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"Perhaps these women should not be choosing medicine as a career if they feel unable to abide by the guidelines that everyone else has to follow."
Indeed. Especially when lives and health are at risk. An update on this story. "Muslim medics in Alder Hey stand-off," by Caroline Innes for the Liverpool Echo (thanks to WriterMom):
HEALTH officials are having crisis talks with Muslim medical staff who have objected to hospital hygiene rules because of religious beliefs.
Women students at Liverpool’s Alder Hey children’s hospital have raised objections to removing their arm coverings in theatre and to rolling up their sleeves when washing their hands because it is regarded as immodest.
Minutes of a clinical academics’ meeting at Liverpool University revealed that female Muslim students at Alder Hey children’s hospital had objected to rolling up their sleeves to wear gowns.
Similar concerns have been raised at Leicester University, and Sheffield University also reported a case of a Muslim medic who refused to “scrub” as this left her forearms exposed.
Some students have said that they would prefer to quit the course rather than expose their arms, but hygiene experts said no exceptions should be made on religious grounds.
A Royal Liverpool hospital spokesman said they had experienced issues of Muslim staff not sanitising their forearms with alcohol gel although this had now been addressed.
Dr Steve Ryan, medical director at Alder Hey said that while the “bare below the elbows” dress code is a matter of patient safety, the trust would work with Muslim students to find a solution.
He said: “We specify bare below elbows, no wrist watches, nail varnish or false nails in clinical areas."
“Good hand hygiene is one of the most important and simplest actions we can take to prevent healthcare associated infections.
“A number of female Muslim students had approached the University of Liverpool to ask if we would provide facilities for them to change their outerwear and Hijab for theatre scrubs.
“We were pleased to accommodate this request and these facilities have now been incorporated.”
Dr Charles Tannock, a Conservative MEP and former hospital consultant, said: “These students are being trained using taxpayers’ money and they have a duty of care to their patients not to put their health at risk.
“Perhaps these women should not be choosing medicine as a career if they feel unable to abide by the guidelines everyone else has to follow.”
But the Islamic Medical Association insisted that covering all the body in public, except the face and hands, was a basic tenet of Islam.
It said: “No practising Muslim woman – doctor, medical student, nurse or patient – should be forced to bare her arms below the elbow.”
New rules for doctors
NEW Department of Health guidance introduced this month stipulates all doctors must be “bare below the elbow”.
The measure is deemed necessary to stop the spread of infections such as MRSA and Clostridium difficile (C.difficile), which have claimed the lives of hundreds.
Posted by Marisol at February 26, 2008 11:07 AM
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"Some students have said that they would prefer to quit the course rather than expose their arms, but hygiene experts said no exceptions should be made on religious grounds."
So let them quit.
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at February 26, 2008 11:19 AM
“We were pleased to accommodate this request and these facilities have now been incorporated.”
Good Dhimmi
at February 26, 2008 11:31 AM
Primitive superstitions vs. public health.
Is this why health care in Islamic countries lags behind the rest of the world?
Posted by: tanstaafl at February 26, 2008 11:33 AM
"But the Islamic Medical Association insisted that covering all the body in public, except the face and hands, was a basic tenet of Islam.
It said: “No practising Muslim woman – doctor, medical student, nurse or patient – should be forced to bare her arms below the elbow.”
Again with the back and forth on this. So its not a personal choice but a requirement of Islam.
at February 26, 2008 11:38 AM
"A Royal Liverpool hospital spokesman said they had experienced issues of Muslim staff not sanitising their forearms with alcohol gel although this had now been addressed."
The 'forearm' has been redefined; it is now located BELOW the wrist. Please amend your medical texts.
"Alcohol"? Alcohol?!!! ;)
Posted by: DaninVan at February 26, 2008 12:02 PM
WOW - MAYBE THEY SHOULD ASK ROBERTS ADVICE !!
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/7264903.stm
Turkey in radical revision of Islamic texts
By Robert Piggott
Religious affairs correspondent, BBC News
The scholars say they are returning to the original values of Islam
Turkey is preparing to publish a document that represents a revolutionary reinterpretation of Islam - and a controversial and radical modernisation of the religion.
The country's powerful Department of Religious Affairs has commissioned a team of theologians at Ankara University to carry out a fundamental revision of the Hadith, the second most sacred text in Islam after the Koran.
The Hadith is a collection of thousands of sayings reputed to come from the Prophet Muhammad.
As such, it is the principal guide for Muslims in interpreting the Koran and the source of the vast majority of Islamic law, or Sharia.
This is kind of akin to the Christian Reformation. Not exactly the same, but... it's changing the theological foundations of [the] religion
Fadi Hakura,
Turkey expert, Chatham House
But the Turkish state has come to see the Hadith as having an often negative influence on a society it is in a hurry to modernise, and believes it responsible for obscuring the original values of Islam.
It says that a significant number of the sayings were never uttered by Muhammad, and even some that were need now to be reinterpreted.
'Reformation'
Commentators say the very theology of Islam is being reinterpreted in order to effect a radical renewal of the religion.
Its supporters say the spirit of logic and reason inherent in Islam at its foundation 1,400 years ago are being rediscovered. Some believe it could represent the beginning of a reformation in the religion.
Some messages ban women from travelling without their husband's permission... But this isn't a religious ban. It came about because it simply wasn't safe for a woman to travel alone
Prof Mehmet Gormez,
Hadith expert,
Department of Religious Affairs
Turkish officials have been reticent about the revision of the Hadith until now, aware of the controversy it is likely to cause among traditionalist Muslims, but they have spoken to the BBC about the project, and their ambitious aims for it.
The forensic examination of the Hadiths has taken place in Ankara University's School of Theology.
An adviser to the project, Felix Koerner, says some of the sayings - also known individually as "hadiths" - can be shown to have been invented hundreds of years after the Prophet Muhammad died, to serve the purposes of contemporary society.
"Unfortunately you can even justify through alleged hadiths, the Muslim - or pseudo-Muslim - practice of female genital mutilation," he says.
"You can find messages which say 'that is what the Prophet ordered us to do'. But you can show historically how they came into being, as influences from other cultures, that were then projected onto Islamic tradition."
The argument is that Islamic tradition has been gradually hijacked by various - often conservative - cultures, seeking to use the religion for various forms of social control.
Leaders of the Hadith project say successive generations have embellished the text, attributing their political aims to the Prophet Muhammad himself.
Revolutionary
Turkey is intent on sweeping away that "cultural baggage" and returning to a form of Islam it claims accords with its original values and those of the Prophet.
Women are re-examining their portrayal in the scriptures
But this is where the revolutionary nature of the work becomes apparent. Even some sayings accepted as being genuinely spoken by Muhammad have been altered and reinterpreted.
Prof Mehmet Gormez, a senior official in the Department of Religious Affairs and an expert on the Hadith, gives a telling example.
"There are some messages that ban women from travelling for three days or more without their husband's permission and they are genuine.
"But this isn't a religious ban. It came about because in the Prophet's time it simply wasn't safe for a woman to travel alone like that. But as time has passed, people have made permanent what was only supposed to be a temporary ban for safety reasons."
The project justifies such bold interference in the 1,400-year-old content of the Hadith by rigorous academic research.
Prof Gormez points out that in another speech, the Prophet said "he longed for the day when a woman might travel long distances alone".
So, he argues, it is clear what the Prophet's goal was.
Original spirit
Yet, until now, the ban has remained in the text, and helps to restrict the free movement of some Muslim women to this day.
There's also violence against women within families, including sexual harassment... This does not exist in Islam... we have to explain that to them
Hulya Koc, a "vaize"
As part of its aggressive programme of renewal, Turkey has given theological training to 450 women, and appointed them as senior imams called "vaizes".
