I guess we give Norway aid?

Posted by: KAOSKTRL at September 25, 2007 8:42 PM

As Michael Savage says "liberalism is a mental illness". Here's another example of it.

Posted by: Jihadtobejoking at September 25, 2007 9:13 PM

Lemings.

Posted by: atheling at September 25, 2007 9:13 PM

"Government Minister Erik Solheim said the aid was aimed at promoting dialogue and religious tolerance."
-- from the article above

I see that Robert cannot bring himself to devote more than a sentence to this appalling story. At times the best thing to do is simply to put the thing up, and shake your head, and let others do so as well.

What, after all, can one, at this point, say?

Posted by: Hugh at September 25, 2007 9:22 PM

the population of norway is 4 million. 20% are immigrants. there are over 200 000 muslims.

i recently visited norway, oslo. i will never go back. the socialist norweigans love the fact that they are literally giving their nation away, it makes them feel proud. i met a lot of hostility once they found out that i'm new US citizen. "why?" was their favourite question. "so i can buy a gun" was my reply.

they hated that one!

Posted by: leonthepigfarmer at September 25, 2007 9:23 PM

Hugh

Sometimes I wish I had an automatic function key on my PC. It's purpose would be to post one or two different words for each thread.

"Unbelievable" would suffice on almost everything I have read.

"Heaven help us" would be my next choice.

Posted by: Gramfan at September 25, 2007 9:30 PM

This is from Norway also.

Taxi drivers linked to gangs.

http://www.aftenposten.no/english/local/article1998607.ece

And surprise, they are Pakistani, also linked to welfare fraud, etc.

Posted by: Borg at September 25, 2007 9:41 PM

Greetings in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.

As a reaction to this story, I quote those of Norwegian ancestry in my part of the country: Uff da!

Posted by: Stand fast in the liberty at September 25, 2007 10:06 PM

Borg

the norweigans dont take this seriously.

they raise their eye brows, smile and wave their hands as if to say, "oh, we know but hey it's life".

in 20 years time, that 20% population will have risen to 80%. the norweigans will be shaking their heads still, and saying "oh, we are so multicultural, we are so PC".

meanwhile i will have to give my brother and his family refugee status into the USA because of their stupidity.

anyone want to see extreme socialism in action, go to oslo.

Posted by: leonthepigfarmer at September 25, 2007 10:24 PM

This story is hardly unbelievable. If any madrassa in the world begged for money from a Western country, do you actually think there would be one government that did NOT capitulate. One? I'm shocked that Norway hasn't offered to move all the madrassas right to Oslo directly.

Posted by: satrap at September 25, 2007 10:46 PM

This story is hardly unbelievable. If any madrassa in the world begged for money from a Western country, do you actually think there would be one government that did NOT capitulate. One? I'm shocked that Norway hasn't offered to move all the madrassas right to Oslo directly.

Posted by: satrap at September 25, 2007 10:46 PM

unbelievable. europe will reap what it sows. and so will the rest of us.

Posted by: alexon at September 25, 2007 10:57 PM

The hand that rocks the cradle rules the world. An important reason behind the recent decline of the West, and its gradual surrender to burgeoning Muslim populations, is the low birth rate and aging native population. This in turn leads to liberal policies on immigration coming from countries with high birth rates. In the vicinity of Europe, the countries containing booming populations clamoring to immigrate (whether to find jobs, go on welfare, or take advantage of civil liberties absent in their country of origin) are Islamic.
People raised to avoid confrontation have a disinclination to face unpleasant realities. It is easier to imagine things are as one wishes they should be, rather than to see things as they really are. One can avoid unpleasant trends in regard to the demographic problems in Europe if one does not look closely at the problems stemming from the immigration, or if one does not admit that the changes taking place are a problem. Wanting to get along, the Norwegians (and so many others in other countries) apparently are hoping that if they are nice to their new neighbors, their new neighbors will adopt their mores and values. This generous "lets-all-get-along" attitude carries over into the desire to give, not only domestic assistance, but also foreign aid, to assist Muslims, who are seen as only superficially different from Christians.
"Perhaps if we deceive ourselves, everything will be okay for awhile." If only life were that simple.

