Nice first step.

Id like to see Europe defend its Judeo/Christian heritige

Posted by: Elric66 at August 21, 2007 8:50 AM

Perhaps with Italy's help he will live to see his child born.

Posted by: ImNoDhimmi at August 21, 2007 9:25 AM

Assalamau Laikum Elric66,

Have you forgeotten to put an extra 6 on your handle....I say that because you often play devil's advocate.

Rather than protecting Mohammed....let other peoples see him on TV ...to try & justify why he converted...and what he was hoping to achieve.

Let thereafter be a debate about Jesus ....Jesus the christian and Jesus the muslim...then he will find that in actual fact there is much commonality between the religions ....and realise that he wasted his time...and may as well convert back.

This must all be done transparently ofcourse to make it feasable.

Mary is the only woman mentioned in the Koran by name....she is a role model for all womens to follow. She is Marium...mother of Prophet Jesus (Isa) PBUh.... not Jesus.... son of God.

He brought the Kitab... the Injeel for mankind....and later MUHD PBUH the Koran Sharif to complete knowledge for mankind...this is the miracle that Islam left for you & me.

Marium gave birth to Jesus PBUh on her own under a palm tree in the desert....and then took him back to the town. There she was asked about the "stain" to her family, her tainted honour and the "mistake" she was carrying. Yet others wanted to stone her ....when she was asked to talk about her defence....she said Jesus PBUh will answer.

And answer he did...as a baby he spoke...."I am a messenger....sent down by Allah SWT for the mercy of man"....and I shall leave the legacy of the injeel.

He alluded to the greatest and final prophet coming a tad later....how we have all been so blessed is beyond me....Allah SWT is SO merciful.

Ofcourse within all this good news ...the kaffur puts the boot in with his own version ...the bible.

That he should be crucified and rise again after 3 days ...and be an only son...ridiculious. That's taking things to be far fetched....better that he just spoke as a baby.

Does Mohammed Hegazi even understand how he has let himself and Allah SWT down....I don't want to see him hunted or any such thing...he must live to see the folly of his ways...give him time to repent to allah SWT and then become a better slave of Allah SWT.

Posted by: Naseem at August 21, 2007 9:43 AM

ROBERT: "This is what all Western states should be doing."

...and it shouldn't be seen under the guise of parochialism. Hagazi's new Christian identity is entirely ancillary to the larger issue, which is his right to believe in the dictates of his own conscience.

Posted by: Cornelius at August 21, 2007 9:47 AM

The best thing would be to get this young Christian man and his family out of Eygpt, bring them to Italy for the sake of his safety. God Bless and congratuations to Mr. Hegazi on his wise decision to come to faith in the Lord Jesus Christ.

Posted by: bigcatgirl13106 at August 21, 2007 9:56 AM

While the Koran speaks about Jesus and Mary, it does this based on what would be considered gnostic gospels, books that the Christian faith and Church rightly rejected because they were NEVER inspired by the Holy Spirit.

One thing that the Bible can be credited with that the Koran cannot, is that there is in the Bible, two books, and for the Catholic Bibles, up to three books that are named after women, ( Ruth, Esther, in the Catholic Bible, Judith ). At least the Bible is FAITHFUL to prohecy which says Jesus was born in Bethleham in Judah in the animal stable, not under some tree. Plus Jesus as a baby never talks like an adult because he was a new baby at the time.

Mr. Hegazi NEVER let God down, as a matter of fact, this should be a home coming to the faith of his ancestors. Welcome home brother.

Posted by: bigcatgirl13106 at August 21, 2007 10:09 AM

Naseem,

You write that there is "much commonality between the religions ....and realise that he wasted his time...and may as well convert back", then go on to write exactly why these two religions have no commonality whatsoever.

Christians, whose view of Jesus is based upon the eye-witness accounts (and as close to eye-witness as you can get) of the gospel writers know Jesus as the Son of God.

Muslims, whose view of "Isa" is based upon Mohammad's five-century removed view where he heard snippets of stories regarding Jesus and Christianity, and got names and places completely wrong, know "Isa" exactly as Mohammad wanted them to know "Isa", not as the historically correct (or even Christianity-correct) Jesus.

Mohammad wanted the Christians to convert to Islam, and made up a story that he thought would make the Christians happy ("Isa didn't die on the cross! Allah tricked everyone! Isn't that great?"). But since Mohammad never understood Christianity, but only heard a few stories, he totally misunderstood the meaning of Christ's death on the cross.

If anything, Hegazi should at least be praised for following his convictions, at most exalted for seeing the light from the darkness.

Posted by: kutabeach at August 21, 2007 10:12 AM

Naseem,

I say the West treats Muslims in the West like Muslims treat non Muslims in Muslim lands. Would that be ok with you? Do you have the courage to answer that simple question?

Posted by: Elric66 at August 21, 2007 10:14 AM

Write-up on the fact that more Muslims are coming to faith in Christ based on having dreams of them encountering the Lord.

http://www.breakingchristiannews.com/articles/display_art.html?ID=4335

Posted by: bigcatgirl13106 at August 21, 2007 10:15 AM

Time to fire up the Underground Railroad again; this time rescuing Christian converts from their islamic nations.

Posted by: eve_anne_gelical at August 21, 2007 10:18 AM

kutabeach,

"Christians, whose view of Jesus is based upon the eye-witness accounts (and as close to eye-witness as you can get) of the gospel writers know Jesus as the Son of God."

...And not just true eye-witness accounts, but also prophecy that comes from the Hebrew scriptures or what we call the Old Testement.

