Dhimmi Watch: Christian leaders ask for Muslim forgiveness

November 26, 2007

Christian leaders ask for Muslim forgiveness

The signers are a veritable who's who of Christian leaders in the United States. And there's nothing essentially wrong with such a gesture: no community has a monopoly on evil, or is entirely free from it. But it is singularly unfortunate in this instance, since Muslim groups worldwide have never, in any context, offered a similar gesture. Where are the apologies for the jihad conquests and dhimmitude? They will, most assuredly, not be forthcoming.

From the Khaleej Times (thanks to all who sent this in):

ABU DHABI—Peaceful relations between Muslims and Christians stand as one of the central challenges of this century, according to leading Christian leaders.
Responding to an open letter in October signed by 138 leading Muslim scholars, clerics, and intellectuals from around the world, the Christian leaders also asked the Muslim world for forgiveness “We want to begin by acknowledging that in the past (e.g. in the Crusades) and in the present (e.g. in excesses of the “war on terror”) many Christians have been guilty of sinning against our Muslim neighbours. Before we “shake your hand” in responding to your letter, we ask forgiveness of the All-Merciful One and of the Muslim community around the world”, they said in the letter which was made available to the press here yesterday.

Following is the full text of the letter:

As members of the worldwide Christian community, we were deeply encouraged and challenged by the recent historic open letter signed by 138 leading Muslim scholars, clerics, and intellectuals from around the world. A Common Word Between Us and You identifies some core common ground between Christianity and Islam which lies at the heart of our respective faiths as well as at the heart of the most ancient Abrahamic faith, Judaism. Jesus Christ’s call to love God and neighbour was rooted in the divine revelation to the people of Israel embodied in the Torah (Deuteronomy 6:5; Leviticus 19:18). We receive the open letter as a Muslim hand of conviviality and cooperation extended to Christians worldwide. In this response we extend our own Christian hand in return, so that together with all other human beings we may live in peace and justice as we seek to love God and our neighbours.

Muslims and Christians have not always shaken hands in friendship; their relations have sometimes been tense, even characterized by outright hostility. Since Jesus Christ says, “First take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take the speck out of your neighbour’s eye” (Matthew 7:5), we want to begin by acknowledging that in the past (e.g. in the Crusades) and in the present (e.g. in excesses of the “war on terror”) many Christians have been guilty of sinning against our Muslim neighbours. Before we “shake your hand” in responding to your letter, we ask forgiveness of the All-Merciful One and of the Muslim community around the world.

Religious Peace-World Peace “Muslims and Christians together make up well over half of the world’s population. Without peace and justice between these two religious communities, there can be no meaningful peace in the world.” We share the sentiment of the Muslim signatories expressed in these opening lines of their open letter. Peaceful relations between Muslims and Christians stand as one of the central challenges of this century, and perhaps of the whole present epoch. Though tensions, conflicts, and even wars in which Christians and Muslims stand against each other are not primarily religious in character, they possess an undeniable religious dimension. If we can achieve religious peace between these two religious communities, peace in the world will clearly be easier to attain. It is therefore no exaggeration to say, as you have in A Common Word Between Us and You, that “the future of the world depends on peace between Muslims and Christians.” Common Ground What is so extraordinary about A Common Word Between Us and You is not that its signatories recognize the critical character of the present moment in relations between Muslims and Christians. It is rather a deep insight and courage with which they have identified the common ground between the Muslim and Christian religious communities.

What is common between us lies not in something marginal nor in something merely important to each. It lies, rather, in something absolutely central to both: love of God and love of neighbour.

Surprisingly for many Christians, your letter considers the dual command of love to be the foundational principle not just of the Christian faith, but of Islam as well. That so much common ground exists-common ground in some of the fundamentals of faith-gives hope that undeniable differences and even the very real external pressures that bear down upon us can not overshadow the common ground upon which we stand together. That this common ground consists in love of God and of neighbour gives hope that deep cooperation between us can be a hallmark of the relations between our two communities.

Love of God We applaud that A Common Word Between Us and You stresses so insistently the unique devotion to one God, indeed the love of God, as the primary duty of every believer. God alone rightly commands our ultimate allegiance. When anyone or anything besides God commands our ultimate allegiance-a ruler, a nation, economic progress, or anything else-we end up serving idols and inevitably get mired in deep and deadly conflicts. We find it equally heartening that the God whom we should love above all things is described as being Love. In the Muslim tradition, God, “the Lord of the worlds,” is “The Infinitely Good and All-Merciful.” And the New Testament states clearly that “God is love” (1 John 4:8). Since God’s goodness is infinite and not bound by anything, God “makes his sun rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous,” according to the words of Jesus Christ recorded in the Gospel (Matthew 5:45). For Christians, humanity’s love of God and God’s love of humanity are intimately linked. As we read in the New Testament: “We love because he [God] first loved us” (1 John 4:19). Our love of God springs from and is nourished by God’s love for us. It cannot be otherwise, since the Creator who has power over all things is infinitely good. Love of Neighbour We find deep affinities with our own Christian faith when A Common Word Between Us and You insists that love is the pinnacle of our duties toward our neighbours. “None of you has faith until you love for your neighbour what you love for yourself,” the Prophet Muhammad said. In the New Testament we similarly read, “whoever does not love [the neighbour] does not know God” (1 John 4:8) and “whoever does not love his brother whom he has seen cannot love God whom he has not seen” (1 John 4:20). God is love, and our highest calling as human beings is to imitate the One whom we worship. We applaud when you state that “justice and freedom of religion are a crucial part” of the love of neighbour. When justice is lacking, neither love of God nor love of the neighbour can be present. When freedom to worship God according to one’s conscience is curtailed, God is dishonoured, the neighbour oppressed, and neither God nor neighbour is loved. Since Muslims seek to love their Christian neighbours, they are not against them, the document encouragingly states. Instead, Muslims are with them. As Christians we resonate deeply with this sentiment. Our faith teaches that we must be with our neighbours-indeed, that we must act in their favor-even when our neighbours turn out to be our enemies. “But I say unto you,” says Jesus Christ, “Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, so that you may be children of your Father in heaven; for he makes his sun rise on the evil and on the good” (Matthew 5:44-45). Our love, Jesus Christ says, must imitate the love of the infinitely good Creator; our love must be as unconditional as is God’s-extending to brothers, sisters, neighbours, and even enemies. At the end of his life, Jesus Christ himself prayed for his enemies: “Forgive them; for they do not know what they are doing” (Luke 23:34).
The Prophet Muhammad did similarly when he was violently rejected and stoned by the people of Ta’if. He is known to have said, “The most virtuous behaviour is to engage those who sever relations, to give to those who withhold from you, and to forgive those who wrong you.” (It is perhaps significant that after the Prophet Muhammad was driven out of Ta’if, it was the Christian slave ‘Addas who went out to Muhammad, brought him food, kissed him, and embraced him.) The Task Before Us “Let this common ground”-the dual common ground of love of God and of neighbour-“be the basis of all future interfaith dialogue between us,” your courageous letter urges. Indeed, in the generosity with which the letter is written you embody what you call for. We most heartily agree. Abandoning all “hatred and strife,” we must engage in interfaith dialogue as those who seek each other’s good, for the one God unceasingly seeks our good. Indeed, together with you we believe that we need to move beyond “a polite ecumenical dialogue between selected religious leaders” and work diligently together to reshape relations between our communities and our nations so that they genuinely reflect our common love for God and for one another. Given the deep fissures in the relations between Christians and Muslims today, the task before us is daunting. And the stakes are great. The future of the world depends on our ability as Christians and Muslims to live together in peace. If we fail to make every effort to make peace and come together in harmony you correctly remind us that “our eternal souls” are at stake as well.

We are persuaded that our next step should be for our leaders at every level to meet together and begin the earnest work of determining how God would have us fulfill the requirement that we love God and one another. It is with humility and hope that we receive your generous letter, and we commit ourselves to labor together in heart, soul, mind and strength for the objectives you so appropriately propose.

*Harold W. Attridge, Dean and Lillian Claus Professor of New Testament, Yale Divinity School *Joseph Cumming, Director of the Reconciliation Program, Yale Center for Faith and Culture, Yale Divinity School *Emilie M. Townes, Andrew Mellon Professor of African American Religion and Theology, Yale Divinity School, and President-elect of the American Academy of Religion *Miroslav Volf, Founder and Director of the Yale Center for Faith and Culture, Henry B. Wright Professor of Theology, Yale Divinity School Martin Accad, Academic Dean, Arab Baptist Theological Seminary (Lebanon) Scott C. Alexander, Director, Catholic-Muslim Studies, Catholic Theological Union Roger Allen, Chair, Department of Near Eastern Languages and Civilizations, University of Pennsylvania Leith Anderson, President, National Association of Evangelicals Ray Bakke, Convening Chair, Evangelicals for Middle East Understanding Camillo Ballin, Bishop, Vicar Apostolic of Kuwait (Roman Catholic) Barry Beisner, Bishop, Episcopal Diocese of Northern California Federico Bertuzzi, President, PM Internacional, Latin America James A. Beverley, Tyndale Seminary, Canada Jonathan Bonk, Executive Director, Overseas Ministries Study Center Gerhard B?wering, Yale University Joseph Britton, Dean, Berkeley Divinity School at Yale John M. Buchanan, Editor/Publisher, The Christian Century Joe Goodwin Burnett, Bishop, Episcopal Diocese of Nebraska Samuel G. Candler, Dean, Cathedral of St. Philip, Atlanta Juan Carlos C?rdenas, Instituto Iberoamericano de Estudios Transculturales, Spain Joseph Castleberry, President, Northwest University Colin Chapman, Author David Yonggi Cho, Founder and Senior Pastor, Yoido Full Gospel Church, Seoul, Korea Richard Cizik, Vice President, National Association of Evangelicals Corneliu Constantineanu, Dean, Evangelical Theological Seminary, Croatia Robert E. Cooley, President Emeritus, Gordon-Conwell Theological Seminary Harvey Cox, Harvard Divinity School John D’Alton, President, Melbourne Institute for Orthodox Christian Studies, Australia Andr? Delbecq, University of Santa Clara Keith DeRose, Yale University Andr?s Alonso Duncan, CEO, Latinoamerica Global, A.C.

