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This would be consistent with the proposition that all pre-Islamic artifacts are simply the remnants of jahiliyya, the pre-Islamic period of ignorance, and are hence worthless trash. The destruction of material dating from the ancient Temples, of course, also serves another useful purpose for the Palestinian Authority: it helps efface the Jewish historical claim to the land.
By Robert Berger for VOA News:
Ancient artifacts are at the heart of a fresh dispute between Jews and Arabs at a hotly contested holy place in Jerusalem. As Robert Berger reports from VOA's Jerusalem bureau, the dispute points to the simmering religious tensions behind the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.Israeli archaeologists accuse Islamic authorities of damaging artifacts from Biblical times at the al-Aqsa Mosque in Jerusalem. The mosque sits on a plaza, which Jews call the Temple Mount and Muslims call the Noble Sanctuary. The al-Aqsa Mosque is the third holiest site for Muslims. As the site of the two Biblical temples, the Temple Mount is the holiest place in Judaism. The area is a focal point of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.
Trouble began when the Wakf, the Islamic Trust that administers the site, brought in a tractor to dig a trench. The Wakf said it was replacing a 40-year-old electrical cable, but Israeli archaeologists were furious.
"In the last week, the Islamic Wakf authorities on the Temple Mount have carried out a barbaric act of excavating illicitly," said archaeologist Gabi Barkai.
He told a news conference that the digging of the 400-meter long channel has harmed relics from the time of the Temples.
"This channel destroyed several layers of ancient remains upon the Temple Mount," he added. "The trench encountered also a built wall which could have belonged to the outer courtyards of the Temple itself."
Muslim authorities have denied the allegations, describing them as "sheer propaganda." They say they respect antiquities, and the infrastructure work did not cause any damage.
Palestinian worshipper Ismael Ramadan told VOA that Israel has no right to interfere in what happens at a Muslim holy place.
"I grew up and I see [with] my eyes and I see this is [a] mosque. I don't see [a] temple," he said.
Like many Palestinians, he believes the temples never existed.
"It's not true," he said. "No Temple."
For years, Israeli archaeologists have accused Islamic authorities of systematically destroying Temple artifacts in an attempt to erase any Jewish connection with the holy place.
Posted by Robert at September 2, 2007 1:57 AM
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And this is the site of reverence that Muslims believe was visited one night from hundreds of miles away by a guy who was flown there on a polyspecied beast?
Dore Gold's "Battle for Jerusalem" has more to say with less cynicism than this respondent.
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at September 2, 2007 2:39 AM
Definition Of the word "Delusion"
1. false belief: a persistent false belief held in the face of strong contradictory evidence, especially as a symptom of a psychiatric condition.
Ismael Ramadan has a classic case of the biblical
"STRONG DELUSION"
2Th 2:10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
2Th 2:11 And for this cause God shall send them "STRONG DELUSION", that they should believe a lie:
2Th 2:12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
Posted by: Joe Schmoe USA at September 2, 2007 3:20 AM
Moslems respecting other peoples archaeological and historical sites yet right they really dojust look at all the Hindu Temples they destroyed or converted into mosques or the giant Buddhas in Afghanistan the Taliban destroyed a world-class heritage site over 3000 years old destroyed in one afternoon in the name of Islam or the Crusader era Christian graveyards in countries are now Muslim that have had their gravestones that themselves were archaeological wonders Muslims records on anything that does not fit their narrow view of historysince the time of Mohammed there a pedophile prophet is either destroyed ignored or thrown out a good example is the Temple Mount is history from the Romans going back at least 1300 years showing that in fact there was a temple there before Muhammad rode out of the desert and founded his cult and those records show that the Jews and king Solomon's temple were there at least a thousand years before Muslims came along but Muslims are also some of the greatest revisionists of history alive as well some of the greatest liars that will ignore the truth when it does not fit what they want to believe how can you tell when a Muslim historian is lying his lips are moving
Posted by: mowasaperv at September 2, 2007 3:34 AM
Most reading this story in the MSM would just say "barbarians", but JWers know these are "barbarians with a mission". The difference being that barbarians can, eventually, be taught to be civilised.
Posted by: Brett_McS at September 2, 2007 4:01 AM
It was only a few short months ago that the Mohammedans were protesting because the Israelis wanted to repair a pathway at the same site. The Israeli work did not involve digging any trenches.
The real issue here is that there was no need to dig such a deep trench which means that there was an ulterior motive behind what took place.
The Mohammedans should be expelled from the Temple Mount. The area does not belong to them.
Posted by: OzzieAussie at September 2, 2007 4:44 AM
The fact that important religeous and historical artifacts are being damaged and destroyed is horrific in itself. However, what most people don't know that the illegal excavations that the Waqf are carrying out is actually damaging the foundations of the temple mount. There is a growing fear among experts that the compound area will collapse. If this happens then the whole middle east will explode as the Evil Zionist entity will be blamed for the destruction of one of the holiest sites of the Muslim world. The Israeli Government, by turning a blind eye to the excavations for whatever leftwing political reason, is in fact taking a bigger risk by doing nothing than if it did something.
Posted by: shez at September 2, 2007 7:55 AM
I dont blame the Palis, I blame Olmert
Posted by: Elric66 at September 2, 2007 8:10 AM
Yes, we all know from past examples such as those listed above, just how much muslims respect antiquities.........
