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Often when I have pointed out that in Islamic law the penalty for apostasy is death, I am dismissed as an "Islamophobe." But there seem to be a few "Islamophobes" in the audience at Al-Risala TV. "Muslim Scholars Debate Apostates in Islam," from MEMRI:
Following are excerpts from a debate on apostates in Islam, which aired on Al-Risala TV on November 5, 2007.Sheik Tareq Al-Sweidan: We have a question for the viewers at home, not in the studio, and they can respond with a text message. What is the best way to deal with apostates who converted from Islam? You have three possible responses. The first is through dialogue only. The second option is killing them, and the third option is to leave it up to the legal system. Enter your votes, send in your answers, and the results will appear on the screen. As for the young people with us in the studio, you can participate in a survey on which we will base our discussion with our guests. You've heard one opinion, and my question is very simple: Does a Muslim have the liberty to change his religion or not? Does a Muslim have the liberty to change his religion?
[...]
Al-Sweidan: If a person converted out of conviction, should he be declared an infidel?
Abir: First, he should be allowed to repent. We should explain his error to him, and if he is adamant on rejecting this and insists on his interpretation, he should be allowed to repent and have the opportunity to...
Al-Sweidan: And afterwards, he should be pronounced an infidel?
Abir: I believe he should be.
Al-Sweidan: Thank you, Abir. Let's move to Fatima. What's your opinion?
Fatima: In my opinion, he should be declared an infidel. Why is there a problem with declaring people to be infidels?
Al-Sweidan: I'm not saying there is, I'm just asking a question.
Fatima: He should be declared an infidel. The Koran divided people into Muslims, infidels, and the People of the Book. So there is a group of people who should be declared infidels.
[...]
Gamal 'Allam: With regard to matters of faith, the Sunni scholars have agreed that some acts lead to the excommunication of a person. If a person commits any of these acts, he is considered an infidel. The first case is denying something that is irrefutably part of Islam.
[...]
Gamal 'Allam: Another case is when a person forbids something that is irrefutably permitted. If Allah permitted something, and along comes somebody and forbids it...
Al-Sweidan: For example, some Muslim countries forbid polygamy.
Gamal 'Allam: Someone who forbids polygamy is an infidel, who should be excommunicated, because he is defying Allah in his right to forbid and permit.
[...]
Gamal 'Allam: Whoever rules according to a law other than the law sent down by Allah, and who does so out of full awareness and conviction...
[...]
Gamal 'Allam: If he believes that his law is equal to the law of Allah, he is comparing Allah to human beings, and thus, he is an infidel. If he believes his law to be better than the law of Allah, then he prefers the creature over its Creator, and thus, he is an infidel.
Gamal 'Allam: Anybody who calls people to worship him...
Al-Sweidan: Obviously, like Pharaoh.
Gamal 'Allam: Yes, anyone who called upon people...or who claimed he was the son of God, or that he...
Al-Sweidan: This is obvious.
[...]
Gamal 'Allam: One is considered an infidel if one curses Allah, His messenger, or the Koran, or who mocks the Prophet's family.
[...]
Gamal 'Allam: Whoever mocks Muslim men or women because of their religion...I don't mean a person who has a dispute with someone, and says to him: You mock me as a Muslim, you are an infidel. I mean a person who mocks or curses a Muslim because he prays...
Al-Sweidan: In other words, he mocks the religion.
Gamal 'Allam: He mocks one of the religious rites. For example, a person who mocks a woman for wearing the veil...
[...]
Gamal Al-Bana: Whoever says: "There is no god but Allah, and Muhammad is the Messenger of Allah" is a Muslim. End of discussion. It is not our place to delve into the details of his belief. In addition, heresy and faith are, first of all, up to Allah, and secondly, they are personal issues.
[...]
Al-Sweidan: Before the break, I asked our audience for their views on this important issue. Does a Muslim have the liberty or the right to change his religion? The results are as follows: 24% said: "Yes, he has the right to change his religion." 76% of the people said: "No." Let's hear some opinions and then I will return to out guests.
[...]
Audience member: Sir, if you become an apostate, your punishment is death. There is a great problem that most of us, 70% of us, are Muslims because they were born to Muslim fathers and mothers. Before a person converts to Islam, he has the liberty to choose, but remember that if you want to convert from Islam, you will be punished by death. So you have the liberty to choose, but on the condition...
Al-Sweidan: That's not liberty.
Audience member: It has conditions...
Al-Sweidan: What you are saying is: You have the right to become an apostate, but I will kill you.
Audience member: That's right. I won't tell him not to.
Al-Sweidan: What can be worse than being killed?
Audience member: That's why he will not become an apostate.
Good thinking.
Posted by Robert at December 4, 2007 6:35 AM
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It's hard to believe this discussion took place in 2007. Same old, same old since 622 AD.