Posted by: Karl at September 26, 2007 1:00 AM

I would be willing to bet that the madressas were built by USAID.

USAID is building mosques and madressas in Indonesia courtesy of the US taxpayer, and probably everywhere.

I have difficulty deciding whether the U.S. State Department (including USAID) is a greater enemy of the nation than OBL. They are surely aiding and abetting our number one enemy. 10,000 Saudi students admitted with no checks this year, thanks to State's Esposito/Armstrong/Hughes cadre of dhimmis.

But that pales compared to the some 29000 OTMs who jumped the southern border the past year.

We watch and pity Europe and what is happening to them. Meanwhile between the State, Treasury, and Homeland Security Departments we are rapidly moving to the same pitiable state of Muslim infiltration and control of the government and our economy as is happening in Britain, Sweden, Norway, Holland, etc. Europe had better pray that Zarcozzi is a new Charles Martell; no one else seems to be up to it.

And where is our Charles Martell?

Posted by: Jimmy Bones at September 26, 2007 2:09 AM

The same thing is happening in the UK.

"Mr Blair, on a visit to Pakistan yesterday to discuss anti-terror policy with President Pervez Musharraf, more than doubled assistance to the country from £236 million over the next three years to £480 million.

The extra money will go mainly towards encouraging moderate Muslim education in the network of Madrassa religious schools, which are blamed for turning many young people to extremism."

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2006/11/20/nterr20.xml

Posted by: Celsius at September 26, 2007 2:56 AM

Leon, let's not go bonkers yet: the immigrant population (first generation or born in Norway of two foreign-born parents) in Norway is 8,9 %, or 415,000 people. Half of these are Swedes, Danes, Poles, Germans, Russians and so forth; the rest (230.000) are from Asia, South America and Africa. Out of these, most are from Vietnam, Sri Lanka, Chile and other conspicuously non-muslim countries; of muslim populations, the most numerous are the Pakistanis (30,000 of Pakistani origin), Irakis (20,000+, mostly Kurds but quite a few christian Irakis), Bosnians (15,000), Iranians (15,000) and Turks (15,000, but again, many of these are Kurds).

Altogether there are perhaps around 100,000-150,000 muslims in Norway (for simplicity's sake, 100,000 out of 4 mill equals 2,5%). Many of these, for instance Bosnians, Turks and Iranians, are so thoroughly integrated that they hardly figure at all as major immigrant "blocs"; only the Somalis and Pakistanis (and perhaps the Kurds) are very conspicuous in society, but mostly in and around Oslo.

It's true that there are problematic issues, notably arranged (ie. forced) marriages, female genital mutilation, organized crime and a smattering of jihadi sympathizers (but no mujahid of Norwegian citizenship has yet been identified in the field, as far as I know) amongst some of these groups, but Norwegians have long since woken up from their rustic naivite that allowed these issues to flourish in the first place.

Furthermore, the numbers involved in any of these issues are ridiculously small (from a few dozen to a few hundred). There are continuous and very noisy debates on forced marriages and fgm, many of the worst criminals are behind bars or under investigation (the problem of organized crime is also associated with various former Yugoslav, Russian, Polish, Tamil, Vietnamese and other groups), the security services are closely watching radicals (so much so that "moderates" are complaining that they are being hounded by the government), and Norwegian special forces are serving with distinction in Afghanistan.

So, notwithstanding the utter silliness of giving money to pakistani madrasas (a measure that will probably be allowed to die a silent death on next year's budget, given recent media coverage and popular reactions), Norwegians are not at all capitulating to jihad or giving themselves over to dimmitude. It's just another ridiculous attempt to play moral superpower by a handful of dimwitted socialists in the government, and has been recognized as that by most simple folk here...

Posted by: FulmenSeptentrionalis at September 26, 2007 4:12 AM

By the way, Leon,

there are more guns per capita in Norway than in the US;-)...

