Im glad Iman Bush is so determined to speed this up.

Posted by: Elric66 at December 4, 2007 7:34 AM

"Christian leaders are being forced to abandon their followers to the forces of radical Islam,"

...a word to the wise.....Ban Muslim Immigration...

Posted by: exsgtbrown at December 4, 2007 7:43 AM

I would like to thank those back stabing, lying, degenerate, awful, dishonest, weak and coward "Christian" leaders world wide who remain in total silence to the persecution of Christians in Islamic lands, while being very fast to condemn Israel when a stone-throwing Palestinian kid dies at the hand of israeli soldiers (what are children doing there anyway? Oh, propaganda!).

We could go on citing their names, but we won't.

Thanks for being silent while christian blood flows at the hands of Muslims.

Thanks for spending more time in "creating bridges" with Muslims while not caring for the ones for whom you were elected to care.

May God have mercy on you.

Posted by: Crusader at December 4, 2007 7:52 AM

oh, and thank you, mr George Bush, for giving money for Christian killers.
Thank you mrs Rice for being silent on this issue aswell.

Posted by: Crusader at December 4, 2007 7:53 AM

...15 years is optimistic....

Posted by: exsgtbrown at December 4, 2007 7:57 AM

No one city in the Holy Land is more indicative of the great exodus of Christians than Bethlehem, which fell under full Palestinian control last decade as part of the Oslo Accords. The town of 30,000 is now less than 20% Christian, after decades when Christians were the majority. Elsewhere in the Palestinian territories, only about 3,000 Christians, mostly Greek Orthodox, live in the Hamas-run Gaza Strip, out of a strongly conservative Muslim population of 1.4 million. "In a society where Arab Christians have no voice and no protection it is no surprise that they are leaving," he said.

Based on the above statement, the Christian population of Bethlehem dropped from 30% to 20% when contrasted with this comment by Hugh back in July:

And in the "West Bank" under the Slow Jihadists of Fatah, the Christian population has been going steadily down ever since the "Palestinian Authority" came into being, and Bethlehem, 60% Christian within recent memory, is now 30% Christian, or less -- as the daily harassment and persecution and threats and attacks (Christian girls seized, or raped, Christian men killed) continue without protest, of course, by the the local islamochristians (Hanan Ashrawi, Naim Ateek, Michel Sabbagh) who have so deeply internalized the Islamic view in order to more effectively promote, as they all do, the Lesser Jihad against Israel, and would do nothing that all that might harm the image, as they see it, of the "Palestinian" cause even though, in front of them, the Christian "Palestinians" whose interests one might think would matter to them, are being harried either out of the "Palestinian Authority"-held territories and into the wekcinubg safety of Jerusalem, where under the Israelis the Christians know they will be safe, even if many of them still do not dare to speak about this publicly. -Posted by: Hugh at July 1, 2007 7:25 AM

Alarming statistics to be sure. How would the likes of Hanan Ashrawi address such concerns today?

Posted by: justamomof4 at December 4, 2007 7:57 AM

60 minutes said that the American military was driving out the Christians in Iraq.
There has to be a way to blame the US for this too.
sarc off

Posted by: Aunt Bea at December 4, 2007 8:03 AM

Assalamau Laikum all,

Crusader, Bigcatgirl and the other christians here....you see your faith being eroded in the place where your faith began....your brethren are leaving....you know this....

So why don't you pack your things and move to the pal controlled areas to shore up things. Look at the advantages....

you bring money with you to start up new business, increase the level of spiritual understanding, take weapons for your protection (if that helps)....but above all, you bring new christian blood to the area.

what's stopping you then?...not a lack of faith I hope....Jesus PBUh will be there in spirit with you surely!

Posted by: Naseem at December 4, 2007 8:15 AM

Naseem,

Better yet, why dont we take back all the land stolen by Islam?

Posted by: Elric66 at December 4, 2007 8:24 AM

Naseem;

Crusader, Bigcatgirl and the other christians here....you see your faith being eroded in the place where your faith began....your brethren are leaving....you know this....

The faith is not being eroded. The number of people who trust in the Lord Jesus is decreasing. which is diferent from our faith "being eroded".

So why don't you pack your things and move to the pal controlled areas to shore up things. Look at the advantages....

Yes, there are many advantages of living under Islamic fascism, so much so that not even Muslims want to live under it. Remember when the Pals were running away from Muslims (Hamas) into the arms of Jews (Israel)?

I don't pack my things and go to the Muslim controled areas because I am not insane.

But since you bring that up, let em turn the table and ask you: if Muslims suffer so much "oppression" and "islamophobia" in the civilized/non-muslim nations, why don't they "pack their thigns and move to that Muslim controled areas"?

Why don't you live what you preach?

you bring money with you to start up new business, increase the level of spiritual understanding,

huh?!!

take weapons for your protection (if that helps)....

but above all, you bring new christian blood to the area.

what's stopping you then?...

Posted by: Crusader at December 4, 2007 8:30 AM

Looks like Mushyraf finally let Naseem out of jail.

What you don't understand deary is that when Christians believe in Jesus they can carry that belief in the tinyist pocket of their hearts. we don't require a location or a big black rock.
And if they leave because they are killed defending the faith... well read Revelations and look under the throne.

Posted by: Aunt Bea at December 4, 2007 8:54 AM

This is one of those situations where you want to do more, but have no idea how to??? I would imagine those of you who go to church, regardless of whether you are Catholic, Orthodox or Protestant, hear nothing about this.... I certianly don't....

The level of silence on this is distressing. Equally distressing is the complete lack of coverage regarding it.

For a long time I have been wanting to visit the area and see those holy sites. As sad as it is, I should probably do so within the next year if at all. It seems very likely no opportunity will exists once hamas and the pa have driven all the Christians out.

This is the only site I have found which is legit where donations will go to help:

http://www.mirezo.com/

Posted by: adobe at December 4, 2007 9:25 AM

If the Christians of Palestines are Arabs, how is it that they are killed by Arabs?