Posted by: ImNoDhimmi at September 2, 2007 8:19 AM
"The al-Aqsa Mosque is the THIRD holiest site for Muslims."
Why does the press always report this deceptive lie? Moslem aggressors built the ignoble sanctuary to stiffle the Christians and Jews. Building the sanctuary was part of Mohammed's battle plan to continue the world take over against the symbolic capitals of the pigs and apes. Notice Moslems justify and attribute the conquering of Jerusalem to a dream that Mohammed allegedly had. Mohammed's dream pure and simple is to subdue and dominate Jews and Christians and to convert or kill the rest of humanity.
The plunder of the holiest site in Judaism is justified by Mohammed's 'I have a dream speech.' I have a dream: (Mohammed) where infidels are killed and Moslems will sit down with little pigs and apes and taunt them into becoming new zombies for islam. Subversion, aggression, murder and death are sanctified by islam, hence, the holiest Jewish site become the 3rd holiest one to moslems, rather than the tens of thousands of places that have mosques.
The reality is that the alleged competing house of worship is actually a competing house to subvert. Holy, holy, holy to a moslem is not what "holy" is to the Judeo-Christian tradition. It is "holy" to a moslem to destroy the competitor's religion and its sanctuaries. The moslem has no respect for the other.
The (ig)noble sanctuary is not a competition where a competing religion can go and pray adjacently in mutual respect. Only the moslem will not allow the other. Only the moslem needs to kill the other. The moslem refuses to play with the rest of humanity nicely.
The press has created an artificial conflict between moslem and infidel and between the holy places, pretending that the conflict is inevitable while it is truly only a one way conflict. The press pretends this conflict is a cycle of violence refusing to acknowledge it exists because of the vicious sickening aggression of the moslems who will never consider compromise.
This journalist gets an F in journalism for reporting normal press platitudes that the mosque is the third holiest site in islam. The journalist failed to say Constantinople was the fourth holiest site and that the Vatican which is the fifth holiest site, though it is not yet under the control of islam is expected to be shortly.
The press needs to put its own articles in perspective and educate and where necessary warn the reader. Infidels of the world need their own intifada when moslems blow up Hindu statutes, throw grenades into churches or trash the cultural heritage of humanity which may be under their marauding mosque.
Posted by: David England at September 2, 2007 8:40 AM
What the MSM chooses to ignore is that wherever Islam has conquered the first thing they do is convert the indigenous peoples holy sites into mosques. The Mosque is a sign of conquest. David is right in saying that the Vatican is the fifth holiest site of Islam just not yet under their rule.
Two events come to mind. A couple of years ago in Nazereth the Muslims wanted to build a Mosque exactly opposite the church(please forgive me as I am not aquainted with the name of the church) which is considered one of the important Churches of Christianity. At the time much was made of the Christians of Nazereths opposition to it. But the Christians understood full well the meaning of what the Muslims were trying to do. Conquer by stealth. The second event was the calous use of terrorsits of the Church of the Nativity in Bethlehem a few years ago. Using it as a sanctuary from the Israeli's but causing much destruction while they were there.
at September 2, 2007 9:06 AM
I dont blame the Palis, I blame OlmertPosted by: Elric66 at September 2, 2007 8:10 AM
From the JPost's article:
The work, which is being carried out with the approval of Prime Minister Ehud Olmert and the state-run Antiquities Authority, has been repeatedly condemned by independent Israeli archaeologists, who are calling for its immediate halt.
"The Israeli Government is lending a hand to the destruction of one of the most important archaeological sites in the world," said Bar-Ilan University archaeologist Dr. Gabriel Barkai at a Jerusalem press conference.
Wicked, wicked men.
Posted by: Shy Guy at September 2, 2007 9:12 AM
Olmert in my opinion is more dangerous than Arafat ever was. The leaders before him allowed some of the same crap., I agree.
Posted by: Elric66 at September 2, 2007 9:18 AM
Europeans came over and conquered America. In the conflict, both sides did bad things. But the smoke has cleared and most Americans honor the Country’s Indian heritage. I was involved in a construction project whereby the taxpayer built twenty-some nice new homes on the Reservation for Indian families, free of charge. Sports teams go by the names of Indian tribes. Look at the number of US towns named after the Indians. America’s premier coin is the $50 American Buffalo, with an Sioux warrior on the face side.
Compare Manifest Destiny with Islamic expansion where Buddhist statues are blown up, Jewish remains are destroyed, and locals are converted, subjugated, or killed.
Posted by: pez at September 2, 2007 10:23 AM
The irony here is that the word "vandal" would be the obvious word to use to describe this sort of typical Muslim behaviour and yet the historical Vandals are nothing compared with Muslims who have rampaged all over the world destroying whatever does not appeal to them. Compared with the destruction caused by Muslims, the Vandals do not even rate either in duration of effect or in the degree of damage done.
Perhaps we should replace the word "vandal" by the word "muslim" in common English usage for the wanton destruction of any object.
Posted by: MisIslamist at September 2, 2007 10:28 AM
So why does Olmer want to turn over the Temple Mount to the islamic overseers?
Furthermore, why is the Israeli military ordered to keep the Archaeologists out?