Diana L. Eck, Harvard University Bertil Ekstrom, Executive Director, Mission Commission, World Evangelical Alliance Mark U. Edwards, Jr., Senior Advisor to the Dean, Harvard Divinity School John Esposito, Director Prince Alwaleed Bin Talal Center for Muslim-Christian Understanding, Georgetown University David Ford, Regius Professor of Divinity, Cambridge University Timothy George, Dean, Beeson Divinity School, Samford University Roberto S. Goizueta, Boston College Bruce Gordon, University of St. Andrews William A. Graham, Dean, Harvard Divinity School Lynn Green, International Chairman, YWAM Frank Griffel, Yale University Edwin F. Gulick, Jr., Bishop, Episcopal Diocese of Kentucky David P. Gushee, President, Evangelicals for Human Rights Kim B. Gustafson, President, Common Ground Elie Haddad, Provost, Arab Baptist Theological Seminary, Lebanon L. Ann Hallisey, Hallisey Consulting and Counseling Paul D. Hanson, Harvard Divinity School Heidi Hadsell, President, Hartford Seminary David Heim, Executive Editor, The Christian Century Norman A. Hjelm, National Council of the Churches of Christ in the USA, retired Carl R. Holladay, Candler School of Theology, Emory University Joseph Hough, President, Union Theological Seminary, NY Bill Hybels, Founder and Senior Pastor, Willow Creek Community Church Nabeel T. Jabbour, Consultant, Professor, Colorado Shannon Sherwood Johnston, Bishop Coadjutor, Episcopal Diocese of Virginia David Colin Jones, Bishop Suffragan, Episcopal Diocese of Virginia Stanton L. Jones, Provost, Wheaton College, IL Tony Jones, National Coordinator, Emergent Village Riad A. Kassis, Theologian, Author, Consultant Paul Knitter, Union Theological Seminary, NY Manfred W. Kohl, Vice President of Overseas Council International, USA James A. Kowalski, Dean, Cathedral of Saint John the Divine, NY Sharon Kugler, University Chaplain, Yale University Peter Kuzmic, President, Evangelical Theological Faculty Osijek, Croatia Peter J. Lee, Bishop, Episcopal Diocese of Virginia Linda LeSourd Lader, President, Renaissance Institute Tim Lewis, President, William Carey Int’l University John B.Lindner, Yale Divinity School Duane Litfin, President, Wheaton College Greg Livingstone, Founder, Frontiers Albert C. Lobe, Interim Executive Director, Mennonite Central Committee Rick Love, International Director, Frontiers Douglas Magnuson, Bethel University Peter Maiden, International Coordinator, OM Danut Manastireanu, World Vision International, Iasi, Romania Harold Masback, III, Senior Minister, The Congregational Church of New Canaan, New Canaan, CT Donald M. McCoid, Evangelical Lutheran Church in America C. Douglas McConnell, Dean, School of Intercultural Studies, Fuller Theological Seminary Don McCurry, President, Ministries to Muslims Brian D. McLaren, Author, Speaker, Activist Kathleen E. McVey, Princeton Theological Seminary Judith Mendelsohn Rood, Biola University Steve Moore, President and CEO, The Mission Exchange (formerly EFMA) Douglas Morgan, Director, Adventist Peace Fellowship Richard Mouw, President, Fuller Theological Seminary Salim J. Munayer, Academic Dean, Bethlehem Bible College, Jerusalem Rich Nathan, Senior Pastor, Vineyard Church of Columbus David Neff, Editor in Chief and Vice-President, Christianity Today Media Group Alexander Negrov, President, St. Petersburg Christian University, Russia Richard R. Osmer, Princeton Theological Seminary George E. Packard, Bishop Suffragan for Chaplaincies of the Episcopal Church Greg H. Parsons, General Director, U.S. Center for World Mission Doug Pennoyer, Dean, School of Intercultural Studies, Biola University Douglas Petersen, Vanguard University of Southern California Sally Promey, Yale Divinity School Thomas P. Rausch, S.J., Loyola Marymount University David A. Reed, Wycliffe College, University of Toronto Neil Rees, International Director, World Horizons Cecil M. Robeck, Jr., Fuller Theological Seminary Leonard Rogers, Executive Director, Evangelicals for Middle East Understanding William L. Sachs, Director, Center for Reconciliation and Mission, Richmond Lamin Sanneh, Yale Divinity School Andrew Saperstein, Yale Center for Faith and Culture Robert Schuller, Founder, Crystal Cathedral and Hour of Power Elizabeth Sch?ssler Fiorenza, Harvard Divinity School Francis Sch?ssler Fiorenza, Harvard Divinity School William Schweiker, University of Chicago Donald Senior, C.P., President, Catholic Theological Union, Chicago C. L. Seow, Princeton Theological Seminary Imad Nicola Shehadeh, President, Jordan Evangelical Theological Seminary David W. and K. Grace Shenk, Eastern Mennonite Missions Marguerite Shuster, Fuller Theological Seminary John G. Stackhouse, Jr., Regent College, Vancouver Glen Stassen, Fuller Theological Seminary Andrea Zaki Stephanous, Vice President, Protestant Church in Egypt Wilbur P. Stone, Bethel University, MN John Stott, Rector Emeritus, All Souls Church, London Frederick J. Streets, Yeshiva University William Taylor, Global Ambassador, World Evangelical Alliance John Thomas, President and General Minister, United Church of Christ Iain Torrance, President, Princeton Theological Seminary Michael W. Treneer, International President, The Navigators, CO Geoff Tunnicliffe, International Director, World Evangelical Alliance George Verwer, Founder and former International Director, OM Harold Vogelaar, Lutheran School of Theology at Chicago Berten A. Waggoner, National Director, Association of Vineyard Churches Jim Wallis, President, Sojourners Rick Warren, Founder and Senior Pastor, Saddleback Church, and The Purpose Driven Life, Lake Forest, CA J. Dudley Woodberry, Dean Emeritus, Fuller School of International Studies, Fuller Theological Seminary Christopher J.H. Wright, International Director, Langham Partnership, London Robert R. Wilson, Associate Dean for Academic Affairs, Yale Divinity School Nicholas Wolterstorff, University of Virginia Godfrey Yogarajah, General Secretary, Evangelical Fellowship in Asia Community Council of the Sisters of the Precious Blood, Dayton, OH.

Posted by Robert at November 26, 2007 7:22 PM
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Comments
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Never had much interest in interfaith dialogue myself.

Posted by: GrennBeck

at November 26, 2007 8:25 PM

I guess if my school was a regular recipient of Islamic dough I might learn to love it.

Posted by: GrennBeck

at November 26, 2007 8:26 PM

"... the Christian leaders also asked the Muslim world for forgiveness “We want to begin by acknowledging that in the past (e.g. in the Crusades) and in the present (e.g. in excesses of the “war on terror”) many Christians have been guilty of sinning against our Muslim neighbours ... we ask forgiveness of the All-Merciful One and of the Muslim community around the world”, they said ..."

-----------------------------------------

These Christian leaders had better NOT assume they're speaking for me.

I decline to apologize for ANYTHING as regards Western responses to Islam and the horrors that this false "religion" has been inflicting upon the world for 1400 years.

Posted by: A_Nonny_Mouse

at November 26, 2007 8:28 PM

OK, I'll apologize for occasional rare overreactions to terrorism as soon as the Muslims of the world apologize for the terrorism they are practicing every day.

And I'll apologize for the Crusades as soon as Muslims apologize for the oppressive occupation of my wife's homeland Bulgaria and the killing of its national hero Vasil Levski.

Posted by: Karl Pov

at November 26, 2007 8:45 PM

These leaders don't speak for me either. I will not apologize to Islam. They should apologize to us for all atrocities they committed in the name of their moon god...

Posted by: The Resistance

at November 26, 2007 8:57 PM

That and $3 will get you a cup of Starbucks® coffee.

Posted by: interestinconundrum

at November 26, 2007 9:05 PM

Silly, stupid, naïve, dhimmi WABBITS!

Posted by: descendantofacrusader

at November 26, 2007 9:09 PM

Rick Warren, Founder and Senior Pastor, Saddleback Church, and The Purpose Driven Life
SATAN'S HAND SERVENT HIMSELF

Posted by: GrennBeck

at November 26, 2007 9:19 PM

Totally off the rails.

Why are they all so deluded? It won't be long now until Western nations will be required to pay compensation to the ummah Islamiyah for the crusades.

Something like the Indonesians holding their own rainforest for ransom and threaten us to pay up if we want to save it.

Posted by: sheik yer'mami

at November 26, 2007 9:20 PM

I could not help but notice that Pastor Deacon Fred of The Landover Baptist Church did not sign this letter.

Posted by: Pelayo

at November 26, 2007 9:39 PM

In the Christian world, a genuine seeking of forgiveness is a sign of character a sign of strength.

In the Islamic world, it will be seen solely as an admission. Their response to Christian doctrines such as "we are all sinners" is taken as a see---they admit they are wrong.

Asking forgiveness in this way will likely add fuel to Jihad furnace. Although we are all in need of forgiveness, asking for it in this context is not prudent.

As a general matter, conservative Christians are probably better informed on Jihad/Islam than the typical westerner.

As a general matter, less orthodox Christians seem more susceptible to the "all religions are the same" kumbaya delusions.

Posted by: JSobieski

at November 26, 2007 9:39 PM

It's will take six months for someone to write each one of these idiots a letter. They could have helped if they had provided their addresses, inconsiderate little twits.

