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Andy Bostom has a terrific piece, "A Study in Contrasts: Benedict, Tantawi, and the Jews," in National Review, showing the stark contrast between Pope Benedict XVI, who is routinely called a "Nazi," and Al-Azhar's Grand Sheikh Tantawi, who is a lot closer to really being one:
Last Friday, Pope Benedict XVI stopped at the Park Street Synagogue on the Upper East Side of Manhattan. The 81-year-old pontiff — a native of Germany whose father had been anti-Nazi — was forcibly enrolled in the Hitler Youth, and conscripted into the German army during the final months of World War II, before deserting in the war’s concluding days. With fitting poignancy, Rabbi Arthur Schneier, the Holocaust survivor who leads the synagogue, greeted Pope Benedict. Schneier, 78, lost his family in the Nazis’ Auschwitz and Terezin concentration camps as a teenager. Schneier has headed the synagogue since 1962, while championing religious freedom and tolerance worldwide.Monsignor David Malloy, general secretary of the U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops, characterized the pope’s appearance — one day before Passover — thusly: “By this personal and informal visit, which is not part of his official program, His Holiness wishes to express his good will toward the local Jewish community as they prepare for Passover.”
Indeed this is the pope’s second visit to a synagogue as pontiff. On his initial papal trip abroad, in August 2005, Benedict visited a synagogue in Cologne, Germany, that had been destroyed by the Nazis. Rabbi Marvin Hier, founder and dean of the Wiesenthal Center, noted appositely, on that occasion, “The fact that in his very first foreign visit as Pope he went to the Cologne Synagogue is an indication of the importance that the Church attaches to its relationship with the Jews.” Within a year later, Benedict’s May 2006 address while visiting the Auschwitz-Birkenau concentration camp included a blistering rebuke and condemnation of those who would persecute Jews, and a lucid presentation of the phenomenon of anti-Semitism, particularly as it was manifested in the unspeakable horrors of Auschwitz:
Deep down, those vicious criminals, by wiping out this people, wanted to kill the God who called Abraham, who spoke on Sinai and laid down principles to serve as a guide for mankind, principles that are eternally valid.Earlier, writing in December 2000, the future pope (then Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger) affirmed his close alignment with the teachings of the Second Vatican Council, and the ecumenical thought of his predecessor and dear friend, Pope John Paul II. Ratzinger’s statement reiterates this “new vision of Jewish-Christian relations,” and even acknowledges a role for Christian anti-Semitism in the Holocaust itself:
Down through the history of Christianity, already-strained relations deteriorated further, even giving birth in many cases to anti-Jewish attitudes, which throughout history have led to deplorable acts of violence. Even if the most recent, loathsome experience of the Shoah was perpetrated in the name of an anti-Christian ideology, which tried to strike the Christian faith at its Abrahamic roots in the people of Israel, it cannot be denied that a certain insufficient resistance to this atrocity on the part of Christians can be explained by an inherited anti-Judaism present in the hearts of not a few Christians.He then implores that a new relationship be forged between the Church and Israel out of the tragic ashes of the Holocaust, based upon overcoming “every kind of anti-Judaism,” and engaging in sincere, meaningful dialogue.
As Pope Benedict, this commitment and its constructive impact were re-affirmed in a Passover greeting to the Jewish community, issued officially during his visit to Washington, D.C. last Thursday.
In contrast to the pope, consider Muhammad Sayyid Tantawi, the current Grand Imam of Al-Azhar University in Cairo, Egypt. For more than a thousand years, since its founding in 792 A.D., Al-Azhar, has served as the academic shrine — much as Mecca is the religious shrine — of the global Sunni Muslim community (Sunnis are about 90 percent of Muslims).
Tantawi’s Ph.D. thesis, Banu Israil fi al-Quran wa-al-Sunnah (Jews in the Koran and the Traditions), was published in 1968-69. In 1980 he became the head of the Tafsir (Koranic Commentary) Department of the University of Medina, Saudi Arabia — a position he held until 1984. Tantawi became Grand Mufti of Egypt in 1986, and a decade later he took his current post as Grand Imam.