Posted by: FulmenSeptentrionalis at September 26, 2007 4:21 AM

"Norway could wind up even supporting jihadists, those encouraging holy war."

I can't see these few bucks making any substantial difference: All Western countries have for years been supporting jihad in far more efficient manners and, alas, continue to do so. We now have sufficient information provided by media and intelligence to conclude that a clear majority of mosques in Europe are jihad indoctrination factories (and I'd be surprised if the situation in the US were rosy). By hosting our enemy on our soil and givng him the protecion of our laws, we cause far more harm than the madrassa could possibly do with one million US dollars.

Posted by: otranto at September 26, 2007 4:21 AM

Regarding the number of muslims in Norway, it is probably closer to 200.000, if not slightly above.

There are no official statistics on people's religious devotions, so these estimates are made counting people with roots in mainly muslim states, and in Norway the definition of immigrant population limits the second generation to people with two foreign-born parents. For this purpose, however, the definition is not adequate.

Consider, say, the Pakistanis who settled in Norway during the 1970s at already adult age: Practically all of these became Norwegian citizens after a few years, although most of them married compatriots. Their children were thus born in Norway with a Norwegian citizenship, but are for all practical purposes Pakistani. Now these children born in the seventies, who import spouses in even larger numbers than their parents and are more devotedly islamic than their parents, are themselves in child-bearing age. This third generation now counts as perfectly Norwegian and no longer contributes to the total estimated number of muslims, making the statistics look less frightening.

Posted by: otranto at September 26, 2007 4:51 AM

Yup, you're right that estimating the number of religious adherents is tricky, but I was mostly reacting to the inflated estimates above of 20% of the population being of immigrant origins (24% in Oslo, but barely visable elsewhere in the country). Furthermore, there are some good statistics on religious adherence. The number of muslims belonging to registered religious communities (which are thus entitled to government support) is 72,023 for 2006.

http://www.ssb.no/emner/07/02/10/trosamf/tab-2006-12-18-01.html

(the percentages apply only to people in registered religious communities outside the state church)

Now of course there are plenty of believers that do not belong to any of the registered communities (and those are probably the ones to be really concerned about, and whom the government are actively monitoring), but since the government gives money according to membership numbers, I think this is a better indication of the number of more-or-less committed believers. Many others that come from muslim countries are, as I said, thoroughly secular (think of Iranian exiles, secular Turks, Bosnian refugees and so on), and I know very many such people. Bikini-sporting Turks, hard-partying or Beyonce-digging Bosnians, and islamophobic Iranians hardly seem to be the people to be most concerned with.

And sure, the government method of counting "immigrants" might be suspect, but the issue that Otranto raised above only applies to Pakistanis so far. Most other groups, such as Irakis, Somalis, Bosnians and others only began to arrive in earnest during the 1990s. As most others here I am concerned with the consequences of unlimited immigration, but just pause a second to consider that a huge number actually join in and enjoy the western way of life. That's actually a good thing.

Posted by: FulmenSeptentrionalis at September 26, 2007 5:50 AM

«[T]he issue that Otranto raised above only applies to Pakistanis so far.»

I believe it applies also to immigrants from Morocco and Turkey. (And not too many years down the road very likely also to Iraqis, Somalis...).

Posted by: otranto at September 26, 2007 6:01 AM

I dont get it.I thought the Euros were pro-secular.

Posted by: Elric66 at September 26, 2007 6:29 AM

Thanks for the reminder Otranto, but I haven't found any numbers on them, so I'm not to say for sure. Yet I haven't even heard of Moroccan immigration or immigrants in the media for a long time, and those I've met or heard of are often married to (ethnic) Norwegians. (One very distant Moroccan relation sang Sinatra, I did it my way, at an old aunt's birthday...) But of course, these are only personal impressions.

Yet there's another point here. Barring ghettoization, living somewhere for three generations tends to have an impact, to put it mildly. Just think of Shabana Rehman (http://www.shabana.no/), one of the most courageous and irreverent second (or third?) generation Pakistani Norwegians. A recent documentary (can't remember the name) about Pakistanis born in Norway visiting their "homeland" was both sad and hilarious. Sad for the old folks, working like dogs and saving and building houses in Pakistan and hoping to move home with their children, only to realize that their children had absolutely no attachment to Pakistan or understanding of their dreams - they'd become, in effect, Norwegian...

