Tablighi Jamaat “is a separatist organization,” Mr. Craig said in an interview in his living room where a picture of the crucifixion of Christ hung on a wall, a cross rested on a bookshelf, and a Bible lay on the coffee table.

Note how the reporter chose to emphasize Mr. Craigs's decor, rather than provide more information about Tablighi Jamaat.

Posted by: ImNoDhimmi at November 4, 2007 8:01 AM

a worldwide evangelical Islamic group

Evangelical Islamic?!!! What kind of moral equivalence is that?
Evangelical literally means preacher of the good News that Jesus Christ died for our sins. Is that what this "evangelical" Islamic group preaches?

This reporter is trying to equate Evangelical Christians with Muslims, just like many have fallen to the lie that Christians Fundamentalists as just as bad as Muslim fundamentalists.

The ignorance in Christian theolog by this reporter is amazing.

The New Duranty Times is a joke.

Posted by: Crusader at November 4, 2007 8:55 AM

That leaves the field open to neo-fascists who confuse the issue with race supremacism and drive away people who might otherwise have been their supporters. If the major parties in Britain were worth anything at all, they would be leading the fight against this mega-mosque, and exposing the Islamic supremacist agenda of the Tablighi Jamaat........Maybe Atlas could learn this...instead of making snide remarks about Charles Johnson and LGF..who along with Jihad watch lead the fight aginst the jihad.

Posted by: storagemanager at November 4, 2007 8:57 AM

So the BNP are against it? Onoes! that means we must be for it because they're all horrid nazis and fascists and eat puppies and jostle grannies in the street!

Like it or not, and for whatever reason, the BNP are right on this issue and saying what most people only dare to think.
If the major parties had the courage of their convictions, they would say the same, but a shout of 'racism' sends them of to hide while spending loads of taxpayers money on muslim only issues (schools, imams etc)
I read LGF a lot, but Charles is dead wrong on this issue.
An overabundance of purity and what Orwell called 'Orthodoxy Sniffers' leaves us fragmented until its only thee and me - and I'm not so sure about thee.

Posted by: robert in england at November 4, 2007 9:06 AM

"Karen Armstrong, a historian of religion, wrote an article in the liberal Guardian newspaper commenting favorably about the mosque"

A former nun who was on the platform at a literary festival in the last year. When a speaker began to criticise islam she physically blocked the microphone and refused to allow him to proceed.

Some liberal, but whatever she is she is not a historian.

Posted by: Fred at November 4, 2007 9:12 AM

Nothing will mainstream Sharia faster than for the men and women of conscience who are fighting Islamic intolerance to make common cause with the racist Right. It is the kiss of death.

We can oppose this mosque and other forms of Islamization without climbing into bed with the likes of the BNP and their fellow travelers.

Posted by: Cornelius at November 4, 2007 9:20 AM

..I am not a prophet, but I see house to house street fighting in UKs future...

Ban Muslim Immigration...

Posted by: exsgtbrown at November 4, 2007 9:23 AM

I would like to thank The Sheik for putting this up on his blog

http://sheikyermami.com/2007/11/04/nick-griffith-the-islamization-of-europe/

Posted by: shiva at November 4, 2007 9:27 AM

As long as we are critical of Islam we are racists whether or not we become bedfellows of the likes of BNP,SD and Vlaams Belang.

Posted by: shiva at November 4, 2007 9:44 AM

shiva...so you beileve the lie?...Charles has showed proof...and Robert just posted on this.....get in bed with neo-Nazi's if you please...but sleep on your back...or you may find a knife in it.

Posted by: storagemanager at November 4, 2007 9:44 AM

I also sent this article to JW. Here's a youtube video I found - the Muslims are already planning on killing Alan Craig. It's called "In Memory of Counsillor Alan Craig.":

http://www.youtube.com:80/watch?v=Z8W4nBAFXBk

Posted by: darcy at November 4, 2007 9:50 AM

storagemanager

So you believe the lie?...Charles has showed proof...and Robert just posted on this

Charles has not proven a thing except being duped by Anti Fascist League propaganda, same bunch of morons that just attempted to snuff out the leaders of SOIE in Denmark

Posted by: shiva at November 4, 2007 9:50 AM

Anti Fascist League propaganda..Posted by: shiva..........Thank you...you just admitted they are Facist.

Posted by: storagemanager at November 4, 2007 9:59 AM

Wanting your own ethnic homeland is NOT racist. It is a basic human right. You people who call the BNP facists are stupid tools of the far left who have a tactic of continually slinging mud at the most democratic, honest and open party in Europe in the hope that some of it will stick.

Visit the BNP website then come back here and show us the 'facist' element.

Posted by: BlowHammed at November 4, 2007 10:03 AM

Shiva: "As long as we are critical of Islam we are racists".

Oh, so in that case, what do you make of this report from the London Times? "... the plan to build Europe’s biggest mosque beside the London 2012 Olympic Park is attracting opposition from the Muslim community. The concern is not the building, but the activities of Tablighi Jamaat, the ultra-orthodox sect that is behind the huge mosque. A petition against the scheme, organised by Muslims in the East London borough of Newham, attracted 2,500 signatures in only ten days and is continuing to draw support. It says that allowing Tablighi Jamaat to build the mosque would aggravate community tensions".

This backs up comments made previously by Robert and others that some of the biggest victims of Islam are actually Muslims themselves.

Why don't you take you Race Card and shove it where the sun doesn't shine?

Posted by: Paul at November 4, 2007 10:09 AM

"The current BNP has its roots in the New National Front, founded in 1980 by John Tyndall, a former chairman of the National Front (NF)."

The BNP has simply learned to present a polished front.

Posted by: Big Luke at November 4, 2007 10:19 AM

Yeah, sorry, I'm highly, highly, critical of Islam - that's a religion. I'm not a racist. I never had anything against Muslims until 9/11, and the continuing Islamic attacks against others' worldwide.

I hate Islam, a "religion." It has nothing to do with race.

Posted by: darcy at November 4, 2007 10:20 AM

"I do not support the BNP in any way, and it is unfortunate that they initiated this campaign."

written by Mr Spencer, above

Mr Spencer,

Since when has the New York Times (a.k.a. the New Duranty Times) been considered reliable on this website?

The anti mega-mosque campaign was actually initiated by Councilor Allan Craig of the Christian Democrat Party, and by some local muslims, who were aware of the Jihadist links of Tablighi Jamaat. See here:

http://www.christianconcernforournation.co.uk/Press/16nov6.php

The BNP, quite simply, had nothing to do with it.

As for the source of the petition, there is much speculation as to who actually started it. However, even the Guardian didn't go as far as to suggest that the BNP had initiated it, which I am sure they would have done if they had any evidence at all:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/religion/Story/0,,2129601,00.html

In fact, I have only ever seen the claim that the BNP organised the petition on the New York Times' link above!

Therefore, unless any evidence can be presented beyond quoting the New York Times that the BNP party actually started the petition, let alone the campaign, then I would be grateful if you can remove your comment that I referred to at the start of this post.

Just as you don't support the BNP in anyway, nor do the majority of the petition supporters such as myself, and I feel the petition should not be linked with the BNP unless hard facts can be presented.

Posted by: Amicus at November 4, 2007 10:22 AM

We can oppose this mosque and other forms of Islamization without climbing into bed with the likes of the BNP and their fellow travelers.

It's little different than allying ourselves with Russia in WWII. There is a greater evil to be fought, and Islam is it.

Posted by: aynrandgirl at November 4, 2007 10:28 AM

"If the major parties in Britain were worth anything at all"
That is the point, the major political parties in all the supposedly free nations around the world are not worth a pinch of the proverbial. What is the a problem with being proud of your country, being proud of your people, being proud of your heritage and traditions, honoring the sacrifices of our forefathers and supporting the BNP? Multiculturalism is failing and political correctness is killing us. The BNP goal is to secure a future for the indigenous people, and I don't see half hearted measures of lecture tours and debating Jihad and Dhimmitude on a website making any inroads into thwarting the islamic agenda...

