"Because this isn't Lahore in Pakistan. This is Dagenham in London! This is Britain!"

Location doesn't matter. It's Islam.

Posted by: darcy at December 9, 2007 9:09 AM

"Location doesn't matter. It's Islam".

So true.

I'd like to know where are the deportation laws!?

Where are the feminist groups!?

No matter if it's the US, Britain, Canada or elsewhere, the government has run scared; human rights advocacy groups have run scared; feminists have run scared. Cowards and useful idiots.

Deport the whole lot of them, father, mother, brother, uncles, and any other associated vermin.

Posted by: SickofitALL at December 9, 2007 9:16 AM

9/11 brought Islam into our lives.

What is going to take it out? It's gotta go. End of Story.

Posted by: darcy at December 9, 2007 9:29 AM

Are these the actions of members of a religion or are they the actions of cult members?

Posted by: tanstaafl at December 9, 2007 9:33 AM

This just shows how much moslems hate the rest of us.

I'm bored of saying I hate Nazism and getting 100% support

or saying I hate communism and getting 70% support and 30% trying to rescue something good from it without ever citing their nice theory having worked in practice....

No one is so stupid to think I'm saying I hate citizens from the communist countries though...

but when I say I hate Islam I get 40% support (and rising fast) but the 60% of dodos think I'm saying I hate moslems yet nearly 100% of those don't actually have moslem friends like I do.....

It's getting depressing that molems can hate others, especially Jews and Christians and their own children (some have been killed down road from me) and that is OK.

But to hate Islam is not allowable.

I don't think normal Nazi's or Communists killed their own children.....

Anyway by throwing their own daughter out because they hate her as much as those whom they share the country with says something we should listen to.

We don't hate them but they loathe us because their religion tells them to.

Posted by: exposesithlords at December 9, 2007 9:37 AM

"Are these the actions of members of a religion or are they the actions of cult members?"

Islam = Death Cult

The Koran = 7th century murderous ramblings uttered by someone with syphilis induced mental illness.

Posted by: SickofitALL at December 9, 2007 9:51 AM

Islam.. Religion or Cult? You decide.

The group displays excessively zealous and unquestioning commitment to its leader and (whether he is alive or dead) regards his belief system, ideology, and practices as the Truth, as law.

‪ Questioning, doubt, and dissent are discouraged or even punished.

‪ Mind-altering practices (such as meditation, chanting, speaking in tongues, denunciation sessions, and debilitating work routines) are used in excess and serve to suppress doubts about the group and its leader(s).

‪ The leadership dictates, sometimes in great detail, how members should think, act, and feel (for example, members must get permission to date, change jobs, marry—or leaders prescribe what types of clothes to wear, where to live, whether or not to have children, how to discipline children, and so forth).

‪ The group is elitist, claiming a special, exalted status for itself, its leader(s) and members (for example, the leader is considered the Messiah, a special being, an avatar—or the group and/or the leader is on a special mission to save humanity).

‪ The group has a polarized us-versus-them mentality, which may cause conflict with the wider society.

‪ The leader is not accountable to any authorities (unlike, for example, teachers, military commanders or ministers, priests, monks, and rabbis of mainstream religious denominations).

‪ The group teaches or implies that its supposedly exalted ends justify whatever means it deems necessary. This may result in members' participating in behaviors or activities they would have considered reprehensible or unethical before joining the group (for example, lying to family or friends, or collecting money for bogus charities).

‪ The leadership induces feelings of shame and/or guilt iin order to influence and/or control members. Often, this is done through peer pressure and subtle forms of persuasion.

‪ Subservience to the leader or group requires members to cut ties with family and friends, and radically alter the personal goals and activities they had before joining the group.

‪ The group is preoccupied with bringing in new members.

‪ The group is preoccupied with making money.

‪ Members are expected to devote inordinate amounts of time to the group and group-related activities.

‪ Members are encouraged or required to live and/or socialize only with other group members.

‪ The most loyal members (the “true believers”) feel there can be no life outside the context of the group. They believe there is no other way to be, and often fear reprisals to themselves or others if they leave (or even consider leaving) the group.

This checklist will be published in the new book, Take Back Your Life: Recovering from Cults and Abusive Relationships by Janja Lalich and Madeleine Tobias (Berkeley: Bay Tree Publishing, 2006). It was adapted from a checklist originally developed by Michael Langone.

Posted by: Laughs_at_Silly_Jihadis at December 9, 2007 10:54 AM

is this person realistic, or hawking a one-man show?

http://www.andyross.net/moez_masoud.htm

Posted by: StillBreathing at December 9, 2007 10:59 AM

"clueless"

yes that's a good word to describe the british authorities and the majority of britons.

"Where are the feminist groups!?"

they are out there. http://feminist.org/
but sadly their activism doesn't cover islam.

Posted by: leonthepigfarmer at December 9, 2007 11:11 AM

"In 2004, Prince Charles called a meeting of leading Muslims to discuss the issue," adds Dr Sookhdeo. "I was there. All the Muslim leaders at that meeting agreed that the penalty in sharia is death. The hope was that they would issue a public declaration repudiating that doctrine, but not one of them did."

Prince Charles obviously doesn't have much influence over his brothers in islam.

Posted by: ImNoDhimmi at December 9, 2007 11:37 AM

9/11 brought Islam into our lives.

What is going to take it out? It's gotta go. End of Story

No, Darcy, Islam brought 9/11 into our lives. 9/11 made us just a little more knowelegeable of the religion of hate.

Posted by: DownWithIslam at December 9, 2007 11:53 AM

Assalamau Laikum all,

Clearly a sad case. That the daughter should let her parents, her culture, her prayers, her deen ....is clearly down to her parents not taking enough care of her daughter's education needs.

The second problem now ofcourse is that the parents do not know how to deal with the problem that has risen....how can you?....such an emotional issue needs professional help.

However who do you turn to? To talk to an imam or friends/family widens the circle of peoples who know you ....and start to condemn the daughter & the parents.

To talk to the police ....well let's not waste police time.

To talk to a kaffur....well no need to go there!

So now you are starting to see the problem....the parents need expert objective advice , free of emotion....but no one is available to talk to.

They need to get back to basics , get to know their daughter again and gently over time get her back into the fold....quoting appropriate suras...and if necessary get her to a madereaa for a week or so....and then let the daughter decide.

My gut feeing however is that the daughter has someone on the side...possibly a kaffur boyfriend who has corrupted her....looks like this part of the story is not out yet....the likelyhood is that he is the bastard to blame.

Posted by: Naseem at December 9, 2007 12:10 PM

Lahore in Pakistan. This is Dagenham in London! This is Britain!"
not to the cult of islam

Posted by: grizlybear at December 9, 2007 12:14 PM

It took the 'Telegraph' to publish an article like this...you'd NEVER read it in the 'Guradian' or the 'Independent'...(or the NYTimes for that matter).

The issue of apostasy is both Islam's greatest strength and its greatest weakness.

The coercive power of threatened execution compels so many Muslims who would otherwise leave to remain in the faith...but it makes a mockery of "no compulsion in religion," exposes Islam for the religious fascism that it is, and it HAS to be upsetting to the sensibilities of Liberal Muslims and Western apologists for Islam who are trying so desperately to reconcile their apologia with the ugly realities of the faith.

We have to keep hitting home this particular issue in establishing Islam's totalitarian bona fides. This article is a prime candidate for sending to friends and family. Only the most self-deluded apologist won't be thoroughly repulsed...

"They put their loyalty to Islam above any love for me"

Posted by: Cornelius at December 9, 2007 12:17 PM

Thanks, Naseem; I've been trying to lose weight, and after reading your comment I've suddenly lost my appetite.

Posted by: DaninVan at December 9, 2007 12:18 PM

Naseem,

What a despicable creature you are...blaming the parenting for the woman's apostasy...and then girl attributing unsavory reasons for her defection from. In your warped and twisted mind, it HAS to be about the pernicious influence of a boyfriend...it COULDN'T be that Sofia made this decision based on the dictates of her own adult conscience.

All your weasel-words notwithstanding, you are just as intolerant, just as narrow-minded, just as monstrous as your fanatical co-religionists.

Posted by: Cornelius at December 9, 2007 12:23 PM

Naseem, let's rephrase your post --

“My gut feeing however is that the daughter has someone on the side...possibly a kaffur boyfriend who has enlightened her....looks like this part of the story is not out yet....the likelihood is that he is the Hero to praise.”

Farside

Posted by: farside at December 9, 2007 12:30 PM

Robert--

Take a look at the remarks of Naseem above. Quite sure she isn't what she purports to be, a female Ahmadi semi-demi-hemi (according to the government of Pakistan and almost all non-Ahmadi Muslims) Muslim, who thinks of herself, or wishes to be regarded as, a full-fledged Muslm waiting for Western Infidels, with all their goodness and wisdom and obvious superiority, to convert to Islam in order to bring about that "revolution by Wuslims" that, she believes, will rescue Islam from the violence and cruelty of the non-Western Muslims, and rescue people like Naseem herself.

