This form of Islam is tantamount to slavery, and slavery is prohibited in most countries; why is this form of Islam tolerated? Anyone espousing this form of Islam should be prohibited from traveling to the West, or deported if already here. Anyone threatening a Moslem for leaving Islam should be immediately jailed (threatening) and later deported (if not a citizen of a Western country).

Last time I looked, this is the 21st century, not the 7th!

Posted by: kenprice at September 13, 2007 1:17 AM

Robert Spencer, on p.149 of Onward Muslim Soldiers, speaking about certain of Muhammad's statements (not ones concerned with apostasy) in the hadiths, wrote:

Muslims who study Hadith give a statement a presumption of authenticity if it appears even once in Bukhari or Muslim;...repetitions and...presence in a third respected Hadith collection make its authenticity virtually certain. The repetitions are attested by different chains of transmission, suggesting that Muhammad said this on numerous occasions, or to many different people, or both.

With that in mind, I present below four hadiths (from two collections considered most reliable by Muslims) in which Muhammad commands death to apostates from Islam:

Bukhari, Volume 4, Book 52, Number 260:

Narrated Ikrima:

Ali burnt some people and this news reached Ibn 'Abbas, who said, "Had I been in his place I would not have burnt them, as the Prophet said, 'Don't punish (anybody) with Allah's Punishment.' No doubt, I would have killed them, for the Prophet said, 'If somebody (a Muslim) discards his religion, kill him.' "

Bukhari, Volume 9, Book 84, Number 57:
Narrated 'Ikrima:

Some Zanadiqa (atheists) were brought to 'Ali and he burnt them. The news of this event, reached Ibn 'Abbas who said, "If I had been in his place, I would not have burnt them, as Allah's Apostle forbade it, saying, 'Do not punish anybody with Allah's punishment (fire).' I would have killed them according to the statement of Allah's Apostle, 'Whoever changed his Islamic religion, then kill him.'"

Bukhari, Volume 9, Book 83, Number 17:
Narrated 'Abdullah:

Allah's Apostle said, "The blood of a Muslim who confesses that none has the right to be worshipped but Allah and that I am His Apostle, cannot be shed except in three cases: In Qisas for murder, a married person who commits illegal sexual intercourse and the one who reverts from Islam (apostate) and leaves the Muslims."

Abu Dawud, Book 39, Number 4487:
Narrated Uthman ibn Affan:

AbuUmamah ibn Sahl said: We were with Uthman when he was besieged in the house. There was an entrance to the house. He who entered it heard the speech of those who were in the Bilat. Uthman then entered it. He came out to us, looking pale.

He said: They are threatening to kill me now. We said: Allah will be sufficient for you against them, Commander of the Faithful! He asked: Why kill me? I heard the Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him) say: It is not lawful to kill a man who is a Muslim except for one of the three reasons: Kufr (disbelief) after accepting Islam, fornication after marriage, or wrongfully killing someone, for which he may be killed.

I swear by Allah, I have not committed fornication before or after the coming of Islam, nor did I ever want another religion for me instead of my religion since Allah gave guidance to me, nor have I killed anyone. So for what reason do you want to kill me?

Posted by: traeh at September 13, 2007 3:11 AM

Maybe I will convert to islum...just to leave the faith...that ought to upset them

Posted by: ooddballz at September 13, 2007 5:45 AM

they claim there is no compulsion in Islam well it seems Muslims have a strange idea about what compulsion is finding someone they can either take the choice of becoming a Muslim or be put to death I would call compulsion if someone said convert or die and then recently there is the Korean missionaries the taliban kidnapped and beat when they were trying to get them to convert to Islam in. To me it would appear that Muslims believe in compulsion but do not consider the actions they take to be compulsion though any normal person who is not a member of the cult would consider the actions of the cult members to be compulsion to force nonmembers to become members of the cult
Kamal pointed out that Islam is a universal religion that realistically recognizes other religions
this is quite true but only as subdued people dhimmi
paying protection to members of the cult this is known as jizha as well as living under a set of humiliating conditions

and allows Muslims to marry non-Muslims
this is true as long as you're a woman marrying a Muslim man he is at work the other way in fact in Saudi Arabia a woman is forbidden by law from marrying a non-Muslim or non Saudi Arabia man
though Saudi men can and do Mary non-Muslim women from other countries

and that it is the only religion that permits this,
well this person does not know anything about other religions almost all other religions do I allow marriage outside their faith is Muslims and Islam in many countries that has a problem with this

