Does the Koran say that Jacob (aka "Israel") was a Muslim, too? I thought that the branch in the family tree was between Isaac and Ishmael, Abraham's sons.

Posted by: CTYankee at February 14, 2008 2:35 PM

I thought we were all born muslim but simply got led astray.

Hence the term revert for anyone who converts to islam.

Posted by: Celsius at February 14, 2008 2:51 PM

they have to rip off other people's historical rootss and destroy their monuments out of vanity and hate. This is why I really hate those people.

Posted by: Dumbo at February 14, 2008 2:52 PM

CTYankee--

Islam does name Isaac (Ishaq, in Arabic) among its prophets. But it certainly is interesting that such trouble was taken to marginalize Isaac in favor of Ishmael, and yet Islam still depends on Isaac's offspring for most of the figures named as prophets and messengers.

I'm sure some apologists might assert that Allah was simply saving the best for last by bringing Muhammad out of the lineage of Ishmael (as Muhammad claimed), but to my eye, the matter of Ishmael seems to be aimed at establishing Muhammad's credentials as part of the prophetic line, as was the case with the stories of Hud and Noah that Robert recently discussed in the Qur'an blog.

Posted by: MarisolJW at February 14, 2008 2:53 PM

Obviously, it's Jewish Israelis who are doing all this tomb desecrating. They're ticked off at Joseph for being such a good Muslim.

Posted by: Karl Pov at February 14, 2008 3:03 PM

If Joseph was supposedly a holy Muslim, why are the "Palestinian" koranimals desecrating his tomb?

Posted by: US_infidel at February 14, 2008 3:25 PM

Mr. US_infidel-
Be respectful of this great faith:
it's quranimals, not koranimals!

Posted by: Dumbo at February 14, 2008 3:37 PM

Wanted 'to know who was behind the fire'.

It was muslims you moron. The muslims didn't get the memo that you were going to 'spin' a new lie and say Joseph was a muslim.

So the muslims were trying to destroy something Jewish. The same Jewish guy that saved the Egyptian empire. Go figure.

Posted by: alaskan1000 at February 14, 2008 4:01 PM

Some images of what happened in Nablus, in 2000.

http://members.dodo.com.au/~wtt626/Desecration.html#The_Tomb_of_Joseph_-_Nablus

Posted by: Ezekiel2012 at February 14, 2008 4:06 PM

This theological supremacism is not merely piracy of a Moses here, a Joseph there, a Jesus over there: it's part of the overall latrociny of Israel itself in the sense of the comprehensive theologoumena and mythologoumena of a community of People Chosen by the true God to be the bearers of His soteriological word and plan for Mankind and the Earth. In a sense, Christianity also appropriated Israel; but Christianity's appropriation was more of an organic sublimation (or progressive "differentiation" in Voegelin's terms), while Islam's was grand larceny of the whole house, not just the silverware and paintings in it. (Of course, the joke is on Muslims, since they haven't really acquired anything real in their attempts at theft; it's all in their heads.)

Posted by: cantor at February 14, 2008 5:19 PM

The Christians believed they superceded Judaism and treated the Jews badly for a long time but at least they never said Abraham, Isaac or Jacob were Christians and even admitted the original Christians started out as Jews, unlike pagan caravan raider and slaver Muhammed (Phuw) who seems to think ripping off other people's ancestors is a-ok. I once asked a Muslim about that, long before 9/11, and he said since Abraham prayed by touching his head to the ground, he was a Muslim. Figure that one out??!!

Posted by: Dumbo at February 14, 2008 5:58 PM

He said the Palestinian Authority, fearing embarrassment, immediately formed a joint committee from the PA's Force 17, Preventative Security Services and Palestinian intelligence, to find out who was behind the fire.

Foregone conclusion: It was the Jooooooozzz!

Posted by: special_guest at February 14, 2008 6:00 PM

Muslims are famous for rewriting history. All a Muslim needs to do to make something factual is to simply put it in writing; and then suddenly, miraculously - it becomes TRUTH - followed by a sprinkling of 'fairy dust' for good measure.

Posted by: champ at February 14, 2008 6:56 PM

Champ,

Exactly. Just like our mutual 'friend' kept repeating and repeating and repeating until he was blue in the face.

"It's in the Qur'an! It must be true!"

Geesh, they can't even steal a mediocre tale without dorking it up.

Posted by: boneshack at February 14, 2008 8:02 PM

For those keeping score, I was a bit excessive in the wording of my last post when I wrote that "it's part of the overall latrociny of Israel itself in the sense of the comprehensive theologoumena and mythologoumena of [Israel]..."

