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Islamic Tolerance alert.
By Jamie Doward in The Observer:
One of the Church of England's most senior bishops is warning that people will die unless Muslim leaders in Britain speak out in defence of the right to change faith.Michael Nazir-Ali, the Bishop of Rochester, whose father converted from Islam to Christianity in Pakistan, says he is looking to Muslim leaders in Britain to 'uphold basic civil liberties, including the right for people to believe what they wish to believe and to even change their beliefs if they wish to do so'.
Some Islamic texts brand Muslims who convert to other faiths as 'apostates' and call for them to be punished. Seven of the world's 57 Islamic states - including Iran - impose the death penalty for conversion.
Some Islamic texts? You mean like the pre-eminent collection of authoritative hadiths, Sahih Al-Bukhari, quoting Muhammad himself?
Volume 9, Book 84, Number 57: Narrated 'Ikrima:
Some Zanadiqa (atheists) were brought to 'Ali and he burnt them. The news of this event, reached Ibn 'Abbas who said, "If I had been in his place, I would not have burnt them, as Allah's Apostle forbade it, saying, 'Do not punish anybody with Allah's punishment (fire).' I would have killed them according to the statement of Allah's Apostle, 'Whoever changed his Islamic religion, then kill him.'"
Where do those extremists get their ideas!
Now Ali, who some see as a potential Archbishop of Canterbury, has told Channel 4's Dispatches programme of his fears about the safety of the estimated 3,000 Muslims who have converted to other faiths in Britain.'It is very common in the world today, including in this country, for people who have changed their faith, particularly from being Muslim to being Christian, to be ostracised, to lose their job, for their marriages to be dissolved, for children to be taken away,' Ali said. 'And this is why some leadership is necessary from Muslim leaders themselves to say that this is not what Islam teaches.'
I think we may just have hit a snag here, Your Grace. Of course, I guess they could say that "this is not what Islam teaches" even while it does.
Dispatches obtained Islamic texts sold in Britain that say the punishment for apostasy is death - according to all four schools of Islamic jurisprudence. One text called for Muslims to cut off the head of those who reject Islam.
Of course, rigorously logical thought has not exactly been one of the outstanding characteristics of the C of E of late.
The radical Islamist group Hizb ut-Tahrir, which some in Britain want to see banned, states in its constitution that in countries that practise Sharia law, apostates are to be executed. Its message is disseminated on university campuses across Britain and has found a following among a minority of young Muslims.A poll of more than 1,000 British Muslims, conducted by the Policy Exchange think-tank this year, found that 36 per cent of Muslims aged between 16 and 24 believe those who convert to another faith should be punished by death.
Only 36 percent?
Sheikh Mogra, a senior member of the Muslim Council for Britain, told Dispatches: 'We live in a country where we respect people's choices. It is not right for any British Muslim to harm in any way whatsoever; to bully them, to intimidate them, to threaten them, is all against Muslim law.'
So, as noted, "the punishment for apostasy is death - according to all four schools of Islamic jurisprudence," a teaching given by Muhammad himself -- so how do we make sense of this last quote? Well, it's obviously wrong, but that's not something it seems the Observer -- or anybody else in the dhimmi press -- wants to get into.
Posted by Greg at September 16, 2007 1:11 AM
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if you would like a good laugh take a look at the
following link
http://www.central-mosque.com/biographies/nadwa14.htm
as well take a look at an explanation about Mary they claim she was a good Muslim woman only one problem the cult of Islam had not been dreamed up by their mentally ill epileptic profit Mohammed
when she was alive some 700 years before Mohamed
to be honest I have never seen such a pack of lies and revisions of history on one website before as I did on the central mosque website
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at September 16, 2007 2:12 AM
A few lines into this central mosque piece is the following: "The rejuvenating currents of islam ran through the world, infusing men everywhere with a new life and an unparalleled enthusiasm for progress." I didn't bother reading any further.
Posted by: grobari at September 16, 2007 3:04 AM
Sheikh Mogra, a senior member of the Muslim Council for Britain, told Dispatches: 'We live in a country where we respect people's choices.
What he meant to say, but likely and rightly suspected would not go over well:
'We live in a country where we must pretend to respect people's choices.
The article's last paragraph makes that clear--though apparently not to Jamie Doward or his editor:
One convert interviewed for the programme told how his local Muslim community in Bradford closed ranks against him after he switched to Christianity. 'They told me categorically had I been in an Islamic country - Pakistan, Middle East - that they would actually be the first to chop off my head,' he said.
