You can see why perhaps Turkey should not be a member of the EU. The Germans openly acknowledge the crimes against humanity that occured during World War II. The Turkish government lies about the jihad against the Armenians during World War I and our administration cooperates with the "second" death of the Armenians by denying the truth of their passing.

You are only as sick as the secrets you keep.

Posted by: tanstaafl at October 11, 2007 5:37 PM

"The Turks are irked. Wipe off that smirk."

I smirk at the irked turk....don't let the door hit you on the way out..don't pass go...bite me....eat my shorts...no soup for you.

Posted by: greatcometof1577 at October 11, 2007 5:52 PM

WAAAAAAAAAAA!
The poor Wuzlims!
Somebody call a wambulance!

Posted by: Ynkedoodl2 at October 11, 2007 6:39 PM

A little peom...

Before the war, the Turkish perk
Did shrivel up and go berzerk.
The 4th ID drove off to work
But Turkey stabbed her poison dirk.
Betrayal! Murder! (those Muslim quirks)
Were handed out by smirking Turks
Who specialize in burning kirks,
And being genocidal jerks.

Only a DC berkish clerk
Could think our 'friendship' not a sirk.

Posted by: jsla at October 11, 2007 8:18 PM

The slaughter did not end with the Armenians, unfortunately. Thousands of Assyrians and Greeks were also killed by the Turks during this time period. Assyrians, as well as Armenians, have whole parts of their families missing from three generations ago...and I don't think that they were taken up one up by Muhammed's night journeys either. Turks should have to acknowledge and to make some sort of restitution for their brutal behavior. Of course, they was before they decided to occupy part of Christian Cyrus, which they continue to do. They are not good allies to the West nor to their surrounding neighbors. They are a country in a deep state of denial, with a long history of brutal aggression, and a re-emerging radical Islamic agenda. The trust level that the West has with them should be very short and very conditional.

Posted by: maryrose at October 11, 2007 9:35 PM

The "consultation" will consist of:

Did you bring the "Girls Gone Wild" DVD's we requested in the diplomatic pouch?

Then a skulking return to The Great Satan in two weeks, unnoticed.

Posted by: profitsbeard at October 11, 2007 10:20 PM

Robert, don't give up your day job for gigs at poetry slams. Even if you improve, we need you too much in the antijihad trenches to sacrifice you to seedy nightclubs, artsy parties and college expresso bars.

jsla, on the other hand -- well done.

I'm surprised that nobody managed to work "shirk" into the rhyme. You know, as in "committing shirk". I won't try this late at night.

Posted by: Archimedes2 at October 11, 2007 11:44 PM

the latest talking point, and sadly coming out of ou own administration, is why condemn the Turks for something done by another govenrment 100 years ago.

I've read the resoluton. It doesn't blame the Turks of today. And furthermore I suggest whoever writes these asinine talking points consider if the German government were to start denying the Holocaust in 30 or 40 years how anyone would say with a straight face: "it was 100 years ago and the current German government is not the Nazi government that perpetrated the Holocaust anyway.."

I have Armenian American friends -- lots of them have Turkish American friends! This entire issue would not have come up this way if it were not for the Turkish government of Today going on a full offensive against the recognition of the genocide in academia, schools, museums OUTSIDE of Turkey!

That is why it has gotten to the level of Congress! It is a response to the disgusting campaign of denial.

I do NOT care what the Turkish Ambassador does. they can keep whining and stomping for all I care. My son served in Iraq. The Turkish government screwed us from day one. They are screwing with eh northern board and the Kurds right now. I care what my government in the US does. Those fighting against the recognition are not on tenuous grounds, they are no grounds -- moral, factual or good policy!

Posted by: FrankLev at October 12, 2007 12:46 AM

Freedom of speech in Turkey.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/10/11/AR2007101101244.htm

Posted by: FrankLev at October 12, 2007 12:49 AM

"The Turks are irked. Wipe off that smirk. They think we're jerks, for this genocide work. They will sulk and they may cry, and we will know the reason why: we've told the truth about their past, and so their deceptiveness can't last."

Robert Frost you ain't....but it's not half bad.

