Perhaps we should ask for the return of Muslim occupied Constantinople.

Posted by: diane at February 6, 2008 3:19 PM

I lived for a year right next to the Mezquita in Cordoba and I have to say that architecturally the original Moorish building is considerably more beautiful with its mysterious labyrinth of arches than the ghastly wedding cake monstrosity of a cathedral the Spanish planted in the middle some centuries after it was built. And the Christianity promulgated by Ferdinand and Isabella which led to the Inquisition was no better than Islam at its worst. Both ruthlessly persecuted the Jews and heretics. However, returning to the present,as Robert points out, some quid-pro-quo would be required if Muslims are allowed to pray there again. And it would almost certainly squeeze out the dhimmi Spanish Catholics as Muslims tend to make their presence felt with thinly disguised hostility in any shared praying space(as in many universities and colleges...and also at Amsterdam airport I've noticed). Given the unpleasant past surrounding the monument I'd say demolish it and build something religion free. A park, for God's sake. More gardens. And Cordoba needs some more vegetation.

Posted by: johndoe at February 6, 2008 3:22 PM

I'm asking UNESCO to book my journey to Macca as soon as possible. I've always wanted to see that black rock and that funny cube that houses it.

Posted by: MP at February 6, 2008 3:43 PM

When the first church is established in KSA .

Posted by: interestinconundrum at February 6, 2008 3:47 PM

I would like to be able to openly worship Christ in the formerly Christian nations of North Africa (... or North America, now that I think about it).

Posted by: Concerned Citizen at February 6, 2008 3:48 PM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mpTOjjRkL2o
They are the most whiney, jealous-hearted friggin' people in the world. They see something they covet, then p*ss and moan till they get it. Jerusalem for instance. Well, we know what the Bible says about the sons of Haggar.

Posted by: interestinconundrum at February 6, 2008 3:59 PM

The U.N. has for decades been steadily infiltrated by an Islamintern International. There is no longer a Soviet bloc. There is no longer what might be called a Western bloc, that consisting of the members of NATO, their ranks joined by other advanced democracies. There is not even a Third World bloc. But there is an Arab Muslim bloc that manages to control a still larger Muslim bloc, and that has control, as well, over certain black African delegations, and has had the power to intimidate delegates from Western Europe who have joined in the kangaroo-court atmosphere of exaggerated attention to the quite-imaginary "Israeli atrocities" that have been the subject of 12 out of the last 13 resolutions at the U.N. Committee on Human Rights in Geneva.

It is telling that Muslims in Spain think that they can ignore the decision of the national government of Spain, can ignore what the Vatican, which controls the cathedral, supports, and can act as if both Spain, and the Roman Catholic Church, have to yield to a body that, these Muslims in Spain have been given to understand, like the rest of the U.N., will be subservient to Muslim demands.

In this case they will be proven wrong. But for how long? And for how long will the U.N. spend most of its time discussing, and then denouncing, the "mighty empire of Israel" -- more than a thousand of those mighty empires would fit into the land area controlled by Arab Muslims, who do not in that vast area accord equal rights either to non-Muslims, or to non-Arabs -- and thereby spending far less time on other matters, much more legitimate and pressing, beginning with Darfur and ending with anthropogenic climate change.

Posted by: Hugh at February 6, 2008 4:12 PM

johndoe, how simple you are. The myths of the inquisitions have been debunked. Get with reality, johndoe, your prejudice is ugly.

The reality is that the Spanish Inquisitions organised by the RCs saved millions, not the other way around. When they first started it was a free for all by the local people - the RCs set up proper legal tests for 'guilt'.

You are also ignoring the historical context - Spain had been savaged by Islam for centuries.

You are also ignoring the fact that the Christian religion was the unifying force - religious heresy was civilian treason.

I have simplified the issues here, they are much more involved, and fascinating from an historical viewpoint. There is so much to learn about humanity from history when you can access the facts, not the propaganda. Catch up on the facts of this era and stop spewing forth the anti-Catholic "reformers" propaganda, which the so-called "enlightenment" was happy to continue in their quest to destroy all Christianity.