Posted by: eloivsdiablo at November 4, 2007 10:47 AM

it's crass reports like this which are leading to the destruction of western democracy and any attempts to highlight the islamification are drowned out by slurs of racism and islamophobia.

the initiator of this petition has since had her web site shut down, she did nothing illegal yet call for the mega mosque to be closed.

thank you all for helping to get her site shut down, you have done the islamics and the marxists a great service.

http://radicalmuslim.blogsome.com/2007/05/14/mega-mosque-petition/

" the English Rose blog has been closed down,"

the BNP organisation were not behind this petition. get your facts straight.

Posted by: leonthepigfarmer at November 4, 2007 10:49 AM

Posted by: storagemanager

Thank you...you just admitted they are Facist.

If you knew anything about the AFL in Europe and how far the have their heads up the islamofascist $rses then you would not make such moronic comments

Posted by: shiva at November 4, 2007 10:52 AM

Jihadwatch team: Once you post the letters BNP in any story, you encourage all its little monkeys - who are normally invisible on here - to come out of their cages and start howling. They're like the Ron Paul revolutionaries, only with far uglier views.

And BlowHammed, be very careful before you invite people to visit the BNP's website - they might stumble across a few dirty secrets. In this JW thread linked below, I point out some truths about the BNP - including its deep-rooted anti-Semitism, its barking mad conspiracy theories, its obsession with race, and its proud links with former KKK Leader David Duke. All the quotes are taken directly from its website (with links provided), and expose vile claims such as:

The Mossad carried out 9/11, aided by Jews in the US Administration;

Powerful Jews, backed up by Jewish media bosses, persuaded President Bush to invade Iraq to benefit Israel;

The US is using phoney "terrorism" as an excuse grab the world's oil supplies;

http://www.jihadwatch.org/dhimmiwatch/archives/017485.php

The BNP has jumped on the threat posed by Islamism for no other reason than to further its own hateful agenda. Its leader, Nick Griffin - a convicted anti-Semite and Holocaust denier - freely admits this:

"We should be positioning ourselves to take advantage for our own political ends of the growing wave of public hostility to Islam currently being whipped up by the mass media. This is not a matter of dancing to neo-con tunes, but of finding members of the public who are already used to the sound of that kind of music willing to cross over and dance to our tune."

http://www.bnp.org.uk/columnists/chairman2.php?ngId=30

There may be doubts about the Vlaams Belang and the Sweden Democrats, but there are no doubts about the BNP. They are neo-Nazi through and through.

Posted by: Matamoros at November 4, 2007 10:56 AM

The BNP may be a bit nationalistic for some people's tastes but they are not the knuckle dragging Nazis they are routinely portrayed as.

The BNP have Jewish councillors.

At the last General election, the Labour party had an election poster that depicted 2 leading Jewish MPs as pigs.

Which would you more associate with Nazism?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/4217009.stm

As usual, the hypocrisy of the political Left is nauseous.

Posted by: Celsius at November 4, 2007 11:07 AM

looks like the UN is finally on the side of british nationalists...

Article 8.1:"Indigenous peoples and individuals have the right not to be subjected to forced assimilation or destruction of their culture" 8.2:" states shall provide effective mechanisms for prevention of , and redress for: (a) "any action which has the aim or effect of depriving them of their integrity as distinct peoples, or of their cultural values or ethnic identities"(b)"any action which has the aim or effect of dispossessing them of their lands, territories or resources"(c) "any form of forced population transfer which has the aim or effect of violating or undermining any of their rights"(d)"any form of forced assimilation or integration"(e)"any form of propaganda designed to promote or incite racial or ethnic discrimination directed against them"

Posted by: leonthepigfarmer at November 4, 2007 11:13 AM

robert

Didnt you just share a platform with vlamms belang?

Posted by: leonthepigfarmer at November 4, 2007 11:20 AM

"There may be doubts about the Vlaams Belang"

""Vlaams Blok says: Our own people first!! And yes, Vlaams Blok chooses a Flemish Flanders. And yes, Vlaams Blok chooses a white Europe!" (Vlaams Blok-meeting, 1991) "

""Staf de Clercq is one of the historical leaders of the Flemish national movement. Our party, the Vlaams Belang, is the continuator of this movement. We may not deny this past. Although I realise that it might be difficult for Jewish readers to understand, most collaborators thought that they could realise an independent Flanders by cooperating with the Germans. Most of them are ashamed of the horror they caused. The only thing I can do today is to show understanding for the suffering of the Jewish people."(Ha'aretz, August 31, 2005. Staf de Clercq was a collaborator during the second world war, known for his words: "There is only one solution: Purification of our people, total and complete disconnection of the Jew from the peoples body.") "

Posted by: leonthepigfarmer at November 4, 2007 11:25 AM

Thank you matamoros for the link, although there was nothing in the article to suggest BNP are neo-Nazis, except for a neutral stance on the Palestine/Israel conflict which means that they are not pro-Israel and that means neo-Nazi. I get it.

"We should campaign to stop the EU helping to fund the Palestinian Authority and sucking up to the Arab world, not because we are or should be pro-Israel, but because there are far better things to do with our money, because we don’t want to drift into Eurabia, and because the entire place is of no proper concern of ours.

Even the question of oil should be dealt with by a Swedish-style crash program to wean ourselves off the stuff, not least because it’s an environmental disaster and is going to become scarce and so impossibly expensive sooner or later anyway. The only thing of any interest to us is that potential flood of refugees. Apart from that, what happens in the Middle East should be a matter of sublime indifference to a properly run Western nation."

Posted by: eloivsdiablo at November 4, 2007 12:06 PM

I am becoming increasingly suspicious of all those who are doing everything they can to smear and discredit those who come out to fight the global jihad. Whether its Robert Spencer or Charles Johnson, whether Nick Griffen or David Horowitz or Daniel Pipes, for the commies and the Islamofascists we are all racist Islamophobic fascist Nazi's who oppress Muslims and spew fire when we don't steal the hearts and eyes of little Palistanian children.

What Charles Johnson has done is poison the well. Those who buy into this 'racist/Nazi/white-power garbage are beyond stupid and worthless in this fight anyhow.

I did listen to Nick Griffen and I didn't hear anything I didn't like. I invite you to do the same and stop digging yourselfs in a hole. The canniballistic lizards are a bunch of cheerleading cyber geeks, worthless if not opposed to this fight. Have you ever heard any of them offer any solution to the Muhammedan invasion? How do you make omelette without breaking eggs?

The soldiers of Allah kill and die for their religion, and what are they doing? Looking for Nazi's under the bed?

Sorry. Spit. Sorry. Doesn't work.

Take your time and listen. The man makes sense. He could be Churchills reincarnation:

http://www.sheikyermami.com/

Posted by: sheik yer'mami at November 4, 2007 12:25 PM

leonthepigfarmer

Most impressed by your quote from the UN Charter.

When you posted it on the thread about the Labour "Think tank" plan to run down Christmas a couple of days ago I copied it onto the “Daily Mail’s” comments column on the same story. So far as I could see the moderator did not let it through. But when I Googled UN Charter Article 8.1 all I got was a couple of lines about something else. Can you tell me where I can find the original?

Posted by: Fred at November 4, 2007 12:33 PM

Many people signed that petition aginat the mega-mosque smack in the middle of London, who have nothing to do with the BNP and who, in fact, find much of what it has offered, and possibly still offers, deplorable. Two English signers of the petition, know to me both through their prior postings at this website and their present contributions to another website -- www.newenglishreview.org -- have always been implacably opposed to the BNP, yet were happy to sign that petition against the mosque. The article in The Times gives a different impression.

And there are implications, some possibly innocent, some not so innocent, throughout the piece.

Take, for example, this:

[After] "Karen Armstrong, a historian of religion, wrote an article in the liberal Guardian newspaper commenting favorably about the mosque, the paper’s Web site was deluged with complaints.

In Newham, the borough where the mosque would stand, Alan Craig, the leader of the Christian Peoples Alliance Party in the East End, started a one-man campaign against the mosque a year ago that has grown and gained national prominence."

There then follows a description of Alan Craig, his Bible, his cross on the wall, and all the other things which, nowadays, are offered up as signs of a True Believer in Christianity -- impliedly, a slightly disturbing spectacle, a worrisome or at least suspect thing, and we know how crazy those holy-rollers can be, don't we?