Posted by: Cornelius at October 12, 2007 2:04 AM

Good. And don't come back. You Child.

Posted by: ewha1 at October 12, 2007 7:58 AM

This declaration is an attempt of the House to control the war in Iraq by pissing off the Turks so they won't allow overflights.
Peloysi and her gang could care less about Armenians dead or alive.

Posted by: Aunt Bea at October 12, 2007 10:19 AM

This declaration is an attempt of the House to control the war in Iraq by pissing off the Turks so they won't allow overflights.
Peloysi and her gang could care less about Armenians dead or alive.

Posted by: Aunt Bea at October 12, 2007 10:21 AM

Why on Earth should we be doing this now? Who does it serve? All that this measure or any attempts to force Turkey to admit to a genocide that its generations born afterward were told never happened is to increase tensions further between us. What, we're going to get reparations or something?

My family kept meticulous records of the many raids on towns that they suffered through in Western Turkey as Ionian Greeks. This was their homeland, and most left seeing the writing on the wall. Still, I have many relatives who didn't make it.

Yet what is being said by many Turks is true, and furthermore is backed up by most studies of the subject by both Greeks in Diaspora or Armenian researcher, including Marjorie Housepian Dobkin, one of the most frequently cited sources in this area for her book Smyrna, 1922.

Many Western nations were involved during this war-time civil strife. Armenian nationalism was at an almost all time high, with Armenian extremists using terror tactics against Turkish civilians. After the end of WWI, Greece's Venizelos was talked into launching the Greek Army into invading Asia Minor, bolstered by the same Western governments who were also doing double duty supporting Ataturk and his forces. Standard Oil was after a major contract, and 3 U.S. warships sat in Smyrna harbor refusing to even board (in 1922) those swimming to escape the flames--and these American ships were hardly the only ones representative of Western nations in that harbor on that tragic night.

American citizens of Ionian Greek descent were also allowed to go back to Asia Minor to help relatives, but their citizenship was effectively revoked when they tried to return to safety back in the U.S.

If any of this goes through, I won't blame the Turks for being angry, Turks today were taught that this never happened, many prominent Americans (including the descendants of those serving in Turkey at the time whose letters and diaries contain unforgivably racist statements) are going to look utterly horrendous, as will our actions at the time.

If I can forgive and be in correspondence with a Turk with whom I have decided that action should be taken to LESSEN tension and hatred, actively planning work online to this end, then can't other people see that this possible rather than resurrecting a past that will only lead to more hatred and murder?

Lex, formerly "Pim's Ghost"

Posted by: Pim's Ghost at October 12, 2007 12:27 PM

October 12, 2007

Representative Melvin Watt
District 12 – North Carolina
2236 Rayburn HOB
Washington, DC
20515-3312

Dear Representative Watt,

I’ve seen a written reply of yours to a constituent recently on Robert Spencer’s Jihad Watch web log (www.jihadwatch.org) and I’d like to send you some information because of it. Here’s the body of your reply as it was posted:

Thank you for your email about the establishment and practice of Islamic Sharia law in the United States.

The First Amendment of the United States Constitution guarantees the free exercise of religious principles. Therefore, I believe that the language proposed in your email would be unconstitutional and I would not support it.
I appreciate your input on this issue. If I or my staff can be of further assistance, please do not hesitate to contact me.
Sincerely,
Melvin L. Watt

I agree with you when you say: The First Amendment of the United States Constitution guarantees the free exercise of religious principles. However, sharia is a body of religious rulings from historic ulema councils and various rulings (fatwas) from religious authorities that have become codified. These are all based on interpretations of the Qur’an and the sunnah of Mohammed and are binding on all people living in places under sharia, not merely those who are Muslim.

Sharia is the institutionalization of Islamic supremacy over all other belief systems. Sharia institutionalizes a two-tier system of unequal rights based on gender or religious beliefs. Sharia is not the free exercise of religious principles, sir. It is the legal enforcement of Islamic principles at the expense of all other principles.