Posted by: Berytius_Libanicus at December 4, 2007 11:34 AM

If the Christians of Palestines are Arabs, how is it that they are killed by Arabs?

What sort of logic is that?

Posted by: Berytius_Libanicus at December 4, 2007 11:35 AM

Assalamau Laikum adobe,

I'm afraid that simple donations will not "cut the mustard" as they say in France.

If it were us (muslims) facing this problem, then we would follow our prophet Muhd's SAW advice for special prayers. At these prayers muslims are expected to get together, and pray and I have seen upto 30,000 peoples from a handful of villages congregate for these.

You see the prophet would ask all peoples to make an appearance ....even "dirty" womens ...by this I mean the mensurating ones....strictly speaking mensurating womens are not allowed to pray as these are not accepted...however when there are special needs....they are expected to show up for solidtary...where is your christian solidtary?

We usually have the opposite problem....there are too many of us!

Posted by: Naseem at December 4, 2007 11:36 AM

The Sabeel Center of "Liberation Theology" blames Israel for the plight of Palestinian Christian Arabs. I am not making this up.

Unfortunately, Sabeel has financial support from mainline Protestant churches in the UK and USA. They have recruited Bishop Tutu to condemn Israel's "aparteid" policies.
http://www.sabeel.org

--
CT Yank

Posted by: CTYankee at December 4, 2007 11:48 AM

The entire Middle East is becoming De-Christianized,
if you think about it. 90 percent of the Christians have left Iraq according to Andrew White. If the US offered Visas to the various Christian groups in the Middle East, how many would choose to stay there?

Posted by: Mister Ghost at December 4, 2007 11:59 AM

The entire history of dhimmitude - if Bat Ye'or is to be believed (and I believe she is) - is one in which the religious leaders of the dhimmis were corrupted by Muslim machinations into becoming servile AND self-serving functionaries of the system.

The dhimmis were ostensibly governed by their own religious leaders, chosen by Muslim overlords who more often than not sold the office to the highest bidder. Typically, the dhimmi communities were pitted against one another; one sect would be chosen to represent an entire community of Christians or Jews. This created internal jealousies and rivalries that precluded any effective unity among the dhimmis.

Today, it is less about corruption than it is about naked fear, but there is also a strong ideological component involved. The former Christian Orthodox Patriarch of Jerusalem was a staunch supporter of Palestinian suicide bombings, appropriating the language of the Jihadists to a degree that made him look more extreme than most officials of Fatah.

Let's face it, the Muslims have had 1400 years to perfect the conditioning of dhimmis. The narrative put forth in Western universities and newsrooms so unequivocally validating the myth of Islamic tolerance is NOT being forcibly imposed on us by any stretch.

It is a voluntary compliance, rooted in identity politics, the corrupting influence of petro-dollars and most importantly, in a Western predilection for self-abasement. Islam is now seen as the "anti-West"...which is why it is so blindly championed by the Liberal/Left.

Posted by: Cornelius at December 4, 2007 12:17 PM

The Christians are only leaving because they are racist islamophobic bigots who refuse to live in peace with their muslim neighbours.

Or words to that effect will be penned by some leftist apologist dhimmi.

Posted by: Celsius at December 4, 2007 12:36 PM

The Palistinian Christians are leaving their homeland because of the violence and oppression on them by their Muslim neighbor. All they are doing is going to countries in which they can pratice their Christian faith freely, ( USA, Canada, Austriaia, ete., ). This is not suprising because it is the goal of the Muslims to have a Christian-free Middle East. The Christian shrines will still have Christians there, but only by clergy and religious orders who take care of those shrines. But Christanity is BOOMING bigtime in the global south, and nations such as Nigeria, China, and India add new members daily in this booming growth.

Posted by: bigcatgirl13106 at December 4, 2007 12:51 PM

"If the Christians of Palestines are Arabs, how is it that they are killed by Arabs?

What sort of logic is that?"

Easy--they're Christians. Muslims hate Christians. Ergo, Muslims kill Christians.

Posted by: RoobartSbunsar at December 4, 2007 1:04 PM

"You see the prophet would ask all peoples to make an appearance ....even "dirty" womens ...by this I mean the mensurating ones....strictly speaking mensurating womens are not allowed to pray as these are not accepted...however when there are special needs....they are expected to show up for solidtary...where is your christian solidtary?" ---Naseem

Humph. What kind of God would create a female creature who monthly has an issue of blood, and then hold that characteristic against her by not allowing her to pray? Why would He teach his creatures that this makes a woman "dirty?"

Behold the difference between illah and the great, true god Jehovah! At least in ancient Israel, even though a woman had to retire from the group during her menses, she could still worship her Lord!

Posted by: Stand fast in the liberty at December 4, 2007 1:24 PM

"We usually have the opposite problem....there are too many of us!"

Posted by: Naseem at December 4, 2007 11:36 AM

But Nasseem, this is also our problem; - there are, indeed, too many of you around.
Could you please go mensurate somewhere else? Wouldn't Mecca (for example) be a perfect place for mensurating? No?
Well, how about Somalia? Sahara then? Mars...?

Posted by: thomas. h at December 4, 2007 2:01 PM

This ethnic cleansing of Christians has been going on for a while...and why? One reason is that Palestinian Christians are the ONLY population in the Holy Land who are completely disarmed.

On this, I will criticize Israel but for a very different reason than the left. Israel squandered a real opportunity to create a potential ally that could have helped them tremendously in Judea and Samaria. Just imagine if, in the 1970s and '80s, Israel had done the same in the "territories" that they did in Lebanon. Arm and train a Christian militia to take on the Muslim terrorists in Ramallah, Bethlehem and Jenin.