On the other hand, there is enough information to ferret out their e-mail addresses.

If one cannot be polite, at least act polite.

Posted by: Pelayo

at November 26, 2007 9:47 PM

JSobieski wrote:

In the Christian world, a genuine seeking of forgiveness is a sign of character a sign of strength.

In the Islamic world, it will be seen solely as an admission. Their response to Christian doctrines such as "we are all sinners" is taken as a see---they admit they are wrong.
................................

This is exactly what I was going to mention. Christians see this as an opportunity for admissions of errors on both sides, and a way to open dialogue.

Most Muslims will take this as nothing but an admission of guilt on the part of Christians, as well as a clear indication of weakness.

I don't think we should hold our breath waiting for a similar letter from the Imams admitting any Muslim shortcomings.

Posted by: gravenimage

at November 26, 2007 10:00 PM

Greetings:

A little off-topic but in a similar vein, last week on PBS's "Frontline" program about Darfur (On Our Watch), a talking head described the rebellion in southern Sudan (which preceded Darfur) as being between "Christians and non-Christians." So it goes.

Hopefully, Pope Benedict will have a talk with the Catholic signers.

Posted by: 11B40

at November 26, 2007 10:07 PM

I have already sent an e-mail to Mr. Harold W. Attridge.

http://www.yale.edu/divinity/Fac.meet.shtml

If I get a reply, I will let y'all know how it went.

Posted by: Pelayo

at November 26, 2007 10:15 PM

Not in my name!

Posted by: lonewolf

at November 26, 2007 10:58 PM

oh, the belligerence and intransigence of these Christians. Nowhere did they forgive their Moslem brothers for their conquest of Christian Egypt, Syria, North Africa, Israel, Jordan, Anatolia, the Balkans, Spain and Portugal, and Sicily; or for the brutal murder and forced conversion of Christians in these lands; or for the centuries of Moslem slave-taking and raiding of Christian lands in the Mediterranean and Balkans; or for the more recent massacres of Christians in Turkey, Nigeria (Biafra), or the Sudan, etc. etc.
By pointedly leaving out this forgiveness, the Christians draw attention to these Moslem crimes. How do they expect to bring Moslems to a peaceful dialogue when they are so unwilling to forgive and forget these Moslem crimes?
O.K., sarcasm off. It is clear that none of these "Christians" has read one page of history; they certainly seem to know nothing of the history of their Church.

Posted by: ebonystone

at November 26, 2007 11:01 PM

Historically absurd, morally unacceptable, geopolitically dangerous.

Posted by: Hugh

at November 26, 2007 11:01 PM

Apologizing to Moslems for the Crusades is much like apologizing to Nazis for the Normandy invasion! It was a defensive act. Unlike D-Day, however, it was centuries late and not as effective as it should have been.

Admittedly, there were acts of barbarism committed during the crusades, many of which were committed against other Christians as well as Jews and Moslems. But they also need to be seen in relation to those acts committed by Moslems in spreading their violent and barbaric religion throughout the mideast and into Europe and India.

I graduated from a conservative Evangelical seminary, and am disgusted to see the name of one of our former presidents listed above. On the other hand, it does not surprise me too much, as his dhimmitude in relationship to Palestinians was made clear during his tenure there.

One expects this kind of surrender from nominal cultural ("liberal") Christians. But seeing this kind of capitulation coming from supposedly Bible-believing conservatives is repulsive.

These ignorant Dhimmis want to sit around and sing Kumbaya with those who seek to enslave them.

If this is the shape of Christian leadership today, there truely isn't much hope for the world until the Lord's return.

Posted by: StephenDvd

at November 26, 2007 11:03 PM

A terminally-longwinded and historically-absurd document.

Why did the Crusades (which these naifs now "apologize" for) happen?

How did Muslim armies end up in Jerusalem, or Persia, or Egypt, or across North Africa, or in control of Spain (al-Andalus)?

Did they chase a butterfly across the continents, and look up in surprise and decide to stay?

Or was it bloodthirsty Islamic imperialism, hegemonically expanding under the shadow of the Sword and slaughtering everyone in their path, rampaging from Arabia outward in a sequence of unholy Terror unmatched until the depredations of Atilla or Hitler?

Where is the Muslim apology for destroying all of Christendom in North Africa and the Middle East and Spain?

For forcibly converting everyone in their path, from Berber pagans to Afghani Buddhists?

And for annihilating any people who denied the Mohammedan offer of an All- Merciful "Allah"?

These "Christian" preachers are lame in brain and spirtuality.

I can just hear them addressing the Moneychangers in the Temple:

"We're so sorry to have to inconvenience you honest businesspeople who have ...turned God's house into a den of... er... entrepreneurs."

Islam doesn't need any more examples of bootlicking airheads (our government is already too full of that genus) from the infidel West.

They need people on our side who understand both their own religious traditions -and texts- as well as Islam's. Especially the Koran and Hadiths.

This batch come across like a roadshow of "The Clouds".

Floating in their own blather.

And heading for a beheading.

Posted by: profitsbeard

at November 26, 2007 11:10 PM

Did any of these foolish, naive Useful Idiots take a good, long, hard, close look at the record of the various Muslims who signed off on that 'Muslim Letter to the Christians', which is referred to with such excessive schwaermerei?

Below I list those that, so far, with the aid of google, jihadwatch and MEMRI, I have found to be of particular, sinister, interest.

One of them, Mr Allamah Shaykh Muhammad Sa'id Ramadan al-Buti, of Lebanon, wrote "Jihad in Islam: How to Understand and Practise it" (1995).

Mohamed Bechari of France took part in 'Cartoon Rage', instituting legal proceedings against France Soir for publishing the cartoons.

Mr Nihad Awad, of CAIR, is on record as supporting Hamas and its suicide murder attacks on Israel. Everyone at jihadwatch knows all about HIM.

Mohamed Salim Al-Awa, no. 13 on the list of signatories, was recorded, by MEMRI, in 1998, as declaring that Muslims must use all means possible to obtain WMDs; and that Israel must cease to exist.

Everybody here at dhimmiwatch and jihadwatch knows how 'peaceful' is Mr Ekmeleddin Ihsanoglu of Turkey, who wants a reserved Muslim seat on... the Security Council of the UN (can one imagine the Pope seeking such a seat? or the Dalai Lama? or the Chief Rabbi? or a seat for the Hindus qua Hindus?).

Signatory no. 57, Mr Ali Jum'aa or Gomaa, grand mufti of Egypt, issued a fatwa declaring statues un-Islamic (25/4/06), and supports Hezbollah, a terrorist organisation.

No 64, the convert, Nuh Ha Mim Keller, translated The Reliance of the Traveller. One may reflect on what that handy manual of Islamic law has to say about the proper treatment of Jews and Christians...

no. 75, Sayyed al-sadiq al-mahdi, of the Sudan, was PM of the Sudan 1966-67 - read about him, even the Wikipedia entry sounds pretty ominous.

no. 98, Ikrima Said Sabri, of the Al Aqsa Mosque in Jerusalem, only this year, October 2007, was heard totally denying that there was ever any Jewish temple on the Temple Mount. By the way, he also believes 9/11 was an Inside Job. Scholar? A man like that? If he's a 'scholar', so was Goebbels.

No 108, Mr Seyyed Hasan Shariatmadari, leader of the Iranian Natiional Republical Party...well, among other things, on 18.8.07 he declared "I hate America's crimes...I detest the Zionists, and hope the day will come when the world is free of these germs of corruption and destruction". He also called for 'a bullet in the head' of UK based Iranian exile and TV presenter, Manouchehr Fouladvand [see Dhimmiwatch 30/11/04). He has recently proclaimed Iran's imperial ambitions over Bahrain.

No. 113, Muhammad Haroon Siddiqui, fudges on Aisha's age at marriage and explains what degree of wife-beating is permissible.

No 120, Taissir Rajab Al-Tamimi, has expressed virulently anti-Israel and anti-Jewish sentiments - "the Jews are destined to be persecuted, humiliated, and tortured forever, and it is a Muslim duty to see that they reap their due...where Hitler failed, we must succeed".

No 131, Mufti Muhammad Taqi Usmani, is on record as having taught, in a recent book, that Muslims in countries like the UK should 'live peacefully..only until they gain enough power to engage in battle". He has also called for the death of Salman Rushdie.

Scholars and 'leading intellectuals', eh?

That's what I came up with from just a couple of quiet evenings on the internet.

I wouldn't trust any of these people as far as I could throw them.

As for the 'Christian' leaders who wrote the incredibly naive response - I wasn't at all surprised to see John Esposito among them, but ...deeply disappointed to see John Stott and Miroslav Volf, I would have expected them to have more discernment. Volf especially - his background is Croatian - does he know NOTHING of what the Ottoman Turks did for centuries to his Christian Catholic ancestors?

Posted by: dumbledoresarmy

at November 26, 2007 11:23 PM

From Harvard Divinity School, aside from the inevitable and egregious Harvey Cox, there are only the predictable: Diane Eck, ever the Defender of the Faith, and William Graham, another apologist for Islam, for both were eager to do Leila Ahmed's bidding and get Omid Safi a post at the School, but sober consideration by the other faculty members stopped that -- though the sweetly sinister apologist for Islam (Sufism! Rumi! Approaching the Koran: The Lyrical Suras!) Carl Ernst at Chapel Hill, after a so-called "nationwide search," made sure Omid Safi would be hired, and others, not knowing about Islam and therefore not daring to express, or perhaps have, doubts, allowed the appointment to go through. It's a problem -- this deference to the apologists in power, by faculty members who do not teach about Islam, and yet who, in the History or related departments, may have their suspicions but are not quite sure how to express or frame them, and prefer to stay out of the fray. After all, what's giving tenure to someone in a field like Islam matter? (Answer: a great deal. Don't give in. Meddle. Meddle. Meddle.) The Fiorenza Schussler couple is there, but that's about it. Slim pickings, if you go through the Divinity School catalogue. They had much greater success among the naifs at Yale Divinity School, but I don't see Jaroslav Pelikan's name among them.

