. It will be the death of us...literally.

Posted by: Highrise at August 3, 2007 5:25 AM

"In our value systems, you see, only God (if you believe in that way) can judge. In their value systems they, though they are weak and pathetic humans, believe that they should judge for God - that they, and they alone, know what God intends and that their so-called prophet has provided a compleat guide to God's mind. This, to any Western mind, is blasphemy of the highest order."

OliverPCamford -- Thank you for your well-written, interesting reply. I agree with you.

But, oy vay, don't get me started on Islam and blasphemy (against Christ) first thing in the morning!

I'll go have another cup of tea and calm down...

Posted by: Josephine at August 3, 2007 6:35 AM

Visitors to this website and to Brussels should be told that a demonstration outside the European Parliament will take place in the afternoon of Tuesday 11th September from 1pm.

You can get further information from "sioe.wordpress.com"

STOP THE ISLAMIFICATION OF EUROPE

Posted by: LondonBorn&Bred at August 3, 2007 7:29 AM

Visitors to this website and to Brussels should be told that a demonstration outside the European Parliament will take place in the afternoon of Tuesday 11th September from 1pm.

You can get further information from "sioe.wordpress.com"

STOP THE ISLAMIFICATION OF EUROPE

Posted by: LondonBorn&Bred at August 3, 2007 7:30 AM

Hey. What about "Westernophobia." After all, we're not the ones bombing little kids, the elderly, handycapped, civilians doing a days wages. bozkurt, grow a brain.

Posted by: mustang65 at August 3, 2007 12:05 PM

Nice try, but no cigar. There are few in Europe left do not see Islam as a danger. And contradictory what the socialists want to believe there is not much they can do about except crying the right-wingers are making a big success out of it.

Posted by: DrWolffenstein at August 3, 2007 12:19 PM

OliverPCCamford:

Europe would not exist in its present democratic state (declining as that now clearly is) without assistance from the United States' during the twentieth century. Most likely Europeans would all be speaking German and living under a drastically altered, totalitarian culture (and under the thumb of the Fuhrer).

We therefore have a very realistic idea of the strength of European cultures (over 50 million people died in the two twentieth century global wars begun by western European cultures).

What we Americans are expressing grave doubts about is the strength of European societies' ability to remain part of the free world.

Liberty in Europe appears doomed and that is probaby because Europeans' allegiance to freedom was weak to begin with.

Posted by: pythagoras at August 3, 2007 1:39 PM

"Liberty in Europe appears doomed and that is probaby because Europeans' allegiance to freedom was weak to begin with."
Posted by: pythagoras

Nah, pythagoras, not so.

Posted by: Josephine at August 3, 2007 3:17 PM

pythagoras/

WWI was caused by the the actions of a Bosnian Serb - quelle surprise - and was made much worse by the Ottomans (Churchill's book - and I have a much loved and well read signed first edition on my shelves - "What of the Dardanelles" explains the Ottoman (Muslim?) viewpoint well and in his own inimitable style). It is also a recorded historical fact that American isolationism did not exactly aid the war effort in the the early stages of WW1. We had to fight the 1914-18 Great War without the assistance of the USA right up to the 6th. April, 1917. Late, as usual, in the defence of freedom. Still, better late than never, I suppose!

As for WWII, where the hell were you? What took you so long? We had to start fighting in October '39: the USA joined in only after the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor on the 7th. December, 1941 - over two years later. Well, gee, thanks! Better late than never, I suppose!

In both those conflicts we, the democratic powers of Western Europe, may not have been able to win outright against our manifold enemies but, and this has to be said, they could not have won against us either. The worst case we could have found ourselves in was going to be a prolonged stalemate although many analysts agree that the western European democracies would have eventually won against both Germany and Japan but that such a victory would have taken over a decade and a half but for the intervention of the USA. The USA's intervention, late though it was, tipped the balance in the favour of the democracies - thank God.

But please never forget that a substantial body of opinion in the USA was in favour of supporting the Axis powers over the UK and its allies in both of those conflicts and that that same body kept the USA out of both of those wars right up until two charismatic American Presidents made powerful and emotional appeals in Congress - which succeeded, thank Heaven.