Posted by: PRCS at September 16, 2007 3:48 AM
++Nazir-Ali is one of the few who speaks with a voice of clarity amongst the CofE bishops
When referring to what Islam teaches, I suspect he is trying to be a bit diplomatic here; he has also described elsewhere how he has noted the change in Islam over the last 30 years towards a more conservative interpretation vis a vis the Sufi inspired teaching he grew up with (can't find the link just now).
But yeah, whatever he said got watered down further in the rest of the piece.
You might enjoy this preacher's 'clarity' (even if I would have doubts about bits of his theology...). Heh.
Posted by: saint at September 16, 2007 4:24 AM
Actually, I think DW has missed the point here, which is not about whatever the The Observer, the Bishop, and Channel 4 have failed to understand, but what they have understood.
This is the Soft Left speaking here, so this is worthy of note, not because it is done badly but because it is done at all.
And it was the Dispatches team which did the 'Undercover Mosque' show, so i am going to stick my neck out and say that 'Unholy War' on Channel 4 at 8pm tomorrow will probably be worth watching.
at September 16, 2007 5:11 AM
mowasaperv,
This does not suprise me because what you have posted because the Muslims will accuse Christians of putting words into Jesus's mouth, when what was spoken in the Gospels is all based on eyewitness accounts of what Jesus had said, saying that Christians are polytheists, ete., .
Posted by: bigcatgirl13106 at September 16, 2007 6:36 AM
I wonder if the West Midlands police will investigate Channel 4 for inciting racial hatred for daring to talk about this?
Posted by: Celsius at September 16, 2007 7:04 AM
When I first read this, I felt disgusted that this would be an issue in Britain but then I remembered how, hundreds of years ago, a huge wave of Japanese immigrants brought the great and noble Samurai culture to Great Britain.
The ignorant indigenous citizens had to be trained to be sensitive to the Samurai culture. Newspaper articles instructed the non-Japanese in its key tenets. Japanese words such as bushido, daimyo and seppuku became part of the British lexicon. Anything that hinted at Samuraiphobia was outlawed. The government encouraged the acculturation of Samurai warriors by funding and building new Samurai outreach centres, training Samurai leaders, offering free English classes and holding town meetings to emphasize commonalities and encourage dialogue. Native Brits gradually grew accustomed the "new normal" of the times, which included seeing their neighbours beheaded for dishonouring anything Japanese. (Think "Shogun" on British soil.)
And what about when all of those Scottish people came to Canada and forced everyone to wear kilts, eat nothing but haggis and burn only peat moss for heat? That took a wee bit of adjustment but, once they agreed to let us wear coats and leggings in the wintertime, it wasn't so bad. Sure, it's monotonous that the CBC only plays bagpipe music and quotes Robbie Burns 24/7, but it's a small price to pay for peace, right?
Posted by: Josephine at September 16, 2007 9:42 AM
[-]
A poll of more than 1,000 British Muslims, conducted by the Policy Exchange think-tank this year, found that 36 per cent of Muslims aged between 16 and 24 believe those who convert to another faith should be punished by death.
Sheikh Mogra, a senior member of the Muslim Council for Britain, told Dispatches: 'We live in a country where we respect people's choices. It is not right for any British Muslim to harm in any way whatsoever; to bully them, to intimidate them, to threaten them, is all against Muslim law.'
One convert interviewed for the programme told how his local Muslim community in Bradford closed ranks against him after he switched to Christianity. 'They told me categorically had I been in an Islamic country - Pakistan, Middle East - that they would actually be the first to chop off my head,' he said.
· 'Dispatches: Unholy War' will be on Channel 4 at 8pm tomorrow.
[-]
Could someone tape the Dispatches program and post it?
Posted by: Borg at September 16, 2007 10:08 AM
LOL grobari--that's exactly where I stopped reading, too!
Posted by: Abscedere at September 16, 2007 10:31 AM
What is this guy a moron or some kind of clown?
Basic human rights are a christian creation .
1076. Ibn `Umar (May Allah be pleased with them) reported: The Messenger of Allah (PBUH) said, "I have been commanded to fight against the people till they testify La ilaha illAllah (There is no true god except Allah) and that Muhammad (PBUH) is His slave and Messenger, and to establish As-Salat (Iqamat-as-Salat), and to pay Zakat; and if they do this, then their blood and property are secured except by the rights of Islam, and their accountability is left to Allah.''