Posted by: mowasaperv at September 13, 2007 6:30 AM

Finally, an Islamic law I agree with. There should be a punishment and a law criminalizing all inter-faith marriages.

Posted by: David England at September 13, 2007 6:56 AM

David England,

I think that would be going a bit far, wouldn't it? Many interfaith marriages work out fine, as long as the one of the faiths isn't islam - which is not a faith at all, but a death cult.

Posted by: ImNoDhimmi at September 13, 2007 7:19 AM

OT, but now that the 10th October will be coming up, let's celebrate Charles Martels defeat of the muslims, thereby ensuring the continuation of western civilisation.

First of all, I think that the day should be declared a public holiday. Regardless, it should be celebrated.

Anyone with any ideas?

Posted by: Voltaire at September 13, 2007 8:04 AM

"Kamal pointed out that Islam is a universal religion that realistically recognizes other religions and allows Muslims to marry non-Muslims and that it is the only religion that permits this.."
-- from the article above

The usual confusion and nonsense is offered here.

"Islam is a universal religion" but despite its claims of universalism is a vehicle for Arab supremacism. Muslims are supposed to read -- and if possible memorize -- the Qur'an in Arabic, the language in which the text was given, and "to the best of peoples" the Arabs. Non-Arab Muslims almost always take Muslim names; some -- see Pakistan -- claim to be "sayeeds" or descendants of Muhammad. Five times a day a Muslim, non-Arab or not, must prostrate himself while his body faces Mecca, in Arabia; his model of conduct is a seventh-century Arab, and additional guidance can be found in the manners and customs of other Arabs, his Companions. Yet Islam is a "universal" religion.

Islam "realistically recognizes other religoins."

Meaning what? Of course it recognizes that they exist, and indeed, Islam was constructed out of pagan Arab lore, stories and figures appropriated from both Judaism and Christianity. Its development was prompted by the need for the marauding Arabs, who already had left Arabia (visions of Arabs clutching swords in one hand and Qur'an in the other, as they came out of the Arabian peninsula, are false) and arrived in lands peopled by much more advanced, settled, wealthy Christians and Jews, managed to be given a concocted text, possibly with its origins in a Christian lectionary (see Christoph Luxenberg), a text clearly designed to justify conquest and to promote further conquest.

Of course Islam "recognizes other religions." It is based on a view of the world in which Believers and Infidels (those of those "other relgions" and those who are of no faith at all) are in a state of permanent war, if not necessarily open warfare at every moment. The Qur'an is full of passages about the Christians and the Jews. It bristles with hostility toward them, and those who study the Qur'an, and grasp the meaning of its sometimes difficult-to-penetrate phrasing (not counting the 20% of the Qur'an that no one can quite understand), are well aware of this.

"...allows Muslims to marry non-Muslims and that it is the only religion that permits this.."

Muslims dreamily believe that Islam is the only religion that allows interfaith marriage? Possibly. But notice that even among Muslims, there is a clear misstatement of what Islam allows. Muslims can marry non-Muslims, yes, but what else?

What has been left out? What has been left out is important. A Muslim man may marry a non-Muslim woman, for women are inferior to men in Islam, and such a marriage simply brings in another child-bearer; the children of such a marriage will, of course, be Muslim -- there will be no question about that (see those Muslim men who, after their marriages of convenience, for sex while they are students, or for residence permits of one sort or another, take the children, "their" children, back to Saudi Arabia or Kuwait, leaving the American mother to figure out Islam for herself).

