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It's a room with no exit door.
From MEMRI (thanks to Andrew Bostom):
A public debate has been underway in Egypt over the regime's treatment of the country's Christians. This debate emerged following lawsuits by Christians who had converted to Islam and then reconverted to Christianity, and who were now demanding that the Egyptian Interior Ministry issue them new official documents in their original names and with "Christian" in the "religion" entry field.In April 2007, the Egyptian administrative court rejected an appeal by Christians who had converted to Islam and then reverted to Christianity, and also accused them of apostasy against Islam – the punishment for which is death, according to the common interpretation.
Two months after the court ruling, the plaintiffs' appeal was accepted. The Supreme Administrative Court instructed the Interior Ministry to permit the plaintiffs to have their identity cards again denote them as Christians, and called for a new law banning "playing" with religions. Further ruling in the case was postponed until September 2007.(1)
The Egyptian religious establishment backed up the court's rulings, and at the same time argued that repeated conversion creates confusion that endangers societal stability. The Egyptian press published articles with a similar view, claiming that religion should not be changed with the aim of obtaining material aims. In protest, representatives of the Christian community and human rights organizations in Egypt called this discrimination and violation of freedom of religion.
The following is a review of responses in the Egyptian press to the court ruling:
Egyptian Court: A Christian Who Converts to Islam and Reverts to Christianity is Murtadd(2)
In December 2005, Bashi Razaq Bashi, a Christian who converted to Islam, changing his name to Muhammad Razaq Mahdi, and who subsequently reverted to Christianity, filed a lawsuit against the Egyptian interior minister and the head of the civil affairs department for refusing to issue him an identity card and birth certificate in his original name and with his original religion in the "religion" entry field.(3) The court also had dozens of similar cases awaiting decisions.(4)
The court explained its actions by stating that Egypt's constitution guaranteed the principle of equality of public rights and obligations and freedom of belief and worship, which are also anchored in the international conventions, without discrimination as to gender, origin, language, religion, or belief, as long as this did not harm the public order. At the same time, the court decided that shari'a law took precedence over international convention and the Egyptian constitution in establishing freedom of belief, stating that "there is no coercion in religion [Koran 2:256]."
However, the court ruling went on to state: "There is a big difference between freedom of belief and worship and the freedom that some seek to play with belief by moving between one religion and another for material aims. This game has two stages: first, playing with the [Christian] religion that [a person] adopts and in the name of which he receives official documents from the Interior Ministry and conducts social relations with the rest of the citizens, and second, playing with the religion [of Islam] to which he devoted himself for part of his life and during which he conducted social relations with others, with the intent of reverting to his first religion... "
Read it all.
Posted by Robert at August 7, 2007 2:29 PM
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...converting to Islam in the first place shows your truck is a few bricks short of a full load....
Posted by: exsgtbrown![[TypeKey Profile Page]](http://www.jihadwatch.org/dhimmiwatch/nav-commenters.gif)
at August 7, 2007 3:10 PM
So it is OK to convert from Christianity to Islam but not vice versa? Blatant double standards and hypocrisy!
Posted by: Alert at August 7, 2007 3:26 PM
Apostates from Islam must be killed, they know too much.
Posted by: sheik yer'mami at August 7, 2007 3:58 PM
Anybody remember "The Roach Motel"??
Roaches check in, but they don't check out.
Posted by: Ynkedoodl2 at August 7, 2007 4:00 PM
I would like to know where the Europeans are in all this?
The European Union should be doing something about Egypt as it is trying to cajole Turkey in its misguided ways toward non-Muslims.
What an irony that the West regards Egypt as “moderate”.
at August 7, 2007 4:08 PM
"Apostates from Islam must be killed, they know too much."
.....Ha!.......probably true.....
Posted by: exsgtbrown at August 7, 2007 4:40 PM
...and they know who is in with the in crowd....
Posted by: exsgtbrown at August 7, 2007 4:41 PM
I am totally confused by the JW/DW take on this:
"Two months after the court ruling, the plaintiffs' appeal was accepted. The Supreme Administrative Court instructed the Interior Ministry to permit the plaintiffs to have their identity cards again denote them as Christians, and called for a new law banning "playing" with religions. Further ruling in the case was postponed until September 2007."