Posted by: chrisse at February 6, 2008 4:45 PM

Islam seeks restoration of al-Andalus, what else?

Islam's warriors are again embarking on a jihad in pursuit of that aim. It's always a one-way street in Islam.

Now, talking about reciprocity--let's allow Jews to have a small synogogue atop the Temple Mount!

Posted by: John C at February 6, 2008 4:59 PM

Robert remarked - [in response to the Muslim Mansur's claim re Cordoba that"Temples should be open to all believers..."] - 'Fine. Let's see the Divine Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom celebrated in the Hagia Sophia.'

SECONDED! And Jews should be able to visit, whenever they like, in perfect freedom, and pray at, without hindrance or fear, the following locations: the Temple Mount; the site of Joseph's Tomb in Shechem (which Jews should be able to repair); and Rachel's Tomb in Bethlehem; and the Tomb of the Patriarchs in Hebron; and, oh yes, Mount Sinai.

From 1267 to 1967 - SEVEN HUNDRED YEARS - no Jewish pilgrim was permitted by the Muslims to enter the cave of the Tomb of Abraham.

I am sure the Hindus and Sikhs could supply a long, long list of all the sacred places - long seized and desecrated by murderous lying Muslims, and buried under mosques - to which they would like to have access.

When Muslims say something belongs to 'all humanity', they're telling lies. They really mean that they think it belongs to THEM, and THEM alone. If they once get access to Cordoba Cathedral they will, in the end, demand sole ownership and sole control, and they will whinge, and bully, and in the end, use outright violence, to take control.

Dig in your toes, O Archbishop of Cordoba, and do not let yourself be bullied. Benedict XVI - back up your Archbishop, in the Name of Christ. And if UNESCO says you 'must' let the Muslim thugs into the cathedral church in Cordoba, then tell UNESCO you will not; and there's an end to it.

James Parkes describes the behaviour of the invading and occupying Muslims after they had laid claim to most of the Jewish and Christian holy places in the land of Israel, places such as Rachel's Tomb and the Tomb of the Patriarchs:

"Jews and Christians were WHOLLY OR LARGELY EXCLUDED [my emphasis] after their [the shrines'] seizure by the Muslims, while Muslims ALWAYS demanded access to the shrines still left to Jews and Christians"( 'Whose Land?', p. 169).

Just one more clear proof that Islam does not teach the Golden Rule. Instead, for Islam, the rule seems to be: 'what's ours is ours and what's yours is ours also". Thieves. Liars. Bullies. Just like the pirate and sociopath 'prophet' Mohammed.

Keep them out of Cordoba Cathedral. They have no right to enter. They have no right to even one square foot of Spain, which is soaked with the blood and haunted with the ghosts of the victims of the Ummah, both Jewish and Christian, slain by the tens of thousands during 800 years of Muslim invasion, occupation and deliberate, sadistic, demonic ruination.

Posted by: dumbledoresarmy at February 6, 2008 5:04 PM

"Since the cathedral is part of the heritage of humanity, UNESCO should pronounce or present a report, the way it has done with other monuments," Escudero said. According to the Islamic council leader, the shared use of the cathedral in Cordoba for Catholic and Muslim rite "will play an important role in the alliance of civilisations"

"Alliance of civilisations"? Nice touch, don't you think?

Since Islam in so magnanimous, let's start with the Pope addressing a crowd of Catholics gathered around the group pet rock in Mecca. The service should include some wine too.

Johndoe, you said:

Muslims tend to make their presence felt with thinly disguised hostility in any shared praying space.

followed by:

I'd say demolish it and build something religion free. A park, for God's sake. More gardens. And Cordoba needs some more vegetation.

If that's your idea of negotiation, you better start shopping for a burka. Nothing is religion free in Islam... that's the problem.

Posted by: RalphInfidel at February 6, 2008 5:08 PM

UNESCO--butt out! You HAVE no authority to rewrite history; neither does the OIC!

What good did it do the Bamyan Buddhas to be a World Cultural Heritage Site, anyway? How many blue-helmeted divisions does UNESCO command? Zip. Zilch. Nada.