The list of signatories may even contain the names of the usefully ignorant, as well as the sinisterly apologetic. In any case, it's not much by way of representation. A list of those who didn't sign would be much more impressive. But it doesn't matter. The damage has been done. It will do boffo at the Khaleej Times, and on Al-Jazeera. It will not be taken as the kind of thing that need be responded to in kind -- there will be no similar act of contrition over the 1350-year conquest of Christian (and Jewish, and Zoroastrian, and Hindu, and Buddhist) lands, no apology for the subsequent subjugation of tens of millions or even hundreds of millions of people, Christians, Jews, Zoroastrians, Hindus, Buddhists, and others, no recognition that the Crusades, for which apology has just been made, were limited in time and in space, and were provoked by the acts of Muslims, first by the attempted razing of the Church of the Holy Sepluchre by the Caliph Hakim in Egypt in 1009, and then by many different Muslims, including Seljuk Turks, who harried and murdered Christian pilgrims in the Holy Land, which is what led to the Crusades in the first place. But who's reading Runciman or anyone else to find out about this, when it is so much more fun just to apologize? Who wants to bother finding out what Muslim conquerors did to the Christian lands and peoples of the Middle East (hint: look at what happens to Christians in Iraq today, or at what happens to the Copts in Egypt, or has happened, intermittently, to the Maronites in Lebanon and Syria) when that might get in the way, and stay the potential signer's hand?

A list of the ahistorical, that is the unlearned, who presume to take a stand on something they have insufficiently studied. Print out that list. Keep it for ready reference. It may save time later on, when you are trying to decide if you have to take someone seriously or not. See if he's on the list.

Posted by: Hugh

at November 26, 2007 11:23 PM

Sickening and foolish, no matter how well-intended. These forays into "let's all just get along" are stupid, naive, and pointless. These idiots don't speak for me. And is it expecting too much for Christian theologians to understand the Crusades; when, why, and where they happened? I hope they included apologies to the Jews for the Crusades. The muslims got what they had coming for what they instigated; the Jews were guilty of nothing.

Posted by: Susanp

at November 26, 2007 11:29 PM

I don't know about anybody else but I have absolutely NO intentions of forgiving Islam for its 300 MILLION murders of innocent humans over the past 14 centuries.

DO the world's Christian "leaders" think all this homicide will stop anytime by soon by grovelling before Muslim leaders?

Posted by: pythagoras

at November 26, 2007 11:31 PM

This is exactly the wrong thing to do. I see several distinguished evangelical leaders on the list - people whom I respect - but in this, "they know not what they do". As Patrick Sookhdeo has said, this kind of nonsense will merely bring contempt upon Christians in the eyes of Muslims and further imperil Christian minorities living in Muslim contexts. There certainly will not be any reciprocity.

Just got Ray Ibrahim's "Al-Qaeda Reader" and I find on p21 discussion of a letter to the Saudis from Christian leaders after OBL tore into the Ulema over their "prostration" to the west by exploring peaceful relations with Christian leaders...

"When my colleagues and I wrote back to the Saudis ... and [our] second letter was published in Arabic in Al-Ayat, the pan-Arab newspaper based in London, the Saudi authorities censored the letter, preventing that issue of Al-Ayat from even entering the country.

What should this tell us?"

It should tell us that this religion and these people have a wholey different conception of religion, honesty, forgiveness, gratitude and honour than us. How long will Christian leaders continue in their naivety?

Posted by: Liam1304

at November 26, 2007 11:37 PM

"rampaging from Arabia outward in a sequence of unholy Terror unmatched until the depredations of Atilla or Hitler?"
posted by profitsbeard

Ah, actually, Attila was a couple of centuries before Might Mo'. Perhaps you're thinking of Genghis Khan.

Posted by: ebonystone

at November 26, 2007 11:41 PM

Organized religion is filth. I am a Chrsitan who has had more than enough of both Islam and Christianity. One is violent, the other morally stupid. To hell with both of them.

Posted by: abdulalshirk

at November 26, 2007 11:50 PM

Organized religion is filth. I am a Chrsitan who has had more than enough of both Islam and Christianity. One is violent, the other morally stupid. To hell with both of them.

Posted by: abdulalshirk

at November 26, 2007 11:51 PM

oops, make that "Mighty Mo'"

Posted by: ebonystone

at November 26, 2007 11:52 PM

Didn't Don Quixote try this approach? Didn't Neville Chamberlain try it, with less deluded nobility?

How many more atrocities? How many more jihadi actions? How many more innocents slaughtered? How many more people and companies forced to defend themselves against legal jihad? How many more people leaving "mainstream" Christian denominations that no longer have any moral grounding for more conservative denominations? Same goes for the liberal Jewish groups that keep hoping against hope. Same goes for Hindus and Buddhists and every other religious or secular group that keeps fantasizing that by being nice and forgiving. How much more before all the dhimmis get it?

Arafat himself made big about his gun in one hand and olive branch in the other. It made him a superstar. He knew the world better than these dhimmis. He played the olive branch for us, while playing the gun for the Arab world (with a nice obvious threat to everyone else to boot). So he could threaten us, and keep up his bona fides with the Arab world, while convincing the brain-dead and knowingly "duped" dhimmis that he really wanted peace. He was a brilliant terrorist.

It's the gun - raw strength - that the Islamic world respects. They view olive branches - peace, or more precisely in this case, unconditional capitulation - as just something to crush or blow up.

We should learn from Arafat's tactics. We should offer an olive branch (and unlike Arafat we can do so sincerely, because that's what we are about), but only if we make it clear that we have a gun on the other hand.

Posted by: Wimbledon Womble

at November 27, 2007 12:15 AM

Governments and churches don't speak for me. One thing is those creatures, and another, is the common man/woman, we are the Salt of the Earth.

I'm with We, THE People.

Let's see what happens when the final showdown comes, and We finally stop muttering in the pubs into our beer, and roll up our sleeves, and say, Enough is Enough."

TPTB can NEVER kill us. We are the IMMORTALS. We adhere to Freedom and Liberty!

Posted by: allat

at November 27, 2007 12:33 AM

You can't ask forgiveness from evil.

Islam has proven over and over again it is evil.

Posted by: Battle_of_Tours

at November 27, 2007 12:35 AM

"Historically absurd, morally unacceptable, geopolitically dangerous."

Roger that. A more practical bit of theology may be found in Psalm 144.

Posted by: Papa Whiskey

at November 27, 2007 12:45 AM

Dear Islamists and CAIR proxies,

Please don't kill us or sue us. We love you. We have hurt you. We know that. We are bad, evil and weak people. Please conquer us. We deserve it. Just don't kill us. If you enslave our children, please let them serve benign masters. Please don't behead us. We are afraid of pain. If you must kill us, please consider killing anyone but me first. If you must kill me, please do it gently with love - how about a kiss and cyanide capsule. It worked for Himmler and Adolf. We find it hard to love them, but if it will make you happy, we will, and we only ask that you treat us with the same humanity they showed toward others and themselves. No matter how you choose to kill us - and we know we deserve it - please just do it in a caring and loving manner. We don't like pain. Remember, that we love you and believe in you. Please love us enough to destroy us in a loving way.

Lovingly yours,

Christian Dhimmis

Posted by: Wimbledon Womble

at November 27, 2007 12:50 AM

ebonystone-

Right you are about timelines.

Was thinking of Genghis (whose heirs converted to Islam, ironically, after his hordes humbled the Muslim power structure), not his earlier model in mayhem, Atilla.

Posted by: profitsbeard

at November 27, 2007 12:51 AM

the cusades never would have happen but for MUSLIMS raiding pillgram caravans for booty and slaves so the ones that should be apologizing are the muslims and these church leaders should be demanding the muslims apologize

Posted by: grizlybear

at November 27, 2007 12:59 AM

"love of God and love of neighbour"

.. is the christian tenet. Full stop.

The islamic tenets are submission and zakat. The latter mainly is used to finance jihad.

Love of God is totally different from submission to a god. Love of neighbour is not exactly the same as killing him.

No, there is no common ground.

Christians are obliged to study the world as the world itself is a revelation of God - this directly leads to science and art. Muslims are obliged to call a sword a plough. This leads nowhere.

(btw I am an atheist)

Posted by: FreeSpeech

at November 27, 2007 1:00 AM

Battle_of_Tours

I don't think Islam is evil. I rather think that Islam is a lie. It is the lie that says that evil is good.

Posted by: FreeSpeech

at November 27, 2007 1:01 AM

Easy to identify the apostate Christian churches with this letter.

Posted by: Abby

at November 27, 2007 1:19 AM

Nice to see all the leftists, weak tea Christians, new agers and other assorted ignoramuses supplicate themselves before the religion of death.

Fools. Muslims are not like us and never will be.

These ministers and priests have had too many years of living the good life. Too many years of isolation from reality and a arrogance born of intellectual laziness. Perhaps they believe the pablum they've fed their students and congragations as well.

Whatever the cause these people are morally bankrupt and intellectually deficient.

The devil does indeed wear the clerics collar.

Posted by: waltc

at November 27, 2007 1:24 AM

The letter is a disgusting spectacle.

What Christians consider muslim apologists Diana Eck and John Esposito to be "Christian leaders"?

Unfortunately, there are many sanctimonious fools on that list, who are, more or less, "Christian leaders", (e.g. Robert Schuller). Current and former products (e.g Frederick Streets) of Yale Divinity School would bring shame on that institution, except that "it" is shameless. I wonder what the readers of Khaleej Times make of the signature of Frederick Streets, (currently a chaplain) of Yeshiva University (!) ?