Notice, please, what may be called her "racism." racism. She believes that what explains the monstrous behavior of Muslims toward non-Muslims (and that includes the treatment, oftne, of "Ahmadis" as insufficiently orthodox Muslims and therefore to be takfirized upon a table, or rather the Tables of the Implacable Muslim Law) is that they are not nice, Western, white, European or American people. No, they have, on the whole, brown skins. And she thinks that it is those nice, white, Western, European or American people who, when they accept Islam, as what she calls "Wuslims," will somehow transform its practice. But the practice comes out of the doctrine, and the doctrine comes from the texts, and the texts are immutable, and the Gates of Ijtihad swung shut with a thud more than a millennium ago.

So she keeps on blaming those brown skins, and hopes to be rescued by white-skinned Wuslims. She is the most obvious racist, I suspect, ever to appear at this site. Not surprising. There is Islamic supremacism. Within that, there is Arab supremacism. Naseem, whoever she may be (and I take her at face value), is used to the idea. The idea of such supremacism doesn't faze her. She just has other candidates. And she still can't face or analyze the doctrines of Islam that explain, not the skin color of those who make up most of the world's Islam, that prompt and explain the very attitudes and behavior she deplores -- and as an Ahmadi living in Pakistan, fears.

How difficult it is, how almost impossible, for all but the very best and most advanced people born into Islam to allow themselves to stand back, and see the Belief System of Islam for what it is, and for what it has done, for 1350 years, to reduce the mental freedoms, and to limit the artistic and intellectual potential, of so many hundreds of millions of people. And yet through an organized system of brainwashing and societal reinforcement, and then the physical enforcement by bully-boys ready to threaten and to kill, keeps on imprisoning many millions who might wish to leave that prison, if only they knew of the existence of other possibilities, if only they realized that "identity" is something that they are free to choose and that being born into Islam need not be a permanent condition, that they are free to examine, to think, to choose -- or should be.

Naseem is real, and to be pitied. And taken as an instructive example, for she teaches us things, though not the things she thinks she is teaching.

Posted by: Hugh at December 9, 2007 12:34 PM

Koran 2:256

There is no compulsion in religion. The right direction is henceforth distinct from error. And he who rejecteth false deities and believeth in Allah hath grasped a firm handhold which will never break. Allah is Hearer, Knower.
( Al-Baqara, Chapter #2, Verse #256)

Naseem: "My gut feeing however is that the daughter has someone on the side...possibly a kaffur boyfriend who has corrupted her....looks like this part of the story is not out yet....the likelyhood is that he is the bastard to blame."

That that old 'blame game' Muslims love to practice in their religion (of peace), so nail the bastard, right? ... Naseem, we understand you better than you understand yourself, and thus you are to be pitied. Come over to our side of civilization and reason, and liberate yourself from your religion (of peace).

Posted by: Battle_of_Tours at December 9, 2007 12:59 PM

Perhaps ken livingstone and george galloway would like to comment?

Posted by: Celsius at December 9, 2007 1:14 PM

How a Muslim should treat his non-Muslim relatives is an important question in Islam. Historically Islam, and Muslims who conquered non-Muslim lands, and peoples, with military force, then at once, and from then on, as people tried to escape from what turned out to be (they had initially misunderstood what the supposed kindness of their conquerors would be) not a pleasant but a most difficult, onerous, and at times intolerable existence -- that of being a dhimmi, a condition that involved permanent humiliation, degradation, expense, and physical insecurity.

Younger people, obviously, would be the ones who would convert or "revert" most often, while those set in their ways would probably cling to their beliefs, faiths, rituals. So what early Islam had to deal with was not the case of Muslim parents dealing with a non-Muslim child, but the reverse: the new convert ("revert"), in the lands conquered by Islam by military force. Today, of course, that kind of military conquest is not possible, except at the edges of Islam, or where Infidel lands can be persuaded to give in, or even take the Muslim side (as in the Balkans, where the West seems determined to rip part of Serbia where Muslims are the majority, right out of Serbian control, as if head-counting were the final authority, an idea that will come back to haunt France, Great Britain, and other countries as Muslim populations are permitted to rise, inexorably, and where, in this city or in that region, the Muslim writ will then inevitably run).

In the West today, the instruments of Jihad are the Money Weapon (whcih comes from donors and suppliers among the Arab oil states), the allowing the building of mosques, madrasas, the use of Western hirelings (journalists, lawyers, businessmen, academics, and others) to protect not only the "image" of Saudi Arabia but also of Islam, and to use that money to intimidate or silence critics of Islam -- or at least to everywhere attempt to, Da'wa, and demographic conquest, the latter of which has been written about extensively by Muslims, though whenever an Infidel quotes such things, it is he who is attacked (see the vicious misreporting on Mark Steyn, whose quoting of Mullah Krekar's phrase about Musliims in Europe "breeding like mosquitoes" was mistakenly attributed to Steyn himself, by someone quick with the idiotic charges of "racism" that we have all grown so used to, and that look more ridiculous and desperate every day.

The campign in the West for Da'wa is accompanied by efforts, amazingly aggressive and relentless, in every respect, by Muslim groups and communities, using every instrument of dissemination that the Infidels have invented and provide, to present themselves simultaneously as:

1) just like us, and to be accepted as perfectly fine (Americans, British, French, etc.)

2) not like us, for purer and better than we are, and therefore deserving of having their demands to apply, as much as they can, the Shari'a, and, as much as they can, to have changes made in the legal and political institutions to accomodate Muslim demands, Muslim needs. These could be for hijabs in French schools, to make a political issue. Or, if in a system that is not so wedded to removing "religious" symbols, as the American school system, so that a fight cannot be had over the hijab, then it might be other things: the demand for release from classes, or work, for five-times-a-day prayer, and the providing of prayer rooms on site. Or it could be zoning changes to allow mosques, or looming minarets that are symbols of Muslim power. Or a demand that municipal pools have Muslim-women-only days. It starts with that kind of thing, but it has essentially no end: every single obstacle, as Muslims define them, to the practice of Islam, and to the spread of Islam, and then to the ultimate dominance of Islam (that must come: not merely the existence, but the future dominance)

Every kind of technological advance made possible by Infidels is exploited: radio, television, the Internet. Every bit of pulbiicity that will further the cause of Islam, that will confuse or distract the Infidels, or make them, or some of them, think that Muslims are being "victimized," by likening them to whatever real historical victims exist. So the persecution and mass-murder of European Jewry is invoked by Muslims, often the same Muslims completely at ease with their own brand of home-grown, Islam-prompted antisemitism (with a different prompting than that to be found historically in Western Christendom), and their own history of mistreatment, over 1350 years, of Jews as of other non-Muslims.

Or, in this country, as happened the other day with a planted Muslim questioner with his propagandistic questioning of John Edwards, "Martin" (i.e., Martin Luther King) and the Civil Rights movement will be invoked by Muslism who, in fact, have not the slightest interest in, or natural sympathy for, blacks andw who, in their own countries, routinely make remarks, demonstrate attitudes, that flabbergast visiting Americans there, for example, to take a course on Arabic.

Thus in this country we are forced to endure the spectacle of Muslim Arabs, who started and conducted for centuries before and after all others, the slave trade in black Africa, who even today enslave blacks in Mauritania and in the Sudan, and if we are to believe such keen observers as Ayaan Hirsi Ali -- in Saudi Arabia beyond the prying eyes of any Infidels (who hardly can be said, over the past century, and especially in the last few decades, to have done much prying, or much reporting, on what really goes on in Saudi Arabia, the country that has been far more successful than any Communist regime at shutting out or shutting off inquiries or investigations by reporters).

Then there is the Muslim propaganda of the "aren't Muslims just like us" variety. These "Muslims-are-just-like-us" heartwarming articles are always about the same two or three things: the observance of Ramadan and then the Iftar dinner, and then Muslims "integrating" into American society, trying so hard, so very very hard if only we would let them (what utter nonsense), as in that story in The Times a week ago about "Muslim girl scouts" in America (all 1,500 of them, which given the Muslim population is very few) who are, The Times journalist made certain we would be lead to believe, are emblematic of the touching Muslim desire to be just like us, when in fact the story ignores entirely not the Girl Scout uniforms, or the Girl Scout cookies, but what those little girls are taught to believe, taught to believe as Muslims, the attitudes and tenets of Islam that arise naturally from the texts, Qur'an and Hadith and Sira).