My forthcoming book The Legacy of Islamic Antisemitism includes extensive, first-time English translations of Jews in the Koran and the Traditions. In the 700-page treatise, Tantawi wrote these words:
[The] Koran describes the Jews with their own particular degenerate characteristics, i.e. killing the prophets of Allah [Koran 2:61/ 3:112], corrupting His words by putting them in the wrong places, consuming the people’s wealth frivolously, refusal to distance themselves from the evil they do, and other ugly characteristics caused by their deep-rooted lasciviousness. . . . Only a minority of the Jews keep their word [Koranic citations here]. . . . All Jews are not the same. The good ones become Muslims [Koran 3:113], the bad ones do not.These are the expressed, “carefully researched” views on Jews held by the nearest Muslim equivalent to a pope. Tantawi has not mollified such hatemongering beliefs since becoming the Grand Imam, as his statements on “dialogue” with Jews (“I still believe in everything written in that dissertation”), the Jews as “enemies of Allah, descendants of apes and pigs,” and the legitimacy of homicide bombing of Jews make clear.
Unfortunately, Tantawi’s anti-Semitic formulations are well-grounded in classical, mainstream Islamic theology. The Koranic depiction of the Jews — their traits deemed both infallible and timeless — highlights, in verse 2:61 (repeated in verse 3:112), the centrality of the Jews “abasement and humiliation,” and being “laden with God’s anger.” Koranic verses 5:60 and 5:78 describe the Jews’ transformation into apes and swine (5:60), or apes alone (2:65 / 7:166), having been “cursed by the tongue of David, and Jesus, Mary’s son” (5:78). Moreover, forcing Jews, in particular, to pay the Koranic poll tax “tribute” (as per verse 9:29), “readily,” while “being brought low,” is consistent with their overall humiliation and abasement in accord with Koran 2:61, and its directly related verses.
An additional, much larger array of anti-Jewish Koranic motifs build to a denouement (as if part of a theological indictment, conviction, and sentencing process) concluding with an elaboration of the “ultimate sin” committed by the Jews (they are among the devil’s minions [Koran 4:60], accursed by God [Koran 4:47]), and their appropriate punishment: As per Koran 98:6, “The unbelievers among the People of the Book and the pagans shall burn forever in the fire of Hell. They are the vilest of all creatures.”
However, the Koranic origins of Islamic anti-Semitism are not a justification for the unreformed, unrepentant modern application of these hateful motifs pace Tantawi. Within days of the Netanya homicide bombing massacre on a Passover seder night in 2002, for example, Tantawi issued an abhorrent endorsement of so-called “martyrdom operations,” even when directed at Israeli civilians....
Read it all.
Posted by Robert at April 23, 2008 1:45 PM
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Thanks for posting Bostom at National Review, Robert. My ISP is blocking his website.
Posted by: Connie![[TypeKey Profile Page]](http://www.jihadwatch.org/dhimmiwatch/nav-commenters.gif)
at April 23, 2008 3:56 PM
Well, that would be the difference between the Vicar of Christ and being a mere man fronting for an unholy belief system.
I know it's impolite to not bow to religous relativism, but the Pope is not like other religous leaders, and the Catholic Church is, as they say in Nicene, the head of the one holy catholic and apostolic Church.
Posted by: dm60462 at April 23, 2008 4:12 PM
dm60462 ~
Yes. And the Holy Spirit guided the Cardinals to the right man for this critical time.
Posted by: Connie at April 23, 2008 6:35 PM
"The 81-year-old pontiff — a native of Germany whose father had been anti-Nazi— was forcibly enrolled in the Hitler Youth, and conscripted into the German army during the final months of World War II, before deserting in the war’s concluding days."
Most informative, so far as I know the MSM in Britain have never mentioned these details but only made references to the Hitler Youth, implying he was a willing member.
Posted by: Fred at April 23, 2008 6:56 PM
Fred:
"Most informative, so far as I know the MSM in Britain have never mentioned these details but only made references to the Hitler Youth, implying he was a willing member."
Then you're woefully ill-informed, Fred. Every article that I've ever read in the British press which has referred to Benedict's time in the HJ has made it clear that he was an unwilling draftee.
Posted by: Matamoros at April 23, 2008 8:03 PM
Matamorosm, why does this pope want Catholics to pray for my conversion to Christianity. This is wrong, is it not?