Posted by: bigcatgirl13106 at August 21, 2007 10:18 AM

This is thanks to a handful of people -- to Oriana Fallaci, and more recently, to the writings and appearances on the RAI of the fearless Magdi Allam, born and raised in Egypt by parents who called themselves Muslims, were quietly pious, sent him to Christian schools, and then he left Egypt for Italy, where he received his higher -- in all senses -- education, in and out of univeristy, married an Italian girl, and now is a vice-director, I believe, of the Corriere della Sera, and appears frequently on the RAI (the state-owned television, of which there are three variants, Rai Uno, Rai Due, Rai Tre). Magdi Allam has written several important books.

Two are directly about Islam. The first is "Vincere La Paura" (Conquering Fear), a book which includes a "Lettera aperta a Oriana Fallaci"(in which Allam takes issue with her sweeping dismissal of Islam -- I think he does so wrongly) and a more convincing "Lettera aperta a Tariq Ramadan" -- whom Magdi Allam, who knows Ramadan, and from what he comes, perfectly, dismembers before your very eyes.

The second, shorter book is "Kamikaze Made in Europe (Riuscira l'Occidente a Sconfiggere i Terroristi Islamici?)" (Will the West Manage to Defeat Islamic Terrorists?).

Most recently, Magdi Allam published"Viva Israele" --"Long Live Israel" -- a paean of well-deserved praise, and expression of affection, one which comes naturally to the apostates or near-apostates of Islam, for it is they who know best how terribly Israel has been maligned, and they who know best the dangers it has passed, and the dangers it permanently faces. They know so far better than any Infidel supporters of Israel possibly could.

All of Magdi Allam's books should be translated, at once, by professionals, into two dozen major languages. If the C.I.A. had its wits about it, it would pay for the publication itself, as during the Cold War it set up publishing houses --"Editions de la Seine" and so on -- to publish Russian-emigre literature, then handed out to Soviet tourists, who would read those books on the spot, or smuggle them back into the Soviet Union. What dimwits are running things now? Or is it that the Saudi agents, willing or unwitting, are preventing even the most modest efforts at a counter-Jihad of spreading simply the intelligent views of those who know Islam best?

And it is also due to others, especially to the Pope, when as Cardinal Ratzinger he exchanged letters with the learned Massimo Pera (a Senator -- in Italy, not quite the same thing as here, being a non-elected post, but still a very influential one). Those exchanges, on the subject of Islam and the West, and the West's inability to recognize the nature of Islam, and the danger it poses, permanently, to the institutions, political and legal, and to the very civilization of the West, are set out in a book of a handy size similar to that of Magdi Allam's three books noted above: "Senza Radici." It has been put into English, as part of the translating-the-Pope effort, and well worth finding and reading.

Italy will be, because of such people, the least likely to succumb of European states. After all, the Italians are surrounded by two-thirds of the entire production of Western art, and can only with great difficulty avoid appreciating the legacy of the West. They have retained a historic memory of the Ottomans, or the general Islamic threat: "Mamma, li Turchi!" is a phrase that has entered the language as a way to express sudden fear of something -- Muslim raiders, say, on the coast ("Turks" means not only "Turks" but also all the various Muslims who raided up and down the Italian coasts, pillaging, looting, killing men, seizing women). And there is another verbal phrase in Italian -- "fare salamalecchi" --"to perform salaam-aleikums" -- that means to "bow and scrape" with the emphasis on "oily bowing and scraping" in order to curry favor, a phrase obviously constructed from close observation of the observable behavior of Muslims, and not unlike the oleaginous and wily ways of those who, in the British phrase, "are either at your feet or at your throat."

This historical memory, of course, is not present in these United States. And what we get are ignorant but seemingly hard-headed (in truth, because of their ignorance, they are sentimentalists) "military analysts" at think-tank sinecures, solemnly pontificating about Iraq without a clue as to what Islam is, what its texts, tenets, attitudes, atmospherics are, what its goals, based on those immutable texts, are, and certainly, being remarkably limited people, have no conception beyond the militay of the means by which those goals can be achieved, and for which Iraq is of passing significance, for Islam has in the past few decades leapfrogged over the Mediterranean, and is now present all over the historic heart of the West, that is the countries of Western Europe. And those countries need to be awakened, and bringiong "freedom" to "ordinary moms and dads" in Iraq and then to the greater Middle East will have no effect, none, even were it to be achieved (and achievement is, because of Islam, impossible).

The sentimentalists masquerading as tough-minded realists, whether they are loyalists clinging to the idea of "winning" in Tarbaby Iraq, or "critics of the Administration" who ponderously tell us (think of the comical Cordesman, who keeps telling us we have "ethically and morally" a duty to rescue millions of "Iraqis" -- what utter nonsense) that the war cannot be "won" but never take issue with the Administration's definition of "winning" -- should be ignored. Stick with Oriana Fallaci. Stick with Magdi Allam. Stick with Massimo Pera and Pope Benedict. Something is going right in Italy -- and that is despite that eurocratic Prodi, who wants to "open a dialogue" with Hamas.

Learn from Italy.

Posted by: Hugh at August 21, 2007 10:21 AM

Good first step, but there are many former Muslims who have converted to Christianity in the Palestinian-controlled territories, and I am sure in other neighboring countries, that are under constant threat.

Would be nice if the US, in addition to force a Palestinian state down everyone's throat, would also take an interest in the rights of that state's citizens.

But, as the first commenter noted, before the West can really make a difference here, it must first start to actively defend its own Judeo-Christian heritage from the Muslim hordes taking over there.

Posted by: Ryan Jones at August 21, 2007 10:58 AM

Assalamau Laikum Catgirl,

You have a slight edge of eywitnesses in christianity....Marium went to the desert where she had Jesus, PBUh...her only witness was Allah SWT...but Jesus PBUh...did speak as a child....isn't that a miracle to be applauded?