They have been given the task of explaining the original spirit of Islam to remote communities in Turkey's vast interior.
One of the women, Hulya Koc, looked out over a sea of headscarves at a town meeting in central Turkey and told the women of the equality, justice and human rights guaranteed by an accurate interpretation of the Koran - one guided and confirmed by the revised Hadith.
She says that, at the moment, Islam is being widely used to justify the violent suppression of women.
"There are honour killings," she explains.
"We hear that some women are being killed when they marry the wrong person or run away with someone they love.
"There's also violence against women within families, including sexual harassment by uncles and others. This does not exist in Islam... we have to explain that to them."
'New Islam'
According to Fadi Hakura, an expert on Turkey from Chatham House in London, Turkey is doing nothing less than recreating Islam - changing it from a religion whose rules must be obeyed, to one designed to serve the needs of people in a modern secular democracy.
He says that to achieve it, the state is fashioning a new Islam.
"This is kind of akin to the Christian Reformation," he says.
"Not exactly the same, but if you think, it's changing the theological foundations of [the] religion. "
Fadi Hakura believes that until now secularist Turkey has been intent on creating a new politics for Islam.
Now, he says, "they are trying to fashion a new Islam."
Significantly, the "Ankara School" of theologians working on the new Hadith have been using Western critical techniques and philosophy.
They have also taken an even bolder step - rejecting a long-established rule of Muslim scholars that later (and often more conservative) texts override earlier ones.
"You have to see them as a whole," says Fadi Hakura.
"You can't say, for example, that the verses of violence override the verses of peace. This is used a lot in the Middle East, this kind of ideology.
"I cannot impress enough how fundamental [this change] is."
at February 26, 2008 12:22 PM
All I hear is offending Muslims about 1.45 billion of them. Well I am part of the 4.55 billion free peoples who is offended by imposing your stupid values on us. Also I am very offended that your stupid Koran classifies me as infidel and a low life. Well you can shove it.
Posted by: savsiv at February 26, 2008 12:35 PM
"Some students have said that they would prefer to quit the course rather than expose their arms."
See, this is really easy to resolve. Either study "medicine" in a Moslem country such as Egypt, Iran, or Afghanistan or forget about practicing medicine altogether.
If you want to jeopardize your patient's health by following your own superstitions, you can transfer to a "university" (and I use that term loosely) in a Moslem country and learn how to prescribe camel piss.
On the other hand, if you want to take advantage of modern medical training in the West, you have to submit to all of its rules and procedures.
Posted by: StephenDvd at February 26, 2008 1:05 PM
"Some students have said that they would prefer to quit the course rather than expose their arms."
See, this is really easy to resolve. Either study "medicine" in a Moslem country such as Egypt, Iran, or Afghanistan or forget about practicing medicine altogether.
If you want to jeopardize your patient's health by following your own superstitions, you can transfer to a "university" (and I use that term loosely) in a Moslem country and learn how to prescribe camel piss.
On the other hand, if you want to take advantage of modern medical training in the West, you have to submit to all of its rules and procedures.
Posted by: StephenDvd at February 26, 2008 1:05 PM
Gee, don't quit,
We will be glad to die from your dirt in the name of Allah.
at February 26, 2008 1:15 PM
Quit or get your medical training in the Islamic cesspool of your choice. It is that simple.
No wonder Yusuf al Qaradawi wanted to come to the UK for medical treatment.
Posted by: awake at February 26, 2008 1:20 PM
“A number of female Muslim students had approached the University of Liverpool to ask if we would provide facilities for them to change their outerwear and Hijab for theatre scrubs.
“We were pleased to accommodate this request and these facilities have now been incorporated.”
First the Hijab, now this.
And these are "educated" muslims !
at February 26, 2008 1:20 PM
Recently, the New York Times had an article about US universities that are operating campuses in one of the Gulf emirates. One of these is Cornell University, which operates a branch of its medical school there. Wonder if Cornell has run into this issue with its female students?
Posted by: jarenders at February 26, 2008 1:25 PM
Churchhill,
I would not get your hopes up it is probably a sop to the west. Remember these people LIE with the blessings of Allah.
Posted by: ericthekuffar at February 26, 2008 1:26 PM
Apologies for a capitalization error in the headline.
Just noticed and fixed it.
Posted by: MarisolJW at February 26, 2008 1:35 PM
The tipping point on this subject is moving closer every day. I can feel it in the English chill. This could well be the first casualty of a Government, that has lost its self righteous and moralistic authority to govern, in a relatively short period of time. They are now utterly despised the length and breadth of our Country.
The vast majority of the British press have now abandoned the previous demands of an absurd governmental doctrine, and now attack Islam with the gory abandonment of a rabid pit Bull.
Hell, even Guardian readers have lost the will to be Liberal with Islam anymore - just read their comments pages when Islamic sensibilities are threatened.
Their politically correct readers are not - well - politically correct anymore.
Muslims in Britain have never played with anything other than an appeasing and all accommodating leadership. - Their rude awakening could be closing in, far sooner than we ever could have believed.
If Red Ken fall in Mays London Mayoral elections, a thought that was inconceivable nine months ago, this government, along with their Islamic cohorts, will experience the gathering storm of outright derision.
And about time too......
Posted by: Stopmakingsense at February 26, 2008 1:48 PM
"Some students have said that they would prefer to quit the course rather than expose their arms."
Sounds like a plan to me.
There are plenty of vocational and educational opportunities in islam. From housewife to...um
I'll get back to you when I think of something else.
at February 26, 2008 1:53 PM
A Royal Liverpool hospital spokesman said they had experienced issues of Muslim staff not sanitising their forearms with alcohol gel
"Alcohol"? Alcohol?!!! ;)
Ethyl and Methyl -- Gog and Magog.
Posted by: cantor at February 26, 2008 2:14 PM
Stopmakingsense; I, for one, would appreciate reading about some of those GB items that don't make it into the news over here in N.America. Please post links (or text)when some of those indicator items pop up...things like associations or councils taking a no nonsense stand on dhimmitude.
Posted by: DaninVan at February 26, 2008 2:18 PM
I am horrified that this is even an issue...?!
Why are people even talking about this?
If someone from a mistery religion where to say that he or she could only perform cirurgical operations with his own home-made tools, how long would he be a practicing doctor?
There is nothing to talk about. If people don't want to follow CIVILIZED rules of hygiene, then...quit! Get lost! Go home!
What is a Muslim woman doing out of home anyway? Her duty to Allah is to stay at home, and breed more and more muslims to takeover the kaffir land by demografics.
BAN MUSLIM IMIGRATION!!
Posted by: Crusader at February 26, 2008 2:21 PM
Islamic law supercedes not only all other laws (according to Muslims), but it obviously supercedes the health & well being of others.
Common sense needs to make a come back: just fire those who do not abide by the hospitals rules, and require that they leave their Islamic traditions/laws at home and out of the work place.
"Some students have said that they would prefer to quit the course rather than expose their arms"....Please do!
at February 26, 2008 2:42 PM
Shouldn't these Muslim women be locked up at home caring for all the harem's children and vying for attention of her husband from the other 3 wives? If they want to get strict, they should all go home, preferably back to Islamia.
Posted by: Dumbo at February 26, 2008 2:44 PM
The answer is quite simple. Any patient admitted to an NHS hospital, or a private one for that matter, has every right to stipulate that no medical or surgical personnel, who have not followed all the hygiene norms, will be allowed to access the patient. And there is no hiding long sleeves from a patient.