Sharia is not a ‘religious practice’ it’s a system of judgment and punishment based on the dictates of one belief system calling itself a religion. It has nothing to do with spiritual matters at all and allows Muslim rulers to kill people if they leave Islam publicly. Sharia is a codified system of oppression that condones slavery as well, sir. To this day. The capricious tyrant Allah reserves all rights and none are given to the states or the people.

Sharia is not a set of religious principles and the principles contained therein are the polar opposite to those guaranteed by the United States Constitution.

Sharia institutionalizes the concentration of church and state because under this set of laws a person must submit to Islam or live as a ‘protected’ religious minority and pay a tax (jizya). Only Jews and Christians have the opportunity to live as a dhimmi ( second – class citizens who are insecure in body and property) Non-muslims other than Jews or Christians living under sharia are supposed to either convert or be killed.

Look at Saudi Arabia if you want to see the best example of what sharia brings to a people and how it differs from what we have.

When your constituents mail you a copy of “The Religion of Peace – Why Christianity Is and Islam Isn’t” please take the time to read and think about this. Not all things calling themselves religions protect or support the principles we have established in the Bill of Rights and have paid for in lives and treasure so many times thus far.

I’m sending my two-page essay contrasting principles found in sharia with those of our Constitution. Please read it if nothing else. Remember the oath you swore as you took your seat in Congress. You have committed to defending the Constitution against all enemies, foreign and domestic. Recognize sharia as one of them, sir.

Yours truly and sincerely in all these matters,

Posted by: A_Plague_on_Both_Houses at October 12, 2007 1:46 PM

Pim's Ghost ...

You wrote: Yet what is being said by many Turks is true, and furthermore is backed up by most studies of the subject by both Greeks in Diaspora or Armenian researcher, including Marjorie Housepian Dobkin, one of the most frequently cited sources in this area for her book Smyrna, 1922.

Good luck on this. All the people in the area — Turks and Armenians — who want there to be peace and goodwill talk EXACTLY as you do and cite the same information.

I think, obviously, that Pelosi is doing this now SO THAT the Turks block access to Iraq from their side, and thus bring the war to a close without the Democrats having to actually pull the votes together to force an exit strategy. Or, if it *IS* the case that Pelosi is doing it for the Armenian people, it will have been the first time she did anything out of the goodness (which we hope we'll find) of her heart.

Meanwhile, Russian and American ideologues should open all the historical files they have refused to open despite multiple requests by the Turkish government to do so. That would REALLY clear the air.

But meanwhile, I understand what you're saying and the sources you're using. Personally, I think the Turks ought to apologize, but I also think that the statement should include all the complications.

The simple fact is: the Armenians carried out terrorists attacks for decades before all hell broke loose, and to ignore that is as dishonest as well. I don't think it's on a par with the complete subjugation of its history by the Turks, but it's not a good thing, for sure.

Personally, I like Hrant Dink's perspective, as told by Mustafa Akyol in his article grieving Dink's murder:

Yet, while Mr. Dink continued to make his case in the face of reaction from Turkish authorities and nationalist groups, he also criticized the anti-Turkish stance in some circles of the Armenian Diaspora. Turks were not bad people who deserve to be seen as the enemy, he insisted; they just needed to be informed about the other side of the story.
[http://www.thewhitepath.org]

Anyhow, your post was courageous and a breath of fresh air. While we sort out the acknowledgement of a great terror for the Armenians, we should stay mindful that the situation is being used, and abused, by politicians not on the side of any good people we know.

Posted by: Morgaan Sinclair at October 12, 2007 2:57 PM

Why is it beyond their capacity to say "That was then, this is now; there were attacks on civilians that went beyond mere defense against Armenian insurrection, and those times cast a dark shadow on the history of the old Ottoman Empire. But we are the new, modern, secular Turkey and we are moving forward, not looking back."

Posted by: A_Nonny_Mouse at October 12, 2007 8:08 PM

M. Sinclair--I think you are quite possibly correct about Pelosi, and I am trying to give all such theories equal scrutiny (though that is the most logical perhaps).

I'm glad that you wish us well in our quest for peace and understanding between the modern young people in all of the ethnic groups from Asia Minor. Do understand, I am not of the "peace & love" sort who always advocate such measures of "tolerance". Yet, as the Turks tend to base so many of their decisions in a pragmatism that we Westerners can barely comprehend (gotta love those steppe peoples!), so am I arriving late at this position in my life.

