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Cultural Collapse Alert: "Lent fast re-branded as 'Christian Ramadan,'" by Bruno Waterfield in the Telegraph (thanks to all who sent this in):
Dutch Catholics have re-branded the Lent fast as the "Christian Ramadan" in an attempt to appeal to young people who are more likely to know about Islam than Christianity.
Now, why are young people in the Netherlands more likely to know about Islam than Christianity? Think about that for a moment. And then ponder also the fact that Christians who lived under Islamic rule for century after century never, ever succumbed to any temptation to recast their own traditions as pale imitations of Islamic ones. Lent was always and only Lent. Great Lent. The Great Fast. Never "Christian Ramadan."
Ramadan is not a word for "fast." It is a month on the Islamic calendar, which Christians do not use, during which Muslims abstain from food and drink during daylight hours -- a style of fasting unknown to all Christian traditions in any case. Byzantine Christians, both Orthodox and Catholic, traditionally -- and today, among the observant -- abstain during the Great Fast from meat and dairy products, fish with backbones, olive oil, and alcohol, day and night, from the beginning of Lent after Forgiveness Vespers on Cheese Fare Sunday until Pascha, Easter, the Resurrection of Christ. And they do not eat at all until noon, or in some cases sundown.
Roman Catholics traditionally followed a much less strict fast, with no meat or alcohol, and even that since Vatican II has fallen by the wayside. But in any case, these fasts are nothing like the Islamic fast of Ramadan, and there is nothing comparable to them in Islamic tradition. To rename Lent after Muslim practice is not only to demonstrate abject cultural capitulation, but to sow confusion by suggesting that Christian fasting has to do with not eating or drinking from sunup to sundown, which has never been the practice among any Christian sect or group. If that is not the suggestion, since these Dutch Roman Catholics aren't fasting in any case, then their youth will be given the impression that the Muslims are the really observant ones, and the Christians are by comparison lax and indifferent -- an impression that is certain, particularly among youth, to lead to conversions to Islam.
The Catholic charity Vastenaktie, which collects for the Third World across the Netherlands during the Lent period, is concerned that the Christian festival has become less important for the Dutch over the last generation."The image of the Catholic Lent must be polished. The fact that we use a Muslim term is related to the fact that Ramadan is a better-known concept among young people than Lent," said Vastenaktie Director, Martin Van der Kuil.
Three decades ago the Catholic Church was as strict as many Muslims are about Ramadan with a total ban on meat and alcohol during the 40-day Lenten period between Ash Wednesday and Easter.
Most Dutch Catholics now focus on charitable work after the Vatican loosened fasting strictures for all but the first and last days of Lent back in 1967.
Four million Dutch describe themselves as Roman Catholics and 400,000 people attend Mass every week but only a few tens of thousands still mark Lent by fasting, said Mr Van der Kuil
Vastenaktie organisers hope that by linking the festival to Ramadan they can remind Christians who may be less observant than Muslims of the "spirituality and sobriety" of Lent.
They could accomplish this more effectively by recovering and encouraging their own Lenten traditions, which they have utterly discarded.
"The agreements are more striking than the differences. Both for Muslims and Catholic faithful the values of frugality and spirituality play a central role in this tradition," said Mr Van der Kuil.
That may be true, but it is still no warrant for giving the impression that one's older and quite different religious traditions are simply imitations of a quite different (and younger) tradition -- and what's more, one that denies the legitimacy of Christian tradition in any case.
Posted by Robert at February 12, 2008 9:31 AM
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'Ram-It-Down' is more lick it.
Posted by: Shy Guy![[TypeKey Profile Page]](http://www.jihadwatch.org/dhimmiwatch/nav-commenters.gif)
at February 12, 2008 9:34 AM
Shame on you white Dhimmi Christians (catholics + others). We Pakistani Christians are more strong and live under most dangerous conditions but yet do not accept anything islamic. You white so called Christians will become slaves of islam sooner than i thought.
Posted by: Crusader at February 12, 2008 9:47 AM
Skipping lunch is not a fast.