On appeal, the court instructed the Ministry to change the ID card to "again denote them as Christians."
Who is responsible for this scrwewd analysis?
Posted by: Pelayo at August 7, 2007 5:00 PM
Does this mean that converting to Christianity and then back to Islam is wrong too?
Didn't think so.
Posted by: CrazyFool at August 7, 2007 5:05 PM
This sort of thing needs to be made much more widely known in the entire non-Muslim world. It might discourage people from getting suckered into Islam, if it is made crystal clear that Islam - Islam, Islam, Islam, as Our Hugh calls it - is a lobster pot. You can get in but you cannot get out. And if you try they will kill you. A classic closed cult.
Every time there is a 'feel good' piece featuring Muslims and Islamic da'wa, anywhere in the Western media, the newspaper/TVchannel/radio station needs to be sent copies of stories like this, or the Lina Joy epic, or the story about the leader of the ex-Muslim group in Holland being ambushed and harassed and threatened. Every time there is an 'inter-faith' gathering, someone has to ask the Muslims there: 'what do YOU do to apostates? What if your child or your sibling converted to another faith, or declared themselves to be an atheist?'
Let's keep publicising this single, ugly fact. Islam mandates death for Apostasy and death for Blasphemy. That requirement is actively enforced in the here and now, not only by Islamised regimes, as we see from this episode in Egypt, but informally - and illegally, under Western law! - by Muslim families and communities even in our midst in the West. Islam, therefore, mainstream contemporary Islam, forbids - and actively destroys - freedom of religion and freedom of speech.
Posted by: dumbledoresarmy at August 7, 2007 6:16 PM
In defense of Egyptians (not all of them, obviously), when I was there people were visibly tired of crap like this. Most Egyptians don't want Sharia to be part of the Constitution (Sadat's widow being the most prominent proponent of this view now). What they are most tired of there is Mubarak's government coddling the Islamists in order to destroy the secular opposition. If it had been a fair election in 2006, Ayman Nour would have soundly trounced any opponent, Islamist or otherwise.
Posted by: GetBornAgain at August 7, 2007 6:21 PM
This article is frightening. I strongly recommend that everyone "read the whole thing", if they haven't already.
They're saying:
1. Leaving Islam is between the person and God. Earthly punishments are not permitted but God will punish them in the hereafter. The courts must abide by this.
2. But... if the person's apostasy will threaten the established order and cause civil war, then the person must be charged with a crime.
3. The courts have the authority to examine the person's mental state. Converting from Christianity to Islam and back to Christianity suggests mental illness. If the person is mentally ill, it's not such a big deal, but the court has the right to determine that and to mandate therapy.
4. If the person is not mentally ill: "Playing games with faiths is outside of [what] freedom [permits]... it sparks civil war..."
"While we believe in the right of the individual, whoever he may be, to adopt any religion, we [also] believe that playing with religion must not be permitted. We believe that no one should be allowed to trade in religions, and to use this as a means of obtaining dishonorable profit or to spark ethnic war [between Christians and Muslims]..."
They give with one hand and take away with the other. They talk out of both sides of their mouths.
I am very glad I don't live in Egypt.
Posted by: Josephine at August 7, 2007 6:49 PM
If someone doesn't get that religious conversion back and forth, and sideways for that matter, is not something for the law to interfere with, what can one say? Are there words to describe how utterly lacking in virtue the culture of Islamic law is?
In one passage in his new book, Robert Spencer points out that without freedom, there can be no virtue. Virtue is a result of making virtuous choices. If someone merely does what compulsion compels, he is an automaton, not a virtuous being. I would add that such a person is no more "virtuous" than any animal following the compulsions of instinct. In fact he is lower than the animal, because at least the animal, in being compelled by instinct, is following its essential nature.