And what of a Muslim woman? She cannot marry a non-Muslim man without more, as the sentence by Kamal clearly suggests. Can she convert to another religion? Don't be silly. It is the non-Muslim male who will have to convert to Islam in order to marry her. And it does happen, to men who apparently do not know just what Islam is all about, or possibly sex-crazed, don't care. But they should care, especially care about any children who will be raised up in this total system that inculcates the habit of mental submission, and stunts mental growth. And even those who are nominally Muslim, but who are aware of what Islam is all about, will in an Infidel society constantly be having to pretend that the texts and tenets of Islam are not what they are, constantly be on edge when feeling called upon to defend the indefensible, or to lie. One wonders, for example, what Fouad Ajami, who sang the praises of Al-Sistani (and see what John Agresto has to say about Al-Sistani in "Mugged by Reality"), thinks of Islam, what he dares to say, what he tells his two sons (both at West Point), in the privacy of the family house, what he thinks about Islam -- and one is not surprised at his inability to discuss Islam, even though his commentaries are becoming increasingly irrelevant because of his very inability to discuss and confront the Matter of Islam.

Posted by: Hugh at September 13, 2007 8:42 AM

The truth is that Islam is a mixed of pagan moon-god worship, proof, is all that bowing down to a cube in Mecca that contains a moon-rock, that is the real allah god and the acceptance of gnostic gospels that were rightly were rejected by traditional Christianity.

Posted by: bigcatgirl13106 at September 13, 2007 9:26 AM

It all comes down to the reality that all this islam is a creation of the devil.

Posted by: bigcatgirl13106 at September 13, 2007 9:28 AM

LGF has a post about apostasy in the Netherlands:

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/europe/article2426314.ece

Eventually, as with other thuggish, fascist belief systems (Fascism, Nazism, Communism), the West will have to come to a decision to succumb or oppose. Most in the West nowadays completely reject these beliefs as incompatible with core Western ideals (well, except for parts of Italy and France). Eventually, I believe, the West will do the same regarding Islam.

(As you can see, I'm an optimist.)

Posted by: Seymour Paine at September 13, 2007 10:28 AM

"Whoever embraces Islam out of his own volition has made a contract with Allah and with the group, therefore he has no right to revoke it, because he embraced Islam after becoming fully convinced and he should bear the responsibility of his decision", said Wasel.

Has made a contract with Allah...therefore he has no right to revoke it. Hmmm, sort of sounds like the contract one makes with the devil when selling ones soul. Interesting.

Where is Daniel Webster when we need him?

Posted by: Isabellathecrusader at September 13, 2007 12:03 PM

"Dr Mohamed Kamal Imam" is dishonest in saying that Islam is the only faith that permits marrying people of other faiths. First, while some other faiths discourage this, interfaith marriage is widely practised and not universally condemned in Christianity or Judaism any more than in Islam the attempt to set Islam apart on this basis is inane and pathetic.

But the real problem with the statement is the kitman it contains: Muslim men are indeed permitted, even encouraged, to marry outside the faith, even multiple times, and through the marriage to exert pressure to convert, to raise all children as muslims, and penalize spouses who won't in many ways for "kufr", such as through inheritance laws (unbelieving relations are automatically disinherited) etc.

The flip-side of this, again following the Islamic understanding that the husband has absolute control over his wives, is an absolute prohibition against muslim women marrying anyone except a muslim. Yes, some do, but against the teachings of all schools of Islam, and usually in the face of terrible repercussions; they are generally considered apostate, even if they continue to practise Islam.

I believe one of the motivations driving muslim immigration to the west is the saturation of international media with images of beautiful western women; many young men in the Islamic world feel they're missing out, and they know that their faith would support them in "capturing" these infidel beauties through romance and marriage -- only to entrap them into Islam.

I see many immigrant muslims where I work and cannot help but remark how the women stay covered and largely separate; they do not mingle, especially with non-muslims except as necessity dictates -- but the muslim men are gregarious, pleasant and mix freely, especially loving to hang around with the "uncovered meat" (non-muslim ladies). They have learned that their exotic manners, appearance and accents are attractive to naive young ladies here, who are curious about their strangeness. A little touch of smooth "old-world manners" and voila! Instant bride(s).