Not only would this militia be able to protect the Christian population from Muslim rapes and expulsions but would be able to deal effectively with terrorist organizations in ways that the Israeli government could't dare for fear of offending its American patrons. Yes I'm thinking of how the Kataib Lubnan (Lebanese Falange) wiped out the terrorist camps of Sabra and Shatila in 1982. The Israeli army coudn't dare carry out such a necessary operation but the Lebabese Forces could.

Now imagine an armed and highly trained "Kataib Filistin" able to take on Hamas and wipe out their terrorist camps. This would not only protect the Christians but also would greatly aid Israel. Unfortunately, Israel squandered that opportunity by wrongly lumping the Christians in with the Muslims as if they were all just Arabs. However, there are still enough Christians left that it could still be done. Let's pray that Israel will wake up to this reality before it is too late.

Posted by: Provoslavni at December 4, 2007 2:32 PM

"...but above all, you bring new christian blood to the area. ..."

...i suppose that is an accurate statement....

Posted by: exsgtbrown at December 4, 2007 2:45 PM

In another thread, a reasoned explanation of why Kosovo must be preserved is given. In a similar vein, a way must be found to protect the lives and freedom of conscience of non-Moslems throughout the world and particularly within the Middle East. There is not likely to be any money in it nor any thanks unless it is to be the thanks of future generations. But it is the right thing to do. To stand up to the bullies and psychopaths. To end the pretense that the West is dealing with anything other than a vicious form of mass psychosis. Ethnic cleansing, one of the symptoms of this psychosis, is no longer an internal matter for any given state. Or have the lessons of the Second World War been so completely forgotten?

Posted by: Chatillon at December 4, 2007 3:13 PM

test

Posted by: jsla at December 4, 2007 4:31 PM

"Yes I'm thinking of how the Kataib Lubnan (Lebanese Falange) wiped out the terrorist camps of Sabra and Shatila in 1982. The Israeli army coudn't dare carry out such a necessary operation but the Lebabese Forces could."

...you seem to be claiming that the horrific massacres at Sabra and Shatila were somehow "necessary."

That tells me all I need to know.

Posted by: RoobartSbunsar at December 4, 2007 4:41 PM

I grew up in a suburb of Detroit, and came to know quite a few Arab Christians in early life. Whenever the topic of the Israeli crisis came up (this was the era of "Palestinians" hijacking planes, Israeli athletes being slaughtered in Berlin, the "Arab Oil Embargo", and many other manifestations of Islamic Jihad) these Christian Arabs spoke with one voice only about their enemy -- and it was the Jew. They were filled to overflowing with hatred for Jews. To some extent this formulation allowed me to place the Israel/"Palestine" issue into the category of racial strife -- devoid of any involvement with Islam. I now know this was a mistake on my part.

Due to this exposure, I also find it very difficult to have any sympathy for Arab Christians. Even famous Western Arab Christians like John Zogby are on the payroll of their Saudi paymasters, and hold the Jews to account for all the abject failures of the entire Islamic world. I also find it rich to hear the likes of Mahathir Mohamad, the former Prime Minister of Malaysia to also espouse this same abject hatred for Jews (and all infidels). It wasn't until 9/11 that I was forced to re-appraise many of the assumptions I'd made, and much of the propaganda I'd been fed by the legions of Muslim invaders in the West and their abettors. Upon reading the heinous Koran, and reading sites like JihadWatch, it has become clear to me that genocidal precepts form a major part of the supremacist doctrine of Islam. Perhaps Christian Arabs can be thought of as absolutely crushed dhimmi victims of Islam at this point -- but with only a few exceptions Arab Christians such as Nonie Darwash speaking out AGAINST Islam, while most other Arab Christians choose to blame the Jews, and NEVER can be found criticizing their Muslim Arab "brothers" -- it's hard not to say let them suffer their fate. It appears to me that Arab Christians do far more to abet the spread of Islam, do far more to abet the whitewashing of Islam, and do far more to perpetuate the scapegoating by Muslims against the Jews and "infidels", than Arab Christians do to repudiate Islam.

Posted by: jsla at December 4, 2007 4:43 PM

Now imagine an armed and highly trained "Kataib Filistin" able to take on Hamas and wipe out their terrorist camps.

Since you applaud the massacre at the Sabra and Shatilla camps, I guess you must applaud the way Assad crushed the Moslem Brotherhood in Hama in 1982? Or is mass murder of noncombatants only OK when Christians do it?

Posted by: Seamus at December 4, 2007 6:47 PM

...these Christian Arabs spoke with one voice only about their enemy -- and it was the Jew...

Posted by: jsla at December 4, 2007 4:43 PM

I must say this was also my experience years ago in Copenhagen.
And I don't think things have changed very much.
I have recently met again a "Palestinian" Christian who some 20 years ago made no bones of his hatred of anything Jewish. He is now very much worried about physical survival of his family on the West Bank which almost daily suffers from moslem harassment. He admits he would do anything to have them move to Israel if that was possible. When I asked him how could he reconcile that with his unabashed anti-semitism he explained that although Moslem may represent immediate and deadly danger now, it is the historical responsibility of the Jews who by creating Israel on the stolen Arab land indirectly set off waves of Christian –Moslem clashes - never known before its creation.
I quipped: “Arabs are murdering Arabs, but Jews are to blame”. Without pausing for even a moment he responded with a firm “yes”!
It is worth noting that this is exactly the position of the liberal Scandinavian media. The more leftist the more blatantly Israel loathing and "understanding" of the Arab terror.

Posted by: thomas. h at December 4, 2007 6:47 PM

"Since you applaud the massacre at the Sabra and Shatilla camps, I guess you must applaud the way Assad crushed the Moslem Brotherhood in Hama in 1982? Or is mass murder of noncombatants only OK when Christians do it?"

My thoughts exactly.

Posted by: RoobartSbunsar at December 4, 2007 6:58 PM

I'm afraid that simple donations will not "cut the mustard" as they say in France.

Please refraim from responding to any of my posts in the future.