I accept the fact that all religions worship one god -- its name is CA$H; yet, I submit that it is too bad the Jews refuse to believe in their own special diety and his designated prophets that are not of this world.
Truly, they would be better served.
Posted by: witness at September 2, 2007 10:36 AM
Destroyers, "Locust People".
Posted by: interestinconundrum at September 2, 2007 11:08 AM
http://true-stuff.com/public/blog/130238
Posted by: interestinconundrum at September 2, 2007 11:12 AM
I take it for granted that there will always be evil in this world, for one reason or another. The question, to paraphrase Edmund Burke, is: what are "good" people going to do about it?
For the average man, the answer is - nothing. During WW2, it is said that some European churchgoers could hear the screams of people in trains on their way to the concentration camps - so they just sang a little louder. When Kitty Genovese was being murdered, no one responded to her screams for help. After 9/11, some of my academic colleagues inquired, "Why do they hate us so much?" instead of "How can we help destroy the jihad?" A handicapped woman was legally deprived of food and water for 13 days, tortured to death, so her adulterous husband could collect her life insurance. And the Israeli government has turned its wrath not on its genocidal enemies, but rather on its greatest patriots who attempt to defend their irreplaceable heritage.
In Judaism, the land of Israel has a special degree of holiness; that of Jerusalem is higher; the Old City is higher still; and the Temple Mount is highest of all. It is said to be the center of creation; the birthplace of Adam; the place where Abraham nearly sacrificed Isaac; the location of Jacob's dream; not to mention the empirically verifiable location of the two Temples. Is the hidden Holy Ark, together with the Tablets of the Covenant, already crushed to dust underneath a Muslim construction vehicle? This is the whole jihad in less than 1 square mile. Why can't the Israeli government simply say, no more construction-destruction here? Why won't they allow archaeologists to supervise the work, or to sift through the ruins? How can we possibly avoid the conclusion that the Israeli government is in fact one of the worst enemies of Judaism and desecrators of God's name on earth, maybe the worst? (It should be obvious that when I lament the threat to the continuity of Jewish identity, that this threat has an effect on any religion that claims the Hebrew Bible as part of its heritage, namely, Christianity.)
Can anyone imagine, God forbid, that the American government would allow the Mexican government to raze Independence Hall and/or the National Archives, and arrest Americans who attempted to stop this destruction? That is what we are talking about here.
Posted by: Surak at September 2, 2007 11:25 AM
...Muslims fear that the truth about the Jews being there long before Islam even began would start the decline of Islam...Why, such a truth would prove Isam has be a lie since day one .....
...Imagine all those Muslims finding out they have been deceived since they were born....
....as others have noted...where ever Muslims go, one of the very first things they do is to destroy the churches, then they destroy the religions icons and statutes and history....they vanquish the Non Muslims into oblivion..they destroy the history books, the religious texts, the garments of the Non Muslim clerics....then they proceed to kill off all those who refuse to convert to Islam, thereby erasing all memory from those that have converted....
In the Western worlds you see Muslims trying to do exactly this by demanding footbaths, demanding paid prayer time, demanding special prayer rooms , demanding to be allowed to wear the burka and the niqab, demanding other to give in to their demands, demanding , demanding, demanding, demanding....and if the demands are not met, then rioting, lawsuits, civil disobedience, and assassinations begin....to be continued until such time as a Muslim army can arrive to enslave the now conquered country....
....you can name any country you choose and you can see these things happening...it is time to put the brakes on the Jihad, (and a jihad can take many forms), start by Banning Muslim Immigration...
at September 2, 2007 11:35 AM
From 'Israel Today':
"Three places in the Holy Land were not conquered in war by the Jewish people, but were purchased according to the law of the Land. And these are the very places the Moslems want to take from the Jews:
Abraham paid 400 shekels of silver for the Machpela Cave (now the Tomb of the Patriarchs) in Hebron to bury his wife Sarah. (Genesis 23:16)
The Israelites bought a place in Shechem (today’s Nablus) for 100 coins to bury Joseph’s bones. (Genesis 33:19)
David bought the threshing floor on Mount Moriah for 100 shekels of silver, so the Temple could be built there. "
Posted by: poetcomic1 at September 2, 2007 11:43 AM
Any Israeli JW'ers here that can tell us what the mood of the Israeli people is?
Posted by: Elric66 at September 2, 2007 11:56 AM
"Palestinian worshipper Ismael Ramadan told VOA that Israel has no right to interfere in what happens at a Muslim holy place."
- Amusing....these guys don't even recognize that it has any importance to Jews at all.
No surprise though, I mean do you blame the monkey making the mess or the twits who gave the monkey the license to dig? I blame the Israeli government for allowing such things to transpire in the first place.
Posted by: Sneakyzionistcrusader at September 2, 2007 12:12 PM
Any Israeli JW'ers here that can tell us what the mood of the Israeli people is?Posted by: Elric66 at September 2, 2007 11:56 AM
Words that come to mind: complacency, ignorance, inertia, numbness, confusion, surrender, slumber, hopelessness and just plain stupidity.
I'll stop here.
Posted by: Shy Guy at September 2, 2007 12:22 PM
Maybe it is time to take the Temple Mount for the Jews and just let the Muslims howl. Their mosque there is made up of destroyed Christian church buildings anyway. As a Christian I would rather see the pieces of old churches laid to rest than be part of a temple for the Religion of Lies.