Posted by: John C at February 6, 2008 5:09 PM

Chrisse...I assume you're a Catholic. In fact it's glaringly obvious. How about some detachment and objectivity? But I've noticed that anyone who subscribes to a belief system or organised religion can never take an impartial view of history. I am not prejudiced...just balanced and disidentified. The history of the Catholic church in Spain is not so squeaky clean.And don't get me started on its support of Franco's dictatorship for 40 years.The Catholics decimated the Jewish community during the Inquisition and expelled them from the country, many finding refuge in Holland and even Turkey. Nothing mythical about that. You are justifying a reign of terror in the name of your religion so are hardly in a position to level criticism at Islam.

Posted by: johndoe at February 6, 2008 5:23 PM

DDA made a very succinct and accurate point:

"When Muslims say something belongs to 'all humanity', they're telling lies. They really mean that they think it belongs to THEM, and THEM alone. If they once get access to Cordoba Cathedral they will, in the end, demand sole ownership and sole control, and they will whinge, and bully, and in the end, use outright violence, to take control."

Precisely!

Now that the zombies have opened this Pandora's box, I won't be surprised, nor shocked, when they lay claim to the beautiful city of Palma de Mallorca, and indeed, all of the Balaeric Islands.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palma_de_Mallorca

Read here for more info, and some great pix of this really great city!

Oh, and a word to UNESCO: Bugger off!

Posted by: boneshack at February 6, 2008 5:50 PM

I just love "chrisse"'s plug for murder, torture and burning people alive in the name of Christ.
Well done chrisse, in your quest for the one "true" religion.
Next weeks exciting episode, Christ's support Catholic priests who shag kids. Makes you wonder why he bothered.

Back to the Muslims, they will go on and on and on and on and on, until they get their way. This is because nobody will just stand up and say, no never, not until you give something back.
Who'd have thought that all Hitler had to do to succeed was stain his skin with tea. Strange world isn't it.

Posted by: Ian at February 6, 2008 6:30 PM

Jacqui Smith, the UK Home secretary, recently said that terrorist violence was anti-Islamic. On the contrary, it is adhering to Mohammed's dictates to 'strike terror into the hearts of the unbelievers'
Robert posted not long ago that it was like saying the Spanish Inquisition was anti-Catholic. I would argue that it WAS indeed anti-Catholic in as much it violated the teachings of Christ and the Pope was desecrating his role as Christ's representative on earth. This is the difference between Islam and Christianity.

Posted by: johndoe at February 6, 2008 6:39 PM

I'm a devotee of the gods Larry, Shemp, and Moe. They were among the deities whose idols were destroyed by Mohammed in the Kaaba. I want their idols restored, and their shrine re-opened. So, come on, U.N., force the Saudis to open up.

Posted by: ebonystone at February 6, 2008 6:48 PM

See wikipedia: Vincent of Saragossa

"When the Catholic bishops of Visigothic Iberia succeeded in converting King Reccared (586-601) and his nobles to Trinitarian Christianity they built the cathedral of Cordoba in honor of St Vincent the Deacon. When the Moors came, in 711, the church was razed and its materials incorporated in the Mezquita, the “Great Mosque” of Cordoba."

No quid pro quo is called for,

Posted by: JS at February 6, 2008 8:28 PM

The other thing about the Spanish Inquisition: it was a process of exposing crypto-Muslims present within the society. After over 700 years of brutal Islamic rule, and after finally winning back the land stolen from them, the Spanish rationally had to deal with Muslims and crypto-Muslims among them -- little different than enemy agents who would work against the Riconquista if they could. This doesn't mean the Inquisition was perfect and sinless; nor does it mean it was not rationally justified, under the circumstances.

Posted by: cantor at February 6, 2008 10:55 PM

'All of humanity' means Muslims only.

Because non-Muslims are not considered human. Too easy.

If Israel falls, Al Andaluz is next. The jihad is permanent and relentless...

Posted by: sheik yer'mami at February 6, 2008 11:01 PM

say what you will about Franco, johndoe, but as long as he ruled spain no a single mosque was built.

