An "Iraqi scholar" possibly now advising the new Amwerican-sponsored and American-funded and American-everythinged Iraqi government?

Posted by: Hugh at April 11, 2008 9:05 AM

"People who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones."

Agreed.

"Therefore, in these stupid countries, you rarely find girls aged 10 or 12 who are still virgins."

This is a statement with absolutely no factual basis. Logically, it should be perceived as false as it implies that most girls between the ages on 10 and 12 are not virgins.

"How can you permit the outcome without accepting the cause?"

The entire tu quoque argument of Al-'Ubeidi fails due to his distortion of historical chronology. He blames current decadent western culture and values as a tu quoque justification for the actions of a man who lived almost 1400 years ago.

Someone should establish a whole new psychological discipline called deciphering Islamic logic.

No authentic Muslim source will refute the details of Muhammad's marriage to Aisha, yet they always become incensed when what they so fervently believe in is even acknowledged by a non-muslim.

Posted by: awake at April 11, 2008 9:19 AM

"People who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones."

Agreed.

"Therefore, in these stupid countries, you rarely find girls aged 10 or 12 who are still virgins."

This is a statement with absolutely no factual basis. Logically, it should be perceived as false as it implies that most girls between the ages on 10 and 12 are not virgins.

"How can you permit the outcome without accepting the cause?"

The entire tu quoque argument of Al-'Ubeidi fails due to his distortion of historical chronology. He blames current decadent western culture and values as a tu quoque justification for the actions of a man who lived almost 1400 years ago.

Someone should establish a whole new psychological discipline called deciphering Islamic logic.

No authentic Muslim source will refute the details of Muhammad's marriage to Aisha, yet they always become incensed when what they so fervently believe in is even acknowledged by a non-muslim.

Posted by: awake at April 11, 2008 9:19 AM

"------ her girlfriend or whatever, has sex with her, she has the right to have an abortion"---?

Is elementary biology forbidden in Islam?

And girls in cold countries do not menstruate until the age of 22?

Good grief!!!!

Posted by: Sencit at April 11, 2008 9:25 AM

Apologies.

Posted by: awake at April 11, 2008 9:31 AM

The entire argument is one of men wanting sex with children. No child brides point of view is presented.

Posted by: duh_swami at April 11, 2008 10:54 AM

"Many criminals, the enemies of Islam.."

I'm proud to be a criminal, count me in!

Posted by: sheik yer'mami at April 11, 2008 10:59 AM

What? What??? WHAT???

After reading this tripe, I now have been spun into a world of pissed I didn't even know exsisted. I mean, I am speechless about this.
Did I really see what I thought I saw?
I mean......WTF???
It seems as if right has become wrong and wrong is right in Islam. How did we get here? Where are the white hat guys that, in the past would have put a stop to such things? Do we not know how to judge any more? Good grief, we really could be doomed!
God, I hope not!

"Kuffirs of the world, Unite!"
"Islam, abusing women and children since 622AD"

Posted by: OregonJake at April 11, 2008 11:36 AM

The young girls being married off to the old men leaves a lot of young men without a bride. Perfect for sending off on jihad.

And what happens to these girls who are still young when the old husband dies? Do they end up begging in the street?

What happened to Aisha? She was 18 when Mo died. And we know she wasn't allowed to remarry.

Posted by: Borg at April 11, 2008 11:39 AM

Many criminals, the enemies of Islam, ask: "How could the Prophet Muhammad, at 52 years of age, marry 'Aisha when she was only 8 years old, and consummate the marriage when she was 9 years old?" I say to them: People who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones. Why do you permit your young girls to fornicate?

Tu quoque, as usual, although this puts me much in mind of the Clinton-fan "everybody does it".

But that said, this guy is supplying a fair example of something I assert with some frequency.

Mohammedanism codifies and legitimizes what the rest of the world regards as criminal behavior.

Most of us regard sex with under-aged girls as criminal, and it's legally forbidden as a form of rape.

This dope points out that some very young girls have sex, and that's his argument for making them eligible for marriage.