Your unwanted reply is incomprehensible and I have no interest in what you have to say on this topic, or for that matter of any other....

Posted by: adobe at December 4, 2007 7:51 PM

For many years now, the Palestinian Christians have been accomplices in their own demise. They thought that it was worth selling out the Jews to ingratiate themselves to the Muslims. Such was the case with the well-known Christian liar Edward Said whose book Orientalism is a long piece of misdirection for Islam. They had thought to dig a grave for the Jews but now are themselves staring into the pit. During the Rabin years, no Christmas or Easter story from the "Holy Land" would be complete without a couple of Israeli tanks at a makeshift manger or some soldiers desporting themselves in the manner of the old Romans. They played to every piece of Christian bigotry. The smarter Palestinian Christians should now realise that the game is up, no more juice can be extracted from Christ killer or nationalist memes.

Posted by: ivan at December 4, 2007 8:44 PM

"I guess you must applaud the way Assad crushed the Moslem Brotherhood in Hama in 1982?"
-----------------------------------

Yes Absolutely! I also applaud King Hussein's destruction of the terrorist organizations in Jordan during the so-call Black September. The result of this wise action is that Jordan has been at peace ever since.

Roobart and Seamus, are there any Muslim murderers that you are not apologists for?

Posted by: Provoslavni at December 4, 2007 9:52 PM

I find it hard to feel sorry for Palestinian Christians, when dhimmi Christians like James Zogby blame Isreal for every Palestinian failure and give tacit approval to Palestinian violence.As the Bible says "you reap what you sow".

Posted by: Roxane at December 4, 2007 10:01 PM

Roxane,

James Zogby is an American of Lebanese ancestry. He has absolutely no Palestinian connection.

Posted by: Provoslavni at December 4, 2007 10:44 PM

Jsla, Thomas, and Ivan,

I have spent most of my life among Palestinian Christians and even have many in my family and this is not my experience. You are judging the Palestinian Christian population by those in the West who have been completely cut off from the realities in their ancestral homeland.

That is because many of them immigrated after losing their homes to the Haganah in 1948 and have no knowledge beyond that. Those that stayed behind or came later carefully distinguish between the Haganah's unjust destruction of the Christian towns like Ikrit or Kafr Bir'im and the Irgun's heroic attempts to defend the Christians. For this reason the Palestinian Christians in the Galil have been some of Likud's most loyal supporters.

Let's face it. Under Labor (and now under Kadima)Israel hasn't had leadership with much foresight and squandered real opportunities to organize these Christians. Instead of being recognized as a distinct community like the Samaritans or Israeli Druze the Christians were simply lumped in with the Muslims as if they were all somehow "Arabs". Of course the Christians are Arabs in a linguistic sense but so were many Middle Eastern Jews two centuries ago.

As I wrote above, in the past Israel may have squandered this opportunity to gain a strong Palestinian Christian ally but it is not too late. Many promiment Israeli leaders now recognize this especially in Likud (like Dore Gold) and in Yisrael Beytenu.

Among Palestinian Christians, this sense of desperation is leading to a new anti-Muslim awakening. One Christian originally from Ikrit but now from Haifa recently told me, "the worst the Jews ever did was take our houses, but the Muslims rape our daughters. If Israel would arm us we'd be glad to fight Hamas."

So while their are several dozen Christians from various villages seving in the IDF, they are all there as individuals and not actively enlisted as are the Druze. This needs to change. Not only should Israel end the exemption/exclusion for Christians serving in the IDF but, as I wrote earlier, they should be organized into acttive militias to fight Hamas directly.

Again, this is an opportunity should not be squandered again.

Posted by: Provoslavni at December 4, 2007 10:45 PM

James Zogby is an American of Lebanese ancestry. He has absolutely no Palestinian connection.

I never said James Zogby was Palestinian, sorry if my comments implied that. I'm also aware he is Christian as he makes a point of saying so whenever he is on C-Span.I do consider James Zogby a dhimmi and an apologist for Palestinian violence and terrorism. I base this on his editorials at the Arab American Institute website.Such as his current editorial The Peace Process on Life Support in which he paints Israel as a regional superpower with the Palestinians as helpless victims.

Posted by: Roxane at December 4, 2007 11:23 PM

Provoslavni,

I know that that I was generalising. Much Israeli discrimination and land grab has been directed at the Christians. They have cause to resent the way they are treated by the Israelis. My point is that if you were a Christian living in that part of the world, which is worse? Someone encroaching on your land, or your women treated as easy prey? The recrudescence of native Islam has made things many times worse for the Christians than all that the Israelis had done. Yet the bleating was always about the Israeli baddies. If they had been fair in apportioning blame, I'd have no hesitation in supporting my fellow Christians. With a Muslim majority either you pay now or your children will pay later, there is no durable relief from this. The Christians have taken stock of that and are leaving. The least they can do now is to wish the Jews well, who after all have decided to stay and fight.

Posted by: ivan at December 5, 2007 1:03 AM

Roxane,

My response was to you saying you couldn't feel sorry for the Palestinian Christians because of dhimmis like Zogby. Sorry, but they certainly cannot be held responsible for the actions of someone to whom they have no connection.

Even more to the point, although he constantly tries to make political points by mentioning his Christian background, Zogby's degree is in Islamic Studies from Temple University. More important is the fact that he serves on the Executive Committee of the US Democratic Party and on the boards of several left-wing American organizations like the ACLU.

He is also the co-president of the arch-dhimmi "Builders for Peace" along with former Democratic US Congressman Mel Levine, a Jewish dhimmi who voted for the War in Iraq. To blame all Palestinian Christians for Zogby who is not Palestinian would be as absurd as blaming all American Jews for Levine who is, in fact, Jewish.

Posted by: Provoslavni at December 5, 2007 1:07 AM

Ivan,

Your point is well taken. Part of the harshness that some Pali-Christians express for Israel is the harshness stemming from disappointment. They rightfully expected better treatment from Israelis since they see correctly themselves as being of the same origin as Jews. Expressing hatred of Muslims is a waste of time since thay cannot expect any better from them.