[Al-Bukhari and Muslim].
at September 16, 2007 11:04 AM
Isn't it quite clear that all Muslims, in principle, and in fact, worship a religion of murder and revenge? This indisputable fact should be foremost in our hearts and minds! Why isn't it? Why is there no one but me who will say that all the religions that teach that the Koran is a perfect book from God that always tells the complete truth which cannot be challenged, are religions of cold-blooded murder and mindless revenge? This evil religion is unfixable unless great amounts the pages of the Koran are ripped out and destroyed completely and forever! Short of this, why is it that no one will admit that the Koran and all its faithful followers are evil and rotten to the core? Why? Is it because we love to be RELIGIOUSLY CORRECT more than to live in the sanity of clear truth?
Posted by: tom at September 16, 2007 2:47 PM
Religions where you are not allowed to leave are CULTS! Islamic sects which teach the killing of leavers should be illegal and their members expelled.
Posted by: James Martel at September 16, 2007 6:04 PM
Posted by: tom : This evil religion is unfixable unless great amounts the pages of the Koran are ripped out and destroyed completely and forever!
As the koran cannot be changed worldwide - it is impossible, it leaves with no choice but we stop all Muslim immigration to the UK, and then reverse it.
There is no hope for the UK or the West for that matter, considering the internal demographic growth rate of Muslims, unless hard decisions are made now. We, or our politicians are condemining the future generation to an unceasing civil war. That is what the benighted policies of the political elite has brought us to, for which they never had any allowance from the public that they were supposed to represent.
Posted by: DP111 at September 16, 2007 6:26 PM
"Isn't it quite clear that all Muslims, in principle, and in fact, worship a religion of murder and revenge?" Posted by: tom
Tom, many Christians have gone to church on Sundays for their entire lives and have not read the Bible from cover to cover. The minister or priest reads selected passages from the Bible and preaches a sermon: that's all the Bible learning many Christians have and that's all they want.
Many Muslims have grown up the same way. Their perception of Islam depends on what their preacher tells them in the mosque on Fridays. Don't many Muslims learn to recite the Koran in Arabic? What good does that do them if they don't actually speak Arabic?
There have been many Muslims who grew up hearing about the kinder, gentler passages in the Koran and who believe that is the essence of Islam.
My understanding is that fundamentalist Islam has been heavily promoted, funded by Saudi oil money, in the past 30 years or so and this is why more and more Muslims are being taught, and are following, the radical aspects of the religion/ideology.
You would think that, with all of the terrorism and radicalization going on in recent years, more Muslims would pick up a Koran in their own language, read it for themselves and figure it out. Maybe they think they don't have to. Maybe they really believe that the fundamentalists are the ones who've misunderstood the Koran. (If so, they are mistaking their ignorance for knowledge, to our detriment.) Perhaps many Muslims are reading the entire Koran and the other Islamic texts; I hope they will be troubled enough by the violent, hateful passages to do some soul-searching and learn more.
I agree that Islam is, at its core, a religion of murder, revenge and Arabic supremacy. (It's revealed in the Koran and other Islamic texts and in the lives and deaths of the fundamentalists.)
However, I don't believe that every Muslim worships or follows these aspects of Islam.
Posted by: Josephine at September 16, 2007 8:28 PM
Josephine, yes you are correct, very perceptive of you, as a matter of fact, only about half of them really understand and support the mandated murder and revenge commandments - so far so good. Now, if only the other half would only try, even a little bit, to protect us from half that really take their Koran seriously!
Posted by: tom at September 16, 2007 11:08 PM
Seven of the world's 57 Islamic states - including Iran - impose the death penalty for conversion.
Anyone have answers (with evidence) to two questions?:
1. Which seven states? (Iran is one.)
2. What happens to converts in the other fifty Muslim states?
at September 17, 2007 1:08 AM
Below I quote an excerpt (from this article) containing part of an answer to my above two questions. Unfortunately, the author's counting skills seem to have abandoned him here, but it's a start:
At least 7 Islamic countries apply the death penalty to those who convert from Islam: Sudan, Iran, Saudi Arabia, Nigeria, Pakistan, Mauritania. But in other states, like Egypt, converts are condemned to prison, not as apostates but for contempt of Islam, as Hossam Bahgat, a member of the Egyptian Initiative for personal rights, explains.Posted by: traeh
at September 17, 2007 1:33 AM
traeh -- Thank you.