So -- criminals have sex with young girls outside of marriage, so why can't respectable guys have sex with young girls within marriage.

As I see it, his core thinking really is "somebody is going to get some anyway, it might as well be me".

We are talking RETARD here!

Posted by: joeblough at April 11, 2008 11:40 AM

"I say to them: People who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones. Why do you permit your young girls to fornicate? They consider it one of their liberties. Therefore, in these stupid countries, you rarely find girls aged 10 or 12 who are still virgins. They permit this."
-- from the article above

This "Islamic scholar" demonstrates the sheer craziness that is not his alone. Many in the Muslim world are prepared to believe the most absurd things, and they keep confusing things as well. The man debating Wafa Sultan, for example, had heard the name "Bernard Lewis" but had confused Lewis, a scholar of Islam, with someone else, and attributed to him things that had nothing to do with Lewis.

Now, because we can see, on American television, all kinds of crappy programs, and because of the general exploitation of sex in advertising and in broadcasting, and because there are teenagers busily fornicating, this "scholar" and many others think that "you rarely find girls aged 10 to 12 who are still virgins" which, of course, is nonsense.

No, Nabokov was only fooling around when he has Lolita tell Humbert, in wonder (after her encounter with Charlie, the camp owner's son, at Camp Climax): "You mean you never did it when you were a kid?"

No, vraiment, despite all our decadence, we do not routinely fornicate in this country with ten year olds, or twelve year olds. Or nine year olds, which because it was the age of little Aisha, and good enough for Muhamamd, the Perfect Man, al-insan al-kamil, is apparently good enough for this "Iraqi Islamic scholar" and for hundreds of millions of others, and that explains why, in Iran, a country of 70 million, as soon as Khomeini came to power virtually his first act was to lower the marriageable age of Iranian girls to nine.

How much of this nonsense are we expected to endure?

Apparently, a great deal.

Posted by: Hugh at April 11, 2008 12:02 PM

"Many criminals, the enemies of Islam, ask: "How could the Prophet Muhammad, at 52 years of age, marry 'Aisha when she was only 8 years old, and consummate the marriage when she was 9 years old?" I say to them: People who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones. Why do you permit your young girls to fornicate? They consider it one of their liberties. Therefore, in these stupid countries, you rarely find girls aged 10 or 12 who are still virgins."

- Dr. Abd Al-Hamid Al-'Ubeidi

I'll bet we've got more of them than you do, pedophile. Our young women don't have their fathers selling their daughters to middle aged pedophiles. It's illegal in our country, but not illegal under Sharia Law. Which is moral, secular law or "divine" law? I know what is in this case. Do you? How old was the man who "married" your 8 year old daughter?

Posted by: tanstaafl at April 11, 2008 12:22 PM

Luke 6:37-49 Jesus said:
37 "Do not judge, and you will not be judged. Do not condemn, and you will not be condemned. Forgive, and you will be forgiven.

and

41 "Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother's eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye? 42 How can you say to your brother, 'Brother, let me take the speck out of your eye,' when you yourself fail to see the plank in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother's eye. 43 "No good tree bears bad fruit, nor does a bad tree bear good fruit. 44 Each tree is recognized by its own fruit. People do not pick figs from thornbushes, or grapes from briers. 45 The good man brings good things out of the good stored up in his heart, and the evil man brings evil things out of the evil stored up in his heart. For out of the overflow of his heart his mouth speaks.

Posted by: eve_anne_gelical at April 11, 2008 12:58 PM

Every time a muslim says that girls can have periods when they are 10, we need to hit them hard with the response that this means making marriage decisions according to a girl's menstruation status. No thought to the mental maturity, the emotional feelings, the relationship between a man and a woman, the ability to make informed decisions about your own life. None of this plays any part in the coming together of two people in freedom and happiness.
One more reason why islam is inhuman and mohammed was.
And any excuse that 'things were different then' has to be counted with their own slogan that the Pervert Mohammed is a perfect example for ALL time.
From my experiences teaching muslim women in East London, this is the one subject that really gets to them. Deep down they know it's disgusting and often can't face it but it creates real doubts with many of them.