But look at how Karen Armstrong, herself so sweetly vicious in her anti-Israel views and transparent anti-Jewish views (transparent even as she expresses a phony outrage what Jews endured, at times, in Western Christendom, but only so that she might better defend Islam against charges of theological Jew-hatred which are not, pace Bernard Lewis, merely borrowings from modern European antisemites), a Defender of Islam and a practitioner of moral equivalence about terrorism that can practically be set to porterish music ("Jews do it, Christians do it, even educated Hindus and Buddhists do it"), is blandly described, this comical non-scholar, this ex-nun with her own scores to settle and private demons to propitiate, is lbandly described in The Times article as an "historian." And an "historian" who appears in the "liberal" Guardian. "Liberal" is it? That might work, it would work, in the good old fashioned sense of the word "liberal," to The Guardian, the Manchester Guardian, of C.P. Scott. But to the current Guardian, run by god knows who, exactly (Alan Rusbridger is officially in command), is not "liberal" but far left, and not only far left, but the epicenter, in the print media, of the Defenders of the Faith, that Faith being Islam, defensible in thought, word, and deed to the good doctors of The Guardian.

All in all, a better article than one is used to reading in The Times. But how slow that learning curve is to rise from its horizonal position -- in the case of the Western world, all learning curves about Islam may be described as "grandes horizontales," just as our ruling elites have been, when offered the sums and contracts and arms deals made available by the Saudis and other rich Arabs, "grandes horizontales" of another, older kind.

Posted by: Hugh at November 4, 2007 12:35 PM

SHIEK YER MAMI about the BNP's Nick Griffin:

"The man makes sense. He could be Churchill's reincarnation."

I rest my case folks.

Posted by: Cornelius at November 4, 2007 12:45 PM

Let's not forget The Guardian newspaper has such political acumen that it was happy to employ a trainee journalist from Hizb ut-Tahrir, an islamic group banned in many countries.

Apparantly, they were unaware that this cuddly bunch would quite happily have thrown all it's homosexual staff from the tallest building and covered the feminists with a burkah given half a chance.

Posted by: Celsius at November 4, 2007 12:51 PM

If the only significant resistance against Islam comes from fascists then a) the battle will be lost and b) the fascists' posthumous reputation will be much better than that of their mainstream contemporaries (and rightly so).

Posted by: otranto at November 4, 2007 1:05 PM

The resolution will be the bankruptcy of the welfare state. 60% of the US federal budget goes to social programs. Tax-generating young English professionals are leaving. They are being replaced with a largely dependent immigrant population, many of whom feel little loyalty to the government.

The government’s books are cooked. The US uses cash accounting to come up with a $9 trillion debt, but in reality (accrual accounting) it’s closer to $70 trillion, growing by $3 trillion per year and accelerating. 70% of American home equity has just been wiped off the books. Watch out bank solvency and consumer spending. Over half of my discretionary spending is on food and energy. Why are food and energy not included in ‘core’ inflation? Everybody agrees that things are unsustainable. Nobody talks about the end game.

Here’s some numbers on our non-entitlement debt:
http://mwhodges.home.att.net/nat-debt/debt-nat-a.htm

Posted by: pez at November 4, 2007 1:09 PM

Granny Weathermax, hi, hope all is well with you.

People like Cornelius and Charles Johnston have got a bee in the bonnet about Neo-Nazi's, but in truth very few of these people really exist.

Charles has managed to find superficial information at best about the VB, most of which was taken from the left that attack them by painting them as Neo-Nazi's. The picture that Charles posted in his first attack on VB was not even a VB rally.

As for the Swedish Democrats they chucked out all of the Neo-Nazis who created another party, and what does Charles publish, a picture of a rally before this split occurred.

And the rest of the proof, well the same PC rubbish of people in the public eye smeared as extremists trying to say that they are not fascists by smearing the VB, just as Charles is doing now, because Charles Johnson has to give the impression of not being a fascist to further his own position, along with banning loads of commentators on his site. That is the position of any person trying to influence policy in the USA, so thanks and no thanks for making it more difficult for us, we don't need simplistic anti-Fascist statements we get it all teh time from our Lords and Masters!!!!

There is a movement growing in Europe of people concerned with Islam, of course there will be some people in this movement who have views that I personally do not agree with, but it is going to be a broad based movement. And this simplistic no to Nazi's when anyone who opposes Islam is smeared with that brush gets us no where.

The fight will in the end focus on those in favour of freedom of freedom of expression, man made laws and democracy against those that do not, do not lose sight of that people.

I think that both the VB and SD parties are far ahead of the BNP in regards to becoming more mainstream and I feel that the BNP has some way to go, but it is attracting people who cannot simply be defined as Neo-Nazi's and in my view will drop its more extreme past as these people start influencing things. Take the ballet dancer, her boyfriend is Asian, is that a Neo-Nazi or white supremacist, nope its omeone concerned over the wrong type of immigration.

I had a good long look at the BNP, and was starting to get a good feeling until I came upon some comments on the Jews and their approach to the Middle East, which made me think that they are not there yet.

Of course Mr Spencer cannot support the BNP, and the BNP needs to fully walk the same path as the VB and others, but once a party has made that change at least open your minds to it and not follow the same knee jerk reaction that the PC brigade have forced you to take.

Posted by: Daffersd at November 4, 2007 1:28 PM

What a pity that this potentially useful thread has degenerated so quickly into a digression on the exact nature of the BNP and away from the mega-mosque. Had I known about the petition against the mega-mosque I would have signed it. Thank you Granny Weatherwax for your interesting and useful post above.
I am a practicing Jew and regard myself as a patriotic Englishman but it is my belief I would not feel comfortable in the BNP. I might add that I was totally opposed to Nick Griffin being prosecuted for alleged hate speech a few months ago.
It nauseated me when Gordon Brown (then the Chancellor of the Exchequor) came out and announced that [as Nick Griffin had been found not guilty] the laws needed to be changed to ensure future convictions. The tactics of a tyranny and a banana republic to outlaw free speech and the fight against Islamification. What was meant in reality was selective use of future draconian laws - no free speech to give a factual talk in private to an invited audience on the nature of Islamic teaching while, of course, allowing all sorts of Islamic threats and menaces to be made in public.

@ Fred

Are you sure this was Karen Armstrong at the literary festival? I was pretty certain it was the equally dhimmified Guardian hack and think-tank 'thinker' Madelaine Bunting at a literary festival. Maybe it happened twice - if so, par for the course.

Posted by: moris2 at November 4, 2007 1:38 PM

@ HUGH

If you read the Guardians "Comment Is Free" postings, you'll notice that many people are wakeing up to the danger and argue against it.

Although if you cite too much historical evidence and quotes from the books it seems too much for people to take in.

But there is an obvious and definite trend discernable.

People are wakeing up and they're trying to find a way to articulate they're fears.

Posted by: Big Luke at November 4, 2007 1:40 PM

they're = *their*

Doh!

Posted by: Big Luke at November 4, 2007 1:45 PM

The BNP is not a nazi fascist party.
I love your work Mr. Spencer, but please stop spreading this nasty, libelous lie.

Posted by: loler at November 4, 2007 1:55 PM

Mr Spencer makes the point he does NOT SUPPORT the
BNP,also that main Parties in U.K are FAILING embattled majority of voters.
Unfortunately if this Majority of Brits are continually IGNORED,DERIDED FOR WANTING A SAY IN THEIR OWN COUNTRY, they will turn to the only Party who offers them any hope-which looks more &
more like BRITISH NATIONAL PARTY...
Balkanization of Britain is already advanced and
solution[apart from a miracle] will be a bloody one. Simple truth is-any ethnic tribe has the choice of FIGHT or FLIGHT from an INVADER.

Posted by: Morgane at November 4, 2007 1:58 PM

I disagree with much of what Charles Johnson & his Little Green Footballers write, but on this subject he is correct. Anyone siding with Nazis, neo or otherwise, is a de-facto racist. BNP, VB, Sweeden Democtats, Gates of Vienna, whatever.