Posted by: GrennBeck at February 12, 2008 10:04 AM
At first glance, this seems like an outrage, but what it highlights is that awareness of Islamic values and traditions has grown in the past few decades, and knowledge of Christian values and traditions has declined. I see this development is a symptom of decay rather than an attempt to conform Christianity to Islam.
For those nominal Christians who admire the devoutness and piety of observant Muslims, the realization that there is period of atonement in Christianity called Lent, can be spiritually alluring to someone who might otherwise become a John Walker Lindh or Adam Gadahn. Making these comparisons can show that Islam has less, and not more to offer than Christianity. Christians declare their faith, pray, go on pilgrimages, give alms, and fast. They're just not forced to.
It is a shrewd, if not desperate, marketing strategy, even if is is factually inaccurate. I would like to ask them however, what constitutes "Christian Jihad"?
at February 12, 2008 10:11 AM
"Most Dutch Catholics now focus on charitable work.."
-- from the article above
What kind of "charitable work"? If it is "charitable work" to help fellow Christians persecuted in Muslim countries, that would be the best kind. But if it is "charitable work" to help "Muslim refugees" (refugees from what? from Islam itself? then why are they still Muslims?)in the Netherlands, this is work that will undo, not only Christianity, but the Western civilizational legacy that does not deserve to come undone, but to be preserved, and strengthened, and a lesson learned and not forgotten quite as rapidly as it has been, over the past century, with the Nazi threat, and the Communist threat, and now the threat, of much greater duration and scope, that Islam presents.
Posted by: Hugh at February 12, 2008 10:14 AM
Might as well name it "Ramitdown"
Posted by: Sounder at February 12, 2008 10:38 AM
"The image of the Catholic Lent must be polished. - from the article
Absurd. And above all, the way to reclaim the identity of anything important isn't to identify it with something else, but to recognize it for what it is, and better yet, actually observe it rather than leaving it as a relic of history.
Posted by: MarisolJW at February 12, 2008 10:46 AM
If you are Catholic and this upsets you - send a forward of the actual newspaper article from the Telegraph to your local Bishop expressing your concern. Even if you don't live in the Netherlands - you are Catholic, or heck even if you are a non-Catholic Christian and observe some form of Lenten observation you might want to make your minsters and preachers aware of this type of, well-intentioned, but mis-informed garbage. It's time for laity to stand up and ask that the Faith be taught in its fullness, completely, without "polishing," "updating," or any other type of "-ing." The best way to help Christians practice Lent is A.) To live it and B.) To actually teach what Lent is all about... with over 2,000 years of Christian writings and great Saints and church documents.. why on earth would you compare Lent to Ramadan? The fast is different, the impetus is dfferent - imitating Jesus.. unless now the Dutch Charity person believes that we should forget about Jesus and imitate Mohammed instead. Insanity and this must be stopped now! I just cut and pasted the original article to those who should know. I encourage you to do the same.
Posted by: Monkeywho at February 12, 2008 10:52 AM
Does Pope Benedict have a say in this?
Posted by: the poetess at February 12, 2008 10:56 AM
Why not Christian Yom Kippur?
Posted by: Dumbo at February 12, 2008 11:02 AM
It would make more sense to call it "Christian Passover". The Last Supper was a Jewish Passover Seder.
at February 12, 2008 11:10 AM
This story perfectly exemplifies why I have concerns about every "harmless" attempt to make Islam something it isn't. Starting at the top with Bush always lauding Islam, to 'Christian' clerics pushing sharia, our surrender is moving quickly. Training kids to be Muslims in our public schools seems to be the norm throughout the once-termed "West."
Social engineers of every type should be viewed with suspicion, always. We're learning it again the hard way, as always.
If you're looking for a silver lining, at some point social progressives are going to have to face the entire monster they've let into the tent thinking it was the nose of a camel.
(Is that one OK?)