As one Palestinian friend from Ramallah told me, "Jews and Christians have the same morality and we can live each other. You can't live with the Muslims in my country because they are no better than animals" (her words, not mine).

Posted by: Provoslavni at December 5, 2007 1:15 AM

""I guess you must applaud the way Assad crushed the Moslem Brotherhood in Hama in 1982?"
-----------------------------------

Yes Absolutely! I also applaud King Hussein's destruction of the terrorist organizations in Jordan during the so-call Black September. The result of this wise action is that Jordan has been at peace ever since.

Roobart and Seamus, are there any Muslim murderers that you are not apologists for?"

Hama & Black September, I don't have much of a problem with. The respective regimes were facing armed insurrection & reacted with force. Fully justified.

In Sabra & Shatilla, Christian Falangists walked into CAMPS and murdered women and children.

There's a fundamental difference.

Posted by: RoobartSbunsar at December 5, 2007 6:23 AM

Goes to show that Islam is at war with the Jewish/Christian faiths.

Posted by: bigcatgirl13106 at December 5, 2007 7:29 AM

Pravoslavni,

I found your post interesting and edifying.
You are offering a rather comprehensive and, I think, correct insight to the situation while I was only relating my experience based on a (very) few encounters with Christian Arabs.
I admit if one is to draw general conclusion, or discuss political realities and suggest policies, your views and judgments are of a much greater usefulness than my few private memories. But, again, my comment was never intended to be anything much more than a margin remark.
The only part of it that I think has a significantly more objective value is where I point out the Scandinavian leftist media contribution to Israel-hate through its spreading misinformation about the Israeli-Arab conflict.

Posted by: thomas. h at December 5, 2007 9:35 AM

In Sabra & Shatilla, Christian Falangists walked into CAMPS and murdered women and children.

There's a fundamental difference.
-------------------------------------------

This is typical of the propaganda put out by Muslims and their leftist allies in the media. Let's look at the FACTS:

First: Sabra and Shatila were terrorist training camps and forces from Shatila were involved in the Damour Massacre of Christians six years earlier as well as many more after that. It was a legitimate military target.

Second: the idea that it was a massacre is greatly exaggerated. This originates from reports by Bayan Nuwayhed al-Hout, not exacly an unbiased reporter, who claimed that there were 1300 killed. Soon after the media began inflating the figures to anywhere from 800 (the BBC) to 3500 (Le Monde).

Actually the most accurate count was by the Red Cross who were actually on the scene and who counted 328 bodies, almost all adult male fighters. Very few women and no children were killed.

Remember also that the Muslims had just assassinated President Elect Bashir Gemayel and these "camps" were the primary centers of resistence in the way of Israel securing West Beirut. These were not unarmed civilians. Over thirty Phalangist troops were killed in this battle and LF commander Elie Hobieka was himself slightly wounded.

Now compare Sabra and Shatila to the Damour Massacre six years earlier where Muslim forces slaughtered hundreds of Christian civilians including Hobieka's family. The Muslims first executed the twenty Phalangist militiamen guarding the village. Then they lined all the civilians up against a wall and sprayed them with machine-gun fire. An unknown number of women were raped before being murdered, babies shot at close range, and bodies were mutilated and dismembered. None of the remaining inhabitants survived. In contrast at Sabra and Shatila, there was not a single rape or mutilation and the majority of the population were left unharmed.

Bernard Lewis argued that the response to the massacre was so overwhelming because the event presented an opportunity to blame Jews: "There is no evidence that the teachers of [the Lycée Voltaire] had ever been moved to such action by events in Poland or Uganda, Central America or Afghanistan, South Africa and Southeast Asia, or for that matter in the Middle East where the massacre of Sabra and Shatila... lacked neither precedents nor parallels". He was absolutely correct.

So let's deal in facts, not media hype or Saudi-financed propaganda.

Posted by: Provoslavni at December 5, 2007 9:52 AM

"So let's deal in facts, not media hype or Saudi-financed propaganda."

In other words: if Christians kill hundreds, it's not a massacre. If Muslims do it, it IS a massacre.

That's only half-true.

Posted by: RoobartSbunsar at December 5, 2007 10:03 AM

Roobart and Seamus, are there any Muslim murderers that you are not apologists for?

That's a pretty funny response, coming from an apologist for murders committed by the Assad government of Syria. (Or maybe you figure that, because Assad was an Alawite, he doesn't count as a "Muslim murderer.")

But yet, there are lots of Muslim murderers that I am not an apologist for. I oppose murder, regardless of who commits it, and regardless of what supposedly good end the murderer seeks to achieve.

Posted by: Seamus at December 5, 2007 10:18 AM

"So let's deal in facts, not media hype or Saudi-financed propaganda."

Absolutely, but not only Saudi-financed, but delivered by the lying leftist warfare against Israel and its allies.

It is absolutely revealing of the barefaced and most crude bias of the Leftist propaganda that while practically everybody knows about the Sabra and Shatila massacre, a very tiny number of people ever heard of the Damour Massacre - although it both preceded, lead to and its horrors exceeded MANY times the Sabra and Shatila. The scale of the two was simply incomparable.

That glaring difference in awareness is mainly due to the difference of exposure by the leftist media who rushed madly with an ill-concealed glee to pin the blame for Sabra Shatila on Israel. For the leftist media the incident was a major victory in its war of lies against the Jewish state and they worked themselves into frenzy supplying, inflating and inventing horrifying details. One can not forget the triumphant howling of the Left about “genocidal Zionist” and “Nazi-Sharon”. I remember the incredulity with which it met the emerging facts about the true identity of the perpetrators and the delayed, reluctant and disappointed almost irritated admission the Israel troops were not involved.
It was almost exactly the same disappointment displayed by the Left when the “Jenin massacre” turned to be a lie.