Posted by: Naseem at August 21, 2007 11:04 AM

There is a great article posted originally by Sandro Magister at chiesa website and now available at www.CatholicCitizens.org. The article tells the story of the 800 Italians who were martyred by the Ottoman pasha, Ahmed, in 1480 at the town of Otranto refusing to surrender their city and live as dhimmis or renounce their faith. The city's two week resistance gave the king of Naples time to approach and block the the Ottomans from their original plans of taking the entire region of Puglia and marching north to Rome.

Posted by: bevc at August 21, 2007 11:10 AM

Yep. Naseem is too much a coward to answer my simple question.

Posted by: Elric66 at August 21, 2007 11:15 AM

Assalamau Laikum Elric66,

How peoples are treated where-ever is not in your hands or mine....every grain of food, every breath of oxygen...every leaf that moves on a tree, every apple that grows on a tree.....every star that is born....every one that is sucked by a blackhole.....

all is governed by the supreme will of Allah SWT.....nothing is down to the kaffur or muslim.

Inshallah....may you see this light soon too...

it is why conversions like these are so pointless...

Posted by: Naseem at August 21, 2007 11:31 AM

Naseem-

And why does the Koran have 6,666 verses?

Hmmmm???????

(One 6 too many?)

Posted by: profitsbeard at August 21, 2007 11:42 AM

every one that is sucked by a blackhole.....

all is governed by the supreme will of Allah SWT

Finally, Nasseem is telling the truth.

Posted by: hassan_bin_sobar at August 21, 2007 11:43 AM

Couldnt answer the simple question Naseem?

Lets try this. Do you think its right that Muslims in the West have much more rights than non Muslims in the Muslim lands? And can you explain why that is?

Posted by: Elric66 at August 21, 2007 12:18 PM

Assalamau Laikum Elric66,

You ask "Do you think its right that Muslims in the West have much more rights than non Muslims in the Muslim lands?" And can you explain why that is?

Well Elric, all rights are governed by Allah SWT.
I will concede that the muslim in the West is looked upon with particular favour by Allah SWT.

Why is this? Well, The West is out of control and corrupted by materialistic influences and bodily senses. Kaffur live for what their eye sees ...not what is in the mind...which is guided by the Koran.

Thus the muslim has a particular duty to gently persuade peoples into the fold...this should be done through persuasion and great care ...as the kaffur can easily misunderstand.

It is NOT to conquer...it is to make the kaffur see the light that muslims see....this is to make up the glue to which we will all bind to one day....we will all be wuslims...

there can be no greater achievement to mankind....this is Allah's gift and blessing to you all. ....peace

Posted by: Naseem at August 21, 2007 12:29 PM

Naseem,

Again where Mary had Jesus, Bethleham, in the cave and manger was faithful to the prophecy of where Jesus would be born. There was NO trip to the desert for Mary. Also Joseph and the shepards were the witnesses.

Posted by: bigcatgirl13106 at August 21, 2007 12:50 PM

Nevermind Naseem, cant expect a straight answer from you.

Posted by: Elric66 at August 21, 2007 12:53 PM

Hugh,

"Italy will be, because of such people, the least likely to succumb of European states. After all, the Italians are surrounded by two-thirds of the entire production of Western art, and can only with great difficulty avoid appreciating the legacy of the West. They have retained a historic memory of the Ottomans, or the general Islamic threat: "Mamma, li Turchi!" is a phrase that has entered the language as a way to express sudden fear of something -- Muslim raiders, say, on the coast ("Turks" means not only "Turks" but also all the various Muslims who raided up and down the Italian coasts, pillaging, looting, killing men, seizing women). And there is another verbal phrase in Italian -- "fare salamalecchi" --"to perform salaam-aleikums" -- that means to "bow and scrape" with the emphasis on "oily bowing and scraping" in order to curry favor, a phrase obviously constructed from close observation of the observable behavior of Muslims, and not unlike the oleaginous and wily ways of those who, in the British phrase, "are either at your feet or at your throat."

Hugh, it would not suprise me if the reason why on the island of Sicilly, from a historic perspective, why it was the original home of what would become the mafia is because of the island's history with being raided by Arab Muslims in the middle ages. It would not be suprising if it went back to the days of when it was attacked by the Arab Muslim raiders.

Posted by: bigcatgirl13106 at August 21, 2007 12:58 PM

Yeah, the battle of blood rock(Siege of Malta) is an amazing true story, everyone should read about it on Wikipedia or elsewhere if you want a better idea of the Mediterranean resistance to Muslims. I wouldn't mind reading a nice reflection on the siege from the ever enthralling Hugh.

Posted by: BlowHammed at August 21, 2007 1:30 PM

Why is this? Well, The West is out of control and corrupted by materialistic influences and bodily senses. Kaffur live for what their eye sees ...not what is in the mind...which is guided by the Koran... ala Naseem

If Mohamedans lived more "with their eyes" to see the evil they spawned in the world, they wouldn't cast such an envious look our way. What is "in the mind" is reason, but Mohamedans have shown little capacity for it, believing as they do in "voices in the desert" or dreams instead of eye witness accounts and real facts. Their much maligned "materialism" of the West is all those envious Mohamedan eyes can see, because they are blind to reason. They crawl all over Italy selling trinkets and maligning the joy of life Italians display, so opposite the "morally correct" misery of Pakistan, or any of the Islamic-utopian 'stans. The West is great because of its ability to reason, of which material wealth is merely a byproduct, but Mohamedans cannot understand any of this, so they envy us. For them, yes, it is "out of control", because it is not in their control.

Posted by: Battle_of_Tours at August 21, 2007 1:31 PM

Latest Message to United States citizen jihad watchers:

We are in the middle of the eighth day of posting this request at Jihad Watch, and we are up to 51 volunteers in 27 states.

I'm looking for at least two people in every state of the Union who would be willing to purchase a copy of Robert Spencer's Religion of Peace? Why Christianity Is and Islam Isn't and mail it to one of the senators in your state. I'm organizing an effort to get the book simultaneously to all 100 senators, in order to send a strong message.
If we get more than two people per state, books can also be sent to the House of Representatives.