Posted by: Beagle at February 12, 2008 11:11 AM
Lent is now "Christian Ramadan". What's next, All Mo's Day? Back in the day when I was in high school(catholic) it seemed as if every day was some Feast of this or that Saint. Are the Dutch Roman Catholics going to rename all of those with a islamic slant? What about Easter? Instead of hiding eggs, gorging on chocolate and going to mass, are we going to start slaughtering rabbits and/or lambs? The Church has enough negative history of its own to be co-opting islam's.
Posted by: Kevin at February 12, 2008 11:23 AM
When it comes to dhimmitude, nobody beats the Dutch.
That's what distinguishes the Dutch from the Danes. We do that to help Americans tell the two countries apart, in case they think that Holland is the capital of Denmark.
at February 12, 2008 11:39 AM
>> Why not Christian Yom Kippur?
>> Posted by: Dumbo at February 12, 2008 11:02 AM
And call fast after a war?
Posted by: Kim Hartveld at February 12, 2008 11:42 AM
"Christian Ramadan" is absolutely ridiculous, absurd and is another step in cultural & religious suicide.
MarisolJW nailed it:
the way to reclaim the identity of anything important isn't to identify it with something else, but to recognize it for what it is, and better yet, actually observe it rather than leaving it as a relic of history.
Lot's of blame to go around, in this case luke warm Catholic teaching by the clergy, poor Catholic formation by parents and it seems no "authentic" Catholic layity group to combat this sort of garbage.
Hopefully the Bishop speaks out against this absurdity.
Posted by: adobe at February 12, 2008 11:52 AM
Poetess:
Pope Benny 16 is TRYING VERY HARD to restore the sacred and re-evangelize what once was Christian Europe. His very selection of a name -- after SAINT BENEDICT who was faced with the first challenge of Christianizing barbarians and pagans --- shows that he is very aware of the role God wants him to play. His decree concerning the right of priests and people to celebrate the Mass of the Ages (Latin/Tridentine) is meant to be another important step to revitalization [you should see the young 20 and 30 year old Catholics at our Latin Mass every Sunday discovering with joy their patrimony). The barque of Peter is as easy to turn as an aircraft carrier. But HE MOST DEFINITELY IS TRYING. With each retirement or death of a Kumbaya Katholic -- progress!
at February 12, 2008 11:52 AM
Shame on you white Dhimmi Christians
You white so called Christians will become slaves of islam sooner than i thought.
I agree with the substance of the remarks on your post regarding the courage and faith of Pakastani Christians. I am not sure why the derogatory emphasis on the members of The Catholic charity Vastenaktie being white was needed. Is that some sort of prejudice fruedian slip???
Posted by: adobe at February 12, 2008 11:59 AM
Thank-you Robert for explaining the BIG differences between the Christian Lent and the Muslim Ramadam. Also Catholics are to abstain from meat on all the Fridays during Lent and Ash Wednesday. It is encouraged of Catholics to keep Friday in a spirit of penance throughout the year to honor the day of Christ's Passion.
Posted by: bigcatgirl13106 at February 12, 2008 12:13 PM
This is disgusting. Where is the Pope? Where are these people's brains at?!!! Ok, I know - their behinds are full up right now and we shouldn't disturb them.
Posted by: R_not at February 12, 2008 12:43 PM
Okay, let's see, how can we make "Christian Ramadan" more like the "real" Ramadan? Maybe angry crowds of CCD "youts" rioting here and there. The Knights of Columbus burning Easter eggs. Priests urging the masses to slit the throats of infidel bunnies. Opus Dei members setting off bombs in restaurants serving burgers on Fridays ...
Posted by: CJ at February 12, 2008 1:00 PM
I am Catholic, and this type of mindless pandering to the death cult of Islam disgusts me.
As an aside, I attended mass this summer where we had a visiting African priest decry to the flock that "Islam is a religion of peace." After mass, I took him to task over this, and he actually admitted he had never read any passages from the Koran. I tried to get him to at least consider the possibility that there was something seriously wrong with Islam, but it was like bouncing bb's against a brick wall.
I know Pope Benedict totally "gets" the threat of Islam, and that is one of the reasons I use this screename. I just wish he could reel in some of the dimmer bulbs operating in the Catholic Church, like these Dutch Catholics, and that African priest I had to listen to sermonizing on the "religion of peace."