Posted by: zoltix at April 11, 2008 1:26 PM

I agree with Zoltix's first paragraph. Certainly when we women as girls began to menstruate, we were not "mature" in other ways. There is more to marriage and more to sex than the physical. As we stodgy old-fashioned conservative Catholics would say: "You cannot put a condom on a heart to keep it from breaking." Which brings me to my point, I disagree with 99% of what Dr. Al Ubeidi is saying especially the nonsense about cold climate countries and 22 year olds without a period BUT I do believe he has a point on the fornication. The % of our USA young gals who have STD's is staggering. The % of young women who aren't happy bed-hopping and what that does to them emotionally is only now being recognized in a few studies. I do long for a counter Sexual revolution especially working for a law firm that does "family" law: divorce, child custody, paternity and living in a city where fatherless boys end up in gangs, prisons or morgues. So I will give Dr. Al Ubeidi that. However, the cure is not Sharia imposing morality from the outside (and a warped morality at that) but young American women saying "no thanks" to the easy sex, easy abortions, easy hookups, easy breakups and shallow life their mothers' surrender to the Sexual revolution handed them.

Posted by: bevc at April 11, 2008 1:52 PM

The point remains that Dr. Abd Al-Hamid Al-'Ubeidi uses something universally considered bad in Western society to justify or negate criticism of something universally considered "good" in his society.

Sorry, tu quoque doesn't work.

Dr. Abd Al-Hamid Al-'Ubeidi, you are apologizing for pedophiles, sick men who abuse children. Mohammed was one of these. That makes you a sick person and a follower of a sick man. Get help, please.

Posted by: Concerned Citizen at April 11, 2008 3:16 PM

Islam: complete contempt for females since 622 A.D.

Posted by: profitsbeard at April 11, 2008 9:16 PM

The law in many countries permits girls to marry only from the age of 18. This is arbitrary legislation, not Islamic law.

No, it's not arbitrary just because there is no Qur'anic antecedant.

In the West, we recognize that
1) Intellectual development is progressive, and there are ages before which, on average, lifelong decisions are often made inappropriately and prematurely.
2) Sexual development is progressive, and there are ages before which you are just a disgusting, damned to hell pedophile if you touch her, you sickening freak.

Posted by: Concerned Citizen at April 11, 2008 10:19 PM

"Therefore, in these stupid countries, you rarely find girls aged 10 or 12 who are still virgins."

I wonder where this jerk gets his information? If this is the level of religious discourse in the Muslim world one wonders what the future will bring.

Posted by: Jerry M at April 11, 2008 10:48 PM

The views of this august and enlightened Islamic scholar and homme du monde, Al-'Ubeidi, are echoed by the equally enlightened Imam Desai of South Africa, whose online advice and wisdom is world-renowned. Desai confirms that men who marry prepubescent girls may have sexual intercourse with them, as Islam does not prohibit or discourage such behavior.

http://islam.tc/ask-imam/view.php?q=6737

Posted by: commonsense at April 12, 2008 1:19 AM

here's a lengthy comment I sent to Ed Husain some time ago. He replied that he was "too busy to read it".

A Question for Ed Husain

On 20 November, 2007, ex-Hizb ut-Tahrir member Ed Husain debated ex-Muslim Ayaan Hirsi Ali on the subject "The West and the Future of Islam" at the Centre for Social Cohesion in London. Ed must have thought he won, since he gave a link to the debate at the website quilliamfoundation.org which he and some associates have started. I'm not so sure. Following is my transcription and comments on one section of the debate. It picks up after Ayaan stated that Islam requires Muslims to pray five times a day.