Get used to living in harmony with our Muslim neighbors. They're the new Europe and more are coming, like it or not. Better than the alternative of racist facism and Flemish "separatists".

Posted by: SmartGrowthAdvocate at November 4, 2007 2:19 PM

@ Fred

The link to the original UN resolution and declaration is here:

http://www.ohchr.org/english/issues/indigenous/declaration.htm

Posted by: Ginro at November 4, 2007 2:21 PM

The discussion about the BNP is an important one.

As the islamist presence grows in confidence and the traditional parties fail to act, we are likely to see small parties that are openly fascist or have a fascist history agitating in the national media and at street level.

I live in East London where there is a large muslim population and considerable BNP activity.

The BNP leadership has gone to great lengths to disguise it's policies against jewish and gay people in order to concentrate on muslims. However at local supporter level they are just as anti-semitic and bigotted as they ever were.

On a particulat issue (like the mega-mosque), it IS possible to end up on the same side as the BNP but for the wrong reasons.
We understand the totalitarian nature of islam and it's hatred of individual rights, but the BNP is not really concerned with this aspect, because they have a totalitarian background themselves. They dislike islam and muslims in general because they categorise them as foreigners. First and foremost it is a race issue for them - many of their supporters still use the word 'paki' and muslim interchangeably.

If there is a chance they we can be dismissed as being like the BNP, we must always make the distinction clear. If we don't, the racist charge will be used against us. I usually make it clear up-front, that non-British citizens can make a great contribution to the community and economy and this completely undermines both the BNP and the marxist arguments.

Posted by: zoltix at November 4, 2007 2:34 PM

SmartGrowthAdvocate, LOL, you have to do better than that, please define racism, only the proper use of the word really counts for us:

Racism
a) Belief in the superiority of a particular race.
b) antagonism towards another race due to a)

That is what we should be judged on, and we are not guilty on both of those.

Posted by: Daffersd at November 4, 2007 2:40 PM

The BNP is a group of pathetic, hooliganistic bunch of losers. In a way it attracts the same sort of people that convert to Islam (social misfits).

Anyone that claims that the BNP isn't racist or anti-semitic is either deaf, illiterate or a simple liar. This party is on the same level as Le Pen's "National Front".

Definitely not the answer to anything.

Posted by: cruzado at November 4, 2007 2:57 PM

Ginro;

Thanks for the link, it’s pretty rich. Did you notice that the US voted against the declaration?

United Nations Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous Peoples

Article 8:

1. Indigenous peoples and individuals have the right not to be subjected to forced assimilation or destruction of their culture.
2. States shall provide effective mechanisms for prevention of, and redress for:
(a) Any action which has the aim or effect of depriving them of their integrity as distinct peoples, or of their cultural or ethnic identities.
(b) Any action which has the aim or effect of dispossessing them of their lands, territories, or resources;
(c) Any form of forced population transfer which has the aim or effect of violating or undermining any of their rights.
(d) Any form of forced assimilation or integration.
(e) Any form of propaganda designed to promote or incite racial or ethic discrimination directed against them.

Article 9

Indigenous peoples and individuals have the right to belong to an indigenous community or nation, in accordance with the traditions and customs of the community or nation concerned. No discrimination of any kind may arise from the exercise of such a right.

Posted by: pez at November 4, 2007 2:59 PM

Posted by: zoltix

First and foremost it is a race issue for them - many of their supporters still use the word 'paki' and muslim interchangeably.

And what is wrong in calling them Pakis when Pakis take great pride in calling themselves Pakis

http://illustratedpig.blogspot.com/2007/10/paki-pride-paki-pride-is-ma-mind-paki.html

__________________________________________________

Posted by: Paul

Why don't you take you Race Card and shove it where the sun doesn't shine?

And where might that be wise guy

Maybe you should educate yourself a bit about racism before you whine about BNP and talking about playing the race card

http://illustratedpig.blogspot.com/2007/10/hard-look-at-racism.html

Posted by: shiva at November 4, 2007 3:28 PM

SHIEK YER MAMI about the BNP's Nick Griffin:

"The man makes sense. He could be Churchill's reincarnation."

I rest my case folks.

Posted by: Cornelius

You never had a case, Cornelius.

Now tell me, Cornelius: Have you bothered to listen to what Nick Griffen has to say? Why do you come here and poison the well when you don't even bother to inform yourself and then engage in informed criticism? What is your counter-argumentation?

You are the typical lemming who follows the mob.

I post it one more time, here. Just for you:

http://sheikyermami.com/2007/11/04/nick-griffith-the-islamization-of-europe/

Cruzado: prove it. You throw acid and accusations without backing it up. No good.

Zoltix: same goes for you.

Moris sez:

It nauseated me when Gordon Brown (then the Chancellor of the Exchequor) came out and announced that [as Nick Griffin had been found not guilty] the laws needed to be changed to ensure future convictions. The tactics of a tyranny and a banana republic to outlaw free speech and the fight against Islamification.

Couldn't agree more. That's what we're up against. We need all the help we can get.

Daffersd: Thank you.

'Smartgrowthadvocate' sez:

'Get used to living in harmony with our Muslim neighbors. They're the new Europe and more are coming, like it or not.'

Me thinks you are exactly what we are fighting. No, we are not ready so submit.

eloivsdiablo, granny, Leon, Shiva:

me thinks we're becoming increasingly infiltrated. Hard to say how many of the apologists for Islam are actually far left wimps or hardcore Islamofascist agit props.

It will sort itself out. As for me, anyone who doesn't come up with compelling arguments and uses smears like 'Nazi/racist/fascist/Islamophobe' to discredit us or any movement against Islam, is not one of us, but one of them.

We have to draw the line somewhere.

Posted by: sheik yer'mami at November 4, 2007 3:45 PM

"The BNP is a group of pathetic, hooliganistic bunch of losers. In a way it attracts the same sort of people that convert to Islam (social misfits)."

you forgot to add "knuckle dragging Nazis" in your ramble.

Posted by: leonthepigfarmer at November 4, 2007 3:56 PM

SmartGrowthAdvocate

I live within a couple of miles of an “Asian area” and have done so for 30 years in which time my attitude was one of 10 per cent xenophobia and 90 per cent indifference. Then my work happened take me into one of these areas and perhaps you can enlighten me on the correct liberal attitude to the following experience.

I called on a Polish woman in her eighties who was the last white woman in a very long street of “Asians”. She had been a forced labourer in Germany during the war (for the nazis) and told me “Germans baddest people in the world, I city girl, they send me to milk cow, not give me food for a three day till I learned”.

Our Asian citizens like to stay together and thought so highly of this not particularly salubrious street that they were prepared to pay above market price for any property there. But she did not wish to leave because she had been there since she came to England in 1946 so they tried to encourage her by occasionally throwing bricks through her front window and an shouting “F*** off out of our street you white bitch and sell us your house!” Naturally she reported to this to the police and as she told us; “Police say they can do nothing too many Pakistani” she was right of course. She then bowed her head tugging a forelock and asked “All time in Germany I must do this to Germans, now all time I must do same to Pakistani - what the difference?”

Let me assure you this is not an isolated case and non-Asians in nearby streets were suffering less violent but no less continuous pressure to move out. Unless of course they were “hard cases” what might crudely be called “white trash” (BNP supporters?) they wisely left them alone - for the moment.

I do not blame you of course because unless you spend some time in one of these areas the press is so heavily censored you simply do not know what is going on. This very morning one of Britain's leading political commentators stated that he could not understand why people were worried by immigration. Where he lived in west London white people were practically a rarity and there was no trouble there. He seemed unaware that his salary of at least ten times the national average made his situation somewhat different to that of elderly white people living among illiterate Asian peasants in heart a our rich vibrant multicultural society.

BTW The term "peasants". My interpreter was at pains to tell me he was "Not like these people" and the chief liaison officer was driven to distraction by endless stream of public information leaflets/posters in Urdu “But I keep telling them they are a waste of money, because they are all illiterate!”

Tell you what, don't think about it, don't try and enlighten me just tell me I don't know what I'm talking about. If that doesn't make you feel better just tell me I’m a fascist.