My phrase implies that Islam stole Israel lock, stock and barrel, whereas what it did to a great extent was alter and pervert a good deal of that theologoumena and mythologoumena + add in lots of extraneous weird stuff from parallel traditions (including heretical and Gnostic ideas).

Nevertheless, I stand by my thesis that Islam was conceived to be a "new Israel" or more accurately "the true Israel" unperverted by those dastardly Jews.

Posted by: cantor at February 14, 2008 8:24 PM

Scrooge McDuck, Beethoven, and Rachel Ray are also muslims.

Posted by: MP at February 14, 2008 8:53 PM

Boneshack,

I know - he has got to be THE single most frustrating poster I've ever encountered on this forum - and so obtuse. I don't know why I bother writing him (guess I'm a softie for his sweet talk).

No sign of him today, he must be busy burning Valentine's Day cards with his buddies.

Posted by: champ at February 14, 2008 8:54 PM

Champ,

Probably so. Rioting like rest in the streets of Bradford against that evil Saint Valentine (d. circa 269 AD).

You know, that same evil bastard who was part of the conquest of Cordoba:

This is not just an Arabian Peninsula thing, either. Last year in Malaysia, a government official, Muhammad Ramli Nuh, declared, according to the Bernama News Agency, that “celebrating the Day could be regarded as recognizing the enemies of Islam because Valentine or Valentinus took part in planning and attacking Cordoba, once a well-known centre of Islam in Spain, causing its downfall.” Actually, St. Valentine was a third-century Christian martyr in the Roman Empire, but give Muhammad Ramli Nuh points for imagination.

And they (Muslims) expect us to believe their garbage as "credible", "true", "immutable", "divine", "perfect", ad nauseum.

You can put lipstick on a pig, but it's still a pig!

Posted by: boneshack at February 14, 2008 9:15 PM

Sorry, sorry, sorry!!!

I know, that last comment was more appropriate to anther thread currently in play at JW.

But, hey, we're all interconnected here, right?

Posted by: boneshack at February 14, 2008 9:20 PM

Destroyers. Just like their god and their prophet.

Posted by: interestinconundrum at February 14, 2008 9:33 PM

Another Biblical figure stolen by the "religion" of thieves. It's amazing that these goofballs just don't call the Bible an Islamaniac book-it would be faster to steal all the figures in it with this method.

Posted by: ISLAMSFORLOSERS at February 14, 2008 9:36 PM

ISLAMSFORLOSERS....
"It's amazing that these goofballs just don't call the Bible an Islamaniac book-it would be faster to steal all the figures in it with this method."

They bow down and worship the 'Father of lies' every day, it would not do, to 'appropriate' a book filled with truth.

It was probably a 'good' thing that 'Chief Pirate' decided to write his own scripture.

A clear demarcation exists.

Posted by: Ezekiel2012 at February 14, 2008 10:49 PM

Identity theft, identity fraud.

It starts with claiming - falsely - that 'allah' is the same as YHWH. They steal YHWH's good name.

Then Muslims claim - falsely - that everybody of any significance in the Hebrew scriptures was 'really' a Muslim. So they steal the prophets.

Then Muslims claim that New Testament personages - John the Baptist, and Mary, and Jesus - were 'really' Muslims. More stealing.

Muslims claim that Abraham offered Ishmael, not Isaac - and this is made up out of whole cloth.

(Not coincidentally, this claim is a Big Lie aimed directly at one of the core elements of Israelite, of Jewish, identity. It is meant as a spear in the hearts of the Jews).

Muslims claim, in flat defiance of massive consensus by non-Muslim historians, that Jesus/ Yeshua of Nazareth was not executed on a cross, by the Romans; that someone else 'must' have been killed instead. (In this, they are choosing to affirm late, and bizarre, gnostic fantasies, because those fantasies not coincidentally, if believed, undermine the core confession of the Christian faith).

Since the evidence of the TANAKH and of Christian scripture is that Jewish and Christian theology and morality are and always have been diametrically different from Muslim theology and morality (and that therefore it is unimaginable for any believing Christian to say 'Jesus was a Muslim', or for an observant Jew to say 'Moses was a Muslim'), Muslims turn around and declare, lying till they're black in the face, that the TANAKH and the Christian scriptures have been altered by Jews and Christians, from the 'pure' Muslim-compatible originals that they 'must' originally have been...