Posted by: ImNoDhimmi![[TypeKey Profile Page]](http://www.jihadwatch.org/dhimmiwatch/nav-commenters.gif)
at December 4, 2007 7:05 AM
""Sir, if you become an apostate, your punishment is death"
...if you are a nonMuslim and wish to become a Muslim....your reward is also death.....Islam guarrantees it....
..Ban Muslim Immigration...
at December 4, 2007 7:06 AM
""Sir, if you become an apostate, your punishment is death"
We should apply a similar penalty to Westerners who convert to Islam--not death, but at the very least to deprive them of citizenship.
Posted by: RoobartSbunsar at December 4, 2007 7:09 AM
Fatima: In my opinion, he should be declared an infidel. Why is there a problem with declaring people to be infidels?Al-Sweidan: I'm not saying there is, I'm just asking a question.
Fatima: He should be declared an infidel. The Koran divided people into Muslims, infidels, and the People of the Book. So there is a group of people who should be declared infidels.
That Fatima would ask the question:
Why is there a problem with declaring people to be infidels? - sounds suspiciously like PC uncertainty is seeping into their culture as well.
****
Gamal 'Allam: Whoever mocks Muslim men or women because of their religion...I don't mean a person who has a dispute with someone, and says to him: You mock me as a Muslim, you are an infidel. I mean a person who mocks or curses a Muslim because he prays...
No one mocks you for your expression of faith with God. It is your definition of 'God' which is mocked. The practice of Islam is so overwhelmingly controlling of every thought, action, belief - a majority of believers no longer have the ability to recognize the machinations and obvious self serving delusion of a self identified 'prophet', a desert madman.
Islam cannot stand against the test of free inquiry - hence, jihad. Islam must be mocked, chastised, exposed to ridicule.
Given the enormous numbers of followers chained to unquestioning submission as designed by this desert madman, the challenge will be for those capable of developing free and skeptical inquiry outrightly disavowing the jihad mentality and finding a substitute "faith" to commune with a 'God' who unequivacally accepts equality of all humanity.
When Gamal 'Allam and his ilk can see all women and 'people of the book' as full equals, skeptical inquiry will no longer appear a threat.
Posted by: justamomof4 at December 4, 2007 7:44 AM
Okay, that last bit is Monty Python-esque. Muslims and Logic.
Posted by: AnneCrockett at December 4, 2007 8:32 AM
Become a Muslim or we will kill you.
Remain a Muslim or we will kill you.
"Insult" (the definition of insult has been expanded to include teddy bears) Islam and we will kill you.
If it walks like a cult and talks like a cult, it must be a cult.
Posted by: tanstaafl at December 4, 2007 8:36 AM
This sounds like some of the dialog from The View. Whoopee!
Posted by: TheOmegaMan at December 4, 2007 10:05 AM
Heather Nauert made Ms. Gibbons' presidential pardon perfectly clear to 'The Big Story' audience yesterday.
You see, 'Muslim scholars' have determined that intent is the determining factor in assigning punishment for the 'crime' of insulting Islam.
It apparently didn't occur to her that a good flogging would be quite appropriate then for those who 'insult Islam' maliciously and with aforethought; non-Muslims included.
Neither, apparently, did the global scope of those learned Islamic scholars' opinions occur to her.
The rules are the rules, right? Surely those opinions carry the same weight in Dearborn and Lodi as in Lahore and Khartoum; don't they?
It's obvious that errant Muslims and unbelievers should also be imprisoned, flogged, or fined for intentionally insulting Islam in Los Angeles, too.
And now, killed for apostasy as well.
I mean, who are we to challenge the religious rulings of Muslim scholars?
Perhaps dear Heather will clarify this for us in the near future.
Posted by: PRCS at December 4, 2007 10:30 AM
It is quite good news that the problem of apostasy is being openly debated in the Muslim world. Even though most of the response was absurd, at least the Islamic authorities are aware that people are leaving the religion. They can't kill everyone, and the ridicule they are suffering from, what with the cartoons and teddy bears, is having an effect. Keep mocking, because the devil can't stand to be mocked.
Posted by: Quijybo at December 4, 2007 10:37 AM
Islamania-you can check in but you can't check out.
Now that I've read the words "There is no god but Illah and Mo is his prophet" does this make me a member of the cult of death? If so let those deadly fatwas fly!
Posted by: ISLAMSFORLOSERS at December 4, 2007 11:54 AM
So you have the liberty to choose, but on the condition...
Al-Sweidan: That's not liberty.
Audience member: It has conditions...
Al-Sweidan: What you are saying is: You have the right to become an apostate, but I will kill you.
Audience member: That's right. I won't tell him not to.
Al-Sweidan: What can be worse than being killed?