The hospitals would soon find their muslim staff unemployable, and redundancies would necessarily result.
at February 26, 2008 2:49 PM
Why is it when i think of silly, Muslims come to mind? This is the silliest, stupidest thing I've heard in a long time, well at least since last week.
These people should be forced to pay back all state benefits / costs for their training and publically chastised. It's not like they did not know the requirements when they entered that profession.
Ridiculous. Ridiculous. Ridiculous.
Posted by: Sounder at February 26, 2008 2:51 PM
Quote from tanstaafl:
Is this why health care in Islamic countries lags behind the rest of the world?
**
In a word ... yes.
Posted by: Lori B. at February 26, 2008 3:07 PM
Muslim medical staff is a problem, and not only because they refuse to follow hygiene rules. Some of them refuse vital care to no-muslim patients considered impure and let them die. Some of them harrass or even attack harmed soldiers who returned from Irak or Afghanistan. Of course forget about Hippocrate oath with terrorist doctors like those who try to explose cars at an airport and in downtown London.
How can we be sure that the muslim doctor who treats us when we go to hospital urgency, will not try to harm us? Events have shown already that we can't trust them.
Posted by: elf at February 26, 2008 3:08 PM
* Fire them.
* Bust them for criminal negligence.
* Deport them.
* Let them spread MRSA among their compatriots and co-religionists.
at February 26, 2008 3:15 PM
why should they care if they make any infidels, sick, because they did not was their handsit is obviously the will of their cults moon god allha that they insist is the true Lord if they don't want to obey the rules on washing their hands they should go back where they came from and get out of medicine
Posted by: doglover at February 26, 2008 3:35 PM
As far as uncovered fore-arms go, if they won't bare their fore-arms to wash them, then they are admitting they're not interested in health-care, and should seek other training and employment.
As far as alcohol goes, just remove the word "alcohol" from the bottles, and replace it with the full chemical name of the compound involved, maybe something like "oxypropylanic acid". In any case, the alcohol used in cleaning is not the same as the alcohol that is in alcoholic beverages. Surely the authorities can find at least one imam who is scientifically literate enough to realize that the Koran was not talking about iso-propyl alcohol, and who can issue a fatwad saying this kind is legit.
at February 26, 2008 3:56 PM
It's good to know these kinds of things, especially with TB coming back and all the nasty forms of anit-biotic resistant bacteria the seems to be a veneer of all hospital walls. There's one way to compat this: Demand that all medical staff wash before you even talk to them. Demand that they all wash to their elbows and if they don't make a big stink about it. What is good for the goose is good for the gander. Tell them that YOUR RELIGION forbids being touched by a stragner that has not washed. Then sit back and watch them all scurry like little ants...
Posted by: never_submit at February 26, 2008 4:00 PM
Elric66-
"You from the UK?"
Dunno about him, but I am. In fact, I live in Liverpool where Alder Hey Children's Hospital is and that's where my kids go if they ever need treatment.
I can tell you this with qualification: Parents in Liverpool will raise an unholy storm if there is even a hint that our kids are not being treated with the utmost care for their health. As a distinctive people, we're not known for subtlety or dissembling; We just go for the throat.
Our girls, the mothers of our children, are even worse than the men if their kids are in danger. They won't argue the finer points of Islamic law when a good swing around the room by the hairstyle gets the point across just as well.
These 'students' may as well pack it all in now if they think there are going to be any concessions on this matter. There are none and the health authorities have said as much, as have quite a few politicians. The Liverpool Echo also runs a small column called 'The Voice of The Echo,' which states its' position on various subjects and the column today makes it absolutely clear that there is no compromise when it comes to the health and safety of our children and that if they find their beliefs in conflict with their job, then it's time to start looking for another vocation.
I have no doubt whatsoever that Liverpudlian parents will be quite vociferous making the same point.
Posted by: Wishbone at February 26, 2008 4:06 PM
One more suggestion. Special separate facilities for Moslems are already being provided in many public institutions. So just mandate separate clinics and hospitals for Moslems. Henceforth, Moslems would be treated only in Moslem-only facilities, which would be staffed exclusively by Moslems, with covered fore-arms and unwashed by alcohol.
If the fatality rate turns out to be considerably higher in the Moslem facilities, well, tough. Allah, so merciful, wills it.
at February 26, 2008 4:15 PM
Wishbone,
What is the general Muslim concensus on this where you live?
Are there, or have there been, any Muslims who've raised their voice in opposition to this nonsense? Or do they, in your opinion, support their co-religionist's claims?
Posted by: PRCS at February 26, 2008 4:19 PM
Dr Charles Tannock, a Conservative MEP and former hospital consultant, said: “These students are being trained using taxpayers’ money and they have a duty of care to their patients not to put their health at risk.
“Perhaps these women should not be choosing medicine as a career if they feel unable to abide by the guidelines everyone else has to follow.”
But the Islamic Medical Association insisted that covering all the body in public, except the face and hands, was a basic tenet of Islam.
Well they are quite welcome to go back to the basics,they wont be missed.
http://illustratedpig.blogspot.com/2008/02/beast-of-burden.html
Posted by: shiva at February 26, 2008 4:30 PM
"the Islamic Medical Association insisted that covering all the body in public, except the face and hands, was a basic tenet of Islam"
The basic tenets of civilization is that barbaric, superstitious, ignorant headbangers quickly adapt to the rules and settle in.
If this is not happening then these people have to be resettled.
Posted by: sheik yer'mami at February 26, 2008 4:45 PM
PRCS-
Believe it or not mate, but I wouldn't know 'cos Muslims around the North end of the city, where I live, are as rare as rocking horse droppings. Up this end, we have a very few black, far eastern or 'Asian' families in the neighbourhood, but there's no 'community.'
The South end of Liverpool is where most of our ethnic communities are based which, Liverpool being a one time major world port city, is more down to historical demographics than some of the self-'ghettoisation,' if you will, shown in other cities in Britain. The Afro-Caribbean community is the highest represented, along with a lot of Somalis who've been here lord knows how long also.
As to whether there have been any Muslims in the city voicing opposition to their co-religionists troublemaking:
Ten percent of those that reside here are keeping their heads down enough to avoid the question....
....The other ninety percent are in town getting pissed or sucking on a bong 'round their mates and can't be found.
I'm not kidding.
Posted by: Wishbone at February 26, 2008 5:14 PM
Fascism and Islamism thrive in Bradford - report
A Yorkshire city risks becoming a front line in the global clash between the West and Islam, a report has warned.
Bradford has slipped into a political vacuum where debate on community cohesion is stifled, allowing "fascism and Islamism" to thrive, according to academic Dr Alan Carling.
He says the city is in danger of becoming "a patchwork quilt of rival ethnic fiefdoms" that makes it a "fault line" in the clash between cultures.
The former chairman of the Bradford University Programme for a Peaceful City group said politicians, charities and academics who remained silent risked helping extremist groups split the city.
But he said if the divisions were confronted now, Bradford could become a worldwide example on how two cultures may coexist.
Dr Carling, writing in the March edition of the Urban Spaces journal, said: "In the post-9/11 world, Bradford looks like one of the fault lines in a supposed global confrontation between 'Islam' and 'the West'.
"The scale and nature of the challenges faced by the district make it one of the key places in Britain, and possibly in Europe, in which the relationships between populations of Muslim and non-Muslim background in the West are likely to be worked out in the future, either for good or for ill."
He said "white flight" from Bradford's inner-city wards showed clear evidence of an increase in segregation in the city since 1991. Statistical analysis shows that about 75 per cent of Muslims would now need to move to white neighbourhoods to get an equal distribution of ethnic communities in each.