Posted by: CapitalistGig at February 6, 2008 11:13 PM

You know, most people who post here are strongly against the Islamic Caliphate Movement and their "aggressive tendencies".

But I'm always amazed that when there's a news report that in some way regards the Catholic faith, the anti-Catholic rhetoric just comes out naturally. Of course, when it regards Spain (and I'm of Asturian blood -- where Pelayo began the Reconquista), the usual comments about the Spanish Inquisition are thown out as "facts". Then, of course, you have to make a comment or two regarding pedophile priests.

I never thought the Revisionist "history" that has been taught since the Protestant Reformation about the Catholic Church would be so easy to remember without actually researching the facts. But I guess JOHNDOE and IAN are perfect examples of this.

Lastly, to the point of this article, all I have to say is that the Spanish people need to recover that Reconquista sentiment and courage and realize that there are many who want Al-Andalus to return and those people must be resisted at all costs.

Posted by: GuardianofPeaceandJustice at February 6, 2008 11:40 PM

JOhndoe and Ian, you are a couple of ignorami. Your vague shared memories of childhood readings do not amount to history. JOhndoe shows his ignorance by ascribing the expulsion of Jews and Muslims to Ferdinand and Isabel - it happened, in fact, more than fifty years afterwards, after Muslims had proved unable to live in peace under Christian rule. And for your information, JOhndoe, large numbers of Jews went to... Rome. Rome, the capital of the Pope, where they felt they would have more protection than in Spain. Three of the Five Synagogues (Cinque Scuole) that are the historic heart of the ancient Roman Jewish community are of Spanish origin. As for the rest, kindly forget your imbecilic notion of the Inquisition, inherited from ancient Protestant inventions, and read some Kamen. Then start talking about history: right now, you know absolutely nothing about it, and the legends you were fed have as much to do with it as the tale of Santa Claus.

AS for the rest, UNESCO has no more jurisdiction over Catholic churches than I do. This is pure gesture politics, meant exclusively to go on Muslim newspapers and TV stations around the world and increase their sense of grievance. If even the current Spanish government, which loathes the Catholic Church, will not listen to them, they must know that they are going nowhere.

Posted by: Paolo at February 7, 2008 4:20 AM

It is striking to note the vitriol and rage pouring forth from the Catholics on this thread, disguised as righteous indignation. Also remarkable is the malevolence directed at Protestants. These sentiments leak out when the right button is pushed and all the surface civility of the religious mind dissolves and resorts to personal abuse rather than rational discourse. The above commenters have immediately jumped to the conclusion that I am anti-Catholic. Not at all. And I am not a Protestant. The constant reference to the 'facts' is laughable. Whose 'facts'? Those purveyed by Catholic revisionist historians? This thread has really shown the incipient fascism in some of the commenters here who clearly have an axe to grind and are not open in any way at all to criticism of their faith and a certain barbaric phase in its history. Now who does this remind me of? The hysteria and irrational defensiveness is quite familiar.

Posted by: johndoe at February 7, 2008 4:46 AM

Johndoe: your exercise in insulting without answering (assuming, for instance, that "Catholic historians" must necessarily be "revisionist") shows that you lack the mind to understand history. You have not answered a single point, but you have questioned our motives. Just like a Muslim or a relativist Westerner, you are incapable of dealing with facts, and escape that painful duty by impugning the motives of others. I had only said that you were an ignoramus, which to anyone with the least knowledge of history is obvious (cf. your grotesque misdating of the expulsion of Jews and Muslims from Spain); now I can also say that you are narrow, blind, malevolent, and ignorant not by misfortune but by choice.

Posted by: Paolo at February 7, 2008 4:50 AM

Oh dear, Paolo. The hysteria and abuse flows on. Let's not quibble over dates. We're discussing religious hatred here and the shocking thing is your attempt to whitewash the Inquisition, which was a barbaric and brutal period of Catholic history. To deny that is a sin...and absurdly irrational...no different from Holocaust denial.The first thing any faith should do is recognise and ackowledge its past crimes against humanity (the annihilation of the Cathars are another case in point) and atone for them. This would put into practice Christ's teaching of humility and contrition. As long as you are an apologist for the past savage behaviour of your own faith, then you are in no position to lambast Islam. And I should add that I regard Islam as a threat to our civilisation and nothing less than a totalitarian supremacist ideology disguised as religion. So please don't throw me in with 'Muslims and relativist Westerners'.