BTW until I went to work there I sympathised with the Palestinians, now I back Israel 100%.

Ginro

Thanks

Posted by: Fred at November 4, 2007 4:01 PM

Typo!

"in the heart of our rich vibrant multicultural society"

Posted by: Fred at November 4, 2007 4:06 PM

An incredible amount of either self-hating whites always emerge to these discussions, or jews.

I might ask, how many of these "OH MY, BNP IS NAZI" posters happen to be jews? The jews are very vocal about their opposition to islam, when in truth the torah teaches the same things as the quran.

Posted by: loler at November 4, 2007 4:22 PM

Shiva, maybe you should educate yourself about the English language before you respond to comments. I didn't whine about the BNP for the simple reason that I didn't make any reference to them at all!

I simply pointed out that your comment that "as long as we are critical of Islam we are racists" is ludicrous. You must be mentally ill if you think that any critism whatsoever of a religion that causes as much death and destruction worldwide as Islam is simply down to racism. You bigots seem to think that you can squash any reasonable and intelligent comment on the subject by playing the "Race Card". Sorry, pal, you can't.

As I pointed out (if you had bothered to read my post), a large number of muslims are opposing this group Tablighi Jamaat and their proposed Super Mosque. Are they all racist too?

Posted by: Paul at November 4, 2007 4:23 PM

More and more battles like this will continue to occur in non-Muslim countries as long as Islamists think they can get their way. The Islamists should understand that people who are not Muslim have reservations about the building of a megamosque. If such a mosque did not attract terrorists, the rest of us would feel more at ease. However, terrorists will probably use that mosque for their own evil purposes.

Posted by: Christian at November 4, 2007 4:25 PM

Loler:

Wow. That's so ridiculous that I'm torn between deleting it because it's offensive, and leaving it, because it's just ridiculous-- embarrassingly so, I think.

Marisol Seibold
Jihad Watch News Editor

Posted by: MarisolJW at November 4, 2007 4:30 PM

Fred....thanks very much for that post. I felt moved by your story and so so sorry for that Polish woman and any others caught in the same evil whirlwind. I too once sympathised with the Palestinians but since 9/11 I've been totally supportive of Israel. I've educated myself and read numerous books on Islam and kept up with this site. I've realised how utterly brainwashed I was by the MSM in Britain, primarily the BBC and the Guardian when really I knew nothing of the history of Islam, Israel and the Jewish people. I swallowed whole the Big Lie about Israeli 'occupation' and the myth of the so-called Palestinian people.
I have a close friend who is Israeli but lives in Holland and her experiences are strikingly similar to yours in London....constantly faced with Islamic anti-Semitism. And she lost all her father's side of the family in Auschwitz. It's truly tragic what is going on in Europe these days and so reminiscent of the 30s.

Posted by: johndoe at November 4, 2007 5:09 PM

Thanks Marisol, as loler's comment is important to keep around so that we can know and confront our enemy.

loler, I am a Christian, but I completely support the Jews and Israel. Islam, on the other hand, I DO NOT SUPPORT, because of it's evil ideologies/evil prophet, Muhammad.

I hope and pray that this MONSTROSITY of a mosque is never built in London. But if Muslims insist on erecting this eye sore, then I would rather see it built in the heart of the middle east where it belongs; since ridding our world of evil Islam may not be possible, but containing it is.

Islam be gone!

Posted by: champ at November 4, 2007 5:13 PM

Yes, another end of of this mess are the christians. I pray to the FSM that he would wipe out all religions because they bring nothing but misery anywhere they are found.

Posted by: loler at November 4, 2007 5:34 PM

Marisol, thank you for supporting free speech. Too many still think that something they disagree with, they have the right to silence.

Posted by: loler at November 4, 2007 5:39 PM

this post has become silly...and now for something completely different...
http://www.openskywebdesign.com/cms/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=1

Posted by: leonthepigfarmer at November 4, 2007 5:41 PM

Recommend this article by Roger Scruton

Should he have spoken?

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1696507/posts

Posted by: DP111 at November 4, 2007 5:51 PM

"As long as we are critical of Islam we are racists whether or not we become bedfellows of the likes of BNP,SD and Vlaams Belang." Posted by: shiva

1. Speak for yourself.

2. Islam is not a race.

3. I am not a racist.

4. I will never become a bedfellow of the groups you mentioned or of any racist group.

5. The fight against the Islamification of our nations has nothing whatsoever to do with the colour of anyone's skin or their ancestors' country(ies) of origin.

Posted by: Josephine at November 4, 2007 6:05 PM

"I would like to thank The Sheik for putting this up on his blog..." Posted by: shiva

In which the question is asked:
"Could Griffin be the new Churchill?"

*spit*

Posted by: Josephine at November 4, 2007 6:11 PM

"The BNP goal is to secure a future for the indigenous people..." Posted by: eloivsdiablo

Who are the indigenous people of Britain?

Posted by: Josephine at November 4, 2007 6:16 PM

Get used to living in harmony with our Muslim neighbors. They're the new Europe and more are coming, like it or not. Better than the alternative of racist facism and Flemish "separatists".

SmartGrowthAdvocate -

There is no 'living in harmony' with muslims. Haven't you been paying attention?

There will ALWAYS be unrest. ALWAYS. Islam has bloody borders.

There will be some peaceful, but there will ALWAYS be the extremely faithful pushing for no democracy and for all people to be muslims.

And fight them until all believe in Allah and Allah's prophet...

...that means you.

Posted by: Borg at November 4, 2007 6:23 PM

Marisol:

Thank you for not deleting loler's post. Let it stand, to give others an insight into the real mindset of the BNP.

Posted by: Matamoros at November 4, 2007 6:28 PM

"An incredible amount of either self-hating whites always emerge to these discussions, or jews.

"I might ask, how many of these "OH MY, BNP IS NAZI" posters happen to be jews? The jews are very vocal about their opposition to islam, when in truth the torah teaches the same things as the quran."
Posted by: loler

This anti-Semitic post was brought to you by a supporter of the BNP.

"Coincidence? I think not."

Posted by: Josephine at November 4, 2007 6:31 PM

Folks please be aware that lefties love to use the race card in situations like this to divide people.
And also it wouldn't suprise me that some of the race card posters here are lefties trying to mess things up.

Posted by: waltc at November 4, 2007 6:39 PM

waltc - Silence implies consent.

Posted by: Josephine at November 4, 2007 6:51 PM

DP111

A very interesting link.

Essentially we have a respected academic and I believe in atheist, saying that Enoch Powell’s predictions 40 years ago were perfectly correct. Not only that, he said it a year ago since when he has neither been fired nor driven from public life which is the normal fate of people who say such things in Britain.

This is an example of the British class system because a Conservative Party election candidate was fired today for saying the same thing in a newspaper column last week. The sacking has of course the full approval of the MSM.

Posted by: Fred at November 4, 2007 7:02 PM

"Who are the indigenous people of Britain?"

northern europeans of anglo-saxon celtic heritage.

does that answer your question?

or is that racist to imply that the UK, like the amazon rainforest tribes, does have an actual indigenous population.

btw, what school did you go to? you were never taught early british history? i'm shocked!

the british have an intrinsic folk lore and ancient history and culture. just visit lincolnshire as an example, watch the morris men in their ancient ritual dance, look for hidden stone circles and burial mounds dotted all over the ancient countryside. then listen to the diatribe from leftists to islamics telling me that i have no culture and no real indigenous people.
stop being racist towards us please, we have our rights so please respect the indigenous british race.

Posted by: leonthepigfarmer at November 4, 2007 7:15 PM

Josephine, do you want me to quote scripture from the Torah and contrast it to similiar text found in the Quran?

Posted by: loler at November 4, 2007 7:21 PM

loler

please dont bother. the jewish people are a great race and are rich in family and decency and conservatism. you cannot ever compare them to islamic jihadists or even the muslim faith.

Posted by: leonthepigfarmer at November 4, 2007 7:33 PM

"'Who are the indigenous people of Britain?'

"northern europeans of anglo-saxon celtic heritage."

Posted by: leonthepigfarmer

I'm sorry, Leon, you're going to be further shocked when I ask you to break that down for me.