While 20.5 per cent of residents in the city were Muslim in 2001, the Bradford Health Academy predicts that figure will rise to 28 per cent by 2011. A recent study by Leeds University suggests the proportion of minorities will reach 38.2 per cent by 2030, including 31.9 per cent from south Asia.
"It would be astonishing if a cultural shift of this potential magnitude were to take place without some friction and challenges of adjustment," said Dr Carling.
He believes the dominance of Pakistani Muslims in the city has meant that instead of its becoming a multicultural community, as in London where no minority dominates, Bradford has become bi-cultural.
Because of the Pakistani population's desire to create "ethnic colonies", he said, the best Bradford could hope for in the long term was accommodation rather than integration.
But he said the "unpalatable truth" was that up to 18,000 citizens of Bradford had voted for the BNP – they "have chosen over the last few years to step across the line that has defined the boundary of reputable politics ever since the defeat of the Nazis 60 years ago".
Likewise, the popularity of jihadi Islamic groups in the city was further promoting polarisation.
"The presence of these authoritarian groups carry especial dangers in places like Bradford," Dr Carling said. "Their messages are likely to find some resonance within existing attitudes and social conditions. In addition, there is a particular danger these two political currents will feed off each other."
He said that while there were many charities, individuals and agencies committed to countering polarisation in Bradford, there was a worry they were not yet operating on sufficient scale or with sufficient support from the public at large.
Dr Carling said: "A political vacuum exists where the public debate should be in Bradford about the realisation of a shared future. We have more to gain by opening out the debates on these issues than by closing them down.
"The risks of speech are outweighed by the dangers of silence, because the main effect of silence is to lend aid and comfort to the forces from the extremes."
Posted by: Stopmakingsense at February 26, 2008 5:30 PM
This is unbelievable. It is exactly what I mean when I say the media blatantly targets Muslims for unfair treatment.
Do you think these Muslims have not thought about this situation before they even embarked on their medical course?????? I am baffled as to why you don't spot these things?
What, they didn't know that part of the job requires them to bare their arms and wash them properly?
This is an utter lie to make it seem as if Islam and the Muslims are the enemies of the West in absolutely everything, even in the medical sector, where people's lives are at stake.
I seriously doubt the reliability of this story.
Take the archbishop of Canterbury for example.
He made the dreaded 'mistake' of saying Muslims should not be bound by law when it comes to resolving marriage disputes. They should be allowed to deal with their matter in their communities, their mosques. I mean I didn't even know there was a law when it comes to marriage disputes.
The media utterly slated him and labeled him a traitor giving into Sharia. Did he say bring in Sharia to replace the current law?
In France, doctors are having to reject young girls who claim their brothers and fathers would kill them if the doctors don't 'restore their virginity'. First of that's a lie. They are only trying to protect their name from becoming disgraced and they are using their families as an excuse. If it was the case that their lives are in danger, then why don't the doctors give them the treatment.
But truth is, they'd much rather see these young girls suffer than give them the treatment, why? because they 'don't want to give in to the fundamentalists.' What a load of rubbish.
Why don't they just tell the truth and admit that they couldn't care less about these young girls, so that when something terrible happens, the media can use it against Muslims. Only to say, 'oh look Islam in action.' When really it's the fault of a single nutter, who at the moment is not a Muslim.
These same doctors give condoms to 12 year olds and allow 'little kids' to have abortions without notifying the parents. Won't their parents be just as angry?
Anything to make the Muslims look bad is gold in the western media.
But hey, it's not stopping people from becoming Muslims. To make it even more of a bitter pill to swallow for those who hate Islam; most of the converts are woman. Despite the fact there husbands, 'might kill them.'
at February 26, 2008 5:56 PM
That long diatribe of nonsense and "conspiracy theory" should have stopped, deal cold, at:
I seriously doubt the reliability of this story.
I believe this story more so because we know that in the muslim 'faith', the "needs of the many do not outweigh the needs of the few."
Posted by: boneshack at February 26, 2008 6:40 PM
"But hey, it's not stopping people from becoming Muslims. To make it even more of a bitter pill to swallow for those who hate Islam; most of the converts are woman"
Posted by: thesaracen
Hey, is that you, pong? Or are you ping?
Posted by: Lt. Presley O'Bannon at February 26, 2008 7:23 PM
know that lies always has holes with which they can be penetrated. Truth, always has an answer, that defeats the lies and proof of it is how, you and your friends kept changing the subject.
You couldn't stick to one subject. After I gave you an answer you ducked under another subject and despite all your numbers and childish attacks, it was only boredom that overcame me.
I did my job. A fine one at that. Now I'm going to see whether anyone on 'protected' watch has any sense that they may use to end their hostility. I will never give up dawah boneshack.
Posted by: thesaracen at February 26, 2008 7:24 PM
Hey, is that you, pong? Or are you ping?
what???????????
Posted by: thesaracen at February 26, 2008 7:26 PM
"Most of the converts are women"
from a diatribe above.
Yea, they just can't resist those woolley bugger beards!
http://www.jihadwatch.org/archives/020108.php
Posted by: Lt. Presley O'Bannon at February 26, 2008 7:34 PM
thes - pong is a poster who states eerily similar comments as you do - it's hard to tell you two apart.
Posted by: champ at February 26, 2008 7:45 PM
The Islamic Medical Association appear to be a bunch of lunatics. I just Googled them and came across this story:
--------------
"A MUSLIM doctors’ leader has provoked an outcry by urging British Muslims not to vaccinate their children against diseases such as measles, mumps and rubella because it is “un-Islamic”.
Dr Abdul Majid Katme, head of the Islamic Medical Association, is telling Muslims that almost all vaccines contain products derived from animal and human tissue, which make them “haram”, or unlawful for Muslims to take…
He argued that leading “Islamically healthy lives” would be enough to ward off illnesses and diseases.
“You see, God created us perfect and with a very strong defence system. If you breast-feed your child for two years — as the Koran says — and you eat Koranic food like olives and black seed, and you do ablution each time you pray, then you will have a strong defence system,” he said."
---------
We can of course witness the extraordinary health in all Muslim countries, can't we?
And let me guess, Saracen, I suppose that you "seriously doubt the reliability of this story" too?
Posted by: Paul at February 26, 2008 7:46 PM
To: thesaracen
This original post was about Muslim students complaining, for religious reasons, about being required to adhere to accepted standards of hygiene in hospitals. Hospitals rightly reject these complaints as being antithetical to accepted medical practice. You seem to have a problem with this.
The citizens of the West are beginning to tire of this kind of incessant whining and demands for special treatment from newcomers they have generously accepted into their midst. The phrase in English, if you're not familiar with it, is "wearing out one's welcome." When you overstay your welcome and start insulting your hosts, it's time to leave. If your hosts have to help you in this endeavor, I'm sure they will find the means to do so.
Posted by: Eastview at February 26, 2008 8:04 PM
Churcill1939 @ 12:22 PM posted a link to http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/7264903.stm
Turkey in radical revision of Islamic texts
By Robert Piggott
Religious affairs correspondent, BBC News
--------------------------------------------
Pretty interesting stuff.
Robert or Hugh, would you care to comment on this constructively?
Posted by: Eastview at February 26, 2008 8:14 PM
This crazy interpretation by this supposed "authority" of islamic purity is just, well, crazy.
I would presume then that any muslima presenting herself to the emergency room with any of these conditions must be refused treatment:
a) broken arm - No, not islamic
b) tetanus, MMR, yellow fever, etec - No, not islamic
c) lacerations requiring sutures - No, not islamic
d) blood loss requiring transfusion - No, not islamic.