I used to dream of the day when the Turks would be called to task. As I said, my family (Ionian Greeks) kept meticulous records. I know who was killed and at which skirmish, going much farther back than even this era (notes dating back to the 1860s). My relatives are not coming back, this will change nothing except for adding tension to friendships made by many in all of these groups.

I mean not to be cliche by citing Dobkin's work, it is simply the most easily recognized outside of these ethnic circles most immediately involved. I think I've read everything in at least English on the topic of the genocide(s), I just no longer wish for anything more than my family has made for itself on its own since leaving Asia Minor. I know that regardless, friendships I have with Turks aren't likely to be broken by any of this. Still, the dredging up of old familial memories for many who are not lobbying for this "admission of guilt" are enough to add plenty of fuel to the fire.

One last note, if I may, I think that it is absolutely absurd and even more harmful to those of us in diaspora to limit the years of "the genocide", as most reputable records will show attacks of varying intensity aimed at all of the Christian groups dating to far before WWI as well as after. Importantly as well, Western powers were playing their hands in the situation, as you noted Armenians were bombing, after the end of WWI the Greek Army invaded. Nothing excuses mass killings of certain ethnic groups, as you also point out, but at a certain point one must forgive, for we are too young now to be able to forget! Dink's quote sums it up quite nicely.

Thank You,

Lex

Posted by: Pim's Ghost at October 13, 2007 12:58 AM

Genocide is what it's called?

How about wholesale murder of Christians and Jews; I think that is more accurate.

Posted by: witness at October 13, 2007 10:23 AM

Genocide is what it's called?

How about wholesale murder of Christians and Jews; I think that is more accurate.

Posted by: witness at October 13, 2007 10:23 AM

Perhaps it is exactly what the Turkish don't want it called. BUT, since it happened 90 years ago, I am wondering why the Democrats in Congress have decided to call for a resolution now and sabotage relations with one of the few Islamic countries siding with America.????

Sounds like something Jimmy Carter would do. And he's been shooting off his dumb-ass mouth a lot this week.

Posted by: CLL1709 at October 13, 2007 6:32 PM

Lex, formerly "Pim's Ghost",

When you talk about what the "Armenians" were doing, I wonder how much history you know beyond anecdotes.

Most of the Armenian men were conscripted into the Ottoman Army during the period after 1908 and massively so during the war.

There is a lot of fake history promulgated by Turkey (where historians and journalists TODAY are subject to arrest for "insulting" Turkey).

This entire issue would not be so acute if Ankara had not been hellbent on denial outside of Turkey.

So when you question the timing and contemporary relevance keep this in mind: the only party making this issue about modern Turkey is the Government and Nationalists of Turkey.

Have you read the resolution?

Posted by: FrankLev at October 14, 2007 1:10 PM

Frank, I really have nothing against the Armenians at all. They were treated the worst out of all of the minorities, it would seem, left in Asia Minor by WWI. I was just pointing out that it was a bad situation for everyone, it got to the point that everyone was shooting at each other and raiding and looting, etc.

Heaven knows, I thought I'd be the last person ever to try and defend Turks, a well-educated Ionian Greek such as myself. This is the justice dreamed of by people who are long gone. While I do want all of us from that soil to have justice, I want no further division.

I want justice, but who on this Earth gets justice? That we get when we die. My entire problem is the issue that there is a very friendly population of Turks of a younger generation from whom the truth has been kept. Throw this in their face, and you think there will be any peace such as I have been working for with Turks personally? We will weather the storm, but this window of opportunity for us all to have made friends seems to be ending, much to my regret.

I certainly do keep in mind the actions of the Turkish Government, the Army, everything, and I also note that that government speaks for most Turks about as well as the American Government speaks for most Americans. Don't punish the people. We are just trying our best, and these Turkish kids, they have nothing at all to do with what happened! Hurting them will not bring my relatives back to life.

I've been ill, but I'll read it. All of it and more.

Posted by: Pim's Ghost at October 16, 2007 6:09 PM