I must say, however, that I like this ex-Mufti "Dr. Nasr Farid Wasel" much better. He is honest, and comes right out with the unvarnished truth. His explanation of Qur'an 2:256 in light of the sword passages is probably the best I have heard, in that it says abrogation is unnecessary.

It is simple logic, as he points out: first, 2:256 is not an imperative, but a simple declaritive: "there is no compulsion in religion", which simply denies that anyone can be forced to believe this or that. It follows that, if one believes something, or changes one's beliefs about something, they carry personal responsibility for that belief, and must accept the consequences of their choice. Ergo, if there is a punishment for apostacy, there is no contradiction in saying that the person who apostacizes should get it -- because nobody has forced them to do so. What could be clearer?

Bravo Dr. Wasel; no dissimulation there...if only the Islamic apologists in the west were as honest.

Posted by: Archimedes2 at September 13, 2007 1:17 PM

Religions that don't allow people to leave are cults. Why are we allowing this dangerous cult to propagate in free countries? Members of Muslim sects who believe this should be kept out of the Free West.

As for intermarriage, Christianity has always allowed this. Read the letters of Paul.

This scholar is also a liar in saying the Islam allows intermarriage. Muslim women are not allowed to marry non-Muslims, chiefly because Christians and Jews make much better husbands, and from what I've read, better lovers too. A woman is different but equal to a man in Christianity and Judaism, this is is why we are better husbands.

Posted by: James Martel at September 13, 2007 1:42 PM

kenprice said: "This form of Islam is tantamount to slavery, and slavery is prohibited in most countries; why is this form of Islam tolerated?"

There is no other form of Islam.

Posted by: Osmund Bindalen at September 13, 2007 2:25 PM

Such ‘non-compulsion’ of religion is tantamount to a non-compulsion mugging. “Your money or your life”, which translates into islamified “your soul or your life”, so choose… without compulsion, of course. Do the shahadah thing, and your soul is theirs.

If you surrender your soul, then you live. But if you try to take it back, then you die an apostate, back to square one. Somehow the intelligence of this is lost on me entirely. How is this ‘non-compulsion’???!!! No wonder the adherents of this insane cult live in a never ending state of rage. They surrendered their souls… and we know WHO wants your soul, don’t we? Sickening cult.

Posted by: Battle_of_Tours at September 13, 2007 2:57 PM

Apropos "Apostasy":

Here's something a "comedienne" said about Jesus. I am not a Christian but enough is enough.

http://newsbusters.org/blogs/ken-shepherd/2007/09/11/kathy-griffin-suck-it-jesus

READ IT ALL:
Kathy Griffin: 'Suck It, Jesus!'
Photo of Ken Shepherd.
By Ken Shepherd | September 11, 2007 - 10:37 ET

At the risk of giving third-rate left-wing comedian Kathy Griffin more than her due of publicity, I thought I'd pass along something I saw over at Brutally Honest. The one-time 'The View' co-host prospect making light of award winners who thank Jesus or thank God for their accomplishment at the podium:

Here's an excerpt from a September 9 blog entry titled "Kathy Griffin speaks to Jesus" (emphasis mine):

Well... sort of:

... the Bravo network's "Kathy Griffin: My Life on the D-List," won the prize for best reality program, prompting one of the more colorful speeches of the night from the star and executive producer.

"A lot of people come up here and thank Jesus for this. He had nothing to do with this," Griffin said. "Suck it, Jesus. This award is my God now."

Nice eh?

I'd like to see Ms. Griffin take on the Muslims with her shock attempts to offend and ask Muhammad to suck it. Takes a little more chutzpah to do that I'm thinking, chutzpah I'd say she possesses not.

End quote

I agree 100% I'd like to see JUST ONE of these asshats to try and say "Suck it, Mahomet".