If you’d like to be involved, please write to me at traehnam@yahoo.com under the subject heading “Senate,” and tell me the state your senator represents, an email address where I can reach you, and a nickname. No need for your real name. And I will never share your email address with anyone, not even with other volunteers for this project.

And visit www.jihadawareness.blogspot.com to get more info on this project and to leave comments other volunteers can read. You can also see there the growing list of participants in this project, and the states their senators represent. I’ll try to update the list at least once a day. I've also designed a graphic that might amuse. Scroll down when you get to the site.

Once we have at least two people from every state, we can agree on a mailing date and then each of us can mail a copy of the book on that date.

Right before each of us mails the book, we can issue a press release to various media outlets in every state, and in that way announce and explain the mailing. And perhaps we can come up with some other ways of maximizing the effectiveness of this project and gaining as much positive attention as possible.

One of the project's volunteers suggested contacting Rep. Sue Myrick, who started the anti-Jihad caucus in Congress. I'll try to coordinate this project with Rep. Myrick to maximize its effectiveness. I've also been calling various congressional offices to get advice on how best to go about this. And I'll soon contact Regnery, Robert Spencer's publisher, to ask their advice and to see if we can coordinate with them in some way.

Posted by: traeh at August 21, 2007 2:37 PM

Yeah, the battle of blood rock(Siege of Malta) is an amazing true story, everyone should read about it on Wikipedia or elsewhere if you want a better idea of the Mediterranean resistance to Muslims. I wouldn't mind reading a nice reflection on the siege from the ever enthralling Hugh.

Now that is another battle that made 11th September such a famous day and one which irked Bin Laden, for it was on 11th September 1565 when the Knights of St John finally defeated the Turks - and we only have to go forward 118 years to yet another famous September 11th - this time at Vienna.

Posted by: Spirit Of 1683 at August 21, 2007 4:30 PM

One of the things that helped me to "cross-over" and open my eyes as to what Islam is about was the fact that Islam used the word Messiah to describe Jesus.

If you don't believe he was the Son of God, how is he a Messiah?

If you don't believe his life was sacrificed for our sins, how is he a Messiah?

If you don't believe that his teachings about turning the other cheek, removing the plank from your own eye, rendering onto Caesar, love your neighbor as yourself, etc. are true, how is he a Messiah?

Referring to the Isa as a messiah is the clearest example of a fundamental lack of morality and spirituality in the Koran. Very shallow thinking---use the title without any moral or spiritual meaning. This is suggestive of plagiarism by a clueless plagiarist.

To me, it read like a purposeful smokescreen---a deliberate attempt to mislead. My Jihadwatch journey was made complete after reading about Isa in the Koran.

Even in the most PC-induced light where you bend over backwards to defend Islam, it illustrates a lack of comprehension as to what Christianity is all about--a lack of depth, maturity, insight, and beauty.

Posted by: JSobieski at August 21, 2007 4:32 PM

"Rather than protecting Mohammed....let other peoples see him on TV ...to try & justify why he converted...and what he was hoping to achieve." -- from above

How perfectly strange, this suggestion. How perfectly alien to civilized sensibilities, to Western notions of freedom of conscience. The poster is demanding that Mohammed Hegazi essentially be put on trial in the West to defend, what was for him, a matter of personal faith. Of all gall, this suggestion is jaw-droppingly amazing for its utter (you should only forgive the phrase) brazen chutzpah!

No. Mr. Hegazi need not defend his decision any more than those going the other direction, passing from free choice to the shackles of imposed conformist thinking, need defend their choice to the world. Indeed, on the basis of history, both recent of ancient, there is every reason to question the disposition and motives of those embracing Islam.

I am glad that the Italian government sees the protection of Mr. Hegazi as a priority. I am glad both for Mr. Hegazi as well as for Italy itself. It's a wonderful place, a land of genius and culture. As has been pointed out in other postings here, the Italian decisions shows a recognition of the threat Islam, even watered-down Islam, poses to freedom of conscience.

In due time, Mr. Hegazi may choose to explain to the public his decision. But it will be his choice. Because in the West there is truly no compulsion in religion.

Posted by: Chatillon at August 21, 2007 4:47 PM

Where is the REST of the EU??!! They're always so quick to band together and enact 'anti-racism" laws.. and pro-moslem edicts..

And now they leave Italy to her own devices when they vow to protect a Christian revert from pigslam?

Posted by: Allahfanculo at August 21, 2007 5:16 PM

Hi Naseem,

You wrote: "Let thereafter be a debate about Jesus ....Jesus the christian and Jesus the muslim"

No Problem! The are thousands of Christian scholars who would love to have this debate. Then how about a debate on Jesus compared to Muhammed. Robert Spencer has already made that challenge but no Muslim is willing to face him.

I'm sure that Pope Benedict would be happy to arrange this type of debate in Europe but when he made correct points about Muhammed's character, Muslims responded with riots and murder. That is not a debate. As you correctly wrote: "This must all be done transparently of course to make it feasable." A real debate is when each side makes its points freely without threats of violence.

You state correctly that "Mary is the only woman mentioned in the Koran by name....she is a role model for all women to follow."

In this Sura it even says that the virgin concieved him "with a word from above" (kalimat benhuu). If someone is concieved by the very word of God, how can he not be called God's Son?

You wrote" "He brought the Kitab... the Injeel for mankind...."

I agree. So why is that same Injeel (Arabic for Gospel) illegal to possess in Saudi Arabia and forbidden for Muslims to read in Pakistan? If you as a Muslim recognize the Injeel, thn I challenge you to read it. You are literate in English but I would be willing to send you the Gospel in Urdu if you're willing to read it.