Why? Oh, gosh and be danged, she would have to bare her arm!! Oh, the horror! Oh, the immodesty!
To the NHS: Lay down the law (i.e., put your foot down) and tell all those who do not wish to follow the "Good Practices" of medicine to find another profession.
Posted by: boneshack at February 26, 2008 8:29 PM
How have muhammedan medical personnel - or muhammedan patients for that matter - coped up until now?
What a bunch of malarchy!
And if said muhammedan contracts an infection due to this barbaric restriction - who are they going to hold accountable? Certainly, not allah.
Muhammedans have had full use of airports, universities, hospitals, taxis etc. . . .FOR DECADES without prayer rooms, foot baths, gender segregation, prayer breaks etc.
Why appease such contrived insanity? Conform or go pound sand.
Posted by: miira at February 26, 2008 9:13 PM
The absolutely cavalier and psychopathic approach to patient care proves that these women are grossly unfit for work in any health care field. If they even got enough training to get into a hospital they know full well the several thousand reasons that hygiene requirements are so strict. Hospital born infections of some of the most pathogenic and drug resistant organisms are an ever present threat and require huge amounts of time effort and money to prevent and to combat. There is absolutely no moral justification for this stance. It is like saying you want to sell pork at your shop but refuse to refrigerate it because your religion forbids you to touch it so you are going to have it delivered to cardboard boxes in front of the store. If your religion forbids you from working in a field, stay out.
These women should not be given other duties or be afforded a female scrub room. They should be fired for incompetence and patient endangerment.
Posted by: Saul Wall at February 26, 2008 9:25 PM
Saul Wall,
Nice comment, on the whole. But one minor quibble with what you said:
These women should not be given other duties...
Administrative duties only!
...or be afforded a female scrub room.
Quote from the article:
A Royal Liverpool hospital [dhimmi] spokesman said:
“We were pleased to accommodate this request and these facilities have now been incorporated.”
No, this should have never been accommodated nor even acknowledged (as an issue). Shame on them!
They should be fired for incompetence and patient endangerment.
Yes, they should. And all of them read the 'riot act' on their way out the door!
Muslims do not, and can not, understand the basic Western principle of "Professional Standards" that guide us, lead us, to a harmonious, healthy, and productive society.
Posted by: boneshack at February 26, 2008 10:08 PM
I'm confused. Hasn't anyone told these ji-hags-in-training that if they become doctors they're going to HAVE TO LOOK at icky, naked bodies sometimes???
They say they don't want to clean themselves? I say: turn the full-powered fire hose on them and use it to guide them straight out the front door.
Posted by: angloirishslav at February 26, 2008 11:15 PM
"But the Islamic Medical Association insisted that covering all the body in public, except the face and hands, was a basic tenet of Islam.
It said: '“No practising Muslim woman – doctor, medical student, nurse or patient – should be forced to bare her arms below the elbow.”'.
Posted by: Elric66
No practicing Muslim woman patient should be forced to bare her arms below the elbow? So what, you're supposed to give injections through the clothing? Just keep on pokin' till you find the right vein? What if the woman has a broken bone, a wound, or an infection? Or a skin disease? What if half her arm's been blown off, most likely by a bomb from one of her lovely co-religionists? Must she just then bleed to death or die from shock and pain? And this is only the ARMS we're talking about here, people!
I'm not being sarcastic; I really do want to know. I want someone to ask these frighteningly earnest little Muslimahs in their headscraves and their modest body covering exactly what they think the words "doctor" and "medical care" entail, when they clearly find their own bodies and those of others so threatening and repugnant.
I am beyond enraged when I read about things like this. I never want to let a Muslim doctor near me; in fact, I don't even want to stay in a hospital where there are Muslim medical staff, knowing that some of them refuse to conform to conventional hygiene standards. Call me an Islamophobe if you want, but it's my health and my life.
Posted by: angloirishslav at February 26, 2008 11:33 PM
One of the most frightening developments in epidemiology is the evolution of drug resistant TB strains. http://www.who.int/mediacentre/news/notes/2006/np23/en/index.html
The idea of medical personnel being part of the problem BY CHOICE has me in a state of apoplexy!
Earlier today, I came across the cost breakdown of treating a single case as being between $250K and $1M Canadian...and the public wonders why Healthcare is consuming 40% of the Provincial budget.
Posted by: DaninVan
at February 27, 2008 1:47 AM
Saracen,
Propaganda is the child of conflicting belief, and of other people's determination to spread their doctrines against all others. Its origins undoubtedly lay in the religious sphere. It is in essence biased, being most succesful when it appeals to hatred and prejudice. It is the antithesis of all honest education and information.
Yes Mr Musulman, I am talking about you and your religion.
Posted by: ericthekuffar at February 27, 2008 2:11 AM
Halal Alcohol
The human body produces about one ounce of pure alcohol each day. This naturally produced alcohol is called endogenous ethanol.
Muslims are acting in ignorance - when they choose not wish to wash their hands in what is practically the same thing.
at February 27, 2008 3:22 AM
Cole,
Thanks for that reminder. I had forgotten about that little bit out human/mammal physiology.
Methinks "the chinks in the armor" of Islam are beginning to get bigger every day.
As for the topic at hand, these supposed "students" are just plain stupid and ignorant. For Heaven's sake, can' they distinguish between using an alcohol-based disinfectant for hygienic purposes versus ingesting a form of alcohol?
Or was the basic problem that the students might show a some "wrist", thus being immodest before 'allah'?
I need another Tylenol before I think through this logic.
Posted by: boneshack at February 27, 2008 3:56 AM
thesaracen:
Hmm, how to put this?
Oddly enough, non-Muslims don't spend all their time thinking up ways to be against Muslims. Know why? Becasue life is chhalenging enough as it is.
That you even think this way shows your extreme narcissism. The world is not all about Muslims and their dreary world-view, but a huge number of them are making life so awful, so often, that non-Muslims are reluctantly compelled to notice it, to wonder about it, and ideally, to do something about it.
That many non-Muslims simply accommodate Muslims is due to their good nature.
Finally, no one has to make up anything to put people against Islam. Islam is doing that brilliantly on its own.
By the way, your'e dealing with educated adults here who know the nasty secrets of Islam. I wish it wasn't necessary to know about it but it is. In that sense it's like a horrible disease - inconvenient and tiring. Feel free to do something about it.
Posted by: carpediadem at February 27, 2008 4:18 AM
What are these women doing out of the house and working anyway?
This has nothing to do with them being oppressed and abused or the continuing and ridiculous lie that "the media blatantly targets Muslims for unfair treatment." This has everything to do with Muslims using our laws and practices to destroy our laws and practices and is part of the jihad. This reminds me and is so similar to the case in the UK of that young woman who went into apply for a teaching job in front of a man and a woman, uncovered, and then showed up to work in full Hefty bag mode with just the eye slits and filed a suit (and won money) because her rights were being trampled on. I'll never forget that interview when after saying she couldn't be seen by men who weren't related to her the TV interviewer asked her if she had indeed applied for the job and spoke to the man in charge without her getup on? She hemmed and hawed and then asked, "Do I have to answer the question?"
Posted by: Isabellathecrusader at February 27, 2008 4:18 AM
Here's the link for that interview. Watch it and LOL.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/england/bradford/6050392.stm
at February 27, 2008 4:27 AM
Cole said
The human body produces about one ounce of pure alcohol each day. This naturally produced alcohol is called endogenous ethanol.
Filthy kufir bodies may produce endogenous alcohol each day, but rest assured that True Believers' bodies do not. Why not? Because Allah wills it so. I hope you do not require any more proof than that, or go searching for knowledge other than memorizing the words of the Holy, Holy Qur'an.