Posted by: del

at November 27, 2007 2:01 AM

When I read the New Testament, I find that the Jews were trying to kill the Christians. The Christian reponse was:

* They prayed for boldness
* They tried even harder to convert the Jews
* They forgave the Jews

However, there was NEVER an instance of the Christians trying to find common ground with the Jews, unless it was around faith in Jesus Christ as the Messiah.

Today, it is the Muslims who are killing the Christians. Therefore, it is quite strange that so many Christian leaders are coming, hat in hand, to find common ground with the enemies of the faith.

One wonders if these Christian leaders have ever really studied the New Testament; and if so, why don't they obey it?

Posted by: PersonOfTheBook

at November 27, 2007 2:29 AM

“Forgive them; for they do not know what they are doing.

Posted by: Joe Schmoe USA

at November 27, 2007 3:02 AM

In the War of Ideas: Jihadism vs Democracy, Walid Phares shows how the west has been subjected to a process of 'delegitimization' at the hands of its self-loathing left-wing academics and wahhabi-funded schools of middle east studies. This letter demonstates just how successful this process has been.

Posted by: Malta_1565

at November 27, 2007 3:34 AM

well in one sense they (the christian leaders) have cleared the way for the muslims to be exactly like they are. chances are the islamic world will show their true colors when they spit in the christian leaders' collective faces by demanding more than the apology that was so not deserved in this case.

i know that kumbaya attitudes will only get you killed when dealing with an ideology that believes "war is deceit", so I truly hope this token gesture does not facilitate false hopes in what is left of western clergy.

islam, the loud mouthed bully of religions... apologize for me saying that, too!

Posted by: VooDooChile

at November 27, 2007 3:56 AM

one way of looking at this letter could be from a "don't blame us, we did our part" perspective? christian-bashing being all the rage just about everywhere on earth right now, possibly the people involved want to clear their spiritual ledgers, although they are sure to not get any positive feedback from it. apologize first, its doesnt cost a thing... but after you apologize, after you attempt to emulate the Christ, prepare for all out war!

for the record, apologies do not end wars. especially not 1400 year old wars with extremely ignorant and violent misanthropes.

Posted by: VooDooChile

at November 27, 2007 4:07 AM

To ease evaluation of list here is the list of signers in alphabetical order of surnames (surnames first):

Accad Martin, Academic Dean, Arab Baptist Theological Seminary (Lebanon)

Alexander Scott C., Director, Catholic-Muslim Studies, Catholic Theological Union

Allen Roger, Chair, Department of Near Eastern Languages and Civilizations, University of Pennsylvania

Anderson Leith, President, National Association of Evangelicals

Attridge *Harold W., Dean and Lillian Claus Professor of New Testament, Yale Divinity School

B?wering Gerhard, Yale University

Bakke Ray, Convening Chair, Evangelicals for Middle East Understanding

Ballin Camillo, Bishop, Vicar Apostolic of Kuwait (Roman Catholic)

Beisner Barry, Bishop, Episcopal Diocese of Northern California

Bertuzzi Federico, President, PM Internacional, Latin America

Beverley James A., Tyndale Seminary, Canada

Bonk Jonathan, Executive Director, Overseas Ministries Study Center

Britton Joseph, Dean, Berkeley Divinity School at Yale

Buchanan John M., Editor/Publisher, The Christian Century

Burnett Joe Goodwin, Bishop, Episcopal Diocese of Nebraska

C?rdenas Juan Carlos, Instituto Iberoamericano de Estudios Transculturales, Spain

Candler Samuel G., Dean, Cathedral of St. Philip, Atlanta

Castleberry Joseph, President, Northwest University Colin Chapman, Author

Cizik Richard, Vice President, National Association of Evangelicals

Constantineanu Corneliu, Dean, Evangelical Theological Seminary, Croatia

Cooley Robert E., President Emeritus, Gordon-Conwell Theological Seminary Harvey Cox, Harvard Divinity School

Cumming *Joseph, Director of the Reconciliation Program, Yale Center for Faith and Culture, Yale Divinity School

D’Alton John, President, Melbourne Institute for Orthodox Christian Studies, Australia

Delbecq Andr?, University of Santa Clara Keith DeRose, Yale University

Duncan Andr?s Alonso, CEO, Latinoamerica Global, A.C.

Eck Diana L., Harvard University

Edwards Mark U., Jr., Senior Advisor to the Dean, Harvard Divinity School

Ekstrom Bertil, Executive Director, Mission Commission, World Evangelical Alliance

Esposito John, Director Prince Alwaleed Bin Talal Center for Muslim-Christian
Understanding, Georgetown University

Fiorenza Elizabeth Sch?ssler, Harvard Divinity School

Fiorenza Francis Sch?ssler, Harvard Divinity School

Ford David, Regius Professor of Divinity, Cambridge University

George Timothy, Dean, Beeson Divinity School, Samford University

Goizueta Roberto S., Boston College Bruce Gordon, University of St. Andrews

Graham William A., Dean, Harvard Divinity School

Green Lynn, International Chairman, YWAM

Griffel Frank, Yale University

Gulick Edwin F., Jr., Bishop, Episcopal Diocese of Kentucky

Gushee David P., President, Evangelicals for Human Rights

Gustafson Kim B., President, Common Ground

Haddad Elie, Provost, Arab Baptist Theological Seminary, Lebanon

Hadsell Heidi, President, Hartford Seminary

Hallisey L. Ann, Hallisey Consulting and Counseling

Hanson Paul D., Harvard Divinity School

Heim David, Executive Editor, The Christian Century

Hjelm Norman A., National Council of the Churches of Christ in the USA, retired

Holladay Carl R., Candler School of Theology, Emory University

Hough Joseph, President, Union Theological Seminary, NY

Hybels Bill, Founder and Senior Pastor, Willow Creek Community Church

Jabbour Nabeel T., Consultant, Professor, Colorado

Johnston Shannon Sherwood, Bishop Coadjutor, Episcopal Diocese of Virginia

Jones David Colin, Bishop Suffragan, Episcopal Diocese of Virginia

Jones Stanton L., Provost, Wheaton College, IL

Jones Tony, National Coordinator, Emergent Village

Kassis Riad A., Theologian, Author, Consultant

Knitter Paul, Union Theological Seminary, NY

Kohl Manfred W., Vice President of Overseas Council International, USA

Kowalski James A., Dean, Cathedral of Saint John the Divine, NY

Kugler Sharon, University Chaplain, Yale University

Kuzmic Peter, President, Evangelical Theological Faculty Osijek, Croatia

Lader Linda LeSourd, President, Renaissance Institute

Lee Peter J., Bishop, Episcopal Diocese of Virginia

Lewis Tim, President, William Carey Int’l University

Lindner John B., Yale Divinity School

Litfin Duane, President, Wheaton College

Livingstone Greg, Founder, Frontiers

Lobe Albert C., Interim Executive Director, Mennonite Central Committee

Love Rick, International Director, Frontiers

Magnuson Douglas, Bethel University

Maiden Peter, International Coordinator, OM

Manastireanu Danut, World Vision International, Iasi, Romania

Masback Harold, III, Senior Minister, The Congregational Church of New Canaan, New Canaan, CT

McCoid Donald M., Evangelical Lutheran Church in America

McConnell C. Douglas, Dean, School of Intercultural Studies, Fuller Theological Seminary

McCurry Don, President, Ministries to Muslims

McLaren Brian D., Author, Speaker, Activist

McVey Kathleen E., Princeton Theological Seminary

Moore Steve, President and CEO, The Mission Exchange (formerly EFMA)

Morgan Douglas, Director, Adventist Peace Fellowship

Mouw Richard, President, Fuller Theological Seminary

Munayer Salim J., Academic Dean, Bethlehem Bible College, Jerusalem

Nathan Rich, Senior Pastor, Vineyard Church of Columbus

Neff David, Editor in Chief and Vice-President, Christianity Today Media Group

Negrov Alexander, President, St. Petersburg Christian University, Russia

Osmer Richard R., Princeton Theological Seminary

Packard George E., Bishop Suffragan for Chaplaincies of the Episcopal Church

Parsons Greg H., General Director, U.S. Center for World Mission

Pennoyer Doug, Dean, School of Intercultural Studies, Biola University

Petersen Douglas, Vanguard University of Southern California

Promey Sally, Yale Divinity School

Rausch Thomas P., S.J., Loyola Marymount University

Reed David A., Wycliffe College, University of Toronto

Rees Neil, International Director, World Horizons

Robeck Cecil M., Jr., Fuller Theological Seminary

Rogers Leonard, Executive Director, Evangelicals for Middle East Understanding

Rood Judith Mendelsohn, Biola University

Sachs William L., Director, Center for Reconciliation and Mission, Richmond

Sanneh Lamin, Yale Divinity School

Saperstein Andrew, Yale Center for Faith and Culture

Schuller Robert, Founder, Crystal Cathedral and Hour of Power

Schweiker William, University of Chicago

Senior Donald, C.P., President, Catholic Theological Union, Chicago

Seow C. L., Princeton Theological Seminary

Shehadeh Imad Nicola, President, Jordan Evangelical Theological Seminary

Shenk David W. and K. Grace, Eastern Mennonite Missions

Shuster Marguerite, Fuller Theological Seminary

Stackhouse John G., Jr., Regent College, Vancouver

Stassen Glen, Fuller Theological Seminary

Stephanous Andrea Zaki, Vice President, Protestant Church in Egypt

Stone Wilbur P., Bethel University, MN

Stott John, Rector Emeritus, All Souls Church, London

Streets Frederick J., Yeshiva University

Taylor William, Global Ambassador, World Evangelical Alliance

Thomas John, President and General Minister, United Church of Christ

Torrance Iain, President, Princeton Theological Seminary

Townes *Emilie M., Andrew Mellon Professor of African American Religion and Theology, Yale Divinity School, and President-elect of the American Academy of Religion

Treneer Michael W., International President, The Navigators, CO

Tunnicliffe Geoff, International Director, World Evangelical Alliance

Verwer George, Founder and former International Director, OM

Vogelaar Harold, Lutheran School of Theology at Chicago

Volf *Miroslav, Founder and Director of the Yale Center for Faith and Culture
,
Waggoner Berten A., National Director, Association of Vineyard Churches

Wallis Jim, President, Sojourners

Warren Rick, Founder and Senior Pastor, Saddleback Church, and The Purpose Driven Life, Lake Forest, CA J.