Posted by: thomas. h at December 5, 2007 11:31 AM

In other words: if Christians kill hundreds, it's not a massacre. If Muslims do it, it IS a massacre.

That's only half-true.
----------------------------------------

No Roobart, when an armed force rapes, mutilates, and kills hundreds as the Muslims did in Damour, it is a massacre. However, when any group of soldiers kills armed enemy combatants who are fighting back it is a battle: a clear moral distinction.

At Sabra and Shatila, Falange soldiers were also wounded and killed by armed Muslims which is who they were fighting. Unlike the mass rapes of Damour, no Muslim women were raped and their children were not targeted. The clearest distinction is that there were no civilian survivors left after Damour but the vast majority of civilians at Sabra and Shatila survived unharmed. If the Falange had intended a massacre, afer they secured the camps they could have easily wiped out the entire population. Instead, they focused on killing the active fighters. This is legitimate warfare by almost any definition.

Posted by: Provoslavni at December 5, 2007 12:13 PM

Seamus,

I'm no defender of Hafez al-Assad or his incompetent son. Under Alawite rule, Syria has become a schitzophenic state, ensuring secularism domestically while supporting Islamic Jihad and terror organizations like Hizbullah and Hamas in its foriegn policy.

As for the Hama "massacre" it is true that Assad suppressed the Ikhwan uprising bloodily, killing over twenty thousand people. However, if the Muslim Brotherhood had come to power, just imagine the massacres they would have perpetrated on the Alawites, Christians, and secularists. So while I don't defend Assad, he was certainly better than the alternative.

Posted by: Provoslavni at December 5, 2007 12:21 PM

Thomas, well said!

Posted by: Provoslavni at December 5, 2007 12:27 PM

There WERE women and children killed at Sabra and Shatilla. Plenty of them.

The sources you use seem excessively pro-Falangist in their orientation.

The idea that Christians were utterly incapable of ever committing an atrocity of any kind simply because they are Christians doesn't hold water. Half the time you had the Franjiyehs fighting the Gemayels instead of facing off against the Sunnis or Shi'a or Druze. Everyone from that conflict--including many of the figures in power today in Lebanon--have rivers of blood on their hand, regardless of religion.

Posted by: RoobartSbunsar at December 5, 2007 1:32 PM

Roobart,

I've never said or believed that "that Christians were utterly incapable of ever committing an atrocity of any kind simply because they are Christians." Any human being is capable of depraved activity. That's why Christianity teaches that we are all sinners.

However, clearly the Battle at Sabra and Shatila has been twisted into a Muslim and Leftist showcase that doesn't match the facts. Did any single European or American leftist group so much as raise a peep about the undisputed atrocity at Damour? Of course not! As for women killed, there were many female terrorists. Ever heard of Leila Khalid? As for children, Muslims are well known to use children as human shields, as Hezbollah did last year.

However, the only neutral eye-witnesses on the ground right after the battle were representatives of the International Red Cross who counted 328 bodies that were "overwhelmingly adult men, very few women and no children" but also stating that "this figure, however, does not include all the bodies but the overwhelming majority of those killed." The final count, according to the Kahan Commision, was 460 dead including the Lebanese Forces soldiers killed in the battle and confirming that "Only 35 women and children were among the dead." So yes so there some children killed in the crossfire but it is clear that they were not targeted by the Falange.

Posted by: Provoslavni at December 5, 2007 2:48 PM

Provoslavni -- thanks for your info and your comments. Perhaps I have extrapolated out too far in assuming that the consistent and strong anti-Jewish anti-Israel message I heard from Arab Christians when I was younger can be projected onto Arab Christians in the ME -- but I regularly experienced rabid hatred of Jews from those Arabs not among just a few -- but from ALL of them whenever the topic of Israel, terrorism, or "Palestinian" grievances came up. There wasn't an Arab among them who ever spoke up or mentioned Christian victimization at the hands of Muslims, and I also never heard one of those Christian Arabs criticize another Muslim Arab or Islam -- not once.

I have compared mindset this to the near non-stop Arab (Muslim) anti-Jewish anti-Western anti-Christian anti-infidel rhetoric which spews constantly forth from the ME -- and this is why I draw the conclusion that Arabs (both the Muslim and Christian variety) seem to possess a congenital hatred for Jews and the state of Israel.

If Arab Christians are finally awakening to the mistakes they've made by pitting themselves against Israel and flakking for the "Palestinian" Islamic cause, then well and good. I still say it's difficult for me to muster much sympathy for them, given my early experiences. At the very least, if what you say is true, and many of the Arab Christian grievances are due to Israeli disenfrachisement, then it must be observed that those Christian Arabs have also perpetuated the lopsided propaganda of the Islamic Jihad side, and done much to muddy the waters for many in America. As I said -- the bile heaped on Jews by these Arabs (and to be fair, similar though less uncouth fury expressed by my Jewish friends against Arabs) allowed me to formulate the inaccurate notion that Islam had nothing to do with any of the strife. It was never mentioned, even by the Jews I knew, and this perpetuated many false ideas that have now solidified into realities -- e.g. existence of "Palestine", marxist interpretations on the "conflict" devoid of any mention of Islamic conquest, or the Arab cultural supremacist underpinnings of same, etc.

Posted by: jsla at December 5, 2007 4:43 PM

I also should mention that many of the Christian Arab families in Detroit have been there for nearly a century -- I don't know their full history or the reasons they inhabit that city in such numbers -- but this also calls into question the accuracy that these Arabs were simply lashing out for losses due to the establishment of Israel. The hatred they espoused came from someplace deeper and more ancient it would seem. Zogby also brags that his family has been in America for nearly 100 years -- yet he too has signed onto the full panoply of Arab as victim, Islam is peace, Israel is Satan bandwagon.