Oh well.. I gues that's left up to folks like me. And Cair will come and complain that someone named allahfanculo said "suck it, mahomet" when hollywood asshats are free to say 'Suck it Jesus'.

One country - under God.. I am beginning to wonder.
The God we are under is a very forgiving and patient one - unlike the demon alla.

If such a God indeed exists. alla exists in form of a demonic entity. Of that i am convinced by now. Therefore I have to hope that there is indeed a better God who will not let us down in the end.

The demon alla is infecting our POLOticians and our MSM and everything else. I am DISGUSTED!!

Posted by: Allahfanculo at September 13, 2007 3:05 PM

Entirely off topic, just a reminder that Ramalamadingdong has started, as one headline put it, "marred by the earthquake in Indonesia".

So get your wallets out again, you filthy kuffars. Dig deep to send the jizyah to those poor suffering souls. After all, you surely don't expect their Saudi brothers to come to their aid?

Posted by: ImNoDhimmi at September 13, 2007 4:36 PM

The notion that it is a act of faith to kill those who turn away from Islam is a feature that is unique to that faith.

An earlier response mentioned that Islam is cult. I think this is a bit of a of an insult to cults, in that while they shun followers who leave the cult, they don't usually kill them.

I tend to think of Islam as being quite similiar to the Mafia. Once a member of the Costra Nostra, you cannot change your mind and say, "Fellas, I've been thinking about it, and I want to change careers and become an FBI agent."

Even when arrested, you are perceived as a threat to other members, in that you could betray them to the authorities to escape punishment. In the Mafia, your life is forfeit if someone thinks you might betray their secrets to the public.

What is the secret of Islam? Is it that important that exbelieves must be killed to protect it?

Posted by: tanstaafl at September 13, 2007 5:57 PM

One wonders, for example, what Fouad Ajami

[...]

his two sons (both at West Point)

I dunno 'bout you, but I think it's scary that this guy has two sons in West Point. They could 'revert' at anytime. We've seen this before.

I'd hate to have my sons under their command. moslems simply so NOT belong in our militaries and on our police forces.

We might as well just pack it in and hand over the keys..

Posted by: Allahfanculo at September 13, 2007 6:47 PM

Entirely off topic, just a reminder that Ramalamadingdong has started, as one headline put it, "marred by the earthquake in Indonesia".

So get your wallets out again, you filthy kuffars. Dig deep to send the jizyah to those poor suffering souls. After all, you surely don't expect their Saudi brothers to come to their aid?
Posted by: ImNoDhimmi

That was the earthquake I'd been PRAYING for. Not sure if it was due to my prayers but it would be nice to think that i've done my small part to keep the moslems busy amongst themselves.

So before hear how 'evil' it is to wish such disasters on 'innocent' people I'd like to remind you that I saw 9/11 firsthand and I remember seeing moslems all over TV dancing in the streets handing out candy.

So hey.. what goes around...

Not to mention all their other misdeeds.. And since it is not in my power at this time to pay them back in kind I have to PRAY that something will happen for things to even out.

In fact, I just want them AWAY from me and the Western World within which I like to travel and move around in freely.

I pray each and every day for a HUGE disaster in the devil's own Lair which goes by name of meca.

So God.. if You can hear me..

Though I think we are meant to cast off the devil ourselves... we sure could use some help around here. We've been forsaken BY OUR VERY OWN!!!!

Posted by: Allahfanculo at September 13, 2007 6:58 PM

"Kamal pointed out that Islam is a universal religion that realistically recognizes other religions and allows Muslims to marry non-Muslims and that it is the only religion that permits this..."

So George Burns and Gracie Allen weren't married? or Anne Meara & Jerry Stiller? (And PS, Muslim WOMEN can't marry non-Muslim men, buster)

"Whoever embraces Islam out of his own volition has made a contract with Allah and with the group, therefore he has no right to revoke it, because he embraced Islam after becoming fully convinced and he should bear the responsibility of his decision"

Dunno - does "of his own volition" include having guns shoved in your face, or witnessing another hostage being killed, as you are asked to embrace Islam? These Muslim apologists sure stick to their script, even when what they say is totally disconnected from reality. Guess that's how they can think that MORE ISLAM, MORE SHARIA, MORE JIHAD is going to make the world peaceful.