ED: On that, let me make two points. You said that Sister Azizah in your school said that unless you pray and fast you are not a Muslim. That's a very literal, Wahhabi approach. This brings to mind a hadith in which a Bedoin came to the Prophet and said, "The ways of Islam are difficult for me. So tell me a way in which Islam is easy for me." (COMMENT: for the word "ways" Ed used the plural form of the Arabic word "sharia", illustrating his earlier assertion that the sharia is not a single body of unchanging law but a collection of teachings both fluid and adaptable). The Prophet replied, "As long as your tongue is moist with the mention of God, that is enough." So he's not asking us to pray and fast...after the Prophet passed away there were two hundred years of deciding what it means to be a Muslim. But the second point is really important, and it is something that you and others talk about repeatedly, that the Prophet married a girl who was nine years old. He didn't, and I hope that somehow tonight it's rectified and it's not repeated again. In the Battle of Badr, which took place after the Prophet and his Companions moved to Medinah from Mecca, Aisha took part in that battle. Those who took part in the battle were all adults, post-pubescent. There's a very strong narrative to say that this girl, who the Prophet allegedly married, was not nine, but may very well have been post-pubescent, perhaps 15 or 16. It's a disputed matter. So at least accept the fact that it is a disputed matter."

My comments:

We listeners are not as naive and uninformed as we were a few years ago. By googling "Aisha" or "Ayesha" I can be looking in less than a minute at dozens of hadith from the Sahih Bukhari and the Sahih Muslim that confirm her age. The Bukhari and Sahih collections have always been considered the most authoritative collections of hadith in Islam. In one of them, Aisha says, "Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him) married me when I was six years old, and I was admitted to his house when I was nine years old." Several others repeat Aisha's narratation that the Prophet married her when she was six years old and he consummated his marriage when she was nine years old, and then she remained with him until his death nine years later. Still another informs us that Aisha's father was surprised when Muhammad told him he wanted to marry his daughter. It says, "The Prophet asked Abu Bakr for 'Aisha's hand in marriage. Abu Bakr said "But I am your brother." The Prophet said, "You are my brother in Allah's religion and His Book, but she (Aisha) is lawful for me to marry." Aisha also said Muhammad had dreams of her even before this, i.e. when she was even younger, "Allah's Apostle said to me, "You were shown to me twice (in my dream) before I married you. I saw an angel carrying you in a silken piece of cloth, and I said to him, 'Uncover (her),' and behold, it was you. I said (to myself), 'If this is from Allah, then it must happen." In another hadith Aisha said she was playing on the swing when Muhammad came to get her. In still another she said that, even after her marriage, "I used to play with the dolls in the presence of the Prophet, and my girl friends also used to play with me. When Allah's Apostle used to enter they used to hide themselves, but the Prophet would call them to join and play with me." Sahih Muslim reports, "Allah's Apostle married her when she was seven years old, and she was taken to his house as a bride when she was nine, and her dolls were with her; and when he (the Holy Prophet) died she was eighteen years old." In still another Bukhari hadith, Aisha stated, "I never remembered my parents believing in any religion other than the true religion (i.e. Islam)." It seems more likely that a young girl, rather than a teenager, would not remember the circumstances of her parents' conversion that had taken place some years before.

Ignoring all this historical evidence, Ed uses the disjointed argument that: (A) Only adults could fight in Muhammad's battles; (B) Aisha was at the Battle of Badr which occurred within a year or two of her marriage; (C) Aisha therefore must have been an adult. This is the logic of "All bananas are yellow; this is yellow; therefore, this must be a banana." The more unpalatable probability for western Muslims to accept is that Aisha was at Badr not as a teenage warrior but as a much younger nighttime companion to her husband. She herself gives evidence of this in Ibn Ishaq's "The Life of Muhammad". He records Aisha saying on p. 494, "When the apostle intended to go on an expedition, he cast lots between his wives which of them should accompany him. He did this on the occasion of the raid on Beni al-Mustaliq and the lot fell on me, so the apostle took me out." Aisha then went on to explain that in these situations the wives would not eat much, so they would not be overly heavy and a burden to the men who had to lift their litter onto the camel. The clear image given is not of her and Muhammad's other wives accompanying him as warriors, but as companions.