Let's do what is right for the Jews (God's true people) and let these wicked people wail and gnash their teeth.
Posted by: James Martel at September 2, 2007 12:26 PM
"I don't blame the Palis, I blame Olmert.
posted by Elric66
So do I, Elric66. I always respected Benjamin Netanyahu, the furniture maker from Illinois. Of course, many Israeli associated his tenure with an increase in violence. I wish he were in charge now.
Last summer I recall muslims in Jerusalem blamimg the Israelis for digging beneath the Temple Mount. They said it was part of a Jewish plot to cause their 'holy place' to cave in.
Oh, were that the truth. They are always guilty of whatever they accuse their enemies.
Posted by: CapitalistGig at September 2, 2007 1:53 PM
Moslems don't care if a Jewish temple stood there before they conquered the land for Mohammed's vicious satanic crusade against other peoples. Once they took over, everything there is now non-history to them. They just don't care about antiquity. Research of archeological evidence means nothing to them. What really gets them going is that this conquered land reverted back to the Jews. Now that's important to them, because their Mohammedan teachings are that once it is Islamic land it can never go back. That's their real beef, not whether or not a Jewish temple stood there, but that the Jews got back the land. Destroying historical evidence is what Mohammedans must do, per their evil belief system, in order to erase history and make it non-history. Then, once the truth is erase, they are at peace with it... as their 'religion of peace' teaches them. Kill and destroy and then there is peace.
/sarc
at September 2, 2007 2:35 PM
Take it back! your land Israel! It was a mistake done in good jesture by bad advice! They are there to destroy! They will never stop till they are destroyed! Or they will destroy the Holy Land!
Then they can build another Cresent! A sign people died here by the islamist! Sealed in blood!
The land belongs to the Jews! They have every right now to take it back. They have proved over and over what they are going to do. No peace only that of death-3rd kind-peace! All taqiyya!
It will continue and never end! It needs to be done! Take it back!
at September 2, 2007 3:07 PM
This is nothing new.
Posted by: callmeinfidel at September 2, 2007 4:41 PM
Dear Shy Guy -
answering Elric66, you posted:
"Jerusalem here!
Words that come to mind: complacency, ignorance, inertia, numbness, CONFUSION, surrender, slumber, hopelessness and just plain stupidity.
I'll stop here."
Mate - have you read "Frank"'s postings on jihadwatch, about how Muslim propagandists' use of spiritual violence is just like Hitler's? The state of mind you just described is precisely what the practitioners of 'spiritual violence' seek to achieve in their victims. That you speak of CONFUSION is particularly telling. Read M Scott Peck "People of the Lie". He says one of the key marks of a thoroughly evil human being is that they "create confusion" in those that they encounter.
Half your population came to Israel after having been 'worked over' by Hitler, a master of spiritual violence. The other half had been near-slave dhimmis, their minds screwed over by the even worse 'spiritual violence' of Muslims for a thousand-plus years (the miracle is that so many Jews imprisoned within the Empire of Islam had managed NOT to become Muslims, to keep on clinging to YHWH and His promises; but they were still people who'd been deeply hurt).
And THEN - for sixty years you've been hammered not just with war, or Muslim terror raiding, but with a non-stop barrage of Big Lie propaganda from the Muslims and their fellow-travellers. (If you read French, look up Jacques Ellul, "Un Chretien Pour Israel", the chapter on 'Propaganda'. Ellul states right out that one reason he chose to support Israel is because - as a longtime analyst and deconstructer of propaganda - he had observed twenty years' worth of monstrous and clever propaganda flooding out against Israel; he then proceeds to ruthlessly anatomise that anti-Israel propaganda, its sources, methods and aims). To borrow an image from J K Rowlings' Harry Potter books, Israel has been under assault, not just from Boggarts, but from Dementors, for a very long time.
It's a miracle that you Israelis have stayed as sane, and as productive and focused, as you have. Subjected to the same pressures I think any other human group would have collapsed long ago. But - as your post makes clear - it IS getting to you.
And having to watch this latest rape of the Temple Mount by arrogant petty-minded Muslims makes me - a Christian - just as sick to my stomach as it's making you. (BTW - I have NO 'end time' agenda whatever - I am simply disgusted by this Muslim sadism and triumphalism. I think the Mount belongs to you guys, NO-ONE ELSE has a claim anywhere near as good, and you ought to have it back, under your exclusive control, as a matter of simple human justice. I'm also revolted by Muslim vandalism).
Still: please, don't let the bastards mess with your minds. Remember these words from Zechariah, 2:5: "I [the Holy One, HaShem] will be a wall of fire round about Jerusalem; and I will be the glory in her midst".
I don't know if you're 'religious' or not, Shy Guy. Even if you're not, perhaps it's time to chant Tehillim. I mean it - it will help you fight off the Dementors that Islam and its Useful Idiots are projecting. Get your heads clear of the black fog; and THEN you'll know what to do, when and how.
Know that there are Gentile Christians like me who don't have any hidden agendas AT ALL - we're just trying to obey what it says in the Bible, that we're supposed to bless Israel, not curse him - and we're right alongside you in spirit, praying day in, day out, calling on the Shepherd of Israel to protect and defend His people.