A huge tranche of anti-Americanism in Europe today is directly attributable to the shilly-shallying of USA politicians in the opening years of both of those conflicts. We are, obviously, the children of our parents who had nothing good to say about America's late entry into WWII, and of our grandparents who, equally, had nothing good to say about America's late entry into WWI.

But let me close this post by saying that no European today feels anything other than a profound sadness when confronted by the sacrifice of the brave young men and women of America who came to our aid in both of those wars. So many of yours and ours perished that it seems, in the end, to me that I am just being petty in raking up the political stupidities of the past.

When one walks amongst the graves and reads the names of service personnel who fought and died for the very freedoms that we here enjoy today, when you check the dates and see how very many young lives were senselessly lost then that's when you realise that our various national commemoration and remembrance days have real meaning - and that's when you realise that once again our stupid politicians are signing away our freedoms and placing us on a path that must inevitably lead to conflict by their love affair with Islam. We must stop this now for it offends the memories of the very many dead in the previous conflicts over freedom. If we lose this one then their sacrifices were indeed stupid and unnecessary and we don't deserve their bravery!

Posted by: OliverPCamford at August 3, 2007 11:13 PM

Pythagoras/

Oh, and your deliberate, crude and insulting distortion of my 'posted by' name has been noted. Must we descend to cruel and unnecessary jibes when debating the issue of Islam today? Is it compulsory to vilify those who may hold a slightly different opinion from one's own?

Rather, I would say to you, we must maintain a civilised discourse for that, surely, is what marks us out from the violent terrorists, the lying manipulators of freedom and the slick, oily-mouthed weasels of Islam and its apologists.

BTW, my middle name - indicated by the 'P' - is Percival: I blame my parents, but then who doesn't?

Posted by: OliverPCamford at August 3, 2007 11:34 PM

think not. European societies are a lot stronger and more individual than Americans care to acknowledge for we are not you even though many of you think that you are some semblance or other of us. Posted by Oliver P. Camford

I'm not sure exactly how to take your comment but it sort of rubbed me the wrong way, especially the last nineteen words. Like it or not, we ARE "some semblance or other" of you; most of us still have relatives in Europe! We obviously don't think alike, but I guess that's why you're still there and we're here. Nonetheless, we still love you and we don't want to see the savages destroy Europe; we want the best for Europe, believe me.

Posted by: Susanp at August 4, 2007 1:40 AM

I guess they want more of this :

The "no muslims here ,move along,move along" bbc version of the truth(sic)
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/staffordshire/6281726.stm

& less of this :

The "islamophobic" BNP truthful version of the same story
http://www.bnp.org.uk/reg_showarticle.php?contentID=2620

Posted by: TrueBrit at August 4, 2007 7:01 AM

"...we must maintain a civilised discourse for that, surely, is what marks us out from the violent terrorists, the lying manipulators of freedom and the slick, oily-mouthed weasels of Islam and its apologists."

Posted by: OliverPCamford

I agree.

Percival used to be a very popular name. Wear it with pride. ; )

And Oliver is one of my family names (from Scotland). If I had had a son, I would have named him Oliver.

Posted by: Josephine at August 4, 2007 1:39 PM

"When one walks amongst the graves and reads the names of service personnel who fought and died for the very freedoms that we here enjoy today, when you check the dates and see how very many young lives were senselessly lost then that's when you realise that our various national commemoration and remembrance days have real meaning..."
Posted by: OliverPCamford

I'll never forget seeing all of the grave markers at the Civil War site in Shiloh, Tennessee. Touching the tree under which an historic strategy meeting was held, seeing the size of the "Lake of Blood", knowing that men fought and died, right where I stood and as far as my eyes could see.

It does make it all real.

http://www.nps.gov/shil/

Posted by: Josephine at August 4, 2007 1:55 PM

OliverPCamford:

I see absolutely nothing "crude" in my replies to you. "PC" was a typographical error (I genuinely thought that was your pen name--most people here do NOT use their real names and neither did I suspect that 'PC' would have been considered an insult across the pond--if so I apologize on that score it wasn't intended that way).

But, you have come to the wrong place for sensitivity training sessions my friend. It appears to me as though the truth may be too much for you to handle. This will not help you deal with Islam's infiltration of western Europe (I say western because you will notice that this is less of a problem in eastern Europe).