Posted by: Paleologos at February 12, 2008 1:56 PM
The so-called Catholics of the Netherlands are a bad joke. Remember, this is the country where the local Dominicans - the Order who had always and everywhere been known for defending dogma - tried to rewrite the Mass so that a layman could consecrate the Body and Blood; this - not any benighted Muslim or Communist hell-hole - was the place where a Papal visit was welcomed by stone-throwing crowds and riots. This is the country that has thrown out Ayaan Hirsi Ali, that has made euthanasia a value, that... Let me just stop here. The Pope is leading a slow change of the Church from the inside, but he is too gentle a creature for the measures that are needed in this desperate time. In 1929 (at the same time, mind, as he signed his peace treaty with Mussolini), Pius XII all but beheaded the French Church because its upper orders were riddled with Fascism. That is the kind of intervention we need now, since even a strategy of letting the old fools die out cannot cope with the fact that anyone whom they have allowed to make a priest, they have made in their own image. Only in Poland, in Italy, in Spain, and in some places in the USA, are there really loyal and combative priests; and no hierarchy anywhere is free of rot. The Pope is being sniped at even from within the Vatican himself. Pray for him and for ourselves.
Posted by: Paolo at February 12, 2008 2:04 PM
And just when you thought the Archbishop of Canterbury had the Dhimmi of the year competition sewn up...
Posted by: Celsius at February 12, 2008 2:06 PM
Gee, if we are depending on mainstream religious leaders to be stalwart allies in the upcoming battle, we are up s___ creek.
at February 12, 2008 2:13 PM
Dutch Catholics have re-branded the Lent fast as the "Christian Ramadan" in an attempt...
To do that, we'll have to revise the New Testament whereby Jesus ordered his Apostles to go to a trade route, shoot a caravener in the back with an arrow, killing him, let another escape, and then rob and kidnap the remaining caravaners, finally ransoming the two. The New Testament revision must go on to describe how the caravaners got alll agitated over the attacks and robberies on their caravans and struck back, which in turn caused Jesus' attackers to feel victimized too. Then Jesus' new army. Then Jesus had the nerve to complain about how the caravaners complained about the rash felony murders that had broken out among Jesus and his early Christians... and that Jesus' army had no choice but to kill most of the belly-aching caravaners, most of them decapitated. Then Jesus and his proto-Christians turned whole sordid affair into a religion celebration.
Make sense? Yes? Hallelujah!
YEEE AHH HOO A LA ALLAH AH HA HA HA * YEE AHH HOO A LA ALLAH INSHALLAH!
From there, 1,385 yrs later, the Dutch Catholics now join in celebrating Jesus as a felony murderer, and Christians birth in blood.
Pope Benedict, after crapping your pants and humiliating yourself trying to shed some light on Islamic history, I hereby order you to get right to work on the scriptural revision of JudeoChristianity specified above.
Thank you, Your Holiness.
Posted by: Alarmed Pig Farmer at February 12, 2008 2:29 PM
Find out more about Ramadan, the "Islamic Yom Kippur"
http://www.ucalgary.ca/~elsegal/Shokel/880909_Islam_Kippur.html
Perhaps soon we will see more missionaries promoting their faiths by preaching "Tet, the Vietnamese Hannukah," "Diwali, the Hindu Dianetics Day" and "Cinco de Mayo, the Baha'i Christmas"
Posted by: Greek Fire at February 12, 2008 3:14 PM
England has a spare, slightly used, Archbishop the Dutch Catholics might want ?
Posted by: M Al-Content at February 12, 2008 3:17 PM
How about Christian "Feast of the Fertility of Spring"?
Posted by: Dumbo at February 12, 2008 3:32 PM
WELL THE DUTCH ARE GOING DOWN THE SAME ROAD AS THAILAND WITHOUT THE BLOODSHED
BANGKOK, Thailand is considering granting partial autonomy to its Muslim-majority southern provinces, which for the past four years have been the scene of a bloody Islamic insurgency, the new interior minister said Tuesday.