Posted by: Josephine at September 17, 2007 6:32 AM
"Now, if only the other half would only try, even a little bit, to protect us from half that really take their Koran seriously!" Posted by: tom
Unfortunately, we can't count on that happening. This is truly disappointing (and worse).
Posted by: Josephine at September 17, 2007 6:34 AM
Same message I am hearing..be afraid of islam..mohammed! Not Christ Jesus! People are blasphamy him! !!!!
Posted by: MZ at September 17, 2007 6:06 PM
http://www.motionbox.com/video/player/ec94d5b51c19e761#1
Posted by: kasper1062 at September 18, 2007 2:44 AM
That was a good video kasper1062./
God has called us to be 'holy' because He is "Holy" 1 Peter:13-16). We have a duty to be like Jesus in every way, and holiness can truly be seen as the summary of all Jesus' words and actions. He was the Holy One of Israel.
It is my belief that without a true understanding of the nature of holiness and a consistent application of that standard by Christians, civilization, as we know it, doesn't stand a chance of surviving (Matthew 5:13).
It is said the journey of a thousand miles begins with the first step; so it is with our pursuit of holiness.
1. Humility
2. Purity
3. Integrity
4. Forgiveness
5. LOVE
if we are going to be able to follow Jesus Christ.. if we are going to be a Christian at all, it can only be done by the power of the Holy Spirit.
1. Humility; 1st roadsign Matthew 18:4. humility is right and honest thinking about ourselves. It is God that worketh in you, both to will and to do His good pleasure, and without Him you can do nothing.
2 Purity; If we are to belong to Christ and to Christ alone, we must seek purity for our lifes. Impurity in the heart can make us as much of a traitor to Christ as Judas ever was. Purity is comprised of two attitudes toward sin; one of ignorance and one of hatred. These elements are needed to attain purity. We must strive not only to be ignorant of sin, but also to hate sin with a holy hatred (Romans 12:9). Christianity not only allows for hatred--Christianity commands it, in much the same way as true wisdom involves ignorance of evil. A wisdom which is from above is a wisdom which is ignorant of evil and is pure and chaste James 3:17.
Likewise, true love necessitates true hatred. The greatest hater is God! We often fail to realize that God is God of wrath-a God who hates sin with an infinite and perfect hatred. He is a God ablaze with Love, but he is ablaze with a holy wrath as well Hebrews 12:28,29.
Therefore, if we are to belike God in relation to sin, we must hate evil. We must hate evil which is causing so much pain and suffering in God's world. Only when we hate evil within us and fight against it in the power of the Holy Spirit, do we have the right to strike our at the evil which is in the world around us Matthrew 7:1-6. We need to see sin for the pernicious, devilish and destructive evil that it really is. We need to have a holy fear of sin which, by the work of the Holy Spirit, will develop into a holy hatred. God hates all evil. If we truly love God in the way we should, we must hate evil.
3. Integrity; is devotion to the truth in its wholeness - or entirety - without compromise, corruption or pollution. Everything we are and everything we do depends upon this commitment to God's truth.
If truth is sacrificed, integrity dies and hypocrisy flourishes. According to Christ, hypocrisy is the worst fo all sins Matthew 23.
We must not lower the standard of God's Word to fit our traditions or customs.
4. Forgiveness; The Bible says. "forgiving one another.." not simply, "forgiving others." It is a turn and turn again, a mutual cooperative venture. Not only do we need to forgive, but we need also to receive forgiveness. I forgive you and you forgive me; we'll forgive them and they will forgive us, and so on, and so on. To say we can be saved by grace while maintaining an unforgiving spirit is not to talk about grace, but to bring disgrace to the mercy of God. Part of repentence involves a new heart attitude towards others, ourselves, and God. This new attitude will be one of forgiveness and grace towards others because of the grace of God has shown us Matthew 5:38-42 Ephesians 4:32
5. LOVE; This signpost is that of Love. Love is the most vital of all the virtues for a successful Christian life. Without it, we fail to have any true virtue at all and our efforts to please God are a complete failure 1 Corinthians 13. To love God and man is the fulfillment of all our moral duty as human beings. Such love truly cares for others. God wants the river of His love to flow right into our hearts - that river that flows from the Cross of Jesus Christ. The Cross is the source of love for each of us. We will never see the Christian social agenda become expressed in our nation's laws until we, ourselves, are a holy people. -
at September 18, 2007 7:48 AM
That was a good video kasper1062./
God has called us to be 'holy' because He is "Holy" 1 Peter:13-16). We have a duty to be like Jesus in every way, and holiness can truly be seen as the summary of all Jesus' words and actions. He was the Holy One of Israel.