So nowadays, a new situation has developed. Along with all the psychically and econonically marginal people who are those deemed most vulnerable to appeals of those carrying out Da'wa, there are, among the Muslims, those who have somehow managed, through intellectual effort and moral revulsion at Islam, to fight their way through to leaving Islam and, in many of those cases, for Christianity. It happens every rarely, requires enormous courage, to do so, of course, in Dar al-Islam. And it happened in this case, with this girl, in Egypt.

But while Islam is hardly silent on how a Muslim child should treat, or rather how he should deal with, his non-Muslim parents (read about it, merely by googling a bit), keeping them at bay, making sure they are not able to re-convert him back to his original faith), a way not different from the way that the Nazis and the Communists (Pavel Morozov!) taught little Hitler Youths, and Oktobryata, to treat their parents, as people to be watched, people who, of course, might have to be reported to the authorities, and sacrificed For The Good Of The Cause. And of course the same would go for any other relatives, and parents would be expected, as well, to turn in their children.

Islam, like other ruthless totalitarian belief-systems, demands of its adherents that they be willing to sacrifice everything if need be, for the Good of Islam. And that includes the willingness to overcome what, we have been led to believe, are the natural ties that bind children and parents with ties of affection and loyalty and love. The ties may not always bind in the Infidel world, but no other faith teaches its adherents to think or behave toward relatives as Islam does.

We see the "Palestinian" mother (or many such mothers) who is taped for everyone to see, expressing her delight that one of her children has blown himself, or herself, up, "killing Jews," and she tells the camera how delighted and proud she is, and she has another six or seven or ten at home, whom she has raised up to do the same. And we read of, though seldom see, the relatives who gather round to cause the death, by lapidation, of a girl convicted under Shari'a law of adultery, and it is the father who casts the first stone. All because Allah wills it, Islam demands it. Humans are merely the slaves of Allah, and must do his bidding, at every step. It is an incredible system of brainwashing, and then of rigorous reinforcement, and enforcement, at every level of society, in every way. Who can get out? Who can be mentally free or, still more amazing, once that mental freedom from such enslavement is achieved (and the same Islam that teaches disloyalty to parents and other relatives, and ignoring of natural tendenceis of affection where the cause of Islam demands otherwise, also tugs --or exploits, the filial piety that keeps someone declaring himself a Muslim, or defending the father who, in Iran, casts the first stone in the series that will cause the death, by lapidation, of his own daughter.

In the early conquering days of Islam, it was the younger non-Muslims who would convert to Islam. And it was therefore important to spell out exactly how they should treat with, deal with, “handle” their disapproving parents and relatives. It was not foreseen, and little attention was paid to, the possibility that a child of Muslims might dare to leave Islam. Such a case, however, was dealt with under the general rule that applies to all Muslims, a rule that has been ratified time and again by Muslim clerics, including those who met with Prince Charles a year or so ago (see the testimony of Patrick Sookhdeo).

That is the case here. She has disgraced, dishonored her parents. She deserves to be attacked, beaten, possibly killed. And her relatives, her own parents, will be happy not merely to participate, but to lead the frenzied mob. It is the only way that they can redeem themselves in the eyes of fellow Believers and Allah. Their station here below is at stake, as is their possibility for that Muslim Paradise, the languor and lilies of that la-illah au-dela.

Punch and kick her boys. Stab her if you feel like it. Here, let everyone join in. It will be like “Murder on the Orient Express” where everyone shares in committing the murder. Except that was a mere fiction to be solved by moustachioed Hercule Poirot. This is fact, and this happens all over the world, in Dar al-Islam, and now, right smack in Dar al-Harb, in England, land of hope and glory.

Yes, they can be screaming, and trying to beat down the door to kill such a young girl, right smack in the middle of old Londinium, or any other large city or town, in a flat just round the corner from the church, the caff, the fish-and-chips, the pub, the place where you can get bangers-and-mash, the one that has a faded picture of Elizabeth at her coronation tacked to the wall, and perhaps, upstairs (now we are renewing our poetic license with a vengeance, the sound of Gracie Fields being listened to by a pensioner in the flat upstair (Her Grace, and Our Gracie, together again at last). Right there: the primitive minds and mores of people with minds on Islam. How does Her Majesty’s Government intend to deal with this? By continuing to pretend that Islam does not possess the immutable texts it does possess? By continuing to pretend that they are not taken seriously, and that those who do not take them seriously, but continue to call themselves Muslims, mean it, and mean it for all time, with no possibility of re-acquiring at any point, they or their burgeoning progeny, that old-time religion that means menace and more for Infidels?

Forget it all. Play that record one more time, will you? Louder, so that we can remember only the past, and drown out the present, and never ever think about our future, or that of any conceivable prosperity:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4l-7-zxT528

Again, but turn up the sound so everyone in the house can hear it.

Now start thinking. Start with Shakespeare. Go from there.

Posted by: Hugh at December 9, 2007 1:53 PM

The parents are devastated that their daughter would negate all of their years of investment in her. Demographic jihad doesn't work too well when those young Muslims convert out of Islam. In fact, it is a huge cost incurred on the Muslims engaged in demographic jihad, because these Muslims invest so much in their children for the Cause of Allah, only to find that their efforts have been in vain...more than that, the Infidels benefit. This is why we, throughout all the non-Muslim countries that have growing Muslim populations, need to introduce tough legislation to protect freedom of conscience and freedom of expression. Other religions can survive this, but Islam probably cannot, except in a very diluted apolitical form.

""Mum, Dad - you're saying you should kill me… but I'm your daughter! Don't you realise that??""

As we've seen here before, such as in the Montreal case of Muslim brother killing apostate brother, some Muslims are willing to kill their own family members to fulfill the larger goals of Islam.

Ishaq, p. 369
“The apostle said, 'Kill any Jew who falls under your power.' Thereupon Muhayyisa b. Mas'ud leapt upon Ibn Sunayna, a Jewish merchant with whom they had social and business relations, and killed him. Huwayyisa was not a Muslim at the time though he was the elder brother. When Muhayyisa killed him Huwayyisa began to beat him saying, 'You enemy of God, did you kill him when much fat on your belly comes from his wealth?' Muhayyisa answered, 'Had the one who ordered me to kill him ordered me to kill you I would have cut your head off.' He said that this was the beginning of Huwayyisa's acceptance of Islam. The other replied, 'By God, if Muhammad had ordered you to kill me you would have killed me?' He said, 'Yes, by God, had he ordered me to cut off your head I would have done so.' He exclaimed, 'By God, a religion that can bring you to this is marvellous!' and he became a Muslim.”

Quran, 4:135. “O ye who believe! Be ye staunch in justice, witnesses for Allah, even though it be against yourselves or (your) parents or (your) kindred, whether (the case be of) a rich man or a poor man, for Allah is nearer unto both (them ye are). So follow not passion lest ye lapse (from truth) and if ye lapse or fall away, then lo! Allah is ever Informed of what ye do.”

The Telegraph article contains some seemingly contradictory statements.

"Most leading Muslims in Britain are unequivocal in their denunciation of British Muslim parents who threaten to kill their children for leaving Islam.
"Ibrahim Mogra, of the Muslim Council of Britain (MCB), says that it is "absolutely disgraceful behaviour… In Britain, no Muslim has the right to harm one hair of someone who decides to leave Islam."
"[...]Inayat Bunglawala, also a spokesman for the MCB, insists that such behaviour in Britain is "awful and quite wrong. The police should crack down on it.""

Questions: Which "leading Muslims" are unequivocal in the denunciation of such threats? Not the two that the article cites by name above...both of them leave the door open for the apostasy death penalty under an Islamic state. This is a standard type of response which Muslim spokesmen give, i.e., claiming that they do not accept some or other Islamic law within the present non-Muslim jurisdiction at the present time.

"[...]In 2004, Prince Charles called a meeting of leading Muslims to discuss the issue," adds Dr Sookhdeo. "I was there. All the Muslim leaders at that meeting agreed that the penalty in sharia is death. The hope was that they would issue a public declaration repudiating that doctrine, but not one of them did."

So there is not one Muslim leader who will condemn the apostasy penalty unequivocally? I suspect there are some, but not most.

"There is considerable support, from the Koran and other sacred Islamic texts, for that position - which may explain why, out of the 57 Islamic states in the world today, seven have a legal code that punishes Muslims who leave the religion with death.
"That number may soon increase: Pakistan is currently considering a Bill that would make apostasy a capital crime for men and one carrying a sentence of imprisonment for women."

There are more than 7 countries that have official penalties for apostasy. I suspect it is most, because even the most "moderate" Islamic countries (e.g., Malaysia and Indonesia) have some kind of penalties for apostasy. There are at least 12 countries in which the current official penalty for the adult male apostate is death.

Regarding Pakistan, the article notes, correctly, that the apostasy penalty is in the process of being reintroduced and, in any case, mobs of Muslims take it upon themselves to kill apostates or alleged apostates. In addition, apostates who go public can be punished currently via the blasphemy penalty.