More than 2,900 people have been killed since early 2004 in nearly daily drive-by shootings and bombings in the three provinces of Pattani, Yala and Narathiwat, the only ones with Muslim majorities in Buddhist-dominated Thailand.
A recent escalation in violence presents a major challenge to Thailand's new government, which took office last week. Military and political measures
imposed by previous governments had little success in curbing the violence.
While conceding that some degree of self-rule in the south "is a possibility," Interior Minister Chalerm Yoobambrung said independence for the region was out of the question.
"Thailand is one state that can't be divided, but we must find a way to make the situation better," he said. "We can't sit still and wait to be killed."
Prime Minister Samak Sundaravej said autonomy was a "delicate issue."
"We want to hear from senior officials, including military officers, on the situation in the region before we come up with any policy," said Samak, who is also defense minister. "Chalerm thinks it's a good idea so he proposed it but it may be dangerous ... it might get out of hand."
Violence has surged this year after a lull in the second half of 2007.
Srisompob Jitpiromsri, a political scientist at Prince of Songkhla University in Pattani, said 55 people were killed and 100 injured in January, compared to 27 people killed and 37 injured in December.
Chalerm said intelligence suggested the militants are planning to expand their violent campaign to southern Thailand's tourist and commercial hub, Hat Yai, in Songkhla province. In April 2005, two people were killed by a bomb at Hat Yai International Airport.
He also said that nightclubs and other entertainment venues in the region are particularly at risk because insurgents view them as an affront to Islamic values.
In the latest violence, a Muslim district chief and his son were killed in a drive-by shooting Tuesday in Narathiwat province's Rangae district.
Southern Muslims have long complained of being treated as second-class citizens. Two successive Thai governments have failed to quell the insurgency despite the presence of 40,000 troops and police officers.
Southern Muslims have long complained of being treated as second-class citizens
HOW CAN THEY BE TREATED OTHERWISE WHEN THEY BEHAVE LIKE BARBARIANS
Warning graphic
http://illustratedpig.blogspot.com/2008/02/here-comes-da-crunch.html
Posted by: shiva at February 12, 2008 3:38 PM
'he is too gentle a creature for the measures that are needed in this desperate time.'
You mean lily-livered and compromised.
Posted by: johndoe at February 12, 2008 3:39 PM
This is absolutely ridiculous. I hope some authority within the Catholic Church gives these people the theological spanking they deserve.
Posted by: s at February 12, 2008 4:23 PM
I don't know. Perhaps it is a good idea to call Lent Ramadan. I think connecting to the young generation is always a plus. But why stop there? Why not call churches mosques? And Jesus Issa? And just to keep current, they can call Jews pigs and monkeys. Really, there are many ways the Church in the Netherlands can become relevant again.
Posted by: Seymour Paine at February 12, 2008 4:25 PM
If only the Roman Catholic Church had a position that placed a single person in an office with the authority to control this sort of errant nonsense...
Posted by: MP at February 12, 2008 4:51 PM
Interesting, seems most people deny the violent origin, violent history, and violent teachings.
Then Christian archbishops start assuming Sharia will be implemented in western societies, cartoonists are considered villains while rioters are considered victims.
Now renaming lent Christian Ramadan?
I am not Catholic, but have I stepped into Bizarro world?
Posted by: sh217 at February 12, 2008 5:07 PM
Shame on you white Dhimmi Christians (catholics + others). We Pakistani Christians are more strong and live under most dangerous conditions but yet do not accept anything islamic. You white so called Christians will become slaves of islam sooner than i thought.
Posted by: Crusader
Don't judge all "white Christians" by that bunch. A whole lot of us are locked and loaded.
I know that the Church grows stronger under persecution, so I am sure you are committed, but there are those of us who will never submit. BTW, persecution is beginning in the West. It is just faint now, but will get louder as the days pass. The internet is full of Christ haters.
at February 12, 2008 5:23 PM
Ummmmmmmmmm,Is "dhimmi" another word for DUMMY!