Muslims obstinately ignore the awkward fact that the documentary and archaeological evidence is that the canonical Jewish and Christian scriptures, at their first discernible appearance in the historic record (over 1000 years prior to Islam, in the case of the Jews; 500 years prior to Islam, in the case of the Christians) said then, exactly what they say now.

Given the massive identity fraud that Islam perpetrates against Jews, and against Christians, I am not in the least surprised that Muslims, all over the non-Muslim world, are continually being caught engaging in every imaginable form of identity theft, such as, for example, passport theft and fakery. It's merely their theology playing itself out in everyday life.

Posted by: dumbledoresarmy at February 14, 2008 11:01 PM

Boneshack,

"And Muslims expect us to believe their garbage as "credible", "true", "immutable", "divine", "perfect", ad nauseum.

You can put lipstick on a pig, but it's still a pig!"

Lipstick on a pig - now THAT is funny - and it's the perfect picture to describe what they're trying to do by dressing up Islam, so I know exactly what you mean. I read another comparison you made one time where they try to put perfume on poo (or something like that), it's the same kind of analogy.

Posted by: champ at February 14, 2008 11:18 PM

" . . . Prime Minister Ehud Olmert announced last week he would ask Israel's Defense Ministry to work with the PA to reconstruct and restore the tomb, parts of which were destroyed in 2000 by Palestinians, including known PA security officers.... "

Ehud Olmert is such a Schmuck! Who else would ask the destroyers of "Judaism's third-holiest site" to help rebuild it.

The tomb never should have been lefty in Arab hands--as neither should teh territory upon it stands. But what can you do with a Schmuck?

Posted by: unicorns62000 at February 14, 2008 11:22 PM

post scriptum -

I followed the link and read the whole story; well worth doing, though for best effect one must, every time one encounters the word 'palestinian', mentally substitute the phrase "'Palestinian' Arab Muslim'.

The behaviour of the 'Palestinian' Arab Muslims toward any Jews attempting to visit Joseph's Tomb, from the moment the so-called 'Oslo Accords' allowed them [the Muslims] to feel dominant again in that particular district (Shechem, alias 'Nablus'), has been nothing short of disgusting.

For example:

"Following U.S.-mediated peace talks at Camp David in September 2000, Arafat returned to the West Bank and initiated his intifada. During one bloody week in October 2000, Fatah gunmen attacked the tomb repeatedly, killing two [Jews] and injuring dozens, prompting Barak to order a complete evacuation of Judaism's third holiest site on Oct. 6."

Observe? FATAH gunmen, gunning down peaceful Jewish pilgrims at Joseph's Tomb, only eight years ago; yet it's Fatah, now led by so-called 'moderate' Mahmoud Abbas, that's supposed to be 'less aggressive'.

This business of Joseph's Tomb is yet another case of the aggressive application of the core Islamic principle: 'what's mine is mine and what's yours is mine also'.

Israel - take back Shechem. It's yours, not theirs. It was always and forever, yours. And kick the lying, bullying, murdering, thieving bastards out.

Posted by: dumbledoresarmy at February 14, 2008 11:31 PM

DDA,

As I've said many times before, your comprehension and analyses on all of these threads are perfect.

Identity theft, identity fraud.

It starts with claiming - falsely - that 'allah' is the same as YHWH. They steal YHWH's good name.

That is Islam at its rotten core. It's all down hill from there.

Thanks for all the great work you do!

Posted by: boneshack at February 15, 2008 12:25 AM

These Islamic theives really piss me off.

They are so insecure in their beliefs that they have to seek security by stealing the beliefs of others to prop-up their filthy, lying, stealing dogma.

Personally, if I was a Christian/Jew and I found out that Joseph was really a Muslim I would become an atheist.

Imitation is supposedly the best compliment, but not in this case.

Posted by: ericthekuffar at February 15, 2008 5:56 AM

Did Muslims show any interest in Joseph's Tomb before the founding of the state of Israel? Ever?

Posted by: pst314 at February 15, 2008 11:25 AM

I don't Noah about this one...

Posted by: Sneakyzionistcrusader at February 15, 2008 1:03 PM

The joke's on the Palestinians. Back in Joseph's day, it was customary to entomb the body for a year, then to open the tomb and place the bones in an ostuary, which was then buried elsewhere.

Posted by: Abscedere at February 16, 2008 3:46 PM

Islam: we stole you religion fair and square.

Posted by: profitsbeard at February 17, 2008 1:57 AM