Unlike the Gospel, the Quran makes some glaring errors about Jesus and Mary. Muhammed mistaked Maryam the mother of Jesus for Maryam the sister of Aaron (Harun) although they lived well over a thousand years apart.

As for your statement: "That he should be crucified and rise again after 3 days ...and be an only son...ridiculious. That's taking things to be far fetched...."

This is the key area of difference. That Jesus, though without sin, was willing to suffer for us is the greatest example of God's love. Though Muslims call Allah "merciful and compassionate" (al-Rahim wa Al-Rahman) Islam has no example at all to show any Divine compassion. To a Christian, the primary attribute of God is perfect Love. Unlike the Allah of the Quran, He does not merely demand submission, although we offer our submission, not out of fear, but out of love for God who first loved us.

Naseem, your faith is empty of true compassion because your faith (din) does not show you a God who can understand your pain and suffering. Jesus Christ by going freely to his death, understands and has experienced what human suffering and death is. But as God he also overcame death and rose again to eternal life.

Although, you Muslims claim to believe in a final ressurection, what assurance to you have? As a Christian, I know that Jesus Christ has already defeated death and sin, so my own ressurection is assured.

Dear Naseem, although the regular bloggers at this site may tease you, I am confident that I'm not alone in being happy that you are here. At least you are one Muslim who is seeing the other side. Now I challenge you to break out of blindness. Jesus is alive and he loves you. He offers you true life and the light that can free you from the darkness of Islam just as Jesus freed our dear brother Mohammed Hegazi.

May God bless you Naseem.

Posted by: Provoslavni at August 21, 2007 6:32 PM

I am surprised by how firm Intini sounds, but I do applaud this stand. The logical conclusion of it will be that Italy will have to receive many more Christians fleeing lethal persecution, but maybe now is the time to accept the reality of the division between Islam and Europe, and open doors to people like the Hegazis. Gordon “Ghazi” Brown will not want Britain to do this, as he considers Muslims to be “our modern heroes: standing for the highest ideals, bearing burdens, and bringing hope to us all in Britain“, and he will not welcome anyone who might rain a little truth on his parade. So, for now I just have to praise Italy for setting such a good example. sono fiero di voi l'Italia !

Provoslavni,
i am not a believer, and i do try to ignore Naseem, but i thought that your reply to him was a fine piece of writing. thank you.

Posted by: M Al-Content at August 21, 2007 7:12 PM

Chatillon - hear hear!

And - Provoslavni - like M Al-content, I approve of your wonderful reply to Naseem. Much more charitable than my own initial reaction when I read her posting!

Actually, wouldn't it be great if brave Mr Hegazi (the LORD YHWH bless and keep him, the LORD make His face to shine upon him and be gracious to him, the LORD lift up the light of his countenance upon him and give him peace!) and his equally courageous wife [also a convert], along with the many many other contemporary defectors from Islam, were given prime-time TV space - on Italian TV, on French, German, Spanish, Russian, English, wherever - to tell their stories at length in their own way, to sympathetic interviewers?

Those who have become Christian (how about Mr Abdul Rahman from Afghanistan; Mr Daniel Shayesteh [ex-jihadist] and his beautiful wife Mary and their three daughters, originally from Iran?; Mr Walid Shoebat, ex-Palestinian revolutionary; Mr Lamin Sanneh, former imam, from West Africa, author of 'Translating the [Gospel] Message'); together with those who like Ayaan Hirsi Ali or Ali Sina or Wafa Sultan, have chosen the classic Enlightenment path. Kick the series off with a broadcast of the whole of Pope Benedict's Regenburg discourse on Faith and Reason, and an excerpt from his encyclical on Charity. Include readings from the testimony of Muslim-background converts of the past - they exist - people like Bilquis Sheikh of Pakistan, recently deceased in America, author of "I Dared to Call Him Father".

Put all the apostates on stage and let them go for it; there are enough of them, and their stories are dramatic enough, to create a gripping TV serial that would run for weeks. Call it...Exodus. That's what Mr Shayesteh called his life story/ testimony - 'Exodus from Darkness'.

I have to add: my friends - whoever 'Naseem' the person is, today we saw and heard the thing that devours her soul - the demon/ meme that is the System of Islam, composed of violence, rage, lust for domination and total contempt for human life, truth and love - spitting venom at us, hoping to cow us by sheer aggression and by the magnitude of its lies.

Behold the Dementor. I stress: the PERSON Naseem is one thing; that which enslaves her mind is something else again. You, Provoslavni have spoken to Naseem. I will present our refusal of that Other.

Let us fill our minds with, for example: Chagall's Bridegroom and the Bride; Rembrandt's Jewish Wedding; or Raphael's Assumption of the Virgin; or St Francis of Assisi's Canticle of the Sun; or Preisner's ravishing setting of 1 Corinthians 13 that concludes Kieslowski's "Blue"; or Monteverdi's glorious Vespers of 1610; or the Liturgy of St John Chrysostom.

And as we do: let us contemplate St Luke's elegant and eloquent account of the conception of Jesus, as faithfully written and told by generations of Christians - Greek, Latin, Coptic, Aramaic, Ethiopian, Gothic, Armenian, Irish, Aramaic and Syrian and Persian and Mar Thoma in South India - from the 1st century to the 6th century, long before the lies of Mohammed were concocted to wither the souls of men. Perhaps Naseem might even dare to read on, here, and taste a small portion of the Christian gospel, that gospel which dhimmis are forbidden to recite in the hearing of any Muslim.