I grew up and went to school in Canada. In Ontario, I was taught early Canadian history. In Quebec, I was taught the history of Quebec.

Most of my ancestors were from England, Scotland and Ireland but I can only research as far back as the 1790s. So how do I know if I qualify as indigenous British? How do I know how far back my ancestors lived in Great Britain? How can I tell if some of them immigrated there at some point? How can anyone tell? I do have a Scottish complexion and hair colour; is that sufficient?

My 4th great-grandfather, born in England circa 1795, was Jewish. It's safe to assume that, at some point, his parents or ancestors immigrated to England (because weren't all of the Jews kicked out at some point and not allowed back in for a long time?). I don't know which country his ancestors came from.

So would this Jewish ancestor, and his ancestors before him, disqualify me as being "pur lain" British?

I know this is a stupid question (and I won't check Wiki; I'll ask you instead) but are Italians included in the group you listed?

Posted by: Josephine at November 4, 2007 7:47 PM

"Josephine, do you want me to quote scripture from the Torah and contrast it to similiar text found in the Quran?" Posted by: loler

The Koran is a bastardized version of parts of the Old and New Testaments. Mohammed threw bits and pieces of a few religions into the pot, mixed them up, added his own convenient revelations and created Islam.

That's got nothing whatsoever to do with your comment which was, in effect, saying that Judaism = Islam, therefore Jews can't complain about Islam or the BNP.

I'm not interested in your comparison of verses. I've got a copy of the Bible and a copy of the Koran and I'm learning all about the bits that Mohammed cribbed.

Any similarities between Islam and any other religion are due to Mohammed's lack of originality or his desire to co-opt existing faith groups.

The essence of Judaism and the essence of Christianity, in their core tenets and texts, as well as in the way they are practiced by the vast majority of their adherents, are vastly and fundamentally different from Islam.

Posted by: Josephine at November 4, 2007 8:00 PM

josephine

heres a goodish link regarding the british "race". http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/1288231.stm

Posted by: leonthepigfarmer at November 4, 2007 8:28 PM

josephine

finally im not a racial purest, i dont think that there is a pure race on this planet. remember, we all came from 1 tribe hundreds of thousands of years ago! i would say that im a nationalist not a racial purest, but there is a distinctive people that live on the british isles and have adapted to the island and have lived there for 2 thousand years. surely they get the first say in how they run their little island? the same way that i would respect another countries laws and cultures. you probably are british canadian. judaism i believe doesnt affect your nationalistic make up. hope this is clear?

Posted by: leonthepigfarmer at November 4, 2007 8:34 PM

Smart Growth Advocate,

Are you serious arguing that letting Europe turn into an Islamic caliphate would be better than siding with 'racists'?

No one needs to respond to me, but consider the following quietly to yourself. When did racism become the unforgivable sin? Several of the political parties discussed on this thread want only to preserve their people and their way of life and protect it from Islamic hegemony. Yet these are applied the label of 'racists' by those sitting comfortably in front of their computers in the United States. IT IS NOT RACISM TO LOVE ONE'S OWN PEOPLE! It is rational, logical, and good. It is basic common sense accepted in every other part of the world but the West.

If the BNP, provided it can clean up its antisemitism, seeks to work toward preserving the British as an ethnic group against Islamic supremacism, it is their right to do so and we have no right to condemn them. To simply say that some of these nationalist parties are seeking to usher in a Fourth Reich of some type, complete with it's systematic death camps, ovens and all, is completely beyond the pale. You don't have to support them, but please avoid the Leftists tactics of a) guilt by association and b) labeling them 'racist' or 'fascist', which is nowadays equivalent to labeling someone a witch in medieval Europe. It has to stop. The English people live on English soil, and they have the right to do so without absurd demonizing from armchair pundits in the U.S. and without having to recite "la illa la Allah..."

Posted by: PRCalDude at November 4, 2007 8:48 PM

Leon -- Thank you for the link and comments. It is getting late and I am tired, so I will take a gander tomorrow.

Posted by: Josephine at November 4, 2007 8:57 PM

PRCalDude -- I agree that every country should have the right to protect itself from Islamization.

What, in your mind, is the difference between the ethnic British and those who are first, second or third generation British (excluding fundamentalist Muslims who clearly are opposed to our freedom and democracy)?

- Ethnicity?
- Religion?
- Heritage?

If the more recent British are mentally and emotionally fully British but not ethnically British, would you separate them into two groups? Would it still be us and them?

If, as you say, the BNP were to "clean up" its anti-Semitism, would it not also defend and include the second group? Say, for example, Brits whose ancestors originally came from Jamaica? Or would the BNP's focus still be on protecting those ethnic British?

Did the BNP exist before Islam became a serious issue for Britain?

It is late, so I will check for your response tomorrow.

Posted by: Josephine at November 4, 2007 9:11 PM

Why is it that Islam in its modern and manifest form never has to answer the charge of racism, despite that it is the racist, religionist and anti-human major religion on the planet?

Christians and Jews are the descendants of apes and pigs, according to Islam. Any Jew is a Zionist worthy of being beheaded o the spot. CAIR et al. espouse media, legal and other forms of persecution against anyone who is not Muslim.

So who is "-ist" in all this? Islam is the ultimate hate machine.

Posted by: Wimbledon Womble at November 4, 2007 9:13 PM

NO mosques in the West until after a Church, Synagogue or Temple is allowed in Mecca.

And all mosques already in the West should be converted to museums, like the Hagia Sofia, until then.

Posted by: profitsbeard at November 4, 2007 9:37 PM

I think Maetamoron is a watch dog on this site looking to defame anything that bears the initials BNP. The Shiek had a wonderful speech given by Nick Griffin at Clemson, we've watched Griffin being arrested for expressing the same views that most of us express on this site. We heard PM Brown saying he would change the laws to make sure Griffin is put away next time.

No party in England hits the nail on the head when it comes to Islam but morons are willing to dismiss them for some racist baggage that they may have carried years ago. Heroes rise to the occasion in all different forms at a time of crisis and Britain has its head in an Islamic noose. Take Nick Griffin for his word and I hope his word spreads throughout Europe and I'm glad his word came to America...and Metamoros, I wear no Nazi insignia, my father fought against them.

Posted by: Briars at November 4, 2007 9:39 PM

Storage manager

It was a nice try for you to use Robert's comment as a way to prove the he has aligned himself on a side in the dispute between LGF and a number of the Counter Jihad Europa participants.

Your claim that Charles Johnson is on equal footing with Jihad Watch in fighting the global jihad is laughable. His latest deleting and banning fest of those of us who wish to share our ideas with ALL of sides of the political spectrum shows Charles Johnson is no defender, or advocate of freedom of speech, much less a staunch defender of western and national cultural values that the jihadist wish to eliminate.

Robert's sole comment was about the BNP. No representative at the BNP attended that conference that I am aware.

It is a shame YOU bring this dispute into this forum. Robert's opinion is his own. He has obviously chosen to stay out of these blog wars as is his right. Yet, you deemed it preferable to try to enlist him as a supporter of one side, your side. I see he continues to concentrate on continuing the fight in the way he has always done since I've come here, and expect that he will do, by focusing on the dangers and threats first. If he is to remain neutral, fine. But your tactic needed to be addressed and now I am happy to do that.

By Charles Johnson's reasoning and methods of argument Robert can now be found guilty of racism by simply allowing many of the comments here to remain. All of us know that such a claim is blatantly false and that method of argument is fallacious. Yet, it doesn't stop Charles Johnson from using this method to defame people by accusations of racism when he knows nothing about them.

And how convenient of you to use this forum to express your views and have exchanges with many europeans he defames, who believe in the value of the counter jihad europa movement and that their cultures, ethnicities and histories are worth defending.

You can't have this exchange at LGF so you come here. I notice your ID and that you are a regular poster at LGF. You are aware of Charles Johnson's virtual rampage of banning comments identical to ones being posted here and of the same posters here who dare challenged his statements. Many who post here regularly have been banned at LGF, including me, Sheik yer mami, Daffersd, for engaging in the same type of discussion you see in this thread. We were banned with the additional insult of being labeled "rascist".