Posted by: monk at April 23, 2008 8:11 PM
Fred, actually Ratzinger deserted, which took enormous courage, considering. His family was anti-Nazi.
monk, why is it wrong? No one is forcing you to do anything.
Posted by: Connie at April 23, 2008 8:25 PM
Connie, it shows contempt. Doesn't it? The Pope believes I am not right with God like he is. He is saying I worship a false god. Unlike him. He thinks the Jews are condemned and utterly disgraced. Benedict thinks the Jews are in need of saving. Otherwise why is he doing this?
Posted by: monk at April 23, 2008 8:40 PM
monk, the questions you are asking is not for this site, but, I should ask, where has Pope Benedict say that "the Jews are condemned and utterly disgraced"?
If you have something, please post, but in the mean time:
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/biography/Ratzinger.html
a passage here:
--------------
Rabbi David Rosen, the international director of interreligious affairs for the American Jewish Committee, said the choice of Ratzinger as Pope would bring continuity to Catholic-Jewish relations. “He has a deep commitment to this issue. And his own national background makes him sensitive to the dangers of anti-Semitism and the importance of Jewish-Catholic reconciliation,” Rosen said
Rabbi Israel Singer, chairman of the World Jewish Congress, called Ratzinger the architect of the “ideological policy to recognize, to have full relations with Israel.”
Cardinal Ratzinger played a key role on a number of issues related to Judaism and the Holocaust during the pontificate of John Paul II involved. For example, he personally prepared Memory and Reconciliation, the 1999 document outlining the church's historical “errors” in its treatment of Jews.
Ratzinger also authorized the 2002 publication, “The Jewish People and the Holy Scriptures,” prepared by the Pontifical Biblical Commission. That 210-page report was seemingly buried upon publication, but contained several important expressions of Church doctrine. For example, it said “the Jewish messianic wait is not in vain” and that Jews and Christians share their wait for the Messiah, although Jews are waiting for the first coming and Christians for the second. The report also expressed regret that certain passages in the Christian Bible condemning individual Jews were used to justify anti-Semitism. It also stressed the importance of the Torah for Christians.
“He has shown this sensitivity countless times, in meetings with Jewish leadership and in important statements condemning anti-Semitism and expressing profound sorrow for the Holocaust,” said Abraham H. Foxman, Anti-Defamation League National Director. “We remember with great appreciation his Christmas reflections on December 29, 2000, when he memorably expressed remorse for the anti-Jewish attitudes that persisted through history, leading to ‘deplorable acts of violence’ and the Holocaust.
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Anyways....
Look at it from the otherside: should the Pope not want everyone to be saved? What kind of Pope would not want to share the gifts of Jesus' death and ressurection to mankind? To pray for this causes no harm and does not show contempt. You could just laugh.
at April 23, 2008 9:16 PM
monk, it doesn't show contempt at all. It shows love. He just wants to share, but it is entirely up to you. I don't know what your religion is, but most of my conservative Jewish friends are fine with my prayers. They understand why I say them. They know I say them because I love them. And they allow me to say them because they love me too. It works out, actually.
Posted by: Connie at April 23, 2008 9:17 PM
Monk:
"Matamoros, why does this pope want Catholics to pray for my conversion to Christianity."
LOL - I'm afraid you've read me all wrong, khaver. Do as I do - if any guy tries to talk me into converting, I tell him that I’ll be happy to listen to his argument, as long as he’ll let me perform a bris on him afterwards. So far, I’ve never had anyone accept (although I keep my box cutter handy, just in case).
In seriousness though, I was merely correcting the falsehood about the British press. Jihadwatch is a forum for everybody to question Islam, not for non-Muslims to start questioning each others' faiths. We should all respect that.
at April 23, 2008 10:18 PM
PUhleeze!! I won't hold the Pope responsible for what his parents and his elders should have done in 1933 when he was two, but spare me the anti-Nazi label. Almost every German, save the blatant Nazis, was anti-Nazi at the end of the war, and even some of the diehard Nazis were having a crises of conscience as the Allied airforce darkened the Reich's skies and armies were approaching from east and west. "We didn't know what those awful Nazis were doing, we had a Jewish friend, poor Schlomo! We didn't like Hitler at all, sir, we just did what we were told."