Posted by: johndoe at February 7, 2008 5:10 AM

Why, why, why do I do it?

I should really know better.

I should realize, when I hear the noise of self-satisfied ignorance, that there is no point in challenging it.

I should, at this point in my life, have learned the lesson that, when people believe and spread lies and long-exploded fables, it is because they have committed their mediocre egos to those lies. That there is no point in telling them that they are lies: that they will only cling to the lies the more. That they will not even try to debate facts, because this is not about facts. It is about egos.

I should listen to the wisdom of the Master, when He warned us not to cast pearls before swine.

And there I go and do it again. I hear grunting; and I cannot help reacting. And the swine remain swine, and I just have another depressing experience of the self-satisfied vanity of ignorance.

Let Johndoe rootle in the filth of his vanity and ignorance. I really have had enough of his likes.

Posted by: Paolo at February 7, 2008 5:27 AM

In an attempt, probably a vain one, to get this thread back on track, I will throw out this question:

Has anyone asked the Muslims agitating for the right to pray in Christian churches exactly how they plan to deal with the gender segregation their religion requires, in a house of worship in which gender segregation has never been practiced? Will they demand the right to establish "women only" and "men only" sections?

Will Christians coming into the church when Muslims are there be required to sit only in the appropriate sections? WILL non-Muslims be allowed in when Muslims are in there doing their thing? And what about the issue of women covering their heads? Most Catholic women don't do that in Church nowadays, and it's certainly not a rule. Ditto to wearing clothes Muslims might consider "immodest", such as bare legs and/or arms. No biggie among today's Catholics.

And what about all those religious icons in Catholic cathedrals, which are banned in Islam? Particularly the paintings and statues of men recognized as prophets in Islam, such as Abraham, Isaac, and Jesus? Will the Muslims demand the right to cover them all up when they're in there, so as not to offend their eyes?

Am I the only one seeing the horror of the picture I'm painting here?

But I agree; the thing to do is amiably agree to do this for them as long as they make members of other faiths equally welcome to worship in their mosques, then listen to the crickets chirping.

Posted by: angloirishslav at February 7, 2008 6:10 AM

angloirishslav,

I'm afraid your concerns are not the concerns of the ummah. Churches and synagogues, Hindu & Buddhist temples have a natural way of combusting & imploding once the soldiers of Allah get the upper hand.

That's what its all about. Don't waste time with semantics...

Posted by: sheik yer'mami at February 7, 2008 7:08 AM

'I can also say that you are narrow, blind, malevolent and ignorant'

and

'Let Johndoe rootle in the filth of his vanity and ignorance.'

Very Christian sentiments, Paolo. Feel the love!

I received a similar response from a Muslim on another forum. Now I wonder why?

Posted by: johndoe at February 7, 2008 8:19 AM

On the issue of the Inquisition. The issue isn't did it or did it not happen the way it has been portrayed ever since the Reformation. The issue is, has the Church learned and moved on. And the answer is yes. They don't happen today. Catholics and the rest of the Christian world has grown up. And yes, Protestants have blood on their hands as well. The mistakes of the past are just that, in the past. Made by flawed men and embellished by flawed men wanting to vent their own prejudices. One of the big problems with islam is that it remains in the past. Not recognizing that many of the acts carried out in the name of islam were indeed grievous acts of murder and enslavement is why we are where we are today.

johndoe is not incorrect in his original statement. Muslims and Jews were the initial focus of the inquisitions except for the French Inquisition which dealt with the Cathars. But johndoe, to state that you are being fair and objective is erroneous when you state that the anything new pertaining to the Inquisitions are revisionist. Don't forget, most of the information that has been used over the centuries is based on Protestant propaganda. And this "new" information is gleaned from actual Church records from those times. Records that show that it was nowhere near as bloody as many assert, but there still was blood. But johndoe is correct about many Catholics' attitudes towards the Inquistion. We Catholics need to get over the sensitivity we have about the Inquisition. It happened. The leaders of the Church at that time are guilty of it. We need to be aware and acknowledge that. As well as accept that no matter what information is out there, there will always be those who continue to buy the Protestant version of what happened. Catholicism, as a whole, has acknowledge it happened and moved on.