Posted by: jsla at December 5, 2007 4:48 PM

And if that's not enough, I also should mention that when I was young, I don't recall a single mosque in Detroit -- although I'm sure there were some. It's interesting to note that the tribal affinities between Arabs despite Christian/Muslim differences have proven strong enough that Detroit is now perhaps the largest single population center for Arab Muslims in America. Whereas Christian Arabs formed the vast majority of Arab ethnicity in America a mere 30 years ago, I suspect that the Muslim variety is catching up rapidly. So in addition to having fealties inimical to America or her interests, the Christian Arabs seem to be some kind of tribal magnet inviting their far more vicious Islamic brethren into the country and making them feel at home. We don't hear about sectarian strife between Arab factions in Detroit -- and to my knowledge, little of the sort has been documented -- yet I believe (though I have not been there in some time) that both the Arab Christians and the Arab Muslims in Detroit still speak with nearly one voice when it comes to Jews and Israel -- and the hymnal they sing from is called "hatred".

Posted by: jsla at December 5, 2007 4:53 PM

Just backing up Provoslavni -

Jacques Ellul discusses the Sabra and Shatila affair, in his book 'Un Chretien Pour Israel' (if you read French, move heaven and earth to find it!) which contains an exhaustive analysis, in chapter 2, part 3, of the French media coverage of the first Lebanon War.

His judgement of what happened is similar to that of Provoslavni - and he was a veteran analyst of propaganda. He, too, mentions the massacres of Lebanese Maronite Christians, at Damour and elsewhere, by the PLO forces and by other Muslims.

To give the flavour of Ellul's work, I will post assorted excerpts - apologies for my awkward translation of the French. Apologies for the length, but this is worth reading, and I can't put it in a link, because there is nothing of the book online.

Ellul begins by remarking: "It is obvious that the propaganda was unleashed with an incredible violence at the time of that ‘war in Lebanon’. For the first time Israel was really [the] aggressor.

"But the thing that is essentially characteristic, and which caught my eye: when the Palestinians invaded Lebanon, having installed themselves in force after Black September, when they made Beirut “their capital” (declaration by Yasser Arafat), no-one said anything.

"It was totally normal (even when the Palestinians proceeded to some massacres in September 1975 at Beit Mellahi, massacres much larger than those of Sabra and Chatila!); likewise when Syria invaded Lebanon and occupied the entire north of the country (a fifth of its territory) under the pretext of being a force of intervention to prevent battles between Christians and Muslims, although the Syrians openly took the part of the Druze and the Muslims, and in the course of the battles of Tall el Zaatar (May 1976) there were perhaps 60 000 victims (Palestinians and Lebanese). Then, in October 1978 and in April 1981, the Syrians started fighting with the Lebanese Front and proceeded to new massacres, some in Beirut itself.

"But, against all this [there was] no indignation, no protest. Everything begins on the 6th June 1982. So much so that, en masse, the French were convinced that the ‘Lebanon War’ had begun with the “Israeli invasion”. It was necessary, ceaselessly, to explain that this war had begun in 1975, seven years before the Israeli intervention."

(On media imagery): "..for the massacres of Sabra and Chatila, exactly the same image went past four times: two slain children on the left, in the foreground, and two bodies of women on the right, while the background was unclear. Every time it was supposed to prove that at Sabra and Chatila people had mostly killed women and children."

"... the massacre of Sabra and Chatila. In the heat of anger and emotion, people gave between 1000 and 1500 victimes, mostly civilians. Now that people have been able to make a count as close as possible, we arrive at a maximum of 300 dead, of which 36 were women and 15 children (see why it was always the same photo of women and children that was shown?)."

"When I say that it was the media who 'made' Sabra and Chatila, it is because they talked about it every day for a month (what happened, the search for the people responsible, the commission of inquiry, etc).

"It was the grave, compassionate, concentrated manner in which our national lady newsreader evoked every evening, in an emotional voice, the two magic words.

"And here, more than ever, the double standard applied: there had been the massacre in Damour, where 10 000 victims (actual number) were executed by the PLO, practically an entire small town wiped off the map. But no-one talked about it. So, who knows about Damour?

"At the very same time as Sabra and Chatila, there was a massacre of a population of at least 1000 persons (actual number) by Assad in Syria, because they were associated with a group strongly opposed to his policies. There again the media barely talked about it."

I thank God that I read French, because had I not read Ellul's book, when and where I did (after reading practically everything else of his, including his masterly anatomy of 'Propaganda'), I too might have been 'sucked in' by the whole 'Poor Palestinians' lie as put out by the Muslim Arabs, and now swallowed wholesale even by the Evangelicals. Ellul immunised me very effectively.

To some extent I agree with Provoslavni: the Jews of Israel - understandably, not comprehending Dhimmitude at all - failed to 'divide the camp' back when they could have done so, by an all-out effort to get the Arab/ised Christians on side (difficult, but not impossible) whilst soundly drubbing the Arab/ised Muslims.

Given the option of full civil and human rights in a Jewish-majority state, as opposed to the misery and insecurity of actual or de facto dhimmitude under Muslim despotism, surely any Christian with any sense would have chosen the former.

Posted by: dumbledoresarmy at December 5, 2007 5:04 PM

However, I think jsla is also onto something.

There IS an ugly and very ancient strain of 'Christian' religious anti-semitism within the eastern orthodox tradition. It is home-grown, not imported. It is time that it was honestly faced up to, and repented of. Because, frankly, it is a demon, and needs to be cast out. Its presence made it very easy for the Muslims to 'divide and conquer' the dhimmi populations; Christians 'displaced' their hatred for their Muslim abusers, onto their Jewish fellow-dhimmis. Indeed both Jews and Christians were constantly seduced into siding with their real enemy (the Muslims) against their perceived enemy (the Jew, the Christian).