Wilson Robert R., Associate Dean for Academic Affairs, Yale Divinity School Nicholas Wolterstorff, University of Virginia

Woodberry Dudley, Dean Emeritus, Fuller School of International Studies, Fuller Theological Seminary Christopher

Wright Henry B. Professor of Theology, Yale Divinity School

Wright J.H., International Director, Langham Partnership, London

Yogarajah Godfrey, General Secretary, Evangelical Fellowship in Asia Community Council of the Sisters of the Precious Blood, Dayton, OH.

Yonggi Cho David, Founder and Senior Pastor, Yoido Full Gospel Church, Seoul, Korea

Posted by: Sonshine

at November 27, 2007 4:15 AM

“Forgive them; for they do not know what they are doing.

Posted by: Joe Schmoe USA at November 27, 2007 3:02 AM

Don't forgive them. They know what they are doing.
It's called treason.

Posted by: thomas. h

at November 27, 2007 5:17 AM

Whats to stop these islamic recepients of this christian letter from rearranging the wording and taking it to the people of their countries to incite even more hatred of christians.

Posted by: tblab

at November 27, 2007 5:39 AM

Let’s look at the timeline:

630 Two years before Muhammad’s death of a fever, he launches the Tabuk Crusades, in which he led 30,000 jihadists against the Byzantine Christians. He had heard a report that a huge army had amassed to attack Arabia, but the report turned out to be a false rumor. The Byzantine army never materialized. He turned around and went home, but not before extracting ‘agreements’ from northern tribes. They could enjoy the ‘privilege’ of living under Islamic ‘protection’ (read: not be attacked by Islam), if they paid a tax (jizya).

This tax sets the stage for Muhammad’s and the later Caliphs’ policies. If the attacked city or region did not want to convert to Islam, then they paid a jizya tax. If they converted, then they paid a zakat tax. Either way, money flowed back to the Islamic treasury in Arabia or to the local Muslim governor.

632—634 Under the Caliphate of Abu Bakr the Muslim Crusaders reconquer and sometimes conquer for the first time the polytheists of Arabia. These Arab polytheists had to convert to Islam or die. They did not have the choice of remaining in their faith and paying a tax. Islam does not allow for religious freedom.

633 The Muslim Crusaders, led by Khalid al—Walid, a superior but bloodthirsty military commander, whom Muhammad nicknamed the Sword of Allah for his ferocity in battle (Tabari, 8:158 / 1616—17), conquer the city of Ullays along the Euphrates River (in today’s Iraq). Khalid captures and beheads so many that a nearby canal, into which the blood flowed, was called Blood Canal (Tabari 11:24 / 2034—35).

634 At the Battle of Yarmuk in Syria the Muslim Crusaders defeat the Byzantines. Today Osama bin Laden draws inspiration from the defeat, and especially from an anecdote about Khalid al—Walid. An unnamed Muslim remarks: ‘The Romans are so numerous and the Muslims so few.’ To this Khalid retorts: ‘How few are the Romans, and how many the Muslims! Armies become numerous only with victory and few only with defeat, not by the number of men. By God, I would love it . . . if the enemy were twice as many’ (Tabari, 11:94 / 2095). Osama bin Ladin quotes Khalid and says that his fighters love death more than we in the West love life. This philosophy of death probably comes from a verse like Sura 2:96. Muhammad assesses the Jews: ‘[Prophet], you are sure to find them [the Jews] clinging to life more eagerly than any other people, even polytheists’ (MAS Abdel Haleem, The Qur’an, Oxford UP, 2004; first insertion in brackets is Haleem’s; the second mine).

634—644 The Caliphate of Umar ibn al—Khattab, who is regarded as particularly brutal.

635 Muslim Crusaders besiege and conquer of Damascus

636 Muslim Crusaders defeat Byzantines decisively at Battle of Yarmuk.

637 Muslim Crusaders conquer Iraq at the Battle of al—Qadisiyyah (some date it in 635 or 636)

638 Muslim Crusaders conquer and annex Jerusalem, taking it from the Byzantines.

638—650 Muslim Crusaders conquer Iran, except along Caspian Sea.

639—642 Muslim Crusaders conquer Egypt.

641 Muslim Crusaders control Syria and Palestine.

643—707 Muslim Crusaders conquer North Africa.

644 Caliph Umar is assassinated by a Persian prisoner of war; Uthman ibn Affan is elected third Caliph, who is regarded by many Muslims as gentler than Umar.

644—650 Muslim Crusaders conquer Cyprus, Tripoli in North Africa, and establish Islamic rule in Iran, Afghanistan, and Sind.

656 Caliph Uthman is assassinated by disgruntled Muslim soldiers; Ali ibn Abi Talib, son—in—law and cousin to Muhammad, who married the prophet’s daughter Fatima through his first wife Khadija, is set up as Caliph.

656 Battle of the Camel, in which Aisha, Muhammad’s wife, leads a rebellion against Ali for not avenging Uthman’s assassination. Ali’s partisans win.

657 Battle of Siffin between Ali and Muslim governor of Jerusalem, arbitration goes against Ali

661 Murder of Ali by an extremist; Ali’s supporters acclaim his son Hasan as next Caliph, but he comes to an agreement with Muawiyyah I and retires to Medina.

661—680 the Caliphate of Muawiyyah I. He founds Umayyid dynasty and moves capital from Medina to Damascus

673—678 Arabs besiege Constantinople, capital of Byzantine Empire

680 Massacre of Hussein (Muhammad’s grandson), his family, and his supporters in Karbala, Iraq.

691 Dome of the Rock is completed in Jerusalem, only six decades after Muhammad’s death.

705 Abd al—Malik restores Umayyad rule.

710—713 Muslim Crusaders conquer the lower Indus Valley.

711—713 Muslim Crusaders conquer Spain and impose the kingdom of Andalus. This article recounts how Muslims today still grieve over their expulsion 700 years later. They seem to believe that the land belonged to them in the first place.

719 Cordova, Spain, becomes seat of Arab governor

732 The Muslim Crusaders stopped at the Battle of Poitiers; that is, Franks (France) halt Arab advance

749 The Abbasids conquer Kufah and overthrow Umayyids

756 Foundation of Umayyid amirate in Cordova, Spain, setting up an independent kingdom from Abbasids

762 Foundation of Baghdad

785 Foundation of the Great Mosque of Cordova

789 Rise of Idrisid amirs (Muslim Crusaders) in Morocco; foundation of Fez; Christoforos, a Muslim who converted to Christianity, is executed.

800 Autonomous Aghlabid dynasty (Muslim Crusaders) in Tunisia

807 Caliph Harun al—Rashid orders the destruction of non—Muslim prayer houses and of the church of Mary Magdalene in Jerusalem

809 Aghlabids (Muslim Crusaders) conquer Sardinia, Italy

813 Christians in Palestine are attacked; many flee the country

831 Muslim Crusaders capture Palermo, Italy; raids in Southern Italy

850 Caliph al—Matawakkil orders the destruction of non—Muslim houses of prayer

855 Revolt of the Christians of Hims (Syria)

837—901 Aghlabids (Muslim Crusaders) conquer Sicily, raid Corsica, Italy, France

869—883 Revolt of black slaves in Iraq

909 Rise of the Fatimid Caliphate in Tunisia; these Muslim Crusaders occupy Sicily, Sardinia

928—969 Byzantine military revival, they retake old territories, such as Cyprus (964) and Tarsus (969)

937 The Ikhshid, a particularly harsh Muslim ruler, writes to Emperor Romanus, boasting of his control over the holy places

937 The Church of the Resurrection (known as Church of Holy Sepulcher in Latin West) is burned down by Muslims; more churches in Jerusalem are attacked

960 Conversion of Qarakhanid Turks to Islam

966 Anti—Christian riots in Jerusalem

969 Fatimids (Muslim Crusaders) conquer Egypt and found Cairo

c. 970 Seljuks enter conquered Islamic territories from the East

973 Israel and southern Syria are again conquered by the Fatimids

1003 First persecutions by al—Hakim; the Church of St. Mark in Fustat, Egypt, is destroyed

1009 Destruction of the Church of the Resurrection by al—Hakim (see 937)

1012 Beginning of al—Hakim’s oppressive decrees against Jews and Christians

1015 Earthquake in Palestine; the dome of the Dome of the Rock collapses

1031 Collapse of Umayyid Caliphate and establishment of 15 minor independent dynasties throughout Muslim Andalus

1048 Reconstruction of the Church of the Resurrection completed

1050 Creation of Almoravid (Muslim Crusaders) movement in Mauretania; Almoravids (aka Murabitun) are coalition of western Saharan Berbers; followers of Islam, focusing on the Quran, the hadith, and Maliki law.