- - - - -

I keep wondering what planet these fellows live on... Whatever they say is inverted, twisted, and just-plain-backassward. You hear Islamic jaw-flappers praising their religion for freedom, tolerance, fairness, morality. Look at Islamic countries, where Mohammed's ideals find full expression, and there's the reality: poverty, slavery, brutality, and corruption. Violence against minorities. Oppression of women. Abuse of children. Repression of ideas. The so-called glory of Islam is right there for all to see. "By its fruit will you know the tree."

Posted by: A_Nonny_Mouse at September 13, 2007 11:12 PM

Killing apostates is the worst form of compulsion that should be outlawed in every society throughout the world.

Dr. Nasr Farid Wasel and his draconian Egyptian "scholars" gained the inspiration to kill Muslim apostates from Muhammad, Islam's madman prophet.

Muhammad's advice to kill former Muslims:

Volume 4, Book 52, Number 260:
Narrated Ikrima:
Ali burnt some people and this news reached Ibn 'Abbas, who said, "Had I been in his place I would not have burnt them, as the Prophet said, 'Don't punish (anybody) with Allah's Punishment.' No doubt, I would have killed them, for the Prophet [Muhammad] said, 'If somebody (a Muslim) discards his religion, kill him.' "

Posted by: Johnathan at September 14, 2007 2:13 AM

..and this is the 20th Century. We have Imams advocating the death penalty for crimes of bielief. Thay have confrances and say this crap with a strait face.

Posted by: Ruebacca at September 14, 2007 9:16 AM

Nonny Mouse, your last paragraph sums it up nicely. But it is not what planet do they live on, we know that, it's more like 'what planet did they come from?...And they are not only 'backward', they are reverse. With normal people, if you eat you____. With Islam they don't ____, they are ____ retentive.
In many ways they remind me of 'Mork' of the 'old Mork and Mindy show where Mork, the alien, does everything backwards. Of course Mork was lovable and not hostile. If only we could teach the hostiles to shoot backwards...

Posted by: duh_swami at September 14, 2007 11:38 AM

mowasaperv-

You are failing to understand the subtle thinking in the Islamic statement:

"There is no compulsion to religion".

You are first asked by a Mohammedan to peacefully "covert" to Islam (no compulsion there), and, if you refuse that, to peacefully "submit to second class serf status and pay the Mo protection money" (no compulsion to convert, there), or, if you say no to both conditions, then you are compelled to violently fight, and possibly die, for your faith.

In all three of these choices, there is no compulsion to "religion", per se.

You can either peacefully convert, or peacefully retain your "religion" (with a compulsion to taxation, not conversion).

And, in the third there is a challenge of war against your belief system. But, again, not a compulsion to "convert", technically.

And, if you defeat the Muslim militants, you are free to retain you religion (or your disbelief, or whatever spiritual thought process you prefer).

So, actually, Islam is merely a method bolstering our own belief in our own faith (or skepticism, etc.) by this mortal challenge.

If we are as serious as they are, and more intelligent (producing better scientific systems that result in better weaponry, tactics, etc.) we will defeat them.

And, ultimately, they do use a favor by sharpening our wits and concentrating our intelligence and gathering our strength by having it fight off such a threat.

The compulsion is to survival.

May we meet it.

Posted by: profitsbeard at September 14, 2007 11:56 AM

The U.S. Senators that I have spoken to always confirm the Egypt is our friend.

Well, here's to friends that take your money, want to kill you and your true friends, and lie to you.

I matured enough to quit having friends like that after college. Stop contributing to the lie.

Posted by: alaskan1000 at September 14, 2007 12:39 PM

James Martel:

Pope John Paul II wrote a letter of warning to Catholic women about marrying Muslim men, delineating the dangers and degredations that Muslim women experience.

Posted by: atheling at September 14, 2007 3:23 PM