In terms of virtue, there is little essential difference between a person who surrenders to external compulsion to follow some government's alleged morality on the one hand, and someone else who surrenders to the compulsions of unlimited sexual desire. Both persons have fallen to the level of automatons dominated by external forces. Human beings are endowed with a spark of spiritual freedom, and to try to snuff that spark, rather than fan it to a blaze, is to attack the very possibility of virtue.
The fact that repeated polls have shown that large percentages of Muslims find it difficult or impossible to distinguish between apostasy and state treason is a huge indictment of Islam, since it means that Islam suppresses awareness of individual spiritual freedom, and suppresses any possibility of virtue, since virtue means the making of virtuous choices.
Posted by: traeh at August 7, 2007 10:15 PM
Sadly, this is not news. Virtually every non-Muslim nation in the world, particularly, the secular West, not only guarantees freedom of religion to all religious groups, including Islam, and the right to convert, revert or become an apostate and atheist, but also is willing to provide special rights to aggressive groups like Islamists to appease them in the hope of ultimately placating them. It is a lost cause. With every concession, another demand will surface, with Gulf State-funded activists and lawyers ready to challenge equal protection and freedom itself.
The West should continue to guarantee freedom of religion as a personal and non-public matter but, with reference to another post on footbaths, should not give into any demands by any group to legitimize any single religion with any buildings, rooms or renovations to existing facilities. If Catholics or Methodists or Buddhists or Muslims wish to build special facilities, they can do so by raising their own capital and purchasing land and buildings to do what they want, so long as it is legal. But if a public institution, or a private secular institution (the latter being a bit less clear-cut legally) is spending ANY MONEY AT ALL for any reason to build facilities or accommodate one group over another, this is patently unconstitutional.
Back to the original post, I justaxpose these things to show the glaring hypocrisy and insanity of what we are doing in the West. We are bending over backwards, making special Islam-only prayer rooms available, building footbaths to benefit one group alone, etc., while in even the most supposedly "Western" Muslim countries, you see increasing sanctions against any religion but Islam.
If this is not insanity, what is?
Posted by: Wimbledon Womble at August 7, 2007 10:32 PM
Now, why is that one has to even register his or her religious affiliation with the government? The whole idea is ludicrous to me! Who cares how a stupid card identifies you. The government can't tell you who you are nor make you believe anything.
The Egyptian government should just remove the religious affiliation tag altogether.
Posted by: twoCents at August 7, 2007 10:36 PM
"The Egyptian government should just remove the religious affiliation tag altogether."
Posted by: twoCents
According to the article, some people are trying to accomplish that.
However, in Egypt, sharia law supersedes man's law and they probably have an Islamic justification for putting religion on identity cards.
Posted by: Josephine at August 7, 2007 10:53 PM
You can check out anytime you want, but you can never leave.
Posted by: interestinconundrum at August 7, 2007 10:57 PM
twoCents/
In Egypt today it is necessary to register on one's Identity Card one's religious affiliation (belief; origin) in order that the Government may accurately gauge the success of its drive to eliminate Coptic Christianity, and all other versions of Christianity, from Egyptian society. His Excellency President Dr. Mubarrak is on record (Speech in Alex. Ia, 2005, EPR.) as saying that the success of his period of rule will be gauged by the diminution in the number of Christians polluting Egyptian society and that he would like to live long enough to see all the native Christians of Egypt accept the true faith.
traeh/
Well of course. What the h*ll is a government doing enshrining one religion or another as mandatory - as opposed to a government seeking to identify some spirituality in public life, some moral sense, some sense of right and wrong. Separation of Church and State is an absolute pre-requisite of freedom but this is not an acknowledged provision in the Islamic world, where an Islamic supremacist viewpoint overtakes all else. They are simply several hundred years behind us in their concepts pertaining to the soul, the individual, freedom, free-will, spirituality and God. On all of these points they are simply under-reasoned, ill-educated and incapable of rational discussion because Islam has no sophisticated concepts of these concepts. Instead, Islam possesses only a set of rules, laws (if you like), that limit debate about these concepts to a futile and tedious level that we in the West reasoned our way past over one thousand years ago. To put it more simply - Christianity - and other Faiths - have debates about the nature of reality and the natures of God and of Freedom: Islam debates only which version of Islam is likely to be correct whilst neglecting the possibility, which very few of the other faiths do, that it is possible that Islam is, in itself, completely erroneous. All other faiths accept that possibility about themselves and attempt to work around it or reason through it. Only, and singularly, Islam cannot accept that possibility.