Posted by: special_guest at February 27, 2008 4:45 AM
How very unscientific in 21st Century ?. This way can anyone ever imagine Female Muslim Surgeons performing 'Vasectomies' on males obviously ? Unthinkable under such obsolete circumstances. But here in India female surgeons had done long before ,in 1975/76 ,and Muslim males have got it done (under force only-the only way to Treat Islam !!). I have seen and done in thousands. One case in record 5 minutes with full precautions. All ok.World needs to move forward not backwards.
Posted by: Kash225 at February 27, 2008 5:35 AM
Islam is the only belief system I am aware of where the adherent will not modify his belief when the health or life of another person is threatened. What further proof does one need that this is the religion of evil incarnate? And no, the employees who endanger hospital patients should be summarily dismissed. Additionally, such health care workers should be imprisoned for assault upon their medical patients.
Posted by: David England at February 27, 2008 6:16 AM
special_guest said: Filthy kufir bodies may produce endogenous alcohol each day, but rest assured that True Believers' bodies do not. Why not? Because Allah wills it so. I hope you do not require any more proof than that, or go searching for knowledge other than memorizing the words of the Holy, Holy Qur'an.
You're too cowardly to even sign in and make that idiotic statement?
I'm guessing you're just a childish troublemaker, and here's why:
No PBUH or SAW after allah....You KNOW he saw that and he's coming for you, right? Your imaginary deity will be super pissed that you didn't address him with the right amount of servile grovelling.
Not that I seriously believe you're a muslim.
Abu Lahab was right
Posted by: Abu_Lahab at February 27, 2008 6:43 AM
They should be discharged, of course, at once, and all those who defend their refusal to conform to basic and indispensable regulations concerning hospital hygiene, should also be dismissed. Pakistan, and indeed every Muslim state, is in dire need of doctors, even those who do not properly wash up. They can go there.
And even if we are now told that these female doctors-in-training will, under pressure, reluctantly and begrudgingly conform, can patients be sure that they will? Would there not be lingering doubts that the most devout of all will find a way to avoid exposing their lower arms to the gaze of...whom, exactly?
In every European country, male doctors report that they are often not allowed to meet, alone, with female Muslim patients, but are expected to conduct an examination through the female patient's husband, or by giving directions to a female nurse, and the same is true for operations, including deliveries. This is not always and everywhere yielded to, but it happens enough to have seriously disrupted medical care --medical care for everyone.
This information, as to the effect on a nation's medical care of those who are demanding, threatening, and entirely unreasonable among that nation's Muslim population of both patients and medical staff, needs to be openly discussed. Instead, it gets out in anecdotal evidence, in dribs and drabs. Some patients observe it. Some doctors and nurses experience it. But the general publics of countries in Western Europe still do not know, and their governments do not want them to know.
Posted by: Hugh at February 27, 2008 7:25 AM
Abu_Lahab; I think if you'll re-reread 'special_guest's' post you'll find that he was being satirical...ie sarcastic.
Posted by: DaninVan at February 27, 2008 10:25 AM
Sorry DaninVan,
I've lost the ability to tell sarcasm from actual islamic dialogue.
We need an official sarcasm font.
Posted by: Abu_Lahab at February 27, 2008 1:58 PM
Allah may be a teetotaler, but the One True God certainly isn't.
Even Jesus turned water into WINE at a wedding reception because they ran out before the reception was over; and if Jesus had merely turned water into grape juice then it makes sense, at least to me anyway, it makes sense that the guests would have complained by saying, "Hey, we don't want grape juice, we want wine, what is this sh**!" No, they exclaimed that this was the best wine that they had ever had!
Poor followers of allah, your god is just a teetotalin' kill joy. No fun in Islam. None. Boo Hoo to you. Your sad choice, though.
BTW, the Bible clearly states that getting drunk is a problem, but it doesn't state that alcohol is a problem. Moderation - that is the key.
Study this if you don't agree with me:
http://www.biblestudy.org/basicart/chrdrink.html
at February 27, 2008 2:09 PM
What surprises me is why Muslims bother with medicine at all. After all, true believers are protected by Allah and no harm can come to true Islamisists. Seems to me they should disdain all medicine-Eastern or Western-and I wish they would.
Posted by: lo3 at February 27, 2008 2:49 PM
What surprises me is why Muslims bother with medicine at all. After all, true believers are protected by Allah and no harm can come to true Islamisists. Seems to me they should disdain all medicine-Eastern or Western-and I wish they would.
Posted by: lo3 at February 27, 2008 2:50 PM
At the end of the day this story is a lie told by Rupert Murdoch. It makes no sense that these nurses only realised that they may have to wash their hands after spending 3 years studying for their degree. Makes no sense at all.
Isabellathecrusader is not really being honest by giving a description of a video, providing a link, only for me to discover that it has nothing to do with this young lady tricking her employers into employing her. The young lady in the BBC interview said she has no problem taking her veil off in front of the children, but in front of men, good on her for keeping her modesty. What are men doing in the class anyway?
Why would she be dishonest, yet fight for her right to wear her veil? She would know that her employers had every right to sack her if she tricked them. So another false story, full of media spin.
I may be dealing with educated adults, that may be true, but your not educated on Islam. Your educated by the media who tell you what Islam is. The media is not free from striving for political ideals. The newspapers are owned by people who have a particular way of thinking. They will never give you a story that does not help their political cause. Even if it's true, they will spin it.
The Times, The Sun, The News of the World. All owned by who?
A person who is not very popular even among non-Muslims.
You all need to re-read the article as it has nothing to do with alcohol or disinfectants.
champ drinking 'in moderation' is why Britain is now fighting in desperation, to prevent a drinking culture that is sweeping across the country.
Human weakness totally destroys this moderation your talking about especially amongst the young and thats why it's banned in Islam.
It's no fun when people die from drinking related events and see their lives destroyed is it? Everyone is different, some humans are capable of drinking in moderation, but some clearly aren't. Better that it is banned.
at February 27, 2008 3:02 PM
Abu_Lahab said
I've lost the ability to tell sarcasm from actual islamic dialogue.
Me too. I've also lost the ability to tell TheOnion.com stories from actual stories about Islamic beliefs and actions. The more you learn about Islam, and our current reaction to it, the harder it is to believe it could be true.
To wit, are we actually having a conversation about whether Muslim doctors need to wash their hands? Have we lost our @*&#$'n minds?
Posted by: special_guest at February 27, 2008 4:33 PM
thesaracen said
It makes no sense that these nurses only realised that they may have to wash their hands after spending 3 years studying for their degree. Makes no sense at all.
You are currently at Level 1 of Cognitive Dissonance. Keep reading stories about Islam on the daily news, and you will soon advance to Level 10 and beyond.
Why would she be dishonest
Because Allah sanctions dishonesty when dealing with filthy kufirs. Because she can get some more booty from the kufirs, and then donate her cut of the loot to Allah. Because she can use the kufir's legal system to pressure the kufirs to adapt to Muslim values.
You all need to re-read the article as it has nothing to do with alcohol or disinfectants.
The mention of alcohol is in reference to
a previous story, in which Muslim doctors refused to wash their hands because the cleaning solution contained alcohol. This time, they are refusing to wash their hands because their arms might be visible. Either way, we'd all be better off if the pure True Believers went back to Dar al-Islam and lived, with their unwashed hands, according to sharia and the will of Allah where no-one abuses their wife and no-one is a homosexual and no-one views pornography and no-one uses drugs and everything is peaceful, and leave us filthy kufirs alone here to suffer with our modern medicine, technology, prosperity, freedom, tolerance, and what was that, our corrupt "drinking in moderation" that has us "fighting in desperation". We'll somehow find a way to struggle on without Allah's help.
your not educated on Islam. Your educated by the media who tell you what Islam is. The media is not free from striving for political ideals. The newspapers are owned by people who have a particular way of thinking. They will never give you a story that does not help their political cause.