First, however, a reminder that Luke's Gospel begins with an objectively verifiable historical reference: "in the days of Herod, the King of Judaea", and contains another such in its second chapter, "a decree from Caesar Augustus"; and that its third chapter begins likewise, "in the fifteenth year of the reign of Tiberias Caesar, Pontius Pilate being governor of Judaea, and Herod being tetrach of Galilee, and his brother Philip tetrarch of Ituraea, and of the region of Trachonitis, and Lysanias the tetrarch of Abilene, Annas and Caiaphas being the high priests...". Whereas Mohammed appears either not to know or not to care about when or where any of the events in the life of 'isa' or 'mariam' took place.

Gospel of Luke, Chapter 1, verses 26-55: "And in the sixth month [of Mary's cousin Elizabeth's pregnancy with John the Baptist], the angel Gabriel was sent from God unto a city of Galilee [in the historic land of Israel], named Nazareth. To a virgin espoused to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David [i.e. of the Tribe of Judah, a Jew] and the virgin's name was Mary.

"And the angel came in unto her and said, 'Hail, thou that art highly favoured. The Lord is with thee. Blessed art thou among women". And when she saw him, she was troubled at his saying, and cast in her mind what manner of salutation this should be.

And the angel said unto her, 'Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favour with God. And behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS [i.e. Joshua - YHWH SAVES]. He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest; and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David; and he shall reign over the house of Jacob forever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end."

Then said Mary unto the angel, "How shall this be, seeing that I know not a man?' And the angel answered and said to her, "The Holy Spirit [ruach adonai] shall come upon thee, and the power of the Most High shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee, shall be called the Son of God. And behold, thy cousin Elizabeth, she hath also conceived a son in her old age; and this is the sixth month with her who was called barren. For with God nothing shall be impossible". And Mary said: 'Behold the handmaid of the Lord; be it unto me according to thy word. And the angel departed from her.

And Mary arose in those days and went into the hill country with haste, into a city of Judah; and entered into the house of Zacharias, and saluted Elizabeth. And it came to pass that when Elizabeth heard the salutation of Mary the babe leaped in her womb; and Elisabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit: And she spake out with a loud voice and said, "Blessed art thou among women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb. And whence is this to me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me? For, lo, as soon as the voice of thy salutation sounded in mine ears, the babe leaped in my womb for joy. And blessed is she that believed: for there shall be a performance of those things which were told her from the Lord".

And Mary said:

"My soul doth magnify the Lord/ and my spirit doth rejoice in God my saviour/ for he hath regarded the low estate of his handmaiden: for behold, from henceforth all generations shall call me blessed.
For he who is mighty hath done to me great things, and Holy is his Name. And his mercy is on them that fear them from generation to generation.

He [YHWH, God of Israel, who is NOT 'allah'] hath shewed strength with his arm; HE HATH SCATTERED THE PROUD IN THE IMAGINATION OF THEIR HEARTS. He hath put down the mighty from their seats, and exalted them of low degree. He hath filled the hungry with good things, and the rich he hath sent empty away.

He hath holpen his servant Israel, in remembrance of his mercy; As he spake to our fathers, to Abraham and to his seed for ever"
Luke 1: 26-55.

Now: even if one is a complete atheist and anti-supernaturalist one has to say that, viewed as literature, Luke's story is more rich and full, more dramatic, more human and humane, and more deeply rooted in place and time, than the fragmented and jejune travesty in the Quran. And that Luke's assumptions about people, and about God, are profoundly different from anything one finds in Islam. And that its language - e.g. 'the power of the most High shall overshadow you' [i.e. as the Cloud of the Glory 'overshadowed' the Tabernacle and the Temple] - is saturated with references to the Hebrew Scriptures ; indeed, Mary's Song echoes both the Song of Hannah (1 Samuel 2: 1-10) and Psalm 113. Conceive in thy womb - behind the Greek lies the Hebrew, in which maqom, 'womb/ place' is used not only of the bodily organ but also, at times, of the Holy of Holies in the Tabernacle and the Temple.

Do the Mohammedans know how foolish they look, not just to believers but to literary and historical scholars, when they try to tell Christians that Mohammed's cheap ripoff - hell, it's not just a ripoff, it's a parody, a travesty, a coldly calculated hostile rewrite - is the Original and that magnificent, subtle, coherent and complex texts like Luke's (or Matthew's, or John's) are the Copy!?

Likewise: do the Mohammedans know just what a ridiculous spectacle they make of themselves ( not just in the eyes of Jews and Christians, but in the eyes of secular scholars of history and archaeology, or indeed of any person who has any feel at all for good writing and how intertextual relationships work), when in their arrogance and folly they accuse the Jews of altering some supposed Islamic original, to create the Torah? For the plain, abundantly attested literary and historical truth is that things are the other way around, and that the author/s of the Quran did a hostile rewrite of the Torah stories.

Rape and prostitution - that's what the Mohammedans have done, figuratively speaking, to the sacred texts of the Jews and the Christians. Hindus, Buddhists, Sikhs, you're lucky - at least the Mohammedans haven't tried to steal your holy persons and your sacred texts and turn them upside down and twist them and strip them of meaning, in order to claim that they were 'really' teaching Islam!

Dementors, people. Dementors. Like Frank has pointed out several times - Islam was practising the tactics of 'spiritual violence', over a thousand years before Hitler. Let us stand our ground and refuse to be silenced.

Posted by: dumbledoresarmy at August 21, 2007 9:08 PM

This is good news.

Posted by: Josephine at August 21, 2007 10:05 PM

Is it not possible to hope that a man can be free to worship the true God without having a malconted islamist chime in with insults?

Islam offers no redemption.

Everytime you people have a dialog with this sadist it's like reading The Screwtape Letters.

Posted by: CapitalistGig at August 21, 2007 10:06 PM

Lest we not forget the magnitude of the conversions in Africa inspired by selfless Christian, medical professionals, who through their scientific learning, ease the pain and suffering of their fellow human beings. Would you doubt that this strange, white man who has a cross hanging on his tent, through what seems like magic, takes youre child, in the grasp of death, and brings him back to life. You feel his love. You seek his God.