Tell Charles Johnson of this thread here at JW.
Tell him no posts have been deleted, No poster banned. (Marisol, if I am incorrect please inform). It is a model to use in the proper exercise of the rights free speech and exchange of ALL ideas. In particular, see loler's highly offensive posts, still available for all to see.

Our European friends have a problem. Their governments, instead of offering solutions, exacerbate the problem by limiting their rights to free speech and dissent. You and Charles Johnson do not offer any ideas or suggestions on solutions to that problem but go to extraordinary means to make the problem worse. Now, those participants have been forced to defend themselves from Charles Johnson's wild, careless accusations and childish methods of argumentation.

It would have been a fair comment to point out to observers about some of the Counter Jihad Europa participants' backgrounds. But that was not his message, at least not the way I and many others interpreted. And now, its become his personal obsession to dig up as much dirty laundry he can, and defame the very people who need the assistance in fighting the global jihad.

Go back to LGF, storage manager. If you can be heard above the din of that echo chamber and tell them many here don't buy that story about LGF "leading the fight against the global jihad".

Posted by: USorThem at November 4, 2007 10:19 PM

USorThem--

With apologies to George Thorogood (and John Lee Hooker):

One deletion, one edit, one banning.

(Banning and deletion on the same poster. No substantive point in the post-- venom and foul language.)

Posted by: MarisolJW at November 4, 2007 10:29 PM

The Koran is a bastardized version of parts of the Old and New Testaments. Mohammed threw bits and pieces of a few religions into the pot, mixed them up, added his own convenient revelations and created Islam.

Posted by: aynrandgirl at November 4, 2007 10:31 PM

Circular firing squad anyone?

Posted by: interestinconundrum at November 4, 2007 10:38 PM

NO mosques in the West until after a Church, Synagogue or Temple is allowed in Mecca. Posted by: profitsbeard

I would change that statement ever so slightly:

NO mosques in the West until after an equal number of Churches, Synagogues and Temples are permitted in Mecca.

Perhaps then, I can be convinced there is such a thing as "moderate Islam". Certainly, thats not a concept I plan on holding my breath for.

Posted by: heroyalwhyness at November 4, 2007 10:47 PM

What, in your mind, is the difference between the ethnic British and those who are first, second or third generation British (excluding fundamentalist Muslims who clearly are opposed to our freedom and democracy)?

- Ethnicity?
- Religion?
- Heritage?

Not much, in my mind. If they consider themselves loyal British subjects, they should vote BNP right along with the rest.

I don't fully understand the demographic problems over there. I do know that a lot of ethnically British are leaving, and a lot of eastern Europeans, Muslimms, and Indians moving in. The eastern Europeans can just leave if they want, as can the Indians, because a lot of them still have plenty of ties to their old countries. The Muslims aren't going anywhere and the British belong there. I'm not sure how much the Indians and eastern Europeans there would be willing to help out in some counter-jihad efforts, but my guess is that their involvement has been nil up to this point.

I don't think the BNP is some kind of an ethnic purity checker, and I'm not defending them per se. I am defending the concept of sticking up for one's own ethnic group through the ballot box. For crying out loud, every other group is allowed their identity politics.

Posted by: PRCalDude at November 4, 2007 10:56 PM

"In Newham, the borough where the mosque would stand, Alan Craig, the leader of the Christian Peoples Alliance Party in the East End, started a one-man campaign against the mosque a year ago that has grown and gained national prominence"....from headline.

One man/woman really can make a difference.

Posted by: champ at November 5, 2007 12:25 AM

The only good thing about mentioning the BNP in a story on JW is that it brings all the maggots out of the apple - all the closet white supremacists, anti-Semites, racial obsessives, religious weirdos and all the other oddballs who have latched themselves on to the counter jihad cause.

The ones for whom anti-Islamism is just another string to their already over-strung bows. The people who recognise that, yes, there is a problem with Islam, but who still have their eyes firmly fixed on what they in their own minds have identified as the real threat, be it “the Jews”, “race mixers“, “vice and immorality”, “International Socialism” or some shadowy secretive cabal that they’ve convinced themselves is really running the world. Think Dale Gribble, but without the laughs.

These people bring nothing to the cause but can cause it enormous damage. If we allow the counter jihad to be hijacked by political extremists for their own ends, then all is lost.

Take this story, for example. Robert’s original post mentioned the person who really is spearheading opposition to the mega mosque: Cllr Alan Craig, leader of the UK’s Christian Peoples Alliance party. I’ve met Alan Craig, and know his party. It’s membership and support - certainly in Cllr Craig’s constituency - is largely made up of black African Christian immigrants. People who have seen Islamism up close in their home countries, and want to stop its rise in their adopted home.

What do we say to these people? They share our language, our concerns and our values, they are committed to and practice the Christian religion, and are opposed to Islam. But they have dark skins. Can we expect them to stand alongside us if we offer support to a party that despises them and views them as second-class citizens? Can we stand alongside them, while backing the BNP, without being appalling two-faced hypocrites? The answer, of course, is no.

Offering succour to the BNP, or any other white supremacist / neo- Nazi party, may gain the CJ a few extra adherents, but it will alienate the critical mass - liberals, Jews, homosexuals, non-white Christians, Asians, ex-Muslims, mainstream conservatives etc - that we need to win over if we are going to defeat the Islamist threat.

Let’s face it, when a lot of posters on here talk about “preserving our Judaeo-Christian heritage” what they really mean is “keeping it white”. It doesn’t matter to them if immigrants are committed Christians - if they’re not white then they cannot belong. The problem with this dream of an all-white Britain or an all-white Europe is that not only is it a hopelessly unachievable fantasy, but that in the real world it actually puts people off.

I know that the BNP fans on here will find this hard to believe, but the 99.3% of the electorate who neglected to support the party in the 2005 General Election did so not because they were “lefto-fascists” or part of some huge international conspiracy, but because they found the party totally unappealing. To be the only party (then) campaigning against mass immigration, in a nation where something like 80% of people say they are opposed to mass immigration, and yet to receive just 0.7% of the vote - surely that must tell even the most ardent BNP fanatic that something is critically wrong with the party‘s approach?

Oh, and by the way Briars, I’m not a “watch dog” looking to defame the BNP, just an ordinary Jewish Londoner who has been on the receiving end of “nationalist patriotism” both as a child and as an adult, and who will oppose any group or individual - neo-Nazi, Muslim or religious oddball - who demonises me. If you have a problem with that, tough.

Posted by: Matamoros at November 5, 2007 12:35 AM

Looks like the People's Christian Alliance Party might be the counter-Jihad party for Britain, assuming that they do what the BNP does in directly naming Islam as the enemy. The 'People's' in the name does suggest Socialist underpinnings: anybody confirm this? Also, how are they about including under their umbrella Jews and other non-Christian Infidels who are anti-Islamic?

One thing, Matamoros - I don't know what, if anything, Judeo-Christian means in Britain, but here in the US, it implies a non-secular coalition, where Secular Progressive Athiests are the enemy: nothing to do with White or non-White. As a Hindu, there was a time that I wasn't too thrilled about that myself, despite being on the Right on every other issue. However, the advances that Islam has made in US society - be it footbasins, or in my last job, the sight of a Muslim colleague washing his feet in my office restroom sink - convinced me that rooting for a secular/agnostic/non-Judeo Christian establishment was only going to make Islamic inroads into US life easier, rather than harder. Let's face it - US heritage is largely Judeo-Christian based, just as Israeli heritage is Jewish based, or Indian heritage is Hindu based. This doesn't imply that non Christians/Jews/Hindus (in each example) don't have rights to practice their religions, let alone be deported from these respective countries: all it implies is that the religious part of the cultural underpinnings of the countries should be supported, if that country is not to end up Islamizing.

Like I've said in the past, I'm all for supporting other parties in Britain that are willing to be as aggressive about Islam as the BNP, without endorsing racist or other controversial attributes of the latter: UKIP could be one example, and this People's Christian Alliance Party is another. I do see the point of those above who argue that if the BNP is the only anti-Islamic party in the field, one ought to hold one's nose and support them to make it understood to the rest of the field that there is a political price to be paid for grovelling before the ummah.