Remember, too, the secular Gentiles like Hugh Fitzgerald, right here at jihadwatch, who are arguing your case in purely political, rational terms.
Next time you go to the Kotel, say Psalm 74 - it's the first thing I would do if I were able to visit Jerusalem.
Consider this email the virtual equivalent of a large bottle of best red wine (kosher, of course).
PS - Pace the rationalists and atheists, I do regard prayer as practical. However: what are two or three small, concrete actions that people like myself, living so far away, can take to help Israel defeat what Hugh Fitzgerald calls 'the Lesser Jihad'?
Posted by: dumbledoresarmy at September 2, 2007 7:21 PM
God bless you, dumbledoresarmy. In Genesis, God promises blessings to those who bless Abraham.
Your psychological insight is right on the money. There is a relentless quality to the evil ones - communists and jihadists. This is wearying to people with a sensitivity to life. The only way to stop such monstrous evil is to kill the perpetrators - see C.S. Lewis's Perelandra.
I quit my tenured position at another college recently due to 4 years of anti-Semitic harassment by the communist faculty, while the local Jewish establishment did nothing. In my new position, I'm earning more at a more professional school - hooray - but the evil ones did achieve their victory.
We will lose our war to save Western civilization if we don't crush its enemies.
Posted by: Surak at September 2, 2007 10:27 PM
That was so sweet, Dumbledore's Army. I can't begin to tell you. You realize how *painful* living under "spiritual terrorism" is.
And your kind words are a salve.
And about that "wine", I say to you - L'Chiam!!!
:-)
at September 2, 2007 10:34 PM
I don't know if you're 'religious' or not, Shy Guy. Even if you're not, perhaps it's time to chant Tehillim. I mean it - it will help you fight off the Dementors that Islam and its Useful Idiots are projecting. Get your heads clear of the black fog; and THEN you'll know what to do, when and how.Posted by: dumbledoresarmy at September 2, 2007 7:21 PM
Besides being Torah observant, our family is very active in the issues of the day here. We are anything but asleep. What I posted is what we see on a national level.
Psalm 74 is a good choice. However, may I recommend Psalm 83, which many praying Jews having been saying after morning prayers daily for years now.
Also, when approaching Jerusalem, I recommend Psalm 48.
Posted by: Shy Guy at September 3, 2007 12:33 AM
"Jerusalem" literally means "foundation of peace", (Hebrew: "Yerushalayim", from "Yarah" - he cast, threw + "shalom" - peace).
Unlike "Islam", which has nothing to do with "peace", but means "submission".
Mohammad's "Night Journey" (a dream), in which he "visited" the "fatherest mosque" (claimed by Muslims to signify ""Jerusalem", although there was no mosque in the city during Mohammad's lifetime), forms the Islamic "justification" for their "right" to the site of the Temple Mount in the ancient Hebrew metropolis.
A distortion, based on fantasy, enforced by terror.
How the word-splitting and scholary Jews have ever put up with this fallacious silliness is what baffles me.
Once the irrational and fraudulent basis for the Muslim "claim" is exposed, using their own texts, the Israelis can then, with complete justice, order the site cleared (truck the Dome of the Rock to Egypt for a tourist attraction) and the Temple rebuilt.
Posted by: profitsbeard at September 3, 2007 12:51 AM
Shy Guy -
first, I apologise for any unintentional offence I might have caused, by the paragraph you cite.
It must be very hard for you and your family, who ARE awake and aware, to see so many Israelis still blinded by the confusion and hopelessness 'at the national level', that you describe. (Over the past couple of years that I have been regularly reading Jerusalem Post online, and certain other sources, I have sensed the same problem). But there is still hope that between your prayers and actions, and those of many others, the darkness may be broken.
Yes, I know of the call to pray Psalm 83; I have done so, regularly, since the time of the Hezbollah-Israel war last year. Indeed I sat down just this afternoon and prayed through it again, bearing in mind you personally and all the other Israelis (as well as diaspora Jews) who post at jihadwatch. Given the horrible threats of the madman in Iran, it looks as though Psalm 83 will be only too relevant for quite a while yet.
Indeed, Psalm 48 - one of the loveliest in the book of Psalms - is appropriate for one approaching Jerusalem, whether in body or in spirit. Thank you for reminding me of it.
Keep posting here at jihadwatch. I'm sure everyone here will always be interested in your frontline 'take' on events of the Lesser Jihad.
Shalom.
Posted by: dumbledoresarmy at September 3, 2007 2:50 AM
first, I apologise for any unintentional offence I might have caused, by the paragraph you cite.Absolutely none taken or I would have said so. I'm not shy. ;)
Over the past couple of years that I have been regularly reading Jerusalem Post onlineToday's JPost has shifted over hard left, in the direction of Ha'aretz. We no longer subscribe to the JPost, in principle, for that reason. Yet from the stupidities they publish, you get a good feeling just how berserk so many Jews have become. Today's sample lunacy is from the head of the so-called "Rabbis" for so-called "Human Rights":
Counterpoint: Sleeping with the enemy.
The article's title is ironic beyond imagination.
"Thy children are too hasty, but thy demolishers and thy destroyers must first depart from being amongst thee."
Isaiah 49:17
So it was prior to the Exodus from Egypt.