Compare this to the Islamic thug who shoots your child for watching a soccer game. You feel his hate. You curse his god.

Posted by: Briars at August 21, 2007 10:22 PM

Assalamau Laikum Provoslavni,

Thank you for your most wonderful write up...it almost brough tears to my eyes.

I now know that I have two good friends you ...and "champ"....although the relationship with champ has been detoriating as she has accused me of hate and lying and cheating ...all I have done is talk of my faith ...just like her...but this unfortunately has left a mark on the friendship.

I agree with you ....to have an open and frank discussion on the christian and muslim Jesus figures.

The beliefs on both sides is strong ...so why not...if Jesus can be cruxified and then resurface 3 days later...this is a miracle that only god can do.....but equally if this is possible ...then so is a baby talking as it says in the quaran....

it is a matter of belief and faith....the 64 million $ question of course is which one is true? assuming that it is the same person in both versions.

This leads to the possibility of wondering whether there were genuinely two peoples...both prophets...but only coincedintally named Jesus PBUh....however I concede that this is unlikely.

Dumbles....your writeup was impressive too...albiet a bit more vitrolic...your absurd accusation is that we have stolen/borrowed your Jesus PBUh...in honesty this is something that I have not really though about before....I mean it's blasphemous...it unhinges Islam in a big way...and makes a mockery of the Koran Sharif....the literal words of Allah....which in turn makes a mockery of Allah SWt.

This is simply to large a suggestion to question...it means that 1.5billion peoples on the planet are wrong.....and I cannot accept this.

Ofcourse the opposite could be true also....that the Quaranic version is true ...but that clever writers have stolen ISA and re-invented him in the bible for power....

I would love to know...will the real Jesus PBUh please stand up!

Posted by: Naseem at August 22, 2007 6:24 AM

"Compare this to the Islamic thug who shoots your child for watching a soccer game. You feel his hate. You curse his god.

Posted by: Briars"

....Muslim Thugs have killed children watching soccer, playing soccer, playing tennis, accepting candy from US Soldiers, listening to Music CDs, trying to escape from burning schools, wearing the wrong clothes, falling in love with the wrong person, reading about other cultures, and for being somewhat mentally slow....

....Islam is a thrill kill machine on steroids....

Ban Muslim Immigration...

Posted by: exsgtbrown at August 22, 2007 6:27 AM

"your absurd accusation is that we have stolen/borrowed your Jesus PBUh...in honesty this is something that I have not really though about before....I mean it's blasphemous...it unhinges Islam in a big way...and makes a mockery of the Koran Sharif....the literal words of Allah....which in turn makes a mockery of Allah SWt.

This is simply to large a suggestion to question...it means that 1.5billion peoples on the planet are wrong...and I cannot accept this"
-- from a Muslim poster [at least as far as we, and not the government ofPakistan, are concerned], 'Naseem' above

No, no. You've misremembered. It's "Fifty million Frenchmen can't be wrong" not "1.5 [sic] billion Muslims can't be wrong."

Posted by: Hugh at August 22, 2007 7:35 AM

Its a good step for Italy to defend the poor mans rights.

It goes to say, in a muslim country, you don't have rights, especially when you are a non muslim.

Allowing Hegazi to live with converting to Christianity will only prove the judicial system or sharia laws has collapsed, in which will be the foundation for others to act the same, to convert out of islam.

Islam depends on command & conquest. Faith has nothing to do in islam. I read the koran many times & I spot numerous mistakes, reading it in chronological order will reveal all the hidden agendas that was meant to be indoctrinated.

I have challanged some clerics in Malaysia on this mistakes. None have an answer or their answer makes no sense. Much like Naseem's comment on Jesus ...'Ridiculous'.

If you are muslim, you MUST believe whatever is in the koran, right or wrong, regardless of sensibility. Most stupid muslims defend islam even if they never read past the first chapter. When they run out of ideas to defend, they sought to violence.

Its human to defend & I cant blame them. It is every muslims right to defend it. However, what happens when someone decides not to be muslim, All of a sudden, the koran makes no sense, he loses confidence over what was taught to him. Disappointment takes over him.

Some of the ex-muslims i know went through this phase. They have no control over themselves, Every muslim Must accept the judgement of a cleric even though he's a dumb nut.

As islam only depends on Might to Enforce, The clerics are the only ones that benefit from this. Its all about money & power.
Thats why everywhere they go, they want a mosque & sharia laws in place. So, in time, it will plague & take over a country.

I understand that in a midst of a war, end of one battle, Mohammad said it was ok for his followers to convert out of islam. Perhaps Naseem could help look for this text.

Theres a small State in Malaysia called Perak, & every year, 15,000 people asked to leave islam. None were allowed. Again, no rights & no freedom.

Think about it, People are getting smarter, they want freedom from clerics & storybooks. Thats why they leave. Now wasnt Islam fair & compassionate religion & was islams' famous quote 'theres no compulsion in religion' ?

So, Naseem, care to enlighten us about allah's plan not to let them convert out.

Perhaps an SMS from god to these guys not to convert will be good.

Muslims who read this, do yourself a good favor & read the koran & read the history of writing the koran.

Posted by: tjwork at August 22, 2007 7:49 AM

Naseem, you are mistaken in so many ways, about so many things.

You are especially mistaken in assuming you have friends here.

Posted by: ImNoDhimmi at August 22, 2007 9:31 AM

Naseem,

"I would love to know...will the real Jesus PBUh please stand up!"

He who said (the Jesus of the Holy Bible ) "I am the way, the truth, and the life" John 14:6 is the one who is the real Jesus.

Posted by: bigcatgirl13106 at August 22, 2007 10:09 AM

I've been wondering...are there any female mohammedans out there who can answer this question?

Which hurts more:

Having one's genitals mutilated

OR

Having one's brain completely closed off from seeking the truth?