Let me take a wild guess here: we're talking about The Jooooooooz, right? I don't know what you're on about. The Western media is the penultimate promoter of Islam, second only to Western political "leaders".
Take, for example, media coverage of the Northern Illinois mass murder. The very day it happened, the police and the media immediately put out a statement about how the killer was "mentally ill" with no known ties to terrorism. After a week, when everybody had forgotten the story, it comes out that the killer Kazmierczak spoke Arabic and was a big fan of Hamas. But covering it up for only a week wasn't good enough, right?
I still bet that one day, we'll learn similar irrelevant facts about Seung-Hui Cho, the shooter at Virginia Tech, and which irrelevant Quranic quotes are included in his irrelevant manifesto that has never been released, out of sympathy for the families of the victims (It was apparently acceptable to release photographs of a scowling Cho pointing guns into the camera, but releasing the text of his explanation of his motivation was too disturbing for us to see. Yeah, right. Uh-huh. And just what was on that video he made entitled "Al_Qaeda.mpg"?).
Posted by: special_guest at February 27, 2008 5:49 PM
thes - just because there are those who do not choose to drink in moderation is no reason to ban drinking for the rest who DO exercise moderation.
thes states: "Better that it is banned."
Banning is better, huh? I can think of "better" choices one could make besides banning booze, so I am not the least bit surprised by your backwards approach to solving the problem of excessive drinking. Far be it from a Muslim to suggest anything resembling personal responsibility....and far be it from me to help you figure this one out.
at February 27, 2008 7:17 PM
So what would you suggest to curb the drinking culture sweeping through Britain? A poster campaign?
Ban it, so that the problem doesn't arise in the first place. Alcohol isn't exactly a human necessity is it?
It's like that other famous solution to a problem. The safety of woman was a problem once upon a time, as many of them were being raped and attacked. Solution: Street Lights
How many woman are raped despite the street lights?
Posted by: thesaracen at February 27, 2008 7:26 PM
Poster campaign? Wrong!
Come on, thes, please try figuring this one out on your own; try thinking outside of the box for a minute. Stop using that "micromanaging" Muslim mindset of yours and lets see if you can come up with a better answer than that one.
Islam has stunted your ability to think for yourself - so you will get NO help from me on this one.
Street lights? So now you're a comedian, very funny! Ha Ha Ha!! But the subject of rape is hardly one to be making jokes with.
Posted by: champ at February 27, 2008 8:09 PM
thesaracen-
There are many solutions open to our government to curb the blight of the drinking culture in Britain, none of which involve banning all alcohol in the name of a religion. Should our government be in any way arsed to do its' job any time soon, then we could see improvements, but I wouldn't hold my breath.
If you would care to take a look at most mainland European countries, you'd notice that they do not have the 'drinking culture' that we do here in Britain, even though alcohol is just as widely available, so let's not go down that road of assuming that the problem here is 'availability.'
As for your 'street lights' analogy, are we also to assume that the one and only reason for the advent of the street light was to protect women from sexual assault? And of course, these crimes still occur, often in broad daylight, but any criminal is statistically less likely to commit a crime in such places where he may be accosted or identified in the course of their crime and having lit streets goes some way to up the chances of that happening significantly.
There are much simpler answers to your quandaries fella. They just don't involve installing a religious theocracy which is alien to the indigenous culture to solve them.
Posted by: Wishbone at February 27, 2008 8:10 PM
* "Let them spread MRSA among their compatriots and co-religionists."
Yes, yes, yes!!!
at February 27, 2008 8:25 PM
wishbone, you need to stop this paranoia. When was the last time, a Muslim attacked you popping into your local Tesco. I'm a Muslim, I live in your country, I respect your laws and want to see good for this country, end of story.
It's not our problem you're made to think we want to take over and replace laws in foreign lands, thats so silly that there's no point in even discussing it. Parliament makes the laws, how many Muslims in parliament?
People blame Muslims for everything, but patience is a virtue.
wishbone I think you'll find that attacks against woman at night was one of the reasons street lights came into existence.
People in continental Europe also die from alcohol related causes, did you know that wishbone?
Only in Britain it's even worse.
I'm not trying to say the Islamic world is better, neither did I bring up this alcohol topic. But since it has been brought up as a tool against Islam, you might as well know exactly the reason why it is banned.
And champ I don't have a clue what you're talking about. You can't make a law which says 'drink in moderation', can you? So tell me what you can do to stop the problem. And no I wasn't making a joke of rape victims, thats tasteless and the culprits should get far worse than a 10 year sentence.
Stupidity is moving to new levels. Muslim nurses, refuse to wash their hands because they didn't know men will be in the room? Can it get anymore ridiculous?
Posted by: thesaracen at February 27, 2008 10:24 PM
But do they adequate supplies of clean pebbles in the w.c. (rest room)?
No proper hospital can ignore that part of Islam's hygiene.
Posted by: profitsbeard at February 28, 2008 12:13 AM
thesaracen said
Stupidity is moving to new levels. Muslim nurses, refuse to wash their hands because they didn't know men will be in the room? Can it get anymore ridiculous?
...because they should be at home breeding?
I...want to see good for this country
What you see as "good for this country" might not be the same as what we kufirs think is good.
Posted by: special_guest at February 28, 2008 12:48 AM
thesaracen:
I'm educated about Islam - hpw?
I go to Islamic sites and I read forums written by Muslims. I read articles such as the ones posted here, many of which have interviews and comments from Muslims, including imams.
I've even gone to a few sites operated by ex-Muslims and by Muslims outraged by Muslims who are terrorists. I've read discussions on the Koran, about the Koran. I have seen quite a few documentaries about Islamic terrorism. And on, and on. And of course, I've visited jihadwatch.
Etc and etc.
i also read comments by people like you who are magnificently idiotic about how people know about Islam. The fact that you live in a non-Islamic place says a great deal - you choose to live in a place, that, while not perfect, is clearly preferable to an Islamic-ruled country.
Fortunately for me I've met several jolly Muslims, Muslims who are busy living life. Significantly, none of them are religious Muslims.
Why are you defending Islam? Are you religious?Or just becasue it belongs to you? Nobody cares if someone follows a religion. But if the basis of a religion is slavery or death of those who do not belong to that religion, why should we not pay attention?
Posted by: carpediadem at February 28, 2008 2:55 AM
I've also read many of the statements made on British Islamic forums, the Muslim Council of Britain, a few British Imams, and CAIR.
And I read quite a few Palestinian info sources.
You guys are poison, all right.
at February 28, 2008 2:58 AM
"It's not like they didn't know the requirements when they entered that profession."
-Sounder
That's the thread binding the whole thing together. People are going to have to realize what this is all about:Jihad in action.