Only a German who actively stood up to the Nazis or conducted some sort of underground operation ala Schindler or Col. Stulpenagel deserves the title anti-Nazi.
But as far as that goes, at least 99% of the Germans disowned the Nazis. Unlike tons of Muslims today who wished their Aryan Uncle finished the job, but claim the Holocaust was a myth and they are the real victims of the Zionist Holocaust.
at April 23, 2008 10:42 PM
Most informative, so far as I know the MSM in Britain have never mentioned these details but only made references to the Hitler Youth, implying he was a willing member.
Posted by: Fred
---
Nothing like worrying about those damn Nazi Krauts to keep one's mind off the jihadists living next door..
Posted by: Ummah Gummah at April 23, 2008 11:47 PM
Matamorosm, why does this pope want Catholics to pray for my conversion to Christianity. This is wrong, is it not?
Posted by: monk
---
Why? He's only praying. He isn't bombing.. Let him pray and go your own way.. but when the time comes we all must stand as one.
Posted by: Ummah Gummah at April 23, 2008 11:48 PM
I don't know Ummah, but when someone is praying that I convert to his religion, it means he doesn't respect my religion. I don't know of any Jews who pray that the Pope or Catholics in general convert to Judaism. That was the reason the Church protected the Jews through the Middle Ages so they could coerce them into converting to RC. True, it's better than blowing Jews up. But if you respect someone's religion and culture, that means you value it as much as your own and you leave it be. Not try to pull some bait and switch. Time to clean up your house a bit instead of commenting about the neighbor's messy yard.
Posted by: Dumbo at April 24, 2008 12:44 AM
"[The] Koran describes the Jews with their own particular degenerate characteristics, i.e. killing the prophets of Allah [Koran 2:61/ 3:112], corrupting His words by putting them in the wrong places, consuming the people’s wealth frivolously, refusal to distance themselves from the evil they do, and other ugly characteristics caused by their deep-rooted lasciviousness. . . . Only a minority of the Jews keep their word [Koranic citations here]. . . . All Jews are not the same. The good ones become Muslims [Koran 3:113], the bad ones do not."
- Tantawi
This is projection.
Substitute "Jews" with "Muslims" in the above passage and we have the truth.
So often we see truly demonic people projecting their own vices onto those they hate.
The same was true of Hitler.
at April 24, 2008 4:21 AM
Look at it from the otherside: should the Pope not want everyone to be saved? What kind of Pope would not want to share the gifts of Jesus' death and ressurection to mankind? To pray for this causes no harm and does not show contempt. You could just laugh.
Posted by: npabga at April 23, 2008 9:16 PM
npabga, why do you think Jews are not or will not be saved? God made an everlasting covenant with the children of Israel. Our covenant is our justification; it is our righteousness just as many Christians believe Jesus is their righteousness. Might I ask why you do not recognize our ancient covenant?
at April 24, 2008 8:02 AM
"And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd." John 10:16
I know no one asked me, and I know this is a secular site. I'm not attempting to proselytize, here--quite the opposite.
I've always taken this verse to mean that more than one group of people are destined for heaven, salvation, communion with the Lord--call it whatever you like. When the time is right, all will be settled.
Christians and Jews (and only God knows how many others) are merely His sheep in different folds. My two cents' worth, anyway.
at April 24, 2008 10:54 AM
Monk, Moadim Le'Simcha from Yerushalayim Ir HaKodesh.
I'm in the habit here of responding whenever anyone misquotes from Tanach, just to set the record straight because I personally view such quotes from Scriptures to be a defamation of Judaism and a false corruption for alterior motives on the back of our Torah.
However, that's as far as I go. If someone wants to quote any other religion's books, I don't really care unless it's done with the intent of actually attempting to harm someone else.
It's quite old news what Christianity believes in vis a vis the Jews. I couldn't care less what they pray. We ourselves say in the Aleinu prayer "She'heim Mishtachavim La'Hevel Varik U'Mitpallelim El Eil Lo Yoshiyah." (Actually that was originally censored out of the prayer by the Church and was not said for 100's of years). So let them wish and pray for what they want. We wish and pray otherwise just the same. Think of the Amidah prayers on Rosh Hashanah and Yom Kipur.
