Maybe there's also some lingering resentment that a Jewish woman POW and sex slave poisoned Mohammad, slowly killing him (and mocking him that a real "prophet" would have known there was a toxin in the mutton, while a mere earthly "king" - or warlord- would not)?

Posted by: profitsbeard at December 31, 2007 11:32 AM

Kuntzel comes off as a spoiled child ranting "It's not fair, after all the work I've done" when it's obvious to the casual observer that the effort was severely lacking comprehension of sharia induced dhimmi status throughout Islamic history.

Kuntzel had an agenda which his thesis could not prove. When confronted with the numerous historic examples of jihad, dhimmitude and institutionalized anti-semitism, Kuntzel accuses Dr. Bostom of generalising. LOL.

Posted by: justamomof4 at December 31, 2007 11:51 AM

How Kuntzel could miss something that's pretty obvious does show that he's more agenda-driven than fact-driven.

This "somthing obvious" is that given that Muslims venerate Muhammed as much as Christians venerate Jesus, it would be nearly impossible to miss the fact that parallel to the Christian charges against the Jews of "deicide", Muslims had equal theological basis to hate the Jews based on their rejection of Muhammed's claim to prophet status. Given the position of Muhammed in Muslim "mythology", the depth of "evil" inherent in the Jews would be exactly the same in the Muslim mind as the "evil" inherent in the Jews in the Christian mind.

There is no reason to bring in anything European at all. If anything, there may be a broader "modern" context in which present-day Muslim anti-Semitism exists, with modern society's rationalization of production, etc., as described by Max Weber, for example.

Posted by: venividivici at December 31, 2007 12:24 PM

When confronted with the numerous historic examples of jihad, dhimmitude and institutionalized anti-semitism, Kuntzel accuses Dr. Bostom of generalising. LOL.

This seriously calls for a "Well, duh!". Bostom's whole thesis is that trying to "particularize" Muslim anti-Semitism ignores the fact that it has been a "general" feature of Islam since it's inception!

So Muslim anti-Semitism might have taken on a slightly different form in the 20th century, that doesn't mean it wasn't built off the same base. The child is father to the man, after all.

Posted by: venividivici at December 31, 2007 12:31 PM

Kuntzel had started his book before becoming aware of the material Bostom accumulated. But once that material was made known to him (and it was), he had a duty not to ignore it, as he had, but to discuss it rather than to write a book that made astonishing claims, both about the sources of antisemitism in the Islamic world -- an antisemitism (of a particular, Islamic kind) that Kuntzel, though he concedes an anti-Jewish aspect to Islam from the very beginning, nonetheless suggests has its origins in recent European antisemitism.

This is an untenable thesis, as Bostom shows, piling up the evidence in an almost embarrassing heap that leaves one astonished that Kuntzel would dare not to admit he was wrong, re-think his thesis, and do what eventually, to avoid ridicule, he will have to do -- unless he is now so embarrassed that he will simply cling, with the obstinacy of someone whose scholarly amour-propre has been wounded before the world, to his original view.

But the thesis was originally maintained by Kuntzel because it would make things so much easier, for him, for Germany, for the countries of Western Europe, for the entire Infidel world, if Islam itself were largely blameless, and if the greatest of the hatreds it inculcates (for the hostility, the hatred, is directed at all non-Muslims, not only Jews though they are subject, as the excerpts assembled by Bostom testify, to a particularly virulent form) could be depicted as a European, even Christian, import -- well, then there really is a way to solve any little malelentendus between Islam and the West, by giving those apologists for Islam the very out they seek, as they attempt to pretend that there is very little wrong with Islam, and only the "perversion" of this "great faith" -- in the case in question, the "perversion" of Islam by those wrong-headed souls who for some reason were so taken with the Nazis -- has to be dealt with.

Yes. It would be nice.

But there is one problem. It isn't true.

Posted by: Hugh at December 31, 2007 12:38 PM

only the "perversion" of this "great faith" -- in the case in question, the "perversion" of Islam by those wrong-headed souls who for some reason were so taken with the Nazis -- has to be dealt with.

Hugh, do you happen to know the standard rationalization for how Islam, which, according to that Turkish document posted yesterday is "perfect, logical and true", could possibly be "perverted"? Is it along the lines of "The Devil made me do it?"

If that's the case, I don't see how we could get through to these people in terms of explaining that the source of their problems is Islam, when they always have a ready-made metaphysical answer to the questions about their failures.

Posted by: venividivici at December 31, 2007 12:52 PM

Mohammed was a loser. He was insanely jealous of the Jews, overacheivers they.

First he ordered the murder of the venerable Abu Afak. Then the cold-blooded murder of the courageous woman Asma Marwan. Then all those hundreds of Jews were decapitated or sold into sex slavery out of Qurayza.

Islam at its very root is based on hatred of Jews. Me? I admire Jews. Maybe a little jealous of their manifold accomplishments, but how can you not like Jews? They're great people.

Moslems? They worship murder and theft and sex slavery. Screw 'em all.

Posted by: Alarmed Pig Farmer at December 31, 2007 1:58 PM

Read the Qur'an. the antipathy towards Jews is clearly stated.

Posted by: tanstaafl at December 31, 2007 2:23 PM

There is good reason to study both Botsom and Kuntzel. Certainly the Islamic war agaist Jews is 1400 years old and based on jealousy, score settling and tribal rivalry. It is part and parcel of Islam and it is uesd to justify hatred, violence, theft, rape, supremacy, ignorance and lazyness.

It is also true that a modern version of Islamic anti-Semitism promoted by Al-Banna and the Mufti Huisseini was influenced by the Nazis and Europeans and has been used as a common language with Europeans. This language is at the heart of the Euro/Arabian dialogue that has led to Eurabia. These tropes, memes and slanders are now embedded in the Western leftist/Jihaddist axis. It appears that Islamists think this newer version will go down better with western audiences. Westerners and Muslims speaking to infidel audiences usually rail against Israel or Zionists but they are transparent to anyone who follows the arguments and history.

So, let the scholars fight over the small points, but I for one am thankful to both of these writers for what they bring.

Posted by: Papa Bear at December 31, 2007 2:44 PM

"...or had those Qur'anic imperatives lain dormant until they were revived under Nazi influence?"

"dormant" is one way of putting it.

"in remission" might be more accurate, best describing the xenophobic cancer in/of/from Islam.

Posted by: alexon at December 31, 2007 4:58 PM

And only in remission only because primitive Islam was falling so far behind the Non-islamic world in those 'golden years' that it could no longer bully and conquer with impunity like it had in the past.

Posted by: alexon at December 31, 2007 5:01 PM

Kuntzel writes:

"I show that around 1925 the Jews were an accepted and protected part of public life in Egypt: they had members of parliament, were employed at the royal palace and occupied important positions in the economic and political field."

Bostom replies:

"Kuntzel’s reply (and book) also fail to make clear that the early 20th century period he is lionizing in Egypt was one under British colonial rule during which a short-lived experiment in Western style secularism took place."

Yes, that's quite an omission.

Posted by: alexon at January 1, 2008 4:07 AM