So that bring us to another issue. If you could prevent people from bringing in spouses from abroad through arranged marriages, something that is being debated but unfortunately not acted upon efficiently - yet - in Norway (but has in Denmark), I think assimilation will do the trick, especially in such a small country with small immigrant populations as Norway. What to do in, say, Birmingham, Paris or Malmö is a whole different can of worms, but my point is that Norway is still far from that...

Posted by: FulmenSeptentrionalis at September 26, 2007 6:32 AM

Norwegians aren't Euros, they're comfortable outside the EU tucked inside their fjords and mountains with their fish and oil.

Sure they're secular(ish), but bizarrely enough, the socialists in the government (like socialists everywhere else in the western world) are against christian schools in Norway but support madrasas in Pakistan. It's just the general socialist malaise: If somebody doesn't like us, throw money after them, because it's our fault anyway (even if we're not quite sure why - one or more of the following generally suffice: crusades, imperialism, capitalism, white males, sexism, racism, not understanding the brilliance of Andalucia, apartheid, international companies, britney spears or mcdonalds).

Posted by: FulmenSeptentrionalis at September 26, 2007 6:42 AM

"Government Minister Erik Solheim said the aid was aimed at promoting dialogue and religious tolerance."

These people are morons.

Posted by: Elric66 at September 26, 2007 6:47 AM

Amen to that, Elric...

Posted by: FulmenSeptentrionalis at September 26, 2007 6:49 AM

"Government Minister Erik Solheim said the aid was aimed at promoting dialogue and religious tolerance."

....have any of the schools generated any dialogue or shown evidence of becoming more tolerant of Non-Islamic religions?....

....what's that?....No...I understand...

....Bad aiming is bad...good aiming is good....Government Minister Erik Solheim evidently has not done his homework....

Posted by: exsgtbrown at September 26, 2007 7:59 AM

"Investigations show that Koran schools, particularly in Karachi, have trained jihad suicide bombers and sent them to Afghanistan and Kashmir. It is assumed that schools outside of Karachi are also breading Islamic fundamentalists.

In essence, Norway is funding Pakistani breeding grounds for terrorists; or, if you want to put it more bluntly, Norway is funding terrorism"

Posted by: exsgtbrown at September 26, 2007 8:22 AM

«If you could prevent people from bringing in spouses from abroad [...] I think assimilation will do the trick»

So do I. Islamization of Norway lags one generation behind e.g. Holland and France. But unless legislation against immigration through marriage is in vigor before substantial chunks of the third generation start marrying in ten years' time, incontrollable colonization will be the result there as well.

(A phenomenon yet limited to eastern parts of the capital, where families of muslim immigrants are known to sell long-term marriage options on behalf of their toddlers in order for a family back in the country of origin to open the door to Norway).

Posted by: otranto at September 26, 2007 9:16 AM

What's next?

Knives For Underprivileged Jihadis?

Posted by: profitsbeard at September 26, 2007 10:58 AM

"What's next?

Knives For Underprivileged Jihadis?

Posted by: profitsbeard "

...free prozak?....

Posted by: exsgtbrown at September 26, 2007 4:01 PM

The Government Minister Solheim is the same guy who last year blew the peace negotiations at Sri Lanka by actively supporting the Tamil Tigers. He recently had his diplomats kicked out of Ethiopia as a result of his active support for the Islamist warlords in Somalia, and was earlier this year instrumental in having his Government break away from international consensus and recognizing and supporting the Hamas with considerable funds. Politically he is a former chairman of the orthodox Marxist Socialist Left party, locally known as the "Museum Guards". His preferences for an ideal society seem to be a blend of Gaza, Pyongyang and the Hundred Acre Wood.

Posted by: Osmund Bindalen at September 26, 2007 7:41 PM