1055 Seljuk Prince Tughrul enters Baghdad, consolidation of the Seljuk Sultanate

1055 Confiscation of property of Church of the Resurrection

1071 Battle of Manzikert, Seljuk Turks (Muslim Crusaders) defeat Byzantines and occupy much of Anatolia

1071 Turks (Muslim Crusaders) invade Palestine

1073 Conquest of Jerusalem by Turks (Muslim Crusaders)

1075 Seljuks (Muslim Crusaders) capture Nicea (Iznik) and make it their capital in Anatolia

1076 Almoravids (Muslim Crusaders) (see 1050) conquer western Ghana

1085 Toledo is taken back by Christian armies

1086 Almoravids (Muslim Crusaders) (see 1050) send help to Andalus, Battle of Zallaca

1090—1091 Almoravids (Muslim Crusaders) occupy all of Andalus except Saragossa and Balearic Islands

1094 Byzantine emperor Alexius Comnenus I asks western Christendom for help against Seljuk invasions of his territory; Seljuks are Muslim Turkish family of eastern origins; see 970

1095 Pope Urban II preaches first Crusade; they capture Jerusalem in 1099

So it is only after all of the Islamic aggressive invasions that Western Christendom launches its first Crusades.
=============================

According to K.S. Lal, the Muslims slaughtered 80 million Hindus and Buddhists when Islam invaded India.

http://www.bharatvani.org/books/tlmr/

(the following paragraph was more or less copied from a post by a proud Hindu on Jihad Watch)

“Islam had an enormous cultural effect on India. Not many realize the origins of the Hindu practice of “Johar” or “Sacrifice” started in medieval times, when Muslim armies were
conquering Hindu India. The Muslims would lay siege to forts/cities and when the worn out Hindu soldiers came out to surrender - they would all be brutally massacred, followed by the mass rape & forcible conversion to Islam of all remaining Hindu women.
This may have been customary Islamic tradition, which they practiced in all lands they conquered.
However, physical violence against and denigration of womanhood in this manner was considered the most intolerable of all insults in Hindu civilization.
Therefore, the Hindu women would pray to God & commit collective suicide before their men left for battle - to avoid the humiliation of rape and forcible conversion to Islam.
But, why burn themselves, you may ask?
Why not just kill oneself in a less gruesome fashion, such as consuming poison or something similar?
Well, the Hindus discovered to their horror that the Muslims were such perverts that they even
indulged in necrophilia. Therefore, the supreme sacrifice was to be undertaken to protect chastity and honor at all costs.
This tradition was still relevant for the protection of Hindu widows as long as Muslim rule lasted in India, i.e. until the establishment of British rule, who were quite barbaric themselves, but infinitely better than the Muslims.”

Add to the toll in India the enormous number of people slaughtered in Egpypt, North Africa, Spain, Turkey, Armenia, the Balkans, Afghanistan, Pakistan, Iran and Iraq (in fact virtually everywhere Islam has spread), I’ve seen estimates that 250,000,000 or more people have been killed in accordance with the precepts laid out in the Qur’an.

The borders of Islam are constantly bloody

Posted by: Mike_W

at November 27, 2007 5:44 AM

They forgot to apologize for the Reconquista of Spain, Lepanto, Victory in the Battle of Vienna 1683, US Navy's action against Barbary Pirates, 1948 UN's resolution recogizing Israel, tsunami, global warming and the recent Liverpool soccer team's 8:0 victory over Turks.

Please, feel free to add to the list if I forgot something.

Posted by: thomas. h

at November 27, 2007 5:56 AM

Christianity has much in common with both Marxism and Islam...particularly its utopian ideal. But this ideal in the Christian ethos expresses itself not in the supremacism of the latter two, but in a kind of moral masochism...where one's own sins are to be emphasized at the expense of all else.

It's very similar to the arguments of American Leftists reciting the litany of historical sins perpetrated by their country...who - when confronted with the comparable sins of other peoples - reply that their own quest for moral redemption begins and ends with the behavior of America and that besides, they're in no position to judge others.

It might sound philosophically reasonable; an extension of the concept of personal responsibility. But we're not talking about individuals here, we're talking about nation-states. In the end, consciously or not, these folks are waging war upon their own country, holding it up to standards they don't apply to others, and arbitrarily confining their pursuit of "morality" - a concept which in its essence should always have universal application.

America has perpetrated its share of historical sins. We should engage in their honest exposition (and our universities do so, with zeal). But giving other nations and cultures a pass under the guise of "inclusiveness" is a form of moral evasion that will inevitably result in a convoluted vision of self-hatred against one's own country.

Thanks but no thanks.

Posted by: Cornelius

at November 27, 2007 7:22 AM

Is an email campaign in order?

Posted by: Elric66

at November 27, 2007 7:34 AM

"...we ask forgiveness of the All-Merciful One..."

Notice how they didn't say "God".

It sounds like these "Christians" start their letter by asking for Allah's forgiveness.

This tells me all I need to know about the letter and its writers.

Christians don't go to Allah to seek forgiveness.

"We applaud that A Common Word Between Us and You stresses so insistently the unique devotion to one God, indeed the love of God, as the primary duty of every believer."

Don't they understand that the Muslim "one god" excludes the Christian trinity? Don't they know what "Allah" said about people who believe that God has a Son?

They're building this "peace" on "shifting sand".

Posted by: Josephine

at November 27, 2007 7:45 AM

Gee, we Jews never got such a letter of apology from Christians!!

What a stupid, stupid, stupid thing for these 'Christian leaders' to have done!! They have taken the first step towards dhimmitude!!

Posted by: TeachESL

at November 27, 2007 8:08 AM

When I read the New Testament, I find that the Jews were trying to kill the Christians.
Posted by: PersonOfTheBook at November 27, 2007 2:29 AM

Whoa! Other than Jesus and Stephen, who were both Jewish BTW, what are you referring to?

The Christian reponse was:
* They prayed for boldness
* They tried even harder to convert the Jews
* They forgave the Jews

Just add boiling oil.
Posted by: Shy Guy

at November 27, 2007 8:09 AM

Correction to my previous email: as much as a crowd of Jews had no pity on Jesus, it was the Roman authorities who killed him.

Posted by: Shy Guy

at November 27, 2007 8:13 AM

They do not speak for the everyday Joe or Mary Christian or for me.

Posted by: bigcatgirl13106

at November 27, 2007 8:21 AM

I have noticed that most of the Christian leaders who signed this doucument are not conservitive or of traditional Christian backround. Those Christians know FULL WELL the truth about how Christian believers were and still are treated under Muslim rule.

Posted by: bigcatgirl13106

at November 27, 2007 8:25 AM

bigcatgirl13106:

"They do not speak for the everyday Joe or Mary Christian or for me."

Nor do these useful idiots speak for Christ Himself as He never ever once pandered to evil as these disgusting appeasers seem so adapt at doing.

Posted by: descendantofacrusader

at November 27, 2007 8:33 AM

Here is a full page ad with the same names of these so-called Christian leaders. I cannot help but think in these last days of the Christian liturgical calander year, the new liturgical calander year starts this Sunday with Advent, what Our Blessed Lord said about the coming of false prophets.

http://www.acommonword.com/lib/downloads/fullpageadbold18.pdf

Posted by: bigcatgirl13106

at November 27, 2007 8:47 AM

descendantofacrusader,

"Nor do these useful idiots speak for Christ Himself as He never ever once pandered to evil as these disgusting appeasers seem so adapt at doing."

These leaders forget about the warnings given by Jesus about false prophets coming, claiming to do things in His name.

Posted by: bigcatgirl13106

at November 27, 2007 8:51 AM

Shy Guy

"As much as a crowd of Jews had no pity on Jesus, it was the Roman authorities who killed him."

True, but it was a pragmatic political act. The Jews could not execute anyone without clearing it with the Roman governor. Pilate is supposed to have said, "I am innocent of the blood of this just man"

Anyway what the hell does it matter now when our muslim citizens are aiming to blow the a--- off the lot of us?

As for this apology why don’t they just have every kuffur buy tee shirts saying “Sorry Mohammed, please take my country and crap on my head”. To show true repentance they could donate to proceeds to OBL.

Posted by: Fred

at November 27, 2007 8:53 AM

Christian leaders ask for Muslim forgiveness
And there's nothing essentially wrong with such a gesture. . .

I had to walk away from the computer after reading those words - written by the author of this website and several books like "The Politically Incorrect Guide to Islam )and the Crusades)" as well as "The Truth about Muhammed, Founder of the World's most Intolerant Religion" and "Religion of Peace? Why Christianity Is and Islam Isn't".

Nothing essentially wrong with such a gesture??

I'll need something far stronger than what is offered at the bar to swallow that.

These confused ignorant dhimmified souls need to keep their contrition solemn and personal and spare us this circus act.

They don't, cannot and will never speak for me.

Posted by: miira

at November 27, 2007 8:55 AM

Those of you who put your money into the collection plate on Sunday are financing your own destruction.

Posted by: Pelayo

at November 27, 2007 9:02 AM

Is an email campaign in order?

Posted by: Elric66

-----------------------

Do what you think is right. As for me, I'll never -never again ask approval from someone - nor go to a leader. That's a mistake that's been done in the past. Look the Chinese under Mao, the Rus under Stalin, the Afr.-Amers. were left high and dry when they depended on MLK.

And the lesson is...WE ARE OUR OWN LEADERS!

Posted by: allat

at November 27, 2007 9:13 AM

Pelayo:
“Those of you who put your money into the collection plate on Sunday are financing your own destruction.”

Novel idea that except for one thing: these signing appeasers are ‘Christian’ in name only otherwise they would not equate islam with either ‘Abrahamic faith” or the “All-Merciful One”. Not the same at all, therefore: I am not in the least concerned about my churches ‘collection plate’ or what it may finance.

Posted by: descendantofacrusader

at November 27, 2007 9:19 AM

Calling all Lutherans, Episcpalians, and Church of Christ Members. These are your guys:

Gulick Edwin F., Jr., Bishop, Episcopal Diocese of Kentucky
Hjelm Norman A., National Council of the Churches of Christ in the USA, retired
Johnston Shannon Sherwood, Bishop Coadjutor, Episcopal Diocese of Virginia
Jones David Colin, Bishop Suffragan, Episcopal Diocese of Virginia
Lee Peter J., Bishop, Episcopal Diocese of Virginia
McCoid Donald M., Evangelical Lutheran Church in America
Packard George E., Bishop Suffragan for Chaplaincies of the Episcopal Church
Thomas John, President and General Minister, United Church of Christ
Vogelaar Harold, Lutheran School of Theology at Chicago

Posted by: Pelayo

at November 27, 2007 9:21 AM

This is stupid. These "Christian" "leaders" do not speak for me. I didn't get a letter or a phone call or an email asking me what I thought of this insipid surrender missive.