Keep posting here at jihadwatch
I hope the next time Mr. Spencer visits Israel, I'll get a bit of a heads-up. I have several of his books that need autographing.
Posted by: Shy Guy at September 3, 2007 3:34 AM
Jerusalem is NEVER mentioned in the Koran, so the Muslims claim to that holy city is really in question. Plus this "dream stuff" of Muhammed can really be put to question because that can also be made up too.
Posted by: bigcatgirl13106 at September 3, 2007 7:10 AM
Pictures of the destruction (taken Sunday, September 2) here.
at September 3, 2007 7:51 AM
Pictures of the destruction (taken Sunday, September 2) here.
at September 3, 2007 7:52 AM
Latest Arutz 7 article on the subject:
Remnants of the Second Temple Being Destroyed by Islamic Wakf.
Where is UNESCO's condemnation of Israel when we really need it?!
Posted by: Shy Guy at September 3, 2007 8:42 AM
Dear Shyguy, dumbledorsarmy and elric66,
The feeling in the street of Israel is everything that you have said and more. The more being frustration.
Frustration because of the political system. It does not matter who you vote for you end up with the same issues. Sharon was voted in on an anti-appeasement platform. He did an about face. Another blogger here mentioned Bibi. I don't remember increased violence during his period. In fact he was elected because of the increased violence that was inflicted by the terrorists during the Shimon Peretz period. I had great hopes for Bib.I will never trust him again. People have forgotten that he fast tracked the Olso accords (that was were the increased violence came from)
The voice if the people is consistantly being ingnored in Israel. Sharon promised a refernedum with regards to the disengagement. It never happened.
Shyguy said:
Words that come to mind: complacency, ignorance, inertia, numbness, CONFUSION, surrender, slumber, hopelessness and just plain stupidity.
The stupidity is reserved for the Media and the Left wing of the Israeli political spectrum. The left wing is in control of the Media, Academia and Judicial system.
The Political system in Israel is structured so that there is no real accountability to the people. There is no proportional representation.
In a system of proportional representation, the country is divided into zones. One zone for each seat in Parlaiment. Each political party then puts up a candidate for that zone.During elections each zone votes directly for a candidate to represent the zone in parlaiment.In Australia for example, if I don't like what my member for parlaiment is doing, I can decide not to vote for him/her. This puts the candidate in the position of having to display integrity to the people who voted him in as well as to his party. In theory an incumbant Prime minister can lose his position even if his party had the majority in Parlaiment.
The way it works in Israel is like this: the people vote for a political party. The members of political party decides who will be the candidates for the Knesset. They have a list of their candidates going from 1 through to 120. This list is decided by members of the party.Therefore to get a good spot on the list you have to be a good shmoozer in your party. There is no direct vote by the general population.The only loyalty the politician has is to his political party. That is if the Likud get 20% of the vote they will get 20% of the seats. The first 24 people on the list will get into the Knesset. This is the flaw in the Israeli political system.
In Australia if I don't like what my member for parlaiment is doing I can decide not to vote for him/her. This puts the candidate in the position of having to display integrity to the people who voted him in as well as to his party.
In Israel I have no such power. I can only vote for the party. I can not change the players in the party. When I go to vote I can only hope that this time I won't be betrayed.
Because there is no proportional representation in Israel, the politicians are increasingly divorced from what the average Israeli thinks. They can do this because there is no accountability, not from the left wing media, not from the Judiciary - short of a civil war the man on the street feels that there is nothing he can do . There is an expression in Israel that goes "Ze trefah ve Ze nevelah" the polite translation of which is one is as bad as the other.
When people feel powerless and that they are not being heard.They become despondant, I wouldn't say slumber I would say exhaustion. The people in the street know full well that Israel in its present course is heading for a disaster. It doesn't matter who we vote for we still end up on the same road.
However, there is hope people are becoming increasingly angrier and more than ever there is a movement back to religion.
at September 3, 2007 11:15 AM
Out of this I can see what Netanyahu meant by : " Before each great massacre comes the big lie".
By destroying a peoples' history(its roots) one is better able to exterminate their presence and them.
Posted by: purplemarbles at September 4, 2007 3:18 AM
Surak, some leadership/statehood dilemmas might be explained for you here:
(the Michael Oren lecture) @
http://www.abc.net.au/rn/backgroundbriefing/
at September 4, 2007 11:14 AM
I meant the Israeli statehood/leadership issues - oh, these elusive adjectives.
Posted by: carpediadem at September 4, 2007 11:17 AM
"The destruction of material dating from the ancient Temples, of course, also serves another useful purpose for the Palestinian Authority: it helps efface ***the Jewish historical claim to the land.***"
"We're supposed to bless Israel, not curse him."
If I need to assert that some of my best friends are Jews, then, well, some of my best friends are Jews. It is understandable that Muslims wish to denigrate Jewish claims to the land, but they are not operating with any degree of understanding about what the Bible has to say about those claims. They are operating with purely selfish motives.
The claim to the land was broken forever by rejecting the Messiah. The result was the sack of Jerusalem in AD 70 and the dispersion of the Jews throughout the world. Read Dt. 28.