Anti-semitism within Orthodoxy will not be easy to remove. John Chrysostom, for example, one of the 'Fathers' of the Orthodox communion, is notorious for a sequence of inflammatory anti-Jewish sermons that rival in virulence some of the ugliest and most embarrassing effusions of Martin Luther. Instead of making excuses, it's time the church openly acknowledged that even Fathers of the Church can get things REALLY, REALLY WRONG, sometimes. I admire Luther for translating the bible into German; but I DON'T admire him for his anti-Jewish sermons and would NEVER treat those particular texts as authoritative.

The Byzantine era, 4C-6C, just prior to the Muslim Arab invasion, saw some horrific pogroms by Byzantine Christians against Jews in the land of Israel, and some ugly anti-Jewish laws.

Some of the nastier legislation formulated by 'Christian' Byzantium to repress Jews, came right back to bite them when Muslim jurists - always only too happy to adopt, and perpetuate, negative elements of a conquered culture - picked up elements of that legislation and ran with it, applying it not only to Jews but...to Christians.

Right now, Islam is hard at work trying to set Jews and Christians against one another. It specialises in 'dividing the camp' - not only pushing continually upon tensions between Jews and Christians, but seeking to exploit and exacerbate the divisions that exist among Jews, or among Christians. (Let alone the rest of the Infidel camp, which I am not forgetting).

We non-Muslims need to take a long, hard, careful look at the divisions that exist amongst us, and work out how to prevent them from being used by Islam as they have been, repeatedly, used in the past - to weaken us and con us into betraying one another to the Muslim invaders and enslavers.

Posted by: dumbledoresarmy at December 5, 2007 5:29 PM

As for the Hama "massacre" it is true that Assad suppressed the Ikhwan uprising bloodily, killing over twenty thousand people. However, if the Muslim Brotherhood had come to power, just imagine the massacres they would have perpetrated on the Alawites, Christians, and secularists. So while I don't defend Assad, he was certainly better than the alternative.

If this isn't a defense of Assad, it still isn't the kind of thing one can prudently say after sneeringly asking "are there any Muslim murderers that you are not apologists for?" Even if doesn't technically qualify you as an actual apologist for Assad, it certainly brings you closer to being one than anything I've ever said brings me to being an apologist for him or for any other murderer, Muslim, Christian, Jewish, Sikh, or Zoroastrian.

Posted by: Seamus at December 5, 2007 6:09 PM

"There IS an ugly and very ancient strain of 'Christian' religious anti-semitism within the eastern orthodox tradition. It is home-grown, not imported."

Hence the horrific anti-semitism one sees in Russia.

Posted by: RoobartSbunsar at December 5, 2007 6:43 PM

Seamus,

It is no more a defense of Assad than recognizing the heroism of the Soviet Army against Hitler is a defense of Stalin. Everything isn't in simple black and white.

Posted by: Provoslavni at December 5, 2007 11:27 PM

Dumbledoresarmy,

Thanks for the Ellul reference. I wasn't aware of it but unfortunately my French is horrible.

As for the critique of my religion: I am Eastern Orthodox but my family is mostly Jewish. Despite anti-Semitism which unfortunately is a very real phenomenon, intermarriage between Jews and Orthodox Christians is quite common, especially in Russia and Eastern Europe.

Recently, I was at the funeral of a Ukrainian teenager that was tragically killed in a car wreck. It was conducted jointly by a Rabbi and a priest. There has been so much mixing that if you ask a Russian if she is Yevrey or Pravoslavni, she will often reply "Yes". Even in Israel it is not uncommon to find Russians who came as Jews under the Law of Return lighting candles in Orthodox churches.

However, as for Saint John Chrysostom's purported anti-semitism, one must look at the background of these particular sermons. Christian Constantinople had numerous synagogues and they were often packed with Greek Christians who would go to Temple on Saturday and to Church on Sunday. Several Rabbis, who were friends with Saint John, came to him and complained that these Greeks were threatening the integrity of Judaism. Saint John agreed with them that it threatened the integrity of both faiths.

For this reason he preached a series of sermons condemning these Judaizing Christians. Not being aware of this background, it sounds as if he was making anti-Semitic attacks but he was actually condemning Greeks for Judaizing and not so much the Jews themselves, despite his harsh polemics. At the time Judaizing Christians were equally condemned by the Church as heretics and by the Rabbis as minim.

Nevertheless, there is indeed much that we should all be ashamed of in our history. Just as there are many sad examples of modern Christian dhimmis helping Muslims against Jews, in the past there were many sad examples of Jewish dhimmis helping the Muslims against the Christians, in Spain, the Ottoman Empire, and many other places. Then came retribution after retribution.

It is now time we recognize that Islam threatens Jews and Christians equally and end this pattern of recrimination against each other for the crimes of our ancestors. Christian and Jew must support each other if we are to survive, especially in the Middle East. Divide and conquer has served the Muslims well and we should end it now!

Posted by: Provoslavni at December 5, 2007 11:41 PM

It is no more a defense of Assad than recognizing the heroism of the Soviet Army against Hitler is a defense of Stalin.

I'm glad to hear that you're not a defender of Assad. Now stop suggesting that I'm a defender of (or "apologist for") him or any other Muslim murderer.

Posted by: Seamus at December 8, 2007 6:07 PM

Seamus, I admit I was harsh on you and apologize for any offense. I actually enjoy our exchanges since, even where we disagree, you are clearly well-educated on this subject. I was probably harsh because it's disconcerting to be accused of being too pro-Israel and being pro-Assad at the same time.

I freely admit that I am radically pro-Christian especially when it comes to Palestine. On this site I have often criticized Israel's discrimination against Christians and condemned the destruction of Christian villages such as Ikrit and Birim. I have also repeatedly condemned Israel's failure to distinguish the indigenous Christians from the Muslim Arabs, especially, since this is what drove many Christians into the arms of the PLO in the first place.

However, it is clear that Israel is the only hope for their survival and that both the local Christians and Israeli Jews need each other now more than ever. That's the bottom line and someone has to keep saying it.

Posted by: Provoslavni at December 8, 2007 9:21 PM