Posted by: Khaybar Oasis at December 9, 2007 2:19 PM

OT

police are looking for a man with a beard and skull cap who just shot up a christian center in the US.

uh oh.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20071209/ap_on_re_us/missionary_shooting

Posted by: leonthepigfarmer at December 9, 2007 2:51 PM

From the article:

the Barnabas Fund, an organisation that aims to research and to ameliorate the conditions of Christians living in countries hostile to their religion

Which countries are hostile to Christians? Buddhist? How many Christians are persecuted for their faith in Hindu countries? I wonder to whom they are carefully and obliquely referring?

Posted by: special_guest at December 9, 2007 3:17 PM

Leonthepigfarmer:.....
Most Britons are not 'clueless'. We do know what is going on. Unfortunately in the past 10 years we have had almost 4000 new laws enacted by this (our) disgraced government, courtesy of the European Union. A good many of these laws have resulted in a clamp down on our freedoms, particularly freedom of speech. However, "from little acorns great Oaks grow", and there are signs of dissent. One or two mainstream journalists are beginning to state the obvious and it is a start. Remember....You can P*** some of the people off all of the time, you can p*** all of the people off some of the time, but you can't P*** all of the people off all of the time. Our day is on its way.

Posted by: Alan(UK) at December 9, 2007 3:19 PM

Most leading Muslims in Britain are unequivocal in their denunciation of British Muslim parents who threaten to kill their children for leaving Islam.

Ibrahim Mogra, of the Muslim Council of Britain (MCB), says that it is "absolutely disgraceful behaviour… In Britain, no Muslim has the right to harm one hair of someone who decides to leave Islam."

Inayat Bunglawala, also a spokesman for the MCB, insists that such behaviour in Britain is "awful and quite wrong. The police should crack down on it."

It's a subtle point, but note in all three paragraphs ... "in Britain". We are to understand, then, that they do NOT denounce this behavior when it occurs in certain other places, where it is more prevalent?

The last paragraph offers some insight.

The reluctance to condemn sharia law is widespread. I asked Mr Bunglawala, for instance, to condemn the Islamic states that imposed the death penalty for apostasy. He did not do so, merely commenting that "it was a matter for those states"....

Ah, I see. Apparently it is wrong, bad, bad, BAD to do such nastiness in a country not ruled by sharia, but if done in a Sharia state, well, that is a matter for those states. When in Dar al-Harb, do as ...

"In 2004, Prince Charles called a meeting of leading Muslims to discuss the issue," adds Dr Sookhdeo. "I was there. All the Muslim leaders at that meeting agreed that the penalty in sharia is death. The hope was that they would issue a public declaration repudiating that doctrine, but not one of them did."

I wonder, does "not one of them" include Bonnie Prince Charlie? I think it likely.

Posted by: Archimedes2 at December 9, 2007 3:34 PM

Alan(UK)

i hope you are right.

Posted by: leonthepigfarmer at December 9, 2007 3:50 PM

Leon, this should also raise suspicion:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20071209/ap_on_re_us/church_shooting;_ylt=AuBmNo423NKJYDBrtrWxfvFH2ocA

Posted by: TexasInfidel at December 9, 2007 4:05 PM

Sounds like a jihad in Colorado.

Posted by: Aiken Bryce at December 9, 2007 4:08 PM

thank you for proving my point about you guys detesting everyone else, Naseem, by saying :

"My gut feeing however is that the daughter has someone on the side...possibly a kaffur boyfriend who has corrupted her....looks like this part of the story is not out yet....the likelyhood is that he is the bastard to blame."

Well, your comments are also useful because they show how your culture thinks.

Just because Islam encourages its boys to go get outside girlfriends and corrupt them into Islam you assume that's what others do.

The same is true about your islamic attitudes to revenge: Whenever some mohammad blows up innocent people your Immans and oxymoronic "human rights associations" start bleating all over in fear of reprisals. It took me a while to realise that you are like this because you expect the rest of the world to have the same hatred and bloodlust as you moslems....

Posted by: exposesithlords at December 9, 2007 4:17 PM

AMNESTY FOR APOSTACY

How many of us wonder what the implications would be for the cult of islam, if apostates were guaranteed protection and shelter? How many slaves do you think would choose freedom over the islam? How many women do you think would prefer liberation over male domination?

The males will not leave the islam... why would they? After all, they are elevated over all other humans (because they are moslem), they can marry up to 4 wives & beat them at will; they can father as many children as the state is willing to support for them; they do not have to be employed. The males of the islam can openly espouse hatred and intolerance for the kafir, spit on western women (in particular), rape and kill at will with little risk of prosecution; especially if they rape and kill their own daughters, sisters and wives. They can even burn cars and trash entire neighborhoods with little risk of prosecution. The males of the islam have made entire cities 'no-go' zones. If I were a 20-something year old moslem male and ten feet tall and bullet proof, I sure wouldn't leave.

If the Western Nations would stand up and offer shelter and protection to the women slaves of the islam, they would voluntarily leave... in DROVES. Think of their children who would also be liberated.

Why aren't there laws that guarantee protection for 'apostates'? After all, islam is the only 'religion' that uses such a term. Guarantee all islamic defectors care, shelter, safety and protection and we can end this garbage.

Posted by: Laughs_at_Silly_Jihadis at December 9, 2007 4:22 PM

When your religion is more important to you than your own children; then that religion is evil.

In fact, all new immigrants to the west should be asked: what is more important to you, your religion or your children? And if they say their religion, then they should be prevented from immigrating to the west.

The more humane and compassionate that children are raised, then the more humane and compassionate that society becomes.

When we allow in people who have no hesitation in killing their own children, then society will go backwards.

Posted by: Voltaire at December 9, 2007 4:31 PM

When your religion is more important to you than your own children; then that religion is evil.

In fact, all new immigrants to the west should be asked: what is more important to you, your religion or your children? And if they say their religion, then they should be prevented from immigrating to the west.

The more humane and compassionate that children are raised, then the more humane and compassionate that society becomes.

When we allow in people who have no hesitation in killing their own children, then society will go backwards.

Posted by: Voltaire at December 9, 2007 4:31 PM

This story shows why Islamania is so dangerous. It places loyalty to a book conceived of by a madman above eveything-nation, family, common sense. Mindless devotion and obedience to the Koran has caused massive suffering throughout the world for centuries. That's why it must be defeated.

Posted by: ISLAMSFORLOSERS at December 9, 2007 4:36 PM

"When your religion is more important to you than your own children; then that religion is evil".

Voltaire, islam is a cult. Not a religion. When the world wakes up and admits this fact, terrorism will die along with the islam. See my post above re: religion v. cult. Sane and thinking people will agree, the islam (submission) has all of the hallmarks of a cult.

Posted by: Laughs_at_Silly_Jihadis at December 9, 2007 4:36 PM

If they kill you when you leave, it is a cult! These forms of Islam should be illegal. Freedom of religion means the freedom to leave a religion. I say this as a devote Christian. People who oppose the free movement of people in an out of various religions or no religion must not be allowed in a free society. Keep them out, repress them or expel them, whether Muslim, Christian, Hindu or whatever.

Here is a common definition of a cult.

"Studies of religious, political, and other cults have identified a number of key steps in this type of coercive persuasion:[24] 1. People are put in physically or emotionally distressing situations; 2. their problems are reduced to one simple explanation, which is repeatedly emphasized; 3. they receive unconditional love, acceptance, and attention from the leader; 4. they get a new identity based on the group; 5. they are subject to entrapment and their access to information is severely controlled."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cult#Dictionary_definitions_of_.22cult.22

Posted by: James Martel at December 9, 2007 4:49 PM

This story does not surprise me. When I read Sofia's words:

"It was such a shock. I remember thinking when they brought all my uncles round to try to intimidate me - all these men were lined up telling me how terrible a person I was, how the devil had taken me - I remember thinking, how can this be happening?"

I was reminded of similar accounts in two books that I read at least ten years ago. "The Torn Veil", by Sister Gulshan Esther, and "I Dared to Call HIm Father", by Bilquis Sheikh. Both were educated Pakistani Muslim women of good family. Gulshan in her late teens, as a crippled (and non-marriageable) daughter, and Bilquis, as a well-to-do divorcee and grandmother, both by a combination of miraculous and mundane factors came to the point of reading the Gospels in their mother tongue, and becoming fervent practising Christians.

When their families found out, all hell broke loose. Each underwent a terrifying 'family conference' of the exact kind that is described by Sofia in the posted article - surrounded by male relatives, previously experienced as friendly and protective, who had morphed into monsters frothing with demonic rage. Gulshan even had a gun held to her head by her own brother.