If you want to see "crude" or "cruel" check out BBC media coverage of the United States. I realize this (probably) has nothing to do with you whatsoever personally but things like that can be prejudice-forming. Here we are used to being insulted (and "vilified") routinely by European media so perhaps we have a thicker hide than you (you'll need to get used to that).

I stand by my point that Europeans' commitment to liberty and democracy is weak. And that weakness vrought about two world wars and is on the way to turning the European continent into a totalitarian state.

Western Europe's present state of drifting towards totalitarian bureaucracy (as evinced by the EU) is not the first time that this has happened with Europe. And how democratically-inclined can a government bureaucracy that forms closer relationships with Putin's Russia and the Muslim world than America really be??

Not very, I'd say.

Posted by: pythagoras at August 4, 2007 3:51 PM

Josephine;

No, it's not "nah!"

Europeans' commitment to democracy and liberty is exceedingly weak and Europe (western Europe at least) is unlikely to remain part of the free world for very much longer. The EU, however much it is a bureaucracy, IS comprised of European people and these people are knowingly and steadily undermining democracy in Europe (and worldwide as Europe has global influence)as a result of their political and personal beliefs.

Check out Bat Ye'or's study called "EURABIA" if you don't think so.

Europe's history is generally NOT one of democracy. It is a history of monarchies, feudalism, and the "Divine Right" to rule and pogroms against the Jews. The United States has been a democractic nation for a longer time than any other country in the world except the United Kingdom. Hitler may have been a dictator but so were most of those European Kings and Queens we think of here as being so quaint and "democratic." Many European Kings and Queens ruled with as iron a fist as almost any third world dictator of the twentieth century you care to mention.

The French government helped the notorious WW2 criminal Hajj Aminal-Husseini escape authorities and sent him back to the Middle East after WW2!

You may have noticed that Europe is not particularly grateful to Americans for eliminating the Third Reich (something they have generally expunged from their collective memory). And today Europe is becoming steadily less representative a government than it was before--a transformation that Europe has already gone through with disastrous results. Does Europe not learn from its past? Or is Europe content to leave representative government in the past? If so what does that say about Europe?

By the way, could you really see Europeans making the sort of sacrifices for Americans that we made for them during WWs 1 and 2 and the Cold War?? If you can, then you're an even bigger fool than I took you for.

Posted by: pythagoras at August 4, 2007 4:12 PM

"If you can, then you're an even bigger fool than I took you for."
Posted by: pythagoras

Oh, pythagoras...

By descending into name-calling and personal attacks, you automatically negate every single one of your arguments.

Reasonable adults can agree on some points and disagree on others.

Relying on emotional over-generalizations and ad hominem attacks doesn't convince the person you are insulting that you are right: it shuts down all semblance of debate. That's just boring.

Posted by: Josephine at August 4, 2007 4:57 PM

pythagoras/

May I offer you my humble apologies. It never crossed my mind that it could have been a typographical error. Please, I had no wish to insult you. These 'typos' happen to all of us and I should have known better than to assume that you meant to insult me. This site, after all, is a keyboard driven site and I am sure that I too will make my fair share of typographical mistakes.

Please accept my apologies.

Josephine, thank you for your support here. I appreciate that - and your timeous reminder about my middle name. Thank-you.

But, dear pythagoras, I have to take issue with you about your statement "You may have noticed that Europe is not particularly grateful to Americans for eliminating the Third Reich (something they have generally expunged from their collective memory)". Well, where do I start. America did not single-handedly eliminate the Third Reich as six million British dead would testify if they had a voice. Nor did America single-handedly eliminate the Japanese threat as many millions of more British, Indian, Burmese, British Commonwealth and Chinese dead would also testify could they but speak.

As to our lack of gratitude for the sacrifice of so many of your young; well, how do you arrive at that conclusion? All over our country the memory of YOUR war dead is honoured on an almost daily basis. In our parish Churches, in front of our many, many monuments to the fallen of that war, on the sites of the USAF bases of that war, in the fields (now returned to their rightful purposes) where the barracks in which your brave young countrymen lived were temporarily built, we celebrate and honour their memory. Your armed services send detachments of service personel many times in a year to attend the various ceremonies which we stage to honour YOUR dead - and, in fairness, I have to say that they also send such people to help us honour our own dead.

So please, don't accuse us of forgetting for that is something that we will NEVER do.

Posted by: OliverPCamford at August 5, 2007 12:07 AM