Although it is difficult for Western Muslims to admit Aysha's young age, it is not a problem for scholars from the Middle East. Years ago at Temple University I studied Islam with the late Dr. Ismail al-Faruqi. Among his many accomplishments was the translation into English of Muhammad Haykal's "The Life of Muhammad". Dr. al-Faruqi KNEW Muhammad's life. In class one day he was telling us about the wonderful relationship Muhammad had with Aisha. A Jewish fellow student raised her hand and asked, "Dr. al-Faruqi, wasn't Aisha only nine years old when Muhammad married her?" It's the only time I ever saw my Professor become flustered. He cleared his throat a few times and then said, "You must remember that women in the East mature younger than women in the West." But to his credit, even Dr. al-Faruqi acknowledged the fact of this young marriage and did not try to deny it as young Western Muslims do today.

The reason they do deny it is, of course, easy to understand. Not being Muslim, I'm not sure if they feel uncomfortable about the thought of the 54 year old Muhammad ejaculating into a 9 year old girl, but they know that Western Non-Muslims feel very uncomfortable with the idea. It leads to jokes such as, "What do you call a Catholic priest who has sex with a 9 year old girl? A pedophile. What do you call the founder of Islam who did the same thing? Khatem al-Anbiah (The Seal of the Prophets)."

In "No god but God", Reza Aslan repeats Ed Husain in this regard. Again overlooking all the hadith, Reza says, "While Muhammad's union with a nine-year-old girl may be shocking to our modern sensibilities, his betrothal to Aisha was just that: a betrothal. Aisha did not consummate her marriage to Muhammad until after reaching puberty, which is when every girl in Arabia without exception becomes eligile for marriage."

Having said the above, I want to point out that I am not "against" Ed Husain or Reza Aslan. I encourage their efforts to present a non-extremist, non-violent Islam, and to turn the hearts and minds of radicals or potential radicals towards moderation. I am glad that Ed left the Hizb ut-Tahrir, and I am very glad that Reza is studying Islam in California rather than Qom. I just don't think they will be successful unless they are willing to go a step further. The homepage of the website quilliamfoundation.org states, "Western Muslims should be free from the cultural baggage of the Indian subcontinent, or the political burdens of the Arab world." To that I would add that they must also "denounce and reject" (to steal a line from a recent Hillary - Obama debate) elements from the life of Muhammad that are incompatible with the values of Western Civilization. You cannot make Islam palatable by merely rewriting its history.

Posted by: ed at April 12, 2008 6:08 AM

[I]In some Islamic countries, the age of maturity can be 8 or 10 years. In Yemen, a girl might get her period at the age of 8. In cold countries, such as Russia, Belarus, Scandinavia, New Zealand, Canada, and so on, a girl might not reach maturity until she is 22 years old.[/I]

One never stop to be baffled by the profound knowledge about almost everything Islamic “scholars” show of, every time the open their mouth.

[I]The law in many countries permits girls to marry only from the age of 18. This is arbitrary legislation, not Islamic law. Why?[/I]

If our dear “scholar” had take a short break from the Koran and the aHadith and made some effort to learn just a tiny bit about the real world he might have noticed that 18 year often is the age children, including woman, reach lawful age and is free to make their own decisions. But of course in Islam woman never reach the stage adult independent human beings.

Of course we have to restrain our self and show superficial respect for eternal wisdom of Islam, and now they got UN to monitor so frivolous free speak won’t offend the Islamic “scholars”.

As a critic of Islam from Algeria did say:

[I]"Everything you need to know is in the Koran," repeat endlessly the religious "doctors" of al-Azhar [in Cairo] and other Arab universities. There is no scientific literature in the Arab world today. But there is a very flourishing publication of pseudo-science ... [/I]

Posted by: Engelbrekt at April 12, 2008 11:14 AM

"In some Islamic countries, the age of maturity can be 8 or 10 years. In Yemen, a girl might get her period at the age of 8. In cold countries, such as Russia, Belarus, Scandinavia, New Zealand, Canada, and so on, a girl might not reach maturity until she is 22 years old. She might not get her period until then. . . . Therefore, in these stupid countries, you rarely find girls aged 10 or 12 who are still virgins."