I find this insulting &I'm not even Christian(or Moslem,for that matter)
kittyBootz
Posted by: KittyBootz at February 12, 2008 5:30 PM
Test
Posted by: RalphInfidel at February 12, 2008 5:36 PM
These were hilarious, and I am still laughing:
"Perhaps soon we will see more missionaries promoting their faiths by preaching "Tet, the Vietnamese Hannukah," "Diwali, the Hindu Dianetics Day" and "Cinco de Mayo, the Baha'i Christmas""
"Perhaps it is a good idea to call Lent Ramadan. I think connecting to the young generation is always a plus. But why stop there? Why not call churches mosques? And Jesus Issa? And just to keep current, they can call Jews pigs and monkeys."
Right on; that's the perfect way to deal with newspeak.
---
Crusader, on your comment, interestinconundrum is on the money.
There are millions of American Christians that are well-armed, often with past military training, and serious about defending themselves and their rights (especially to religion) and their culture and their children. Lots are white, although there's probably a fair number of Black and Hispanic in this camp also.
These also happen to be the people most of the military comes from.
If you've ever glanced at Islamic history, you'll see that whom the military sides with matters. Lots.
Posted by: hope_and_justice at February 12, 2008 6:02 PM
'Ram-It-Down'
Posted by: Shy Guy
Very Clever!!
__________________________________________________
"Christian Ramadan"
Now there's a contradiction in terms if ever I heard one. Gasp!
The Pope needs to quit with the jokes, as this is serious stuff. Christian Ramadan - very funny!
at February 12, 2008 8:50 PM
Another link in the long chain of Dutch apostasy:
http://guardduty.wordpress.com/2007/08/14/theme-the-dutch-experiment/
at February 12, 2008 9:18 PM
Kim Hartveld,
Why not Christian Yom Kippur?
Your reply: And name a fast after a war?
Please tell me that you know a little bit more about Yom Kippur and the war which started on that day in 1973?
Yom Kippur is the Day of Atonement, the holiest day in the Jewish calendar, a day which is often observed with fastng and repentance for past sins.
The Arab neighbours of Israel thought it would be a good day to attack because the people of Israel would be completely unprepared.
I'm not Jewish so perhaps Shy Guy or any other Jewish posters could correct any information above that isn't right. But I have to say, Kim, I'm shocked - shocked, I tell you - at the level of ignorance you have displayed here.
Or was it sarcasm that went completely over my head?
Posted by: toothy at February 12, 2008 9:51 PM
Toothy
the sarcasm was way over your head. Lighten up!
at February 12, 2008 10:55 PM
Maybe to reciprocate the Dutch Muslims may care to move Ramadan to align with the Christian Calendar.
Posted by: payingattention at February 13, 2008 2:37 AM
Does Pope Benedict have a say in this?
Posted by: the poetess
Pope Benedict says:
Do Christian church goers have anything to say about the persecution of their kind throughout the world at the hands of the Islamists?
Christian church goers say:
Posted by: Briars at February 13, 2008 7:35 AM
Wots goin on ?
The Muslims Lent us Ramadan - how noble and kind of them.
Next thing you know the will give us Sharia - for free !!!!
Followed up by Dhimmification, but we have to pay Jizya for that.
My admiration and gratitude for "the Religion Of Peace has just increased exponentially in line with my disgust for yet another dhimmified hypocrital traiterous "priest"
at February 13, 2008 9:09 AM
Dutch Roman Catholics - that's an oxymoron. Are there any Catholics left in that country?
Posted by: Lepanto at February 13, 2008 10:23 AM
>> But I have to say, Kim, I'm shocked - shocked, I tell you -
>> Posted by: toothy at February 12, 2008 9:51 PM
I can see that you're no stranger to sarcasm either, toothy.
It's like hope_and_justice said, sometimes you need to fight nonsense with nonsense.
at February 13, 2008 10:59 AM
truly a sad state of affairs
Posted by: THE-ALLIES-SHALL-WIN at February 13, 2008 11:35 AM
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