Now about this whole issue of muslims wanting to be able to pray at Mezquita. Who cares what UNESCO says. Since the muslims nations can't seem to abide by UNHRC why should Spain and the Church abide by UNESCO? The answer today and tomorrow should forever be "NO". And not because of past transgressions, of which no one is innocent of, but rather for the reasons stated by Robert. The muslims don't allow Christians and Jews to pray at their former houses of worship, why should we do it for the muslims?

Posted by: Kevin at February 7, 2008 10:45 AM

From 1267 to 1967 - SEVEN HUNDRED YEARS - no Jewish pilgrim was permitted by the Muslims to enter the cave of the Tomb of Abraham. and since the conquest by Muslim forces of Constantinople, no-Christian is allowed to pray in the hagia sofia and in India the tagi mahall is claimed by Muslims as a Muslim tomb when in fact, it was a Hindu temple, and even today. Muslims have the gall to claim that there never was a Jewish presence on the Temple Mount. The one thing Muslim seem to be good at doing is stealing other religions. holly sites and claiming them as their own and then when they get kicked out whining and complaininguntil they get back in, and then trying to take them over again

Posted by: sheepdog at February 7, 2008 11:42 AM

Does anyone here know how to initiate such a petition to UNESCO? If so, can you provide the information?

I will initiate a petition to open the Hagia Sophia to Christians on the same grounds that the Islamic Council is stating.

As for the discussion of the Catholic Church and it's history, I believe Pope John Paul II had made an official apology for sins committed by members of the Church.

It is time to move on and deal with the issue at hand.

Posted by: No dhimmi at February 7, 2008 11:46 AM

"And the Christianity promulgated by Ferdinand and Isabella which led to the Inquisition was no better than Islam at its worst. Both ruthlessly persecuted the Jews and heretics."

Can't we just move on from this? The enemy is Islam, not the Inquisition. I think it ended in 1823 in Spain. If we are waiting for someone or some group to be perfectly pure before they have the right to be heard, then we will be waiting either until Jesus comes again, or we all start praying toward Mecca.

Posted by: Pilcher at February 7, 2008 12:47 PM

The Muslims need to urge Jews to come pray on the Temple Mount as some commenters above suggest. Another problem is that Western governments wittingly overlook the pro-war, Judeophobic agitation by Muslim clerics at Friday prayers on the Temple Mount, the holiest Jewish site.

As to Rachel's Tomb in Bethlehem and the Tomb of the Patriarchs in Hebron, both are under Israeli control but have suffered numerous armed attacks over the years. Rachel's Tomb was under siege at the beginning of the current war. Bear in mind that Rachel's Tomb is not a Muslim holy place. However, up to the mid-19th century, it was controlled by the Ta`amri Bedouin tribe who charged Jews money for coming to pray there. This tribe also used to extort money from Bethlehem Christians. Sir Moses Montefiore worked with the British consul in Jerusalem in the mid-19th century to get the local Ottoman governor to protect the Jewish right to come to the Tomb.

The tomb was off limits to Jews during the period of Jordanian control from 1948 to 1967.

Posted by: Eliyahu at February 7, 2008 6:34 PM

Let the polytheists pray in the Ka'aba, which was their site, first!

And let the Jews and Christians back into Arabia, since they were there before there was an Islam.

What's sauce for the Islamic invader is sauce for the expelled pagans, Zoroastrians, Buddhists, Berbers, Copts, Jews, Hindus, Jains, Confucians, animists, pantheists, etc., etc., etc.

Posted by: profitsbeard at February 7, 2008 9:16 PM