St. Paul says in Romans 2, "he is a Jew who is circumcized in his heart," and that circumsicion of the flesh means nothing. And in Gal. 6:16 he says, "Peace upon the Israel of God," which, given the context, could not have meant national Israel or the Jews since he was deprecating the need for Christian circumcision. See also the book of Hebrews entire. OT Israel was the shadow. Once the sun (Son) arrived the shadows disappeared.
The blessings promised to Israel by the prophets were for obedience, and the curses were for disobedience. Read Dt. 28. The Jews' disobedience led to the destruction of Jerusalem in AD 70. Therefore, the promised blessings devolved upon the Church, the Israel of God, the Heavenly Jerusalem, the City of God (and other terms in the NT that clearly refer to the Church) for which they were meant at any rate. See Hebrews 12, where the entire OT is referred to as an allegory, and the Church as the real deal.
If someone wants to support the political entity known as Israel for political reasons, fine, I don't care, go for it, but there is absolutely no biblical/prophetic reason to do so. Insofar as bad eschatological theology has informed anyone's foreign policy views, his views need to be re-evaluated.
Posted by: ChristianRepublic at September 4, 2007 2:21 PM
To 'Christian Republic' -
How Odd
of God
to Choose
the Jews.
BUT NOT SO ODD AS THOSE WHO CHOOSE
THE JEWISH GOD - AND SPURN THE JEWS.
God is bigger than you think.
The texts you cite are by no means the whole story, nor is the interpretation you present, the ONLY possible reading of the view of the gospel and apostolic writers - all of whom, with the possible exception of St Luke, were ...Jews.
Please re-read Romans 9-11 slowly and prayerfully and remember especially St Paul/ Rabbi Saul's warning to Gentile believers about boasting.
Myself, I do not believe for one second that YHWH has ever ceased to love the people to whom He bound himself by a unilateral and everlasting covenant. Wrath yes, judgement yes, but NEVER the end of love.
"If you're lost if you look you will find Me, time after time.
If you fall, I'll be there, I will catch you, time after time".
Only the words of a pop song that my son likes to listen to - but every time I hear it I hear the central theme of YHWH's relationship with the people of Israel, the Hebrews, the Israelites, the Jews.
The Jewish state of Israel currently contains the single largest Jewish community on the face of the earth.
If the Muslims achieve their goal of destroying it, it will be nothing less than a second Shoah. Or haven't you been listening to Mr Ahmadinejad?
Can you - who claim to worship a Jew, Yeshua of Nazareth - even begin to imagine standing by and watching THAT with complacent equanimity?
If Mahmoud Ahmadinejad drops an atom bomb on Jerusalem, will you weep - or will you merely tell yourself that those wicked Jews are getting what they deserve, for presuming to defy the Curse of Everlasting Exile?
at September 4, 2007 6:14 PM
Dear dumbledorsarmy,
We, the Jews are now entering the period of the new year.It is a month of holy days and religious festivals beginning with Rosh Hashana - the first days of the new year followed by the ten days of attonement and then Yom Kippur - the day of attonement. During this period we pray and fast and beg G-d to forgive us our sins and pray for forgiveness. This is then followed by Succoth, I think that the english traslation of this is "festival of Booths". During the festival of booths at the time of the temple 70 offerings were made in order to bring abundance and blessings to the 70 nations of the world. Today without the temple, offerings are replaced by prayer. I say this to you because, this year when my husband, my children and I sit in our succah and pray for abundance and blessings for all nations in the world, I will be thinking of you and the wonderful people like you who understand that G-d does not belong to one people or one nation or one race.
There is a story that we were taught in school that at the time the Egyptians were drowning in the "Red Sea" after following the people of Israel, the angels wanted to sing songs of joy, G-d asked them how can you sing songs of joy when my creations are suffering?
You understand this dumbldorsarmy. You understand that G-d is not happy when any of his creations are suffering.
What many people do not understand about Judaism is that we do not believe that you need to be jewish to get into the Kingdom of Heaven, or to be resurreceted at the time of the resurrection. All a non-jew has to do is to follow the seven Noahide laws. Which is tantamount to being a good honest person who abhors suffering and beleives in G-d. For us Jews it's a bit more difficult we have 613 laws we have to keep.
I will leave you with the traditional blessing for this time of the year: may you be written for a good and sweet year.
at September 4, 2007 9:34 PM
Hmm!
Again, God damnit.
See the late and much lamented (quite rightly) Dominic's post at
http://www.jihadwatch.org/dhimmiwatch/archives/015326.php
Posted by: OliverPCamford at September 5, 2007 12:00 AM
Well, what can one say? Dominic saw the issue plainly. Do you? The damned illiterate Muslims are at it again on the Temple Mount. Slowly but surely their encroachments will destroy, as they wish to, all the evidence about the reality of this one of the most important sites in, and for, the Western world.
Basically, as the late Dominic so astutely grasped, they can't live with the the reality of history so they are just going to obliterate the evidence and then re-write the history. God, it makes you sick, doesn't it?
(Incidentally, the idea that the incredibly professional Israeli archeological services, responsible for some of the most important sites in western history and pre-history, would stoop to cheap political tricks and outright lies - as implied by the Wakf - is just ridiculous, unbelievably ridiculous. Israeli archaelogists, and all those under their licensing system whom they invite to join them in their work, are amongst the most respected archaeologists in the world. As far as I am aware at the moment they are still painstakingly sifting through the rubble piles dumped by the last Muslim vandalisation - the one that the late Dominic comments about - of the Temple Mount and finding many valuable clues and artefacts - clues and artefacts that have been torn from their context by overwheening Muslim arrogance and the Muslim impetus towards the destruction of any Jewish or Christian claims upon the Temple Mount.)