Both ended up having to flee their homeland.

Through reading those two ladies' testimonies I knew about, for example, the Law of Apostasy in Islam, and Islam's implacable, murderous hostility toward Christianity and indeed toward anything other than itself, long before I ever read anything written by Mr Spencer.

The story of Sofia, and of others like her, need to be shouted from the rooftops and all non-Muslim religious leaders need to be crying out to our political leaders, in non-Muslim countries, to be vigilant and implacable in defending the right of all citizens to freedom of conscience, freedom of religion, against the monstrous threat presented by Islam. The Right to Apostasise has got to be asserted and upheld in every Infidel country. Time for the streets and squares to be filled with marchers, with protesters - Christians, Jews, Hindus, Sikhs, Buddhists, Chinese dragon dancers, atheists and agnostics!

Honestly, we should be ringing the church bells every time we hear about a genuine apostate from Islam, be they a Christian like Sofia or a freethinker like Ayaan Hirsi Ali. They have shown enormous courage to break free from a mind-control cult. Their families have usually rejected and cursed them - which has got to be terribly painful and frightening. The defectors from Islam need to be welcomed and gathered into a loving community - 'welcome to the human race!' - so that other, potential defectors may be encouraged.

We cannot tolerate a religion that - like the mafia - proposes to kill any of its members who leave it, or try to leave it. Freedom of religion does NOT include the right to murder for 'religious' reasons.

God bless Sofia; may she persevere and grow in her new faith. May the church and the wider community in England be granted the courage and will to welcome and defend her.

Posted by: dumbledoresarmy at December 9, 2007 5:05 PM

If 36 percent of young adult (18-29) U.K. Muslims view Islam as a sort of Mafia where people who leave should be killed, I'd bet about 25 percent of all adult U.K. Muslims feel that way...That would be about 500,000 UK Muslims. Did the Mafia ever have 500,000 members in Italy, much less the UK? If only 25% of Muslims worldwide believe in the death penalty for apostasy -- and I'd bet the percentage is a good deal more than that -- but 25 percent would be about 300 million people. See the seriousness of the problem we are up against?

Posted by: traeh at December 9, 2007 5:28 PM

Naseem

You are partly right. There IS a man in this case.

Sofia IS in love. She has a divine lover. She has fallen in love with a JEW...Yeshua of Nazareth, whom English-speakers call 'Jesus': carpenter, rabbi, prince of peace, descendant of David, Lion of Judah, Lamb of God.

I don't think she will leave Him anytime soon, no matter what her parents say. "Many waters cannot quench love, neither can the floods drown it" - Song of Songs 8: 7.

In recent years Yeshua has taken to walking through walls, appearing to seeking Muslims in dreams and visions, and rescuing them out of Islam, just. like. that.

He rescued Sofia. He has also rescued, among others, Bishop Patrick Sookhdeo, who was once a Muslim and is now a faithful, courageous leader of the Christian church.

I hope that one day Jesus/ Yeshua, will rescue you, Naseem. Just ask him and mean it; and he will be there for you.

Because...he loves you, and he weeps for what Islam is doing to you, how it is twisting and destroying your humanity, the beauty he intended for you to have as His beloved.

Posted by: dumbledoresarmy at December 9, 2007 6:16 PM

SPECIAL Guest: As for Hinduism against Christianity, Nepal closed its borders to missions and persecuted native Christians (who usually got it during visits out of the country) down until almost the end of the 20th century. In India itself, am Australian missionary was attacked and burned to death by Hindus not too long ago. Some of the violence against low caste people and tribals that has happened was also sparked by Brahmins trying to stop conversions away from Hinduism.

Buddhism also can be rough on apostates. The Boxers in China--who killed many times more Chinese Christians, both Catholic and Protestant, than they did foreigners--thought they were defending Buddhism. Part of Myanmar's problem is that the border minorities are often Christian, while successive Burmese regimes made being Theravada Buddhist a part of being Burmese.

Granted, Islam is the bigger problem right now, but there's plenty of ugliness to go around.

As for the young lady in England, people like her are one reason why I'm not ready to completely close the door. The spearheads of evangelization in Morocco and Turkey are returned Guest Workers or former immigrants who became Christians overseas. In the USA, among Christians of Iranian origins, believers from Muslim backgrounds are poised to outnumber those of Armenian and Assyrian heritage, if it hasn't happened already. If Christians in the West would bother to offer a loving witness to their Muslim neighbors (and take the time to know their own faith), we'd probably see a lot more of this happening.

I pray for the day when the Genevan metrical Psalms are sung in Arabic in Mecca itself.

Posted by: Kepha at December 9, 2007 6:30 PM

Assalamau Laikum all,

I know many muslim families in the UK and I see how they take care of their childrens ...to ensure that the daughters are brought up as responsible muslims.

The education of the muslimas in particular is of importance. For example, it is difficult to explain to patronising kaffur that a muslima (who I know in a UK South Coast town personally) who is qualified as a pharmacist should still marry in the extended family, both to bring another family member over from Pak and to strengthen that family's standing in the community for upholding the values of Islam.

Obvioulsy YOUR generation find the customs of Allah's chosen "foreign"....but what about your children, you need to teach them well and they will become one or at least appreciate and understand that we muslims have incredible strength in our family values.

It is obvious that the parents here, have no idea of how to cope with this difficult situation....and obviously beatings and death threats will have the opposite effect of what they are trying to achieve....which is to get to the status-quo they used to have before.

Please do not think too bad of us, these parents are caring loving people, who are being tested by Allah SWT.

One day you too maybe tested...by your daughter bringing home a muslim boyfriend.....whom your daughter loves and wants to marry....please allow them to.....much can be achived as their childrens will be wuslims...these are the "meek" who shall inheret the earth....

Posted by: Naseem at December 9, 2007 6:42 PM

Naseem says,

I know many muslim families in the UK...

As you should considering you live there. On the dole too?

Posted by: Aiken Bryce at December 9, 2007 6:52 PM

Kepha said

Buddhism also can be rough on apostates.

I keep promising myself to start buddhawatch.org to keep track of all the violent attacks by Buddhists in the name of Buddhism, but haven't done so yet. But that's a good reminder, I need to get on that.

Posted by: special_guest at December 9, 2007 7:01 PM

'Ikrimah said: 'Ali burned some people who retreated from Islam. When Ibn 'Abbas was informed of it, he said: If it had been I, I would not have them burned, for the Apostle of Allah (may peace be upon him) said: Do not inflict Allah's punishment on anyone, but would have had killed them on account of the statement of the Apostle of Allah (may peace be upon him). The Apostle said: Kill those who change their religion.

Ali was a fine man...So was Abbas...

And not only that, but if the Islamic authority can't kill the apostate, it becomes the obligation of the mob, even if the mob consists of one person, or many family members. They are not murderers for following Sharia law, The Quran or Mohammads edicts.
A license to kill...Even your own children...
And these are the superior beings who want to rule the world.

This is what Naseem wants us to become. If I convert to Islam, Naseem, will I be on the same superiority level as you immediately, or do I have to work up to it? I don't want to wait to long, or work to hard to be superior...

Posted by: duh_swami at December 9, 2007 7:17 PM

The only good thing about things like this, which happen all the time and only occasionally break into the mainstream media, is that it raises awareness about the folly of allowing immigration from Muslim countries. How does Herr "Imam" benefit Britain economically? That is the main argument for mass immigration.

On a human level, this woman should be protected and her father prosecuted. On a societal/policy level, this just illustrates how mass immigration, particularly from Muslims countries, does not benefit a society and in fact adds huge costs to a society both economic and cultural.

Posted by: Wimbledon Womble at December 9, 2007 7:36 PM

"Allah SWT."--posted above

There is no "Allah." "allah" is a pre-Islamic pagan moon deity, a rock idol, that doesn't exist.

The most pitiful thing about Islam, among all of the MANY PITIFUL things about it, is that the followers worship a god that doesn't exist.

So pitiful. Imagine all of the Moslem suicide-bombers who die and realize they murdered and then died for nothing - for a god and a paradise that don't exist. Pitiful, absolutely pitiful.

Poor Islam. The most pitiful, idiotic, belief system on the planet. Scientology is more plausible.

Posted by: darcy at December 9, 2007 8:15 PM

Naseem is real, and to be pitied. And taken as an instructive example, for she teaches us things, though not the things she thinks she is teaching.

Posted by: Hugh at December 9, 2007 12:34 PM

Oh, so right.

Posted by: darcy at December 9, 2007 8:19 PM

This is Dagenham in London! This is Britain

Sorta.