Posted by: Infidel Pride at November 5, 2007 2:47 AM

loler, the Torah does not teach the same thing as the Quran, have you read both? Obviously not...

Matamoros, come on think about it, your saying someone like me is a "closet white supremacists, anti-Semites, racial obsessives, religious weirdos and all the other oddballs who have latched themselves on to the counter jihad cause"

Well I have always supported Israel and the Jewish people, and never again means exactly that to me. However I support the development of a political movement in Europe to defend certain principals which I detailed in an earlier post, I expect that at times it will be rough, and there will be issues with certain people, but does that mean that we do not bother at all because a very small number of people people might have Neo-Nazi tendencies, this is the real world where the cards are already stacked against us with the fascist left and Islamics both out to get us. It is not some sort of idealistic heaven with everything about to fall into our pure laps.

People seem to be following the PC Nationalist is a White Supremist line, it is not as simple as that.

UsorThem is an American who has understood the situation in Europe, unlike the lizard herd who take joy in Europe falling to Islam and attack anyone who stands up for Europe as racists, it has made me realise that when we end up having to fight, we might also end up on the receiving end of US bombs if these people are in power in the USA...

Posted by: Daffersd at November 5, 2007 3:07 AM

Matamoros - excellent post, that clearly shows the secret agenda of the BNP.
The BNP's real concern is with 'whiteness' rather than countering jihad.

It's overall nature and structure is totalitarian - it even has it's own cult of the leader. In this respect it is, in fact, very similar to islam. Although they have made minor changes to their policies over the years this is one feature that has remained constant from the 30's through to the National Front of the 70's and now the BNP of today.

If you ask a BNP member about an 'indigenous' white British person that converts to islam, they have no real answer nor concern. They know little about the real nature of islam and can't use their 'go back to your own country' slogan in this case.
When you talk to them, you realise how unsophisticated they are. Their conversations are littered with 'nig' 'paki' 'jew boy' 'puff' and their world view really is one of black versus white.

Posted by: zoltix at November 5, 2007 3:19 AM

DP111, that was an excellent link, thanks.

Posted by: Daffersd at November 5, 2007 3:58 AM

How stupid we all are falling for this wedge political issue? Someone is trying to divide us all.

I don't like a lot of what is going one. But divided we can't win.
Don't ask me for the right answer. I haven't got it other than what I said above.

Just today my sister discovered she has a white supremacist working at the office. She almost keeled over. He really believes the "Jews control the world" and has a university degree.

She had to explain there are only 14 million Jews on the planet - he didn't know that.

He was a true believer in the new World Order and the Illuminati.
Heaven help us all!
(is you haven't come across any illuminati sites please look at them).

Posted by: Gramfan at November 5, 2007 6:02 AM

loler:'An incredible amount of either self-hating whites always emerge to these discussions, or jews.'

No self-hating Jews emerge then loler?

Last time I looked I was white ... and of Jewish ethnicity. Should I self-hate myself for this double whammie perhaps?

Erm... No, I don't think I will. And I'll continue voting for the 'Evil, Bigoted, Racist, Nazi Fascists of the BNP' Terrible thing democracy no? :oo

As far as I can see, the only self-hating honkies out there are those of the far left who swallow the multi-culti dream scenario where we all live together in peace and harmony. Ain't goona happen. Ever. They are played for useful idiots by the Islamic fundamentalists but can't see it. No surprises there then eh?

Posted by: Joshua at November 5, 2007 7:16 AM

PRCalDude -- I think I see your point. A lot of people are leaving England.

We'll have to agree to disagree on groups such as the BNP.

I'm not trying to pick on you but I'm having a hard time with this:

"I am defending the concept of sticking up for one's own ethnic group through the ballot box. For crying out loud, every other group is allowed their identity politics."

It's the ethnicity thing. Can we separate the colour of our skin from our shared citizenship? I don't "vote white".

I look around me in Toronto and I see many people of different ethnic origins. Just from observation, I would say that white people are a minority here. If the folks I see are recent immigrants, then obviously they come from a different culture (but it's not obvious how different). If they've been here a while, then they probably share the same culture, plus their own family's heritage, which gets diluted over time.

Of all of the people in Toronto and Canada, the only ones I am concerned about are those Muslims who take their Islam seriously enough to want to force it on non-Muslims. They're the only ones who pose a real threat to me enjoying my Canadian culture. (Don't get me started on socialists and others who are aiding and abetting this threat.)

My politics focus on democracy, freedom and human rights. Ethnicity is not the focal point for me. Once we focus on the colour of our skin, we are separating ourselves from a large part of humankind and from many of our fellow countrymen.

I do think that England has been taking in too many immigrants. The change has happened too quickly. Many immigrants are failing to assimilate. It sounds as if some government policies favour immigrants over "native British" (meaning white people born in Britain whose families have been in Britain for a long time). That is wrong; it's racist.

With groups such as the BNP, is the fight solely against Islamization or is it a fight to keep Britain "British", meaning ethnically British, meaning white, anglo-saxon, celtic, etc., which happens to coincide nicely with the fight against Islamization?

Michael Coren wrote an interesting column in Saturday's Toronto Sun about the consequences of not requiring immigrants to assimilate:

http://www.torontosun.com/News/Columnists/Coren_Michael/2007/11/03/4627714-sun.php

Posted by: Josephine at November 5, 2007 8:14 AM

Matamoros:

You say that you are 'just an ordinary Jewish Londoner who has been on the receiving end of “nationalist patriotism” both as a child and as an adult, and who will oppose any group or individual - neo-Nazi, Muslim or religious oddball - who demonises me. If you have a problem with that, tough.'

What do you mean by "on the receiving end"? Do you mean you were physically attacked or verbally abused? When was that exactly? Were the culprits National Front supporters or just nutters (or both)? Bear in mind that the BNP now has no links with the National Front.

You claim to know a lot about the BNP - no doubt based on the lies and half-truths emanating from the relentless smear campaign run by the UK's leftist media - and are clearly bigoted against those with whom you disagree. Do you think that honest debate is possible when you refer to people you don't even know as "maggots out of the apple", "oddballs", "anti-Semites" (you remembered the capital "S" - well done!) and "religious weirdos"?

Yet again you have gleefully trotted out your catchphrase: "99.3% of people did not support the BNP in 2005".

But you neglect to mention the April 2006 YouGov poll regarding the popularity of BNP policies, the findings of which were published in the Daily Mail. See Most Britons actually support BNP policies:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/news.html?in_article_id=384167&in_page_id=1770

where you will find that:

59 per cent of people supported a halt to all further immigration to the UK - one of the BNP's main pledges - when they were not told of the far-right group's association with the policy.

Yet:

Among those who were told that it was a BNP commitment, support for the policy was only 48 per cent

and:

More than a third of people, 37 per cent, said they would seriously consider voting for the BNP's policies in an election. But identifying the BNP with the policies caused support to fall by 17 per cent

Clearly the BNP has a poor image. Why? Because it has been subjected to a relentless smear campaign - of which your ill-informed comments are yet another example.

You are so convinced that you are right, yet offer no solutions to the rise of Islam. The "mainstream" political parties (I know you are a Tory, by the way, as I've seen your monicker on a Tory web site) offer no solutions to the problem. Is Mr Cameron the new Churchill? I think not.

By the way, I support Israel and admire the Jewish people. And no - I don't have a "secret agenda" (to quote your friend zoltix) - this is what I truly believe. I saw the film Vengeance with Eric Bana (and read the book) and thought: good for you, Israel! - that's the way to do it.

I travelled past a synagogue in Elstree on Saturday and was amazed to see security guards outside. I had not realised that this is now common practice. I could be wrong, but I very much doubt that the threat of attacks by crazed BNP supporters are the reason.

Furthermore, my grandmother was ethnically cleansed from Sparkhill in Birmingham. Her street - which had been white working class up until the 1970s - changed (without her consent) to a Pakistani Muslim ghetto over the course of about a decade. A man (a Pakistani immigrant) broke into her house one night with the intention of attacking her. We know this because nothing was stolen. Luck