When, oh when, are we going to fight back and yell loudly and longly at these stupid, primitive, Muslim people? Why are we allowing them their re-writing of OUR history? What the hell do we think we are doing? Does anybody here seriously believe their version of Jewish history? I, for one, certainly don't. The archaeological proofs of the assertions and records of the Jewish people are overwhelming.
The exact art and subtle science of Archaeology gives you the facts about the history of the elder faith - the Jews and their Jewishness. That these inferior Muslims are allowed to continue to destroy one of the most important archaeological sites in the world in the name of a fascist and domineering religion is an insult to every impetus towards enlightened knowledge that we, all of us, ought to hold dear to, and in, our hearts.
That this subject has to revisited, that these damned Muslims are still attempting the destruction of this most important site and that scarcely anyone sees this as important or relevant makes me want to yell and scream and chuck my dummy out of the pram big-time. If they win here, on the Temple Mount, then they can win anywhere!
Posted by: OliverPCamford at September 5, 2007 12:16 AM
Oliver - thanks so much for digging up and linking those wonderful pieces by Dominic on the archaeology of the Temple Mount and Jerusalem. Really really interesting stuff, from the viewpoint of a professional archaeologist. He knew what he was talking about.
I miss Dominic.
Posted by: dumbledoresarmy at September 5, 2007 4:08 AM
I'm not spurning anyone, dumbledoresarmy. God promised to spew them out of the land if they disobeyed Him. He did it when the Babylonians took the nation captive, but He graciously brought them back for a second chance. They killed the Messiah and got kicked out again. These are facts of Christianity, as much as some don't want to hear them. It gives Christians no right to be proud or to sin in any way against Jews or anyone else. It's just the truth.
The Jewish nation called Israel has a right to exist and to defend itself. The Brits controled Palestine at the time Israel was created, and it was the Brits' right to give the land to anyone it pleased. This doesn't mean that it is a biblical mandate, however. f it were, then God would not have brought them back to the land until they had accepted Christ, and at that point, what would the point be in re-establishing the shadows and types of the OT? Read Hebrews.
I despise the Muslim suicide bombers, Hizbollah, Hamas, etc etc, and am in favor of a wall around Israel to keep them out. I am not an anti-Semite, I am anti-Muslim. It's not racism or bigotry that led me to this position, it was learning proper biblical hermeneutics.
Re: Romans 9-11 - I am not boasting. I am only expositing biblical texts. I agree, there are often more than one interpretation of biblical texts: the one correct one and all others. The view that I hold is historical, the dispy view is about 150 years old and is only embraced by a fraction of Christians.
As for YWHW's everlasting covenant with the Jews -who goes to heaven these days? If you are a Christian, there is only one answer. This does not mean that I despise non-Christians, it means that I see them as objects for evangelization.
As for your provocative question about how I would feel about Iran nuking Jerusalem, I would feel the same way that I would if they nuked Calcutta. It would be a horrible human tragedy that cried for revenge. Because you are not an adriot interpreter of Scripture you must drag in such extraneous nonsense that has nothing to do with whether Israel's existence is the fulfillment of biblical prophecy.
Please read and reread Dt. 28 and tell me that it doesn't mean what it says. The only thing about God that is not infinite is His patience, and his patience ran out in AD 70. Jesus said, "All these things will come upon this generation," in both Matt. 23:36 and 24:34. Read everything in between to see what He meant by "all these things."
Posted by: ChristianRepublic at September 5, 2007 9:57 AM
Dear Oliver,
Thank you for the link. If it not too presumptuous of me to ask, what happened to Dominic.
Posted by: shez at September 5, 2007 9:57 AM
shez -
See http://www.jihadwatch.org/archives/015576.php
Mr. Spencer kindly let us all know there about Dominic's passing.
Posted by: OliverPCamford at September 5, 2007 11:54 PM
shez -
Follow the link and read the comments from Dominic's family and the reply from Mr. Spencer. I broke down into tears after reading them - and I'm not easily moved, believe me.
I've tried to model my style here on Dominic's because he was, for me, a minor hero - he called it as he saw it but he also wasn't afraid to apologise if he was wrong.
He was one of the very few here who could keep up with most of Hugh Fitzgerald's allusions. Sometimes the exchanges between them both were incomprehensible but they seemed to know what they were talking about! I had a crack at following Hugh recently - it's difficult, believe me - and found that I was driven back to reference books and Google for just about every third clause that Hugh wrote - and I suspect that Hugh doesn't have to use either of those stratagems but relies on memory and learning!
Anyway, even in this serious business of challenging the Jihad there must be some fun and some erudition. Hugh provides both if you can keep up with him. Dominic could and I wish that I could, too.
Google Dominic's posts - it's worth it, really.
Posted by: OliverPCamford at September 6, 2007 12:41 AM
Thank you Oliver
From the little that I have already read Dominic's passing is truly a great loss.
Posted by: shez at September 6, 2007 4:20 AM
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