Posted by: Alarmed Pig Farmer at December 9, 2007 8:27 PM

It's interesting that Naseem mentioned a female Muslim training as a pharmacist. I one saw a hijabbed pharmacist working in a chemists in Wembley - briefly. Prescriptions were taken to a hole in a the wall behind the counter by the shop assistant, and a curtain was pulled aside: the young lady in the back room took it, and then closed the curtain again while she made it up.What amused me was that the word 'purdah' is derived from the Persian word for curtain.

Posted by: wallyUK at December 9, 2007 9:03 PM

Diversions of Purdah.

Posted by: Hugh at December 9, 2007 9:09 PM

Strange, I almost drove off the road!

Walid Shoebat was on local AM talk radio and he spelled out in detail what are CAIR's intention for the United States Constitution, that according to its founder it is to be replaced with Sharia law. Islamic law is to dominate eventually when the demographics turn the tables on our constitutional law and, in their words, "the US Constitution will come to them." That this is being talked about openly on talk radio nationwide gives hope, that Americans are not as clueless as we fear. He said clearly CAIR is NOT a civil rights organization by one dedicated to Sharia conquest of our constitutional laws.

The talk didn't touch on 'death for apostasy' this time, but they will, give them time.

The commentator ended by saying "know who you are dealing with." Obviously, the Islam 'religion of peace' political movement is being addressed, and undressed publicly, though many still don't want to hear it. Hear it they must.

http://www.shoebat.com/

Like this site and others, there is hope.

Posted by: Battle_of_Tours at December 9, 2007 9:09 PM

Naseem,
What about a Christian boy bringing home a Muslim girlfriend?

Posted by: jay at December 9, 2007 9:25 PM

Jay, Naseem can't answer you. Muslims NEVER answer a direct question. They would rather you 'rephrase' the question, or else they will say the question is 'irrelevant' or some such. They are simply unable to answer a reasonable question because their religion (of peace) has no rational response embedded in its texts. So don't expect an answer to yours: "Naseem,
What about a Christian boy bringing home a Muslim girlfriend?"

What can she possibly say, knowing that a Muslim girl going out with a non-Muslim is grounds for her punishment, family ostracism, or death. Americans, and the world, need to know.

Posted by: Battle_of_Tours at December 9, 2007 10:25 PM

"...upholding the values of Islam."

"...incredible strength in our family values."

Posted by Naseem

The values which have become transparent regarding Muslim families include lying, psychological and physical abuse, and murder. We see this over and over again when a girl merely wants to seek an education or marry a man of HER choosing, even if he is Muslim. Muslim families are amazingly cohesive when it comes to circling the wagons around their psycho/sociopathic existences.

In my city a girl was found slain in the 1980's. The parents, from Gaza, claim she attacked them. The FBI happened to be wiretapping the home because the father had been suspected of tax fraud and wiring money to the PLO. In the tapes, which were eventually released, the mother tells the daughter to 'be quiet' and holds her in a tub while the father stabs her. When the DA investigated "honor killings' she was rebuffed by the community. Thank God for those tapes. Both parents died in prison.

Posted by: CapitalistGig at December 9, 2007 10:44 PM

"Walid Shoebat was on local AM talk radio and he spelled out in detail what are CAIR's intention for the United States Constitution, that according to its founder it is to be replaced with Sharia law. Islamic law is to dominate eventually when the demographics turn the tables on our constitutional law and, in their words, 'the US Constitution will come to them.'"
-- from a posting above

Walid Shoebat's remark is, as everyone at this site knows, not only true, but should be deduced, quite naturally, from the texts and tenets of Islam. It is not possible to divide the world between Believer and Infidel, not possible to insist that a state of permanent war (if not always open warfare) exists between Believers and Infidels, Dar al-Islam and Dar al-Harb, not possible to be taught that a central duty is to engage in Jihad, the "struggle" to remove every conceivable obstacle to the spread, and then to the dominance, of Islam, and for Muslims at the same time to accept the continued existence of the American Constitution, or for that matter any of the legal and political institutions of this, or any other Infidel nation-state. There is a flat contradiction between the tenets of Islam, and those institutions of those nation-states. Read the texts. Study them. Make sense of them. Thoroughly assimilate what Islam teaches about the rights of individuals. Compare. Contrast.

End of story.

Posted by: Hugh at December 9, 2007 11:14 PM

Islam is an evil criminal cult and the behavior of Muslins goes against human nature. Mohammad knew this and the promise of paradise after dying for the cult, or guarantee of death for leaving the cult, were effective means to keep his little band of murderous thugs motivated. And the booty, of course, and what the right hand possesses, of course

Posted by: Dsinc at December 10, 2007 12:43 AM

I hope that UK Jihadwatchers are writing letters of commendation to the Editor of the "Telegraph" for running this story. Praise him for thus informing the public about things that it desperately needs to know.

Make sure that the letter includes a couple of the relevant Muslim texts - e.g. the classic Hadith line, attributed to Muhammad, "If anyone changes his religion, kill him!", and a couple of the stories from the Hadith, about loyalty to Islam trumping familial and other loyalties - e.g. the man who killed his benefactor. Refer him to "The Truth About Muhammad" and "The Politically Incorrect Guide to Islam and the Crusades". Let him know that whenever he runs stories like this, you will buy his paper - if you are a businessperson, let him know you will consider his paper for ad placement.

Such letters could also commend the reporter, Alasdair Palmer, for courage in the pursuit of truth and, on the whole, for quite a well-written piece (e.g. he consulted Sookhdeo and reported Sookhdeo's reference to Islamic jurisprudence). You could tell him that his story has been posted at this website and viewed and discussed in depth by people from the USA, Australia, Canada, India, and other places. Refer him to Our Hugh's Recommended Reading list - in particular, refer him to Roy Carlson's "Under Cover" and "Cairo to Damascus", so as to give him an example of real, heroic investigative journalism can be.

We need journalists with the courage of an old-fashioned war correspondent, because when they report truthfully on Jihad-related and Sharia-related stories, they ARE war correspondents, right there in Britain or the USA, Canada, Australia or India. They don't need to be in Iraq or Afghanistan!

Posted by: dumbledoresarmy at December 10, 2007 12:49 AM

Compare and contrast.

Robert frequently cites the University of Southern California Muslim Students Association website in citing passages from Qur'an and hadith.

I cite this particular statement, among others, from that site, in much of my correspondence with elected officials and journalists:

"Islam is the name of a way of life which the Creator wants us to follow. We avoid the word religion because in many non-Islamic societies, there is a separation of "religion and state." This separation is not recognized at all in Islam: the Creator is very much concerned with all that we do, including the political, social, economic, and other aspects of our society. Hence, Islam is a complete way of life."

Note that it's from the 'Misconceptions About Islam' section.

http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/notislam/misconceptions.html

Islam, that 'complete way of life', is a theocracy, and theocracy is antithetical to democracy. And American Muslims know that.

Islam cannot be practiced, as Muhammad intended it to be, in the United States. And Keith Ellison knows that.

I know that.

Do any of our presidential candidates know that?

Posted by: PRCS at December 10, 2007 2:01 AM

PRCS,

Thanks for that reference. The MSA members are not too shy about revealing their agenda.

Posted by: Khaybar Oasis at December 10, 2007 3:31 AM

"Clearly a sad case. That the daughter should let her parents, her culture, her prayers, her deen ....is clearly down to her parents not taking enough care of her daughter's education needs......

Posted by Naseem"

....just what education needs would that be?....the Qur'an? (the Islamic war guidelines for domination of the world)....the Shar'ia (Islamic system for administering draconian law to enforce the Qur'anic teachings)....or something more simple: "You are Muslim and you must hate and seek to kill all Non Muslims>."

...what these parents are discovering is that Young Muslim Children when exposed to Christianity prefer it over Islam....(and maybe that music loving, life loving, caring , sharing, pretty whiteboy infidel appeals more to their daughter that does the bearded , finger pointing, crazed Islamic old man the parents had selected to become her husband...or maybe she has acquired a taste for fine perfume, levi jeans , Sean John, Baby Phatt, Enyce, Pelle Pelle, Mecca , Rebul, Raw Blue, South Pole, Victoria Secret, Bling Bling, Air Jordan, Nike, CLH Hoodies, ......maybe she compared that with burka, chador, veil, hijab, (basically in black or white only)....

....Maybe she went deeper and looked into the history and teachings of Christianity and the familm lifestyles of Christians and compared them to the lifestyles and teachings of Islam....maybe she saw Islam for what it really is....maybe she saw Christianity in a different light than what the bearded, fingerpointin, crazed Muslims have been harping on during her entire life...Maybe she saw hope for life rather that hope for death...Maybe she looked around and discovered that Christians develope better communities that do Muslims do...Maybe her suspected Kuffar boyfriend talked about love as oppose to the talk about hate heard in her family home....maybe she heard talk about peace instead of war...