Among the several offenses is the assertion that there have been excesses in the war on terror. The only excess in the war on terror is we've given them waaaay too much time and been waaaay too nice in not having killed enough Islamist thugs.

Some "Christian" "leader" went to all the trouble to create the stupid 'art' at the link below.

http://www.thinkchristian.net/index.php/2007/11/15/feet-washing/#comment-26301

All these surrender monkeys need to pack up their good will and groveling and waddle on over to the Middle East and there capitulate in their double-knit cowardice.

Posted by: undaunted

at November 27, 2007 9:23 AM

Descendantofacrusader, what a coincidence; while I was preparing that short list, you made your comment.

I don't care what they are in name only, they are leaders, self appointed or otherwise, and they have delivered a very serious message of surrender.

"I am not in the least concerned about my churches ‘collection plate’ or what it may finance." Really?

Posted by: Pelayo

at November 27, 2007 9:27 AM

Ironic, considering that the Christian churches that are growing are those churches that DO NOT COMPRIMISE WITH THE WORLD, not the so-called progressive churches.

Posted by: bigcatgirl13106

at November 27, 2007 9:40 AM

Pelayo:
It seems obvious to me that your ‘objection’ is based more on your skepticism of‘ ‘Christianity’ as a whole rather than those who may, in this particular case, hide beneath its mantle no matter what they chose call themselves. I simply was trying to make that distinction and thus I can tithe with a clear conscience where as you apparently are not able to. Am I wrong, my friend? Better to change ‘the dirty water’ rather than ‘throw the whole baby out’ – a big distinction indeed!

Posted by: descendantofacrusader

at November 27, 2007 9:45 AM

Hmmm. Aren't Christians supposed to pray for peace, not pay for peace? This letter will soon be shown to be cheap currency indeed.

BTW TeachESL, the last pope, John Paul II, in his trip to Israel publicly apologized for Catholic persecutions of the Jews through the centuries and placed a letter in the West Wall requesting forgiveness for such deeds.

Posted by: Chatillon

at November 27, 2007 9:54 AM

Apparently, in their rush to appear morally superior and "evolved", these "Christian" leaders and academics did not have enough common sense to wonder to themselves why Pope Benedict and the Orthodox leaders didn't respond to this letter.

Maybe because it's a ruse and not a legitimate action to respond to earnestly?

However, the Islamic scholars will get as much out of this as they can knowing that the big fish that they addressed the letter to aren't biting. They will use it to sow dissent amongst the Christians in the West and try to divide us between those who want to "work" with Islam as 2 of the (BS!) Abrahaimic faiths for peace in the world and those Christian leaders who are hell bent on creating a global religious war between Christians and Muslims.

Remember all, we live in a strange time where white is black and black is white. Those who want war and submission will be perceived as those who are fighting for peace. And those who believe in peace with your fellow man will be seen as angling for war.

Best to put on your thinking caps, people.

Posted by: GuardianofPeaceandJustice

at November 27, 2007 10:08 AM

GuardianofPeaceandJustice,

"Apparently, in their rush to appear morally superior and "evolved", these "Christian" leaders and academics did not have enough common sense to wonder to themselves why Pope Benedict and the Orthodox leaders didn't respond to this letter.

Maybe because it's a ruse and not a legitimate action to respond to earnestly?"

It could be because the leaders of the larger churches know in TRUTH what is going on in the countries in which Muslims are in majority with their Christian minorities.

Posted by: bigcatgirl13106

at November 27, 2007 10:28 AM

Descendantofacrusader, I am pleased that you can call these signatories "Christians in name only" and absolve yourself of all responsibility. I don't believe it's that easy.

You don't care what you demomination does with that money; even if they use it to prepare letters such as the subject of this thread?

I do not believe that one has to give money to a church to be a good Christian; there are other deserving charities. The last church I attended had a full time music director who was paid more than my hard-working father earned. My aversion is not to Christianity; it is to these mega-churches that have budgets larger than some municipalities.

Posted by: Pelayo

at November 27, 2007 10:29 AM

what a betrayal of all things Christian

these people are sick

Posted by: ploome

at November 27, 2007 10:39 AM

There has to be some significance to the fact that most of the signatories were not denominational leaders. Most of those who signed were academics or people involved in fellowships or some kind of other non-denominational religious endeavor. (The pointy headed types)

As I posted earlier, there were only nine people whom I could clearly associate with a single Christian denomination.

What would be interesting to know is the names of those who were invited to participate but refused.

Posted by: Pelayo

at November 27, 2007 10:43 AM

the signifigance of this, is the demonstration of the profound ignorance of the signatories

the arabs/bedouin from Arabia conquered Israel, Babylon, Assyria and Persia, displaced the indiginous Jews, Christinans and Zoroastrians

and somehow, have convinced history that the arabs and muslim culture BELONGS in the middle east, to the exclusion of all others

the Crusades were an attempt to protect the Christians from the oppressive violence and brutality of the muslim/arab conquerers

what the hell are these people apologizing for?

Posted by: ploome

at November 27, 2007 10:53 AM

I think the letter is a good thing. Certainly many Christians have hurt many Muslims. People who say they don't sin are liars. The same statement that many Christians have hurt many Hindus is also correct. The letter does not specify which hurts and which Muslims.

I think the letter is also in keeping with Christian ethics and ideals. We must attempt offers of real peace and real reconciliation, since the God of the Jews has reconciled with us through the atoning sacrifice of Jesus Christ on the cross.

I hope the letter works, however I doubt it because Islam is a false religion and Muslims are, like most of humanity, "in love with the darkness". Muslims have submitted to a false god and a false prophet, and therefore their view of reality is extremely distorted. Sure, there is still some goodness expressed in Islam, but its false teachings will constantly and frustratingly lead Muslims into violence and futility. This is seen throughout the globe and through history. Islam is a dead end for humanity.

What I would also hope that would follow this letter is a challenge to the evil committed by Islam. Both actively through support for Jihad, but more importantly for what is being "left undone". Muslims around the world are not condemning Jihadism or fighting the underlying theology. Will Christian leaders have the courage to confront Islam. This too is a form of love, since Jesus said he came to bring a sword. Not the sword of violence (all commentaries agree on this), but rather the sword of truth (In Revelation, the sword comes from his mouth). Blessings on Mr. Spencer for being one of the few, who peaceably is using the sword of truth to slay the legions of Muslim lies.

In time, Christian leaders will understand what Islam is, and so will secularists around the world. It is then globally humanity will answer the evil that is Islam.

Posted by: James Martel

at November 27, 2007 11:06 AM

Posted by: grizlybear

at November 27, 2007 11:26 AM

There should be no apologizing from any Christians until the Muslims start first, since it was from the Muslim side that the troubles started.

Posted by: bigcatgirl13106

at November 27, 2007 11:45 AM

Pelayo,

I’m sorry that you seem to resent the fact the song leader of the Christian church you once attended made more money than your father but that, unfortunately, has absolutely nothing to do with anything. What are you trying to say: that your father worked harder that the song leader and therefore deserved more money? What? That’s a tenuous analogy to at the very least and certainly does not absolve a sincere Christian church member from tithing which, by the way, is biblically ordained. No matter as I don’t think you want to be confused with such subtleties’ I just think it is unfair to make generalizations about all Christians and cynical notions of just how tithes are used. Respectfully: those are my opinions on your initial generalization and, other than that, I suppose that you can make things as difficult or complicated as you wish.

Posted by: descendantofacrusader

at November 27, 2007 11:46 AM

I pray that the time will come soon when these sorry clowns will have a reason to apologize for our having removed the Mohammedans from the West.

Posted by: thomas. h

at November 27, 2007 11:52 AM

I don't resent that music director's salary; I am a firm believer in supply and demand determining pay rates. I do believe that organized churches are becoming businesses instead of places of worship. Do you think a church should attract members by advertising the hiring of a new music director in a half page ad in the newspaper? My former church did. The part about the director's pay was just part of the story that caused several members to leave.

Cynical? You bet - read that letter again.

Posted by: Pelayo

at November 27, 2007 12:09 PM

As I was reading through this who's who list of mostly liberal Protestant ministers (I could find only two Catholics and one self-labelled "Orthodox") I wondered what qualified any of them to speak on this subject.

For instance, they referred to Muhammed as a "prophet" thus separating themselves from Christianity altogether. If you recognize Mo as a prophet then by definition you are no longer Christian.

As for the First Crusade, this was an activity embarked on by Roman Catholics at the request of the Orthodox Emperor Alexius I Comnenus. It was declared during the Council of Clermont called by Pope Urban II with the approval of the delegates sent by the Emperor.

Therefore, according to Roman Catholic doctrine, acceptance of this decaration of holy war against the Muslims was binding on all Catholics as infallible. For a Catholic Bishop like Camillo Ballin, Bishop, Vicar Apostolic of Kuwait to apoligize for an infallible act of the Church in a properly called ecumenical council, means that he has placed himself in formal schism.

As for all the protestants on this list, since protestantism did not exist at the time of the Crusades, they have no more right to apologize for an act of the Catholic Church than they do for actions by Hindus, Wiccans, or any other non-Catholic faith. Only the proper teaching authorities of the Catholic and Orthodox Churches are qualified to issue such a statement and they are not likely to do so.

Posted by: Provoslavni

at November 27, 2007 12:13 PM

Pelayo:
"Cynical? You bet - read that letter again."

I did and you are. Perhaps you might look into changing churches, my friend!

Posted by: descendantofacrusader

at November 27, 2007 12:21 PM

"I think the letter is a good thing. Certainly many Christians have hurt many Muslims. People who say they don't sin are liars."

Individua