Audience member: That's why he will not become an apostate.
[...]
Gamal 'Allam: Islam is the only religion that begins with the imperative "Read." It is the only reasonable and convincing religion.
Al-Sweidan: But what if a person is not convinced?
Gamal 'Allam: Then there is something wrong in his head. **There must be something wrong with mine**
Al-Sweidan: That's what you think, but isn't he entitled to have something wrong in his head?
Gamal 'Allam: Anybody who is insane should go to a mental asylum, or else if he is insane, his head should be removed so that it does not contaminate the heads of others.
Yep, "there is no compulsion in religion."
at December 4, 2007 12:13 PM
Meanwhile, garbage piling up in the streets, children not being educated...
The Koran must be one obsessive, puzzling, mesmerizing book.
Posted by: JohnAdams at December 4, 2007 12:56 PM
ImNoDhimmi said:
“It's hard to believe this discussion took place in 2007. Same old, same old since 622 AD”
It’s hard to believe that this kind of discussion EVER took place – 2007 or 622 AD – EVER – evil is evil.
"Please allow me to introduce myself
I'm a man of wealth and taste
I've been around for a long, long years
Stole many a man's soul and faith
And I was 'round when Jesus Christ
Had his moment of doubt and pain
Made damn sure that Pilate
Washed his hands and sealed his fate
Pleased to meet you
Hope you guess my name
But what's confusing you
Is just the nature of my game" The Stones
at December 4, 2007 2:11 PM
Sir, if you become an apostate, your punishment is death
RoobartSbunsar:
We should apply a similar penalty to Westerners who convert to Islam--not death, but at the very least to deprive them of citizenship.
RoobartSbunsar,
Don't limit your options.
Sir, if you don't become an apostate, your punishment is death
Posted by: RalphInfidel at December 4, 2007 2:19 PM
you will be punished by death. So you have the liberty to choose, but on the condition...
--------------------------------------
This is typical of the totalitarian mindset and is so much like Communism. During a 1918 politburo meeting comrade Shliapnikov questioned Lenin about his bloody suppression of a worker's strike in Petrograd.
Lenin: "They are perfectly free to strike"
Schliapnikov: "But you ordered the Red Army to fire on them"
Lenin: "Of course, they are anti-revolutionary elements"
Schliapnikov: "But comrade, you said they had the freedom to strike"
Lenin: "They do. In the new Soviet society, we have absolute freedom"
Schliapnikov: "But you ordered them to be shot"
Lenin: "Exactly! They have the absolute freedom to strike and I have the absolute freedom to shoot them for it."
Posted by: Provoslavni at December 4, 2007 2:58 PM
I hope everyone has taken note that this Tareq Al-Sweidan, participating in this debate on whether or not one should kill apostates and 'insulters' of Islam, was one of the signatories to that 'Letter from the Muslims to the Christians' just a little while ago?
Posted by: dumbledoresarmy at December 4, 2007 5:08 PM
"RoobartSbunsar,
Don't limit your options.
Sir, if you don't become an apostate, your punishment is death"
I see no need to kill them. Kicking them out of the country is good enough for me.
Posted by: RoobartSbunsar at December 4, 2007 6:59 PM
when i was in india in 1990, we went to so some famous mosque in delhi. well i was naive (now im just plain crazy) and our guide suggested i bow down and say allah akhbar or whatever. well after i performed the task he said "you are now a muslim".
so is leon the pig farmer an apostate muslim?
Posted by: leonthepigfarmer at December 4, 2007 7:11 PM
Islam insults my intelligence daily.
They are apostates from sanity.
On with their heads!
(Which appear to be missing, judging from the level of "thinking" going on.)
Posted by: profitsbeard at December 4, 2007 9:26 PM
In watching the video (see LGF), it strikes me that any of the young people in that audience might request permission to immigrate here, to America (or other western nations), and they will bring that mindset with them.
Indeed, how many Muslims have already arrived here, bringing such religious beliefs here, too.
Take a look at the kid giving the 'Sir, if you become an apostate...' line.
Regular looking kid, eh. If you didn't know where he really lives or couldn't hear him speak, you'd have no reason to suspect he's a murderous little Muslim fundamentalist.
A little Muslim fundamentalist who could end up living right next door to me, or my daughter, or my granddaughters.
Posted by: PRCS at December 5, 2007 5:01 AM
If you don't put MEMRI's site in your browser's bookmarks, you should.
It's like watching Hitler read "Mein Kampf".
Horrifying, yet informative.
Posted by: tanstaafl at December 5, 2007 2:31 PM
What could be worse than being killed? Spending the rest of one's life as a Muslim. Muslims who become Christians, and the Christians who convert them, are particular targets. But they take that risk because it is worth it!
Posted by: 1389 at December 5, 2007 7:52 PM
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