...Maybe she felt she was an individual, an individual who should not be mired down in a 1400 year old system of death and war...Maybe she tired of being told to "kill them where you find them", maybe she tired of being treated as a slave to serve Islam in any manner decided by others...maybe she discovered some truths about Islam...maybe she actually began to read history and the current events regarding Islam....Maybe she discovered Islam is not all it is cracked up to be....

Just Maybe.....

Posted by: exsgtbrown at December 10, 2007 7:08 AM

A book I have called "Infidels" by Andrew Wheatcroft has written on the front cover: "Islam rose, fell, then rose again" (i.e.now).

What are we going to do about this 2nd rising in our time? Where is Charles Martel? What are we going to do?

Posted by: darcy at December 10, 2007 8:54 AM

Assalamau Laikum exsgtbrown,

I was deeply concerned and a little miffed at your post....obviously you have every right to your opinion....however my concern is this.....

Virtually every post of yours makes us muslims seem like monsters and uncaring unloving parents/childrens, all immensely worried about Allah SWT will do every living minute of the day.

Well on the whole this is an inaccurate statement...Look, you need to know that we too are human beings capable of love, appreciation of the arts and music.

We too want the best for our childrens....I believe that infact muslims make very good parents...we look after every aspect of their life ....and in most cases muslim childerns are well spoken and respectful.

Where I agree with you is when a situation arises when the family unit breaks down, usually due to the instability of childrens thinking....brought about particularily when their home thinking is subtly challenged by some clever kaffur offering flowers, chocolates, affection to get his leg over. Obvously you may think of this as a conquest, but a muslima will be thrown by this, affectiing her ability to think rationally only to be with the kaffur.

The right thing for the muslima is to get the hell out of this situation....does she REALLY want to face the wrath of Allah SWT? does sho really want to face the wrath of her family? does she really want to jepordise her chances in the after life.....and all for what?....for what I ask you Mr.Brown?....a kiss and a fondle from a kaffur who is likely to move on the moment the action is "too slow".

As you may well know Mr. Brown, often the poor parents get to know when things are well advanced...and the muslima is damned if does and damned if she doesn't.

Serious challenges arise, and thinking out of the box....in a calm manner under extreme pressure, where you whole standing within the community is blown sky high...well that's hard....and I agree muslims are not good at coping with this....and in some ways the basic instinct of fight or flight ....(with the all connotations that you care to associate these words)are considered.

But caring does not make us bad parents...honor killing and beatings DO....and we need to learn to cope better.

I am emotional about this particular subject because ...you may or may not know ( and I have talked about this before) but my son .....my own son has brought about a situation like this to hinder my status quo.

When back from the UK (at Anwer's burial), I asked him to stay in Pak to run the business and about 6 weeks after that I brought about the subject of his possible nikah (marriage).

"But Ammi...I already have someone"..... Oh!!! ..."Kya larki Ahmadi haa?" (is she Ahmadi?)I asked somewhat tentatively.

"Well no...she's christian...but I hoping she will convert!....Ammi she is Sarah and we are in love".

Well to cut a long story short, I call her Sara...not Sarah...I have met her...a sweet girl...and (currently) a christian.

I rather suspect however that was well put off by the prospect of moving to & living in Pak....she has agreed to conversion ...but wants us to move to UK rather than the other way round....I mean the gall of the woman.

My son and I are at an impasse...he wants to go...but knows of his responsibilities to the business that his father build....and I refuse to leave my family home.

Mr.Brown, I ask you "is all this aggravation over Sarah/Sara worth it?" I told him that there would be no shortage of muslima suitors....but he does not agree.

And yes, Mr. Brown....now I do think it was not worth sending him to a UK UNI...his thinking is unstable...and my world is in turmoil....but it should not be....NOT over a kaffira.

Posted by: Naseem at December 10, 2007 9:09 AM

The right thing for the muslima is to get the hell out of this situation....does she REALLY want to face the wrath of Allah SWT? does sho really want to face the wrath of her family? does she really want to jepordise her chances in the after life.....and all for what?....for what I ask you Mr.Brown?....a kiss and a fondle from a kaffur who is likely to move on the moment the action is "too slow". - Posted by Naseem

Yes, if the Muslima is a natural human being, she will be concerned about all these things. She will question is she a human being first, or a servant of Allah's death cult for humanity as demanded by his misguided prophet. If she chooses to be a free and rational human being, regardless of whether or not she has a non-Muslim boyfriend, she is living in the West where human freedoms of the individual are valued over those of slaves to Allah, or slaves to what the imam says she is to be and do, and think. So what is her rational choice, if she is a natural human being, and not a slave to Allah? Either she does not belong in our society, or she chooses freedom and love over hate and death. If your choice had been made to follow Mohammed's cult of death, that is your choice. But if another chooses life instead, then why would you stop her? Jealous she could have a real life, as opposed to the stifling strictures of your religious cult of Islam? "..Get the hell out of this situation" offers you two choices: either stay and suffer for your cult of death and sweat daily over what will happen to you in your mythical 'hell', or get the hell out of your living hell on Earth and embrace freedom and love of humanity, ALL humanity, as equal human beings. What will the Muslima choose? What did you choose? A life of servitude to your death cult as dictated to her by the imams? A life of turmoil and instability because you have to stand on your own two feet, or a life of submission where others will dictate your life for you, with punishments and death? But if you choose death cult, then why should you live in our Western civilization's freedoms? There is the choice, or "get the hell out of the situation", and leave.

Which 'status quo' do you want. for your self and your son? Death and servitude or life and freedom? Can you stand making such choice? Do you have the guts it takes to be a free human being, and the tremendous responsibility this demands? Or will you submit to slavery for the rest of your life and his life, and all others who are trapped in your monstrous cult? You must choose.

Posted by: Battle_of_Tours at December 10, 2007 10:18 AM

"Thanks for that reference. The MSA members are not too shy about revealing their agenda."

No problem.

Here's what those Muslims say about the misconception that 'Islam means peace':

Misconception 1

Islam is `the religion of peace' because:
the Arabic word Islam is derived from the Arabic word "Al-Salaam" which means peace.

It might seem strange to think of this as a misconception, but in fact it is. The root word of Islam is "al-silm" which means "submission" or "surrender." It is understood to mean "submission to Allah." In spite of whatever noble intention has caused many a Muslim to claim that Islam is derived primarily from peace, this is not true. Allah says in the Qur'an (translated):

[2:136] Say (O Muslims): We believe in Allah and that which is revealed to us and that which was revealed to Abraham, and Ishmael, and Isaac, and Jacob, and the tribes, and that which Moses and Jesus received, and that which the prophets received from their Lord. We make no distinction between any of them, and to Him we have surrendered. [Arabic "Muslimoon"]

A secondary root of Islam may be "Al-Salaam" (peace), however the text of the Qur'an makes it clear that Allah has clearly intended the focus of this way of life to be submission to Him. This entails submission to Him at all times, in times of peace, war, ease, or difficulty.

I'm impressed with a couple of our current presidential candidates, but, six years post 9/11, it doesn't appear that any of them (even Huckabee--with a degree in theology) has taken the time to research the ideology of those who wish to convert, subjugate, or wage war against 'unbelievers'.

I'm afraid most of them would refer to the MSA as 'radical, extremist, Islamist,...'.

Posted by: PRCS at December 10, 2007 11:19 AM

CapitalistGig, could you contact me at a_plague_on_both_houses@hotmail.com? I'd like to exchange some information with you through some email account you may have that can't be directly connected to you ( like mine )

Posted by: A_Plague_on_Both_Houses at December 10, 2007 1:13 PM

"Where are the feminist groups!?"

they are out there. http://feminist.org/
but sadly their activism doesn't cover islam.

Posted by: leonthepigfarmer at December 9, 2007 11:11 AM
===============================================
I went to the above-referenced web site, and on the "Global Feminism" tab, there are some items which discuss the plight of women in Muslim-occupied lands.

So, actually, if your only source of information on this topic was feminist.org, you would find out at least some accurate information about it.

Posted by: PersonOfTheBook at December 10, 2007 2:03 PM

[2:136] Say (O Muslims): We believe in Allah and that which is revealed to us and that which was revealed to Abraham, and Ishmael, and Isaac, and Jacob, and the tribes, and that which Moses and Jesus received, and that which the prophets received from their Lord. We make no distinction between any of them, and to Him we have surrendered. [Arabic "Muslimoon"] A secondary root of Islam may be "Al-Salaam" (peace), however the text of the Qur'an makes it clear that Allah has clearly intended the focus of this way of life to be submission to Him. This entails submission to Him at all times, in times of peace, war, ease, or difficulty.

“And to Him we have surrendered” is a loaded statement when taken within context of Islam. “Submission to Him” applied universally for all humanity is one thing, while applied only to the Muslim-way means something totally different. Which ‘submission’ are we to believe in?