Posted by: We need G.C. Scott at February 28, 2008 3:58 AM
Thesaracen wrote:
"When was the last time, a Muslim attacked you popping into your local Tesco"
This is a rather loaded question. Firstly if you have ever been attacked before regardless of location you dont stop to ask the attacker about his/her/theyre religous alignment. What I do see as an attack though is the Muslim culture failing to intergrate or rather they choose to stay together and cause entire areas of cities into 'thier' corner. Down the road from my house there is a thriving immigrant community,mostly from Somalia some maybe Muslims some not but the fact is the area theyve found themselves in has steadly been polarised by thier unwillingness to intergrate with the English population. I know this isnt exactly a Muslim only issue but Islam has been one of the drving forces behind the segregation namely the location of Mosque. If you look at the trend where ever there is a Mosque the community largely goes in its own direction building Hallal butcher stores and other essentials for the foriegners lifestyle choices which basicly forces the previously English community to get torn down and driven out.
thesaracen wrote:
"I may be dealing with educated adults, that may be true, but your not educated on Islam. Your educated by the media who tell you what Islam is. The media is not free from striving for political ideals. The newspapers are owned by people who have a particular way of thinking. They will never give you a story that does not help their political cause. Even if it's true, they will spin it.
The Times, The Sun, The News of the World. All owned by who?
A person who is not very popular even among non-Muslims."
Ah its that only zionist newspaper conspiracy bandwagon thing.
The only thing Newspapers are interested in protecting is thier ability to sell the facts and they can quite happily achieve that goal with or without a nation abroad coming under rocket fire from militant groups on a daily basis.
Back to the problem of Muslims failing to respect the hygiene standards of hospitals, where is the Muslim Council of Great Britain when the story started to leak into the media? Muslims blame the media for distorition of facts but we never see any commitment from themselves or thier self professed pressure groups to sort out these problems.We throw the problem back up into the air time and time again hoping someone finally from the muslim community will catch and run with it but it never happens. The circle of blame can only end when Muslims set aside thier own prejudices and victimised personality disorders and take some responcibility for thier inadiquacies.
Posted by: OLDEngland at February 28, 2008 4:38 AM
thesaracen-
Look mate, if you want to address my statements, you're hardly going to enhance the credibility of your own by attributing the basis of my stance to an hysterical bout of paranoia. As to your question of when the last time I was attacked by a Muslim going into Tesco's?..... Well, as they say: What did that have to do with the price of fish?
No one has made me think that 'all' Muslims want to take over and replace indigenous laws with their own. Yet the reality is that there are rather a lot of Muslims who do and are quite vociferous about it. Now you say that this is not 'your' problem that we are 'made' to think this. I disagree; it really is a problem for Muslims because what we think is shaped by real world events, not by some media conspiracy to whip up antipathy toward Muslims. You cannot reject facts as 'too silly for discussion.' Sooner or later they become too big to brush under the carpet and come back to bite you on the arse.
People do not blame Muslims for everything, fella. They blame Muslims for those things that Muslims quite evidently do. Again, I won't go down that path of saying that the actions of the one or the few are representative of the whole where Muslims are concerned; That would be silly. Yet Muslims are still over represented when it comes to negative news. Can you understand how that impacts upon the non Muslims in this nation? How is it that a minority of......What?...2 million people?....... amongst a population of some sixty million or so, should be making so much noise and making so many demands for accommodation when practically every other minority makes no such noise and gets on with it? This is the question that raises itself in people's minds and it's very much a problem for the Muslim communities to address because we've been told in no uncertain terms that it's not for we non Muslims to answer.
'Street Lights'.... You're absolutely right that one of the reasons for their practicality was a reduction of sexual assaults, but I said that already: It was 'one' of the reasons, not 'the' reason.
You're also correct that continental Europe has its' share of alcohol related mortality but in Britain it's not only worse, it's right off the scale by comparison. Deaths are one factor, but the instance of alcohol related violence, injury and other incidents are an absolute disgrace in this country when held up against that of other nations. Now you may say that the subject of alcohol has only been brought up as a 'tool against Islam,' but there are many of your co-religionists who have no problem using that same device in order to slam the perceived immorality of non Muslims.
There are bigots on either side of the fence, but a lot of the noise is coming from your side mate and that really is 'your' problem. What do you expect us to do about your undesirable element when you won't get a grip on them? It's no wonder that the silence of the 'moderate Muslim majority' is seen as compliance. If we stood back and allowed the neo-nazis to march through London, broadcasting their vile views, you would quite rightly excoriate us for allowing it to happen. Why is it that Muslims can't seem to take collective responsibility for the nasty element in their midst?
It's not a one way street, you know.
Posted by: Wishbone at February 28, 2008 8:01 AM
Wishbone, very well said.
Posted by: Isabellathecrusader at February 28, 2008 8:43 AM
Well wishbone I respect a lot of things you've just had to say and no you're not paranoid.
But even you can't deny that everything coming out of the media is anti-Islamic, particularly those publications I have mentioned, who believe me are owned by a man who hates Muslims.
All you hear is Muslims are refusing to wash their hands, Muslims want a different law, Muslims are causing crime. I have hundreds, thousands of Muslim friends and not one of them fits any of these categories.
The secular law, does not affect me, I can live in this country and still maintain my religion. If I need money, I get a job and side-step a bank loan with interest. It's not difficult for me to live here wishbone.
So these demands from Muslims that are reported all the time by the media, are nothing but media spin. I cannot understand why a few nurses objecting to exposing their forearms in front of men, is relevant to daily life. How is that newsworthy?
The NHS is struggling, no doubt about it, they are desperate for nurses. So why make such a big fuss? Just provide these woman with a separate area where they can wash their hands. They are not making unrealistic demands wishbone? I mean the NHS does not have to provide anything, I'm sure these nurses can find a solution to the 'problem' quite easily. Did they make a big hoo-haa about it, did they protest?
It's the same with that lady who was sacked from her job because she refused to take her veil off in front of men. The media made it seem as if she refused to take it off in class, which is false. Normally, these issues are called employment tribunals, not Muslims making demands.
The BNP make demands all the time, they even incite violence against Muslims, why is nothing being done about them? They are even a political party. I cannot believe the hypocrisy.
How about the Christian girl who wouldn't take of her chastity ring, the BA stewardesses who refused to remove their Christian necklaces. These are isolated incidents, but I can't turn round and say all Christians are making demands.These stories are reported as a Christian taking a stand for their rights.
Does this have something to do with the rights of the native people wishbone? Should their voice be anymore louder than those of the Muslims?
If your customs are traditions are dying out, it has nothing to do with Muslims. It's made to seem that way, but we're not stopping you from celebrating Christmas or maintaining your traditions.
Michael Nazir-Ali seems to think otherwise and isn't it strange that most of his attacks are aimed at Muslims and not a week goes by without him saying something ludicrous. This guy is a bishop, why not put a button on him, since he's not helping matters.
This claim about 'no-go' areas is also wrong. The media paints it out as if Muslims are to blame. Well if the government wants integration, they wouldn't house immigrants in specific areas, namely East London. I have no problem integrating with you. But if you distrust Muslims, just because a few guys thought bombing the underground was jihad, then it's you thats the problem.
Now we come to that common claim that Muslims aren't doing enough to stop these people. Wishbone, if the media would allow Muslims to speak and not shut them up and call them 'apologists', then maybe you'll realise our problem.
The Muslim Council of Britain speaks out all the time; they call for integration, between communities and denounce terrorism.
But you don't hear it, do you? Not nearly as much as you hear Michael Nazir-Ali.
It's also funny how Archbishop Rowan Williams is seen as a traitor for promoting inter-faith religions, whereas this clown (Michael Nazir-Ali) mouths off about how non-Muslims have to face 'no-go areas' and is seen as a courageous hero.
Action is being taken particularly among the youth to remind them what Islam truly is and to be weary of these hate-mongers that are in our midsts. But its not the job of a Muslim to find these people.
at February 28, 2008 12:59 PM
Thesaracen is a troll. IMHO the "Do Not Feed" guideline is advisable in this case.
Posted by: angloirishslav at February 28, 2008 6:00 PM
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