So says Dr. Abd Al-Hamid Al-'Ubeidi--hmm, clearly the honorific "doctor" does not stand for medical doctor.

Does he really believe any of this? That Yemeni girls routinely menstruate at eight, or that the average Canadian woman is still awaiting the onset of her period when she is old enough to vote, drink, and serve in the armed forces?

Hey, I tend to think that many girls are having sex too young. The idea, though, that in the West eight-year-old virgins are rare is so grotesque as to be laughable. Or it would be, if the good doctor were not intending to be taken seriously, and if his words were not used to sanction child rape.

Posted by: gravenimage at April 13, 2008 1:28 AM

This nitwit is a "scholar"?

He claims that girls in Yemen (and presumably other "hot" countries) often start to menstruate at age 8, while girls in cold countries like Russia or my own beloved Canada tend not to begin menstruation until much later, like around 22...would it were so! I for one would have been happy to have waited another 10 years. And the problem of teenage pregnancy would vanish overnight! Where does this junk science come from; does he just pluck it out of thin air?

And I very much doubt that menses onset at age 8 is very common in Yemen. The only factor, other than genetics, that seems to influence age of first menses is childhood nutrition, which explains why women in Western countries of previous generations started later, on average. The little girl in the picture in the preceding story does not look particularly well-nourished, certainly is not developed. To me she looks closer to 6 than 8.

Posted by: angloirishslav at April 14, 2008 6:35 AM

Islam has a very creepy view to sexuality. The reason they allow intercourse so young is because girls are considered women as soon as their menstrual cycle starts. Unbelieveable. A Muslim woman I know told me that in Egypt (where she's from) they cover their arms because if a man sees too much of a woman's skin "they will get heated up". I explained to her that men will get "heated up" no matter what. Reminds me of a famous quote from Madonna back in the 80s when she said even if she covered up her whole body her voice would still be sexy. Okay, Madonna...not the best model of healthy sexuality...but she was right on that point. Men and women were created to be attracted to each other. You just practice self-control. My Muslim acquaintance got very offended by me becuase she interpreted my comments about self-control to mean that I was saying Muslims don't have self-control. I never said that. I was speaking of the Christian perspective. Muslims can't have conservations where they are challenged by ideas foreign to Islam. You might as well go talk to a bale of hay.

Posted by: Madame Vengier at April 14, 2008 8:38 PM

Even among well-nourished westerners, a girl of eight or nine normally does not yet have anything that one might properly call a bosom.

At ten my elder daughter didn't yet need a bra; my second daughter will probably need a (very small) one at eleven.

A girl, even if she gets her period at ten and a half (and I know girls who have had that happen) still doesn't have a recognisably 'adult' womanly shape. What happens if she's 'married' and made pregnant, and her pelvis, because she hasn't even finished growing, is too small and immature to allow the baby to be born?

A man in his twenties or thirties, say, who is sexually attracted to a flat-chested eight or nine year old CHILD, or even to an only partly-developed twelve or thirteen year old, rather than to a voluptuous Renoir or Botticelli beauty, has got something badly wrong with him.

Are men in the Islamosphere so abnormal that they're freaked out by full-grown breasts and pubic and underarm hair? HELLOOOO - that's what grown women, you know, ADULTS, are supposed to look like.

My suspicion is that, once again, like so much in Islamic 'culture', it's all about POWER - and loading the dice. A man of twenty, thirty, or forty is still physically stronger than a grown woman his own age; but that man-woman power imbalance is just so much more in his favour, if his 'wife' is not a grown woman (who might hit back, or use her intelligence to outwit him) but a little eight, nine, ten, twelve year old child, a doll, a plaything, who in most cases [the exception being that game little lass in Yemen] can be tortured and frightened into total, abject submission.

Of course, the other possibility is that (whatever the rationalisations) the underage girl is actually desired because she resembles a boy...no female hips yet and no breasts to speak of.

Sick, sick, sick societies.

Posted by: dumbledoresarmy at April 16, 2008 5:37 AM