But I would ask everyone to carefully analyse Pelayo's take on this issue. He said, in his post:
"Two months after the court ruling, the plaintiffs' appeal was accepted. The Supreme Administrative Court instructed the Interior Ministry to permit the plaintiffs to have their identity cards again denote them as Christians, and called for a new law banning "playing" with religions. Further ruling in the case was postponed until September 2007.
On appeal, the court instructed the Ministry to change the ID card to "again denote them as Christians."
and this seems to indicate that there are still some Egyptians who reason according to first principles and who accept the rule of natural law as part of the legal process.
Pelayo, can you give us a citation for this? For if Pelayo is correct then then the JW/DW take on this would appear to be in error. We might just be making a mountain out of a molehill - a significant molehill, I'll grant you, but a molehill never the less.
Posted by: OliverPCamford at August 7, 2007 11:16 PM
I became a Christian when at church camp, a Burmese Christian gave his testimony, and then he removed his shirt and showed us the stripes on his back, and told us this is what you can expect if you become a Christian. Today I read online that there are believed to be at least 10 000 Christian converts a day in China. Now, I don't know how people can even come up with a number, since a true conversion is of the heart, and really, who but God knows?
At any rate, I am hopeful. Consider: We now know almost instantly all the who, what, why and how of this and other situations. Shameful things that used to be covered up and hidden from public scrutiny are now shouted from the internet rooftops.
Even people in the poorest countries are getting online in cafés and are able to look up sites like this one, or like Ali Sina's, among others.
I am optimistic that the spiritual war we find ourselves in will reap a bountiful harvest. How many more former muslims there may be with the next violent escalation remains to be seen. Just don't lose hope, is all.
Posted by: Jauhara Al-Kafirah at August 7, 2007 11:30 PM
OliverPCamford:
and this seems to indicate that there are still some Egyptians who reason according to first principles...
That's one possibility, but not necessarily the most likely. Maybe someone in the Egyptian government, under discreet pressure from the U.S., which provides billions in "aid" (i.e., bribes, jizya, protection money) to Egypt every year, pulled some strings with the Egyptian court. Mubarak was perhaps informed by the American ambassador that maintaining billions in aid annually to Egypt could become very difficult politically if Christians are perceived as persecuted in Egypt.
Posted by: traeh at August 8, 2007 12:56 AM
Jauhara Al-Kafirah/
The pain of that Burmese Christian made him (her?) more Christ like. He, or she, shared some small part of the suffering of Christ on the Cross and came closer than many of us to His compassion thereby. That is the truth of Christ and of all those of us who give ourselves willingly to Christ. Not only are all our joys of God but all our sufferings are of God also for we suffer only in as much as Christ suffered on the Rood.
The figure of ten-thousand new Christians everyday in an amalgam of the figures given out by the Russian Orthodox, the Greek Orthodox, the Roman Catholics and the Anglicans and is probably, world-wide, broadly correct. The figures are not necessarily applicable to China alone, however.
Jauhara Al-Kafirah, my brother in Christ, welcome. Know that you are loved and prayed for by many here. May God hold you in the Palm of His Hand and Bless you and keep you faithful to the Christ through all your days and through all of your travails and joys.
Posted by: OliverPCamford at August 8, 2007 1:10 AM
traeh/
It's very hard to know, for the two dominant facets of the Mubarrak regime have been, so far, duplicity and corruption. Exactly how much is the, broadly francophile, legal regime of Egypt still independent of government? Exactly how independemt of the influence of the Muslim Brotherhood are the organs of the state? Where, exactly, does Mubarrak stand on the issues of personal freedom that bedevil Egypt today? How Kemalist is the Army?