It is my belief that without a true understanding of the nature of holiness and a consistent application of that standard by Christians, civilization, as we know it, doesn't stand a chance of surviving (Matthew 5:13).
It is said the journey of a thousand miles begins with the first step; so it is with our pursuit of holiness.
1. Humility
2. Purity
3. Integrity
4. Forgiveness
5. LOVE
if we are going to be able to follow Jesus Christ.. if we are going to be a Christian at all, it can only be done by the power of the Holy Spirit.
1. Humility; 1st roadsign Matthew 18:4. humility is right and honest thinking about ourselves. It is God that worketh in you, both to will and to do His good pleasure, and without Him you can do nothing.
2 Purity; If we are to belong to Christ and to Christ alone, we must seek purity for our lifes. Impurity in the heart can make us as much of a traitor to Christ as Judas ever was. Purity is comprised of two attitudes toward sin; one of ignorance and one of hatred. These elements are needed to attain purity. We must strive not only to be ignorant of sin, but also to hate sin with a holy hatred (Romans 12:9). Christianity not only allows for hatred--Christianity commands it, in much the same way as true wisdom involves ignorance of evil. A wisdom which is from above is a wisdom which is ignorant of evil and is pure and chaste James 3:17.
Likewise, true love necessitates true hatred. The greatest hater is God! We often fail to realize that God is God of wrath-a God who hates sin with an infinite and perfect hatred. He is a God ablaze with Love, but he is ablaze with a holy wrath as well Hebrews 12:28,29.
Therefore, if we are to belike God in relation to sin, we must hate evil. We must hate evil which is causing so much pain and suffering in God's world. Only when we hate evil within us and fight against it in the power of the Holy Spirit, do we have the right to strike our at the evil which is in the world around us Matthrew 7:1-6. We need to see sin for the pernicious, devilish and destructive evil that it really is. We need to have a holy fear of sin which, by the work of the Holy Spirit, will develop into a holy hatred. God hates all evil. If we truly love God in the way we should, we must hate evil.
3. Integrity; is devotion to the truth in its wholeness - or entrety - without compromise, corruption or pollution. Everything we are and everything we do depends upon this commitment to God's truth.
If truth is sacrificed, integrity dies and hypocrisy flourishes. According to Christ, hypocrisy is the worst of all sins Matthew 23.
We must not lower the standard of God's Word to fit our traditions or customs.
4. Forgiveness; The Bible says. "forgiving one another.." not simply, "forgiving others." It is a turn and turn again, a mutual cooperative venture. Not only do we need to forgive, but we need also to receive forgiveness. I forgive you and you forgive me; we'll forgive them and they will forgive us, and so on, and so on. To say we can be saved by grace while maintaining an unforgiving spirit is not to talk about grace, but to bring disgrace to the mercy of God. Part of repentence involves a new heart attitude towards others, ourselves, and God. This new attitude will be one of forgiveness and grace towards others because of the grace of God has shown us Matthew 5:38-42 Ephesians 4:32
5. LOVE; This signpost is that of Love. Love is the most vital of all the virtues for a successful Christian life. Without it, we fail to have any true virtue at all and our efforts to please God are a complete failure 1 Corinthians 13. To love God and man is the fulfillment of all our moral duty as human beings. Such love truly cares for others. God wants the river of His love to flow right into our hearts - that river that flows from the Cross of Jesus Christ. The Cross is the source of love for each of us. We will never see the Christian social agenda become expressed in our nation's laws until we, ourselves, are a holy people. -
at September 18, 2007 7:49 AM
thanks to kasper for the link to the C4 prog:
http://www.motionbox.com/video/player/ec94d5b51c19e761#1
i had been trying to find it on youtube but could not do so.
a pretty good show, i thought.
at September 18, 2007 4:31 PM
so who else watched this program, apart from kasper, MZ and me ?
Posted by: M Al-Content at September 19, 2007 4:49 PM
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