Posted by: CapitalistGig at August 22, 2007 10:48 AM

ImNoDhimmi,

I disagee. At least Naseem tries to defend Islam with some logic, however flawed. Unlike the jihadists who send all the disgusting threats to Robert, she does write civilly. Perhaps, Naseem is different, precisely because she claims to be Ahmaddiyya. I, for one, believe that it is good to have someone debate us, since Muslims like Dougie Cooper always refuse to debate Robert when he challenges them.

Posted by: Provoslavni at August 22, 2007 10:50 AM

How long do I wait to be approved before I think maybe my comment didn't go through and write it again?

Posted by: wising_up at August 22, 2007 11:33 AM

Assalamau Laikum Imdhimmi,

So many are mistaken in the ways you say....westerners and muslims.

You sound so sure of yourself....and so sure about me....this is not right...you should never underestimate peoples or things/facts.

If you are in a position to do something...then do it....Allah T'allah you know about...so pray to him....set yourself up for a better life in your next life....ensure that you are on the winning side. Consider the facts:

There are four books that are considered to be inspired:
1) the Torah of Moses (first five books of the Old Testament),
2) the Zabur (Psalms of David),
3) the Injil, (the gospel of Jesus) and
4) the Koran.

We muslims believe the former three contain error because they have been tampered with by Jews and Christians. Since the Koran is God's most recent and final word, it is viewed as superior to all other writings.

The koran is seen as a perfect revelation of God, faithful reproduction of an original engraved on a tablet in heaven which has existed from all eternity.

Copies of the Qur'an are therefore venerated very highly and are only touched and read after ceremonial cleansing.

According to tradition, the Qur'an was originally written on palm leaves, on shoulder-blade bones of camels and on stones.

The Koran lists 28 prophets, including Adam, Noah, Abraham, Moses, David, Jonah and Jesus. Muhammad is the last and greatest prophet.

Allah has determined what he pleases and no one can change what he has decreed.

We Muslims deny the doctrine of the trinity, considering it polytheistic. It maybe blasphemous to call God "Father" because it implies to them that He had sexual relations....Allah SWT is higher than this.

Allah SWT and wuslims will be the only game in town soon ....don't underestimate that....

Get your koran, prayer mat, compass and brillo beard at your earliest opportunity.

Posted by: Naseem at August 22, 2007 11:41 AM

Aah...that went through so I will try again...

Naseem, I am choosing to believe that you are a person who reasons things through and doesn't just take the proverbial "leap" of faith. I find myself wondering about you, and Muslims in general, if you have ever read the Bible. I read somewhere that Muslims are taught not to read the Bible because they may become "beguiled".

Why do Muslims believe the Bible has been tampered with? Who did it? When did they do it? Where is the evidence that this happened?

I have found, in my own experience, that most people of all religions, as well as people who choose not to believe, do take that "leap" of faith without investigating. In this day and age when it is so easy to get information freely and easily it makes no sense to me not to investigate.

Anyone who would like to investigate the evidence for the historicity and veracity of the Bible can go to the website listed below and scroll down to "Is the Bible True?" and "Who is Jesus?" as a place to start to look for evidence.

http://www.allaboutthejourney.org/

Posted by: wising_up at August 22, 2007 11:49 AM

A question that NEEDS to be answered.

If the Koran is a great holy book, why is the Bible the #1 bestselling and greatest book of all time?

And another question to be added:

Could it be that the Holy Bible is REALLY inspired by God and NEVER corrupted at ALL?

Posted by: bigcatgirl13106 at August 22, 2007 11:53 AM

If the koran was originally written on shoulder-blade bones of camels and on stones where are they? These are things that last for centuries. Archaeologists have uncovered much evidence for the historicity of the Bible. I understand that there is more manuscript evidence for it than for the works of Shakespeare.

Posted by: wising_up at August 22, 2007 11:57 AM

wising_up,

What you have said about archaeologists finding new fines in the Holy Land proves that the Bible is right on.

Posted by: bigcatgirl13106 at August 22, 2007 1:05 PM

Naseem said: "We Muslims deny the doctrine of the trinity, considering it polytheistic. It maybe blasphemous to call God "Father" because it implies to them that He had sexual relations....Allah SWT is higher than this."

I, too, had a hard time understanding trinity. Then one winter day when it was very cold, the river was frozen but with patches of open water, and the sun was shining brightly, I saw.

Steam was rising from the ice floating on the river. I saw water, the solid...water, the liquid..and water, the gas. Three, yet one. One, yet three. Then I thought about the periodic table of elements. They all exist in three forms, liquid, solid, gas, yet they are one. Time is trinity...past, present, future. Man...body, soul, spirit. Each of these examples exist in a trinity, none can exist without the other, yet are "different" in...oh, I don't know..expression?

The Bible teaches that God has not left us without witness..."For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse." I see and understand trinity now through what has been made.

As for God having sex with Mary...the Bible is very clear on this as well. "And Mary said to the angel, "How can this be, since I am a virgin?" And the angel answered and said to her, "The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you; and for that reason the holy offspring shall be called the Son of God...For nothing will be impossible with God." No sex; instead, the power of God with Whom nothing is impossible. (I think you have indicated in your posts that you believe nothing is impossible with God, as well.)

Posted by: wising_up at August 22, 2007 2:27 PM

Naseem -

I would rather die than pray to allah, piss be upon him, and hell will freeze over before I get a koran and a prayer mat. Your supremacist attitude makes me sick.

Posted by: ImNoDhimmi at August 22, 2007 3:40 PM

When Jesus was baptized by John, the voice of God was heard from above, and the Holy Spirit appeared in the form of a dove.

Unless God is a ventriloquist, they are three separate beings.

Posted by: DownWithIslam at August 22, 2007 5:23 PM