Why should the free countries of this world even have to ask those questions about Egypt.
Whither Egypt? Well, there's an age old question!
You're probably correct but the fact remains that we who are Christians in the Free West already know that our brothers in Christ, the Coptic Church, are having a very hard time in Egypt today and that, for us, answers so many of the questions.
Posted by: OliverPCamford at August 8, 2007 2:04 AM
But! but!but! there is no COMPULSION in Islam. If it was not so serious it would be funny.What it is is pathetic and yet another signal that the PC,leftwing,'Yuman Rites' spouting,Guardianista Moonbats and Islamic apologists will overlook completely. ROP dont make me laugh, more like RIP for democracy and civilisation.
Posted by: Realist at August 8, 2007 2:22 AM
OT:
Let's see how long it will take you to pick up the news (now about 5 hours old) that Geert Wilders wants to ban the Koran, and treat it in a similar fashion as Mein Kampf.
at August 8, 2007 4:24 AM
So the shehada should be set to background music of "Hotel California" eh..
Posted by: payingattention at August 8, 2007 4:54 AM
Interesting post, Hartveld. It is surprising that such calls to violence as mentioned in the Koran are allowed. Some apologist will say that the Bible has similar calls to violence but I agree with the observation that the Biblical calls were recorded as historical events not enduring instructions.
Posted by: payingattention at August 8, 2007 4:57 AM
"Jauhara Al-Kafirah, my brother in Christ, welcome. Know that you are loved and prayed for by many here. May God hold you in the Palm of His Hand and Bless you and keep you faithful to the Christ through all your days and through all of your travails and joys."
Posted by: OliverPCamford August 8, 2007 1:10 AM
Thanks Mr. Camford....Jauhara is actually my internet nom de plume, but it is the Arabic translation of my name...which is a lady's name with the feminine form of The Infidel attached as a last name. The fun thing about having an easily translatable name is what it sounds like in different languages. Bijou in French, Hooseki in Japanese, Joya in Spanish, Gioella in Italian...but...Dragontsenniy kamen' in Russian. Not a pretty sight that one..
Posted by: Jauhara Al-Kafirah at August 8, 2007 8:28 AM
Paleyo inquired:
"I am totally confused by the JW/DW take on this:
'Two months after the court ruling, the plaintiffs' appeal was accepted. The Supreme Administrative Court instructed the Interior Ministry to permit the plaintiffs to have their identity cards again denote them as Christians, and called for a new law banning "playing" with religions. Further ruling in the case was postponed until September 2007.'"
Perhaps I can offer an explanation. This has to do with the separation of powers between mosque and state in an islamic state. The person has clearly become a Christian and secular authorities have ruled this should be marked on apostate's identity card. The fatwah for his murder must come from the mosque, from a sheik, a respected authority of islam! The punishment for conversion is not a state matter. Islamic due process requires his punishment according to islam! Not to worry, the Christian's punishment is forthcoming!
Posted by: David England at August 8, 2007 10:31 AM
How many billions of $$$ do we give these jackasses?
Posted by: Alarmed Pig Farmer at August 8, 2007 11:17 AM
Jauhara Al-Kafirah -
Although I am no longer religious, I second OliverPCamford's comments about your Burmese friend for 2 reasons that I can think of off-hand.
1. The modern-day meaning of martyr really applies to Christian suffering at the hands of Rome, including being placed in the 'Lions Den' in the Colliseum. It just does NOT apply to Homicide Bombers, and I know we're all sick of the meaning being twisted in such a way.
2. Jesus preached repeatedly about the importance of not being the one who commits the violence, even if one has to be a recipient. 'Turn the other cheek', 'let your life be a light', the list is too long to mention.
I think it's important to recognize your journey to Christianity and welcome you to that camp, even if I'm not officially on the team.
Posted by: Miss_Anthrope at August 8, 2007 11:35 AM
That western concept of separation of church and state is just an example of how decadent we are.
Posted by: tanstaafl at August 8, 2007 1:18 PM
"I think it's important to recognize your journey to Christianity and welcome you to that camp, even if I'm not officially on the team."