If the young lady converts from Islam to Christianity, is she not also ‘submitting’ to Him? What would make us suspect otherwise? We are all living entities within Him (if one must use archaic religious analogy) when we make choices in our lives in every second of our existence. This is universal for ALL humanity, not just some select group defined by a slightly mad pedophile warlord of the 7th century. The Koran was assembled by successor caliphs several decades after Mohammed’s death, so the corruption of texts (written on bark, leaves, bits of wood) is not beyond the pale. Furthermore, the caliphs had an agenda (like CAIR has today) to subdue all humanity to their power structure and unite all conquered peoples under their rule. So ‘submitting’ to Him has a vastly different inference from a universal 'submitting to Him' in every breath we take while alive.

The Muslima choosing Christianity is every bit as entitled to her belief in submitting to Him as is any other human being of the planet. But this is something lost on Islam, because it imagines itself as being the ONLY rule of the universe, not the other way around, where we are ALL ruled by the universe in every breath we take while alive. Our universality of freedom is ‘submitting’ to that rule of the universe, with all its laws and reason, and not to some slightly mad prophet of ancient barbaric times, who was glorified and immortalized by his Arab conquest driven successor caliphs. She has every right to submit to Him, just as every other human being of the planet has that right, and no Islamic agenda or person can ever take that away from her, in peace or war, or any difficulty.

"Peace in submission" is what every human being does in every second of their lives. To deny this right to humanity is to power over them with artificial controls of fasle 'submission' as dictated by the slave masters of Allah, which is unacceptable to us today as a violation of our human rights. This all comes down to control: Who is to controll 'submission'? Is it Him, and the universe within which we are alive, or 'Him' as conjured up in Mohammed's mad moon-god ravings. Choose one, because one sets your free, while the other makes you slave. Obviously, this young lady chose freedom through Christianity in her submission to Him.

Posted by: Battle_of_Tours at December 10, 2007 4:06 PM

I followed the link and read the whole article. Here's a quote: "Sofia got a job in a hotel and quickly became a manager. Her interest in Christianity was entirely self-generated. She acquired a Bible, which she hid in her bedroom. But four years ago, her mother found it."

So. "She acquired a Bible". NO-ONE 'proselytised' her. NO-ONE seduced, or bribed, or threatened her. She just...decided to check out the Christian faith, and obtained a Bible, and read it. She used her intelligence, and made an informed choice: to leave Islam and embrace the Biblical God (who is NOT 'allah'). Faith and reason working together, like Benedict 16 said in his Regensburg Address.

'Sofia' has met and chosen YHWH, the Giver of Life, who desires not grovelling slaves who obey out of fear, but friends who co-operate freely, because they know, trust and love Him.

Posted by: dumbledoresarmy at December 10, 2007 5:25 PM

'Sofia' has met and chosen YHWH, the Giver of Life, who desires not grovelling slaves who obey out of fear, but friends who co-operate freely, because they know, trust and love Him. - Posted by dumbledoresarmy

That's the whole gig, that 'Sophia' submitted to Him of her own free choice, was not coerced or deceived into it, and found the YHWH of love, the Giver of Life, to whom 'submission' means Life, and love -- not death, or fear. She exercised her right to submit to Life, of her own free choice, which is the ultimate pinacle of 'submission', a real submission to Life. She found the Truth, trust in a loving God, and this set her free.

Posted by: Battle_of_Tours at December 10, 2007 5:39 PM

Now - a further question - WHY are not the stories of these brave women, 'Sofia', and 'Hannah' who featured in another thread, featuring on the covers of the womens' magazines across the non-Muslim world?

WHY are the female comperes of talk shows - e.g. Oprah Winfrey - not running interviews with the women apostates from Islam?

In Australia there was a documentary which put together a bunch of high-achieving Aboriginal women: the format was that they all had dinner together and talked about their lives, and the resulting film, 'Black Chicks Talking', was something of a 'hit'.

How about doing the same for 'Now They Call Us Apostates'? A scenario that brought together about twenty ex-Muslim women around a splendid dinner table in a five-star restaurant or stately home (in a Secure Undisclosed Location) 'swapping stories' of their lives, and their journey out of Islam to different faiths or nonfaith, along with no-holds-barred discussion of the way Islam treats women, during the course of a full-scale formal banquet, could make a brilliant documentary.

Imagine Wafa Sultan, Nonie Darwish, Ayaan Hirsi Ali, 'Hannah' the Imam's daughter, 'Sofia', Daniel Shayesteh's wife Mary, Lina Joy, and about a dozen others, telling their stories to each other and to a 'host'/ facilitator. CGI could be used to protect identities of guests as required or requested. Even Taslima Nasreen could be invited - if not formally apostate she's as near as no matter.

Hint: a Danish director. Distinguished guests at the dinner: Queen Margrethe and Princess Mary.

Make it without making any noise, and then release it, fait accompli.

Most of these ladies are so smart, so gorgeous, and their life stories, even of the humblest of them, so dramatic, indeed heart-wrenching, that it should surely be a blockbuster.

Posted by: dumbledoresarmy at December 10, 2007 6:36 PM

The Telegraph 'Sofia' is me. I was intervied by alasdair last week. And no, my conversion wasn't due to a kufar boyfriend. but thanks naseem, for your typically islamic and sadly pathetic assumption.

Posted by: Daughter of Zion at December 10, 2007 7:22 PM

Daughter of Zion:

Greetings in the Risen Lord and peace be upon you. I wish you a joyous Advent, and safety for your "journey." If you indeed are Sofia, you will need the prayers I offer for you tonight around my advent candles plus many more!

Posted by: CapitalistGig at December 10, 2007 7:33 PM

Well, here we go..
Islam is one sick religion
when daughters and sisters
can be killed by fathers and brothers.

Here is one in Canada,
16 year old girl near death
after her father gets nuts
over her not wanted to wear
that head cover thingie.

Good reason to out law that head gear. Maybe it would have saved her if it was against the law.

http://network.nationalpost.com/np/blogs/toronto/archive/2007/12/10/teen-girl-in-critical-condition-after-alleged-dispute-over-hijab.aspx

Posted by: Joe Schmoe USA at December 10, 2007 10:25 PM

Greetings, 'daughter of Zion'.

Yes, if you are 'Sofia', welcome, sister, in the name of Yeshua/ Jesus. You - and your family - will be remembered in my prayers.

Do please continue to visit Mr Spencer's website here. I visualise 'dhimmiwatch' and 'jihadwatch' as a sort of virtual living-room/ tactics room/ war bunker/hedge school/ tavern/ coffee house/ Gentleman's Club (Lady Guests Welcome). Your insight will be appreciated.

I'm sure I speak for others here when I ask: how did you find 'dhimmiwatch'?

Posted by: dumbledoresarmy at December 11, 2007 1:21 AM

Assalamau Laikum 'daughter of Zion',

Peoples here take me at face value (which is unfortunate) but I will accept who you are.

If you indeed choose to believe in Isa PBUh instead of the message of Muhd PBUH ...then you should know that they are of the same faith.

If instead you have chosen to believe the christian version of Isa ....then Sofia, dear you need to complete your study ....and then return to the fold of Islam.

I too studied Christianity for a few months....but the Bible inconsistencies....like for example being shocked to find that Jesus had brothers whilst the peoples here peddle him being the only son and part of the trinity.

The lies about Mary being a virgin when Jesus had brothers ....well at that point I gave up & came back to (Ahmadi) Islam.

Sofia, if I have offended you in some way ...then I am sorry....usually there is a kaffur involved (like my own pathetic son's case)....

Listen to me sister, complete your studies then come back into the deen....there's a good girl.

Posted by: Naseem at December 11, 2007 5:02 AM

Apparently in the muslim world ink is thicker than blood. Devout muslims would murder their own children rather than let them convert to another religion. One can only wonder why the young lady wished to convert, what with the arranged marriages, female genital mutilation, honor killings and all that. How could anyone in their right mind walk away from all that? Naseem is a perfect example of the lunacy of Islam, how can anyone argue with logic like hers? These posts do not make muslims seem like monsters, they clearly illustrate the reality that they are monsters, capable of horrific violence against anyone, even their own family member!

Posted by: HereticInfidel at December 11, 2007 8:39 AM

I have been a reader and an observer of the JihadWatch-DhimmiWatch site for some 2-3 years. I thank you for your kind comments and prayers. You have no idea how much I am truly grateful for such kind words. (Thanks naseem, but no thanks)

Being a Brit from the once Great Britain, I can honestly say that some things need to be 'shouted from the roof tops' to the British public. Pushing multiculturalism-muslim intergration-making everything islamic friendly -Sharia finance, and simply everything from an islamic appeasing government to halal food and Islamic NHS just isn't going to work neither will it put a stop to the threat of terrorism!

Posted by: Daughter of Zion at