Posted by: Miss_Anthrope August 8, 2007 11:35 AM
It is interesting that you don't think you're on the team. I would consider you a full team member, since we both bleed red. I agree with your assessment about the persecutions that happened in the name of Christ.
In a similar vein, if you want to really understand why the Christians by and large ignore the suffering church, you just have to go into any Sunday School and see how Jesus is portrayed to youngsters. He is little more than a cartoonish super hero. A flat cutout on a board.
I only became a Christian as a result of this young man's testimony. No one gives testimonies anymore, they just hand out stickers and googaws to the kids without showing the love of Christ or the reality of Christ in their lives.
From that moment, I not only became a Christian, but my heart has ached for those who suffer for their faith. This is the power of love and forgiveness over coercion and persecution. It is why ultimately I am optimistic about the inroads of Christianity back into its birthplace.
How many thousands of Iranians, Arabs and Turkish converts would agree!
So even if you don't call yourself a Christian, your concern and care for those who are persecuted and suffering speaks more loudly than those silent Christians who don't want to be bothered with facts and who are colluding with the enemies of humanity....er, I mean being all ecumenical and stuff.
Posted by: Jauhara Al-Kafirah at August 8, 2007 1:29 PM
Rev 17:14 These shall make war with the Lamb,(Jesus) and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him [are] called, and chosen, and faithful.
Yes, every once in a while I open the bible, good does overcome evil in the end, keep the faith.
To register on one's Identity Card one's religious affiliation sound like the mark of the beast.
Not trying to get to religious here, but this Islam thing is a war against every Christian, Jew, Hindu, and any one else who does not bow to
"Allah".
at August 8, 2007 4:20 PM
As much as I hate to continue playing devil's advocate, during my time in Cairo I did see a lot of effort directed at trying to a) remove sharia as the basis of the Constitution, and b) change the law mandating the presence of one's religion on one's identity card. You might remember that recently the Egyptian Baha'i won a court ruling allowing them to list their religion as Baha'i, and although it was later overturned, the fight continues. Almost all of Egypt's top artists, actors, writers, and so on are in favor of secular government, and the battle is by no means over. I won't count Egypt for lost just yet.
Posted by: GetBornAgain at August 8, 2007 5:05 PM
How many billions of $$$ do we give these jackasses?
Posted by: Alarmed Pig Farmer [TypeKey Profile Page] at August 8, 2007 11:17 AM
>> If we don't get off our collective a**es, it's gonna be another $20b, courtesy of the dhimmis in charge of the State Department and White House.
I've already made my point to my Congressman and both Senators - AGAINST THIS MADNESS.
Replies from them? Yeah, I thought so..
Folks, it won't be very long until you and I will have a national ID card, with a special block in bold type: RELIGION: INFIDEL
It's time to stop this madness. NOW!
Posted by: boneshack at August 8, 2007 6:44 PM
We're missing the point here: the Egyptian court is right: if it was easy to escape from the tyranny of islam, millions would do it, and their control, based on sharia and islamic dominance, would indeed crumble.
I'd be worried too, if my power depended on keeping everyone under control under one ideology. Very worried...
Posted by: Lili at August 8, 2007 7:34 PM
People convert (revert) for many reasons. Many people have converted to Islam due to youth and inexperience, job, housing, social standing and many other factors. Many have believed the dribble that all religions are basically the same. How bad could Islam be, after all?
Theodore of Mytilene, d. 1784, asked an Ottoman judge for justice because he was promised payment in gold, but was given lead instead. The judge denounces this and askes for the particulars of the case. Theodore replies that he was promised the glories of heaven with Islam, but he had been misled by the devil and only recieved agony and pain. Needless to say he is executed. There are hundreds of stories similar to this—of people, remembering the joy of life before they became Muslim, deciding death is better than remaining Muslim.
Sadly, even if the Egyptian courts allows Muslim converts to Christianity to change their ID cards to read "Christian", some well-meaning practitioner of the Religion of Peace will likely decide to follow Muhammed's example...
at August 10, 2007 2:56 PM
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