In contrast, I'm not talking about tolerating active missionarizing by mostly Evangelical Christians, which is becoming a chronic malady especially here in Israel. I'm talking about what Christians believe between themselves about others. As far as the latter goes, that's not the topic up for discussion here.
Chag Sameach!
Posted by: Shy Guy at April 24, 2008 11:48 AM
Please do not confuse the Pope's liberal attitude toward Jews with Judiaism as it is his belief that Rome has replaced Jerusalem as the seat of God. That is the reason for praying for the conversion of Jews. In addition, he is as dhimmified as the liberal Jews and the Israeli establishment who also believe Israel should make peace with her sworn mortal enemies. This will definitely put Jerusalem assunder. I'll bet his recent rabbi host is also clueless about this as he also reaches out to Islam and the Catholic Church.
Posted by: elvis at April 24, 2008 1:10 PM
I'll bet his recent rabbi host is also clueless about this as he also reaches out to Islam and the Catholic Church.Posted by: elvis at April 24, 2008 1:10 PM
at April 24, 2008 1:17 PM
Wikipedia: Rabbi Arthur Schneier.
Posted by: Shy Guy at April 24, 2008 1:22 PM
Monk, Moadim Le'Simcha from Yerushalayim Ir HaKodesh.
I'm in the habit here of responding whenever anyone misquotes from Tanach, just to set the record straight because I personally view such quotes from Scriptures to be a defamation of Judaism and a false corruption for alterior motives on the back of our Torah.
Chag Sameach!
Posted by: Shy Guy
What are the misquotes from Tahach?
at April 24, 2008 2:43 PM
Monk, there have been several posts on various threads here in the past. I do not have links to them. I am not referring to this current discussion.
Posted by: Shy Guy at April 24, 2008 2:48 PM
Oh OK. I thought you were referring to my comment that the Jews are (for lack of a better term) justified by our ancient covenant, as opposed to faith or belief in the Christian savior.
Posted by: monk at April 24, 2008 3:13 PM
monk, speaking as a non-theologian and a person with no education in this field, the Catholic teaching (the one of which I know at least little) is that the Covenant with the Jews is still in effect. Sorry if what I said led you to believe otherwise since this was not my intention when I wrote that.
Please note that a Christian view of salvation (which I was trying to stress as the gift of Jesus' death and resurrection) with its focus on an afterlife and heaven and hell is not a focus of Judaism. Therefore when I wrote "What kind of Pope would not want to share the gifts of Jesus' death and resurrection to mankind" this is with regards to the "New” Covenant of eternal life to all mankind while the "Old" (but still valid) Covenant is for the Jews.
Jews and Christians just have different views on what it means to be saved or God's people, etc.
But now one may ask, why pray for the Jews?
No one comes to the Father except through me. If you know me, you will know my Father also." (John 14:6-7)
I guess that would be why. It is what it is.
And whatever we pray for should be of no concern (I myself haven't prayed for the Jews' conversion, but I don't like when people try to limit my own freedom of thought). There is nothing wrong with praying, it doesn't oppress anyone.
some additional reading if you want:
to cut and paste from:
------
More recently, Cardinal Walter Kasper, President of the Pontifical Commission for the Religious Relations with the Jews, explained this practice. In a formal statement made first at the seventeenth meeting of the International Catholic-Jewish Liaison Committee in May 2001, and repeated later in the year in Jerusalem, Cardinal Kasper spoke of "mission" in a narrow sense to mean "proclamation" or the invitation to baptism and catechesis. He showed why such initiatives are not appropriately directed at Jews:
The term mission, in its proper sense, refers to conversion from false gods and idols to the true and one God, who revealed himself in the salvation history with His elected people. Thus mission, in this strict sense, cannot be used with regard to Jews, who believe in the true and one God. Therefore, and this is characteristic, there exists dialogue but there does not exist any Catholic missionary organization for Jews.
As we said previously, dialogue is not mere objective information; dialogue involves the whole person. So in dialogue Jews give witness of their faith, witness of what supported them in the dark periods of their history and their life, and Christians give account of the hope they have in Jesus Christ. In doing so, both are far away from any kind of proselytism, but both can learn from each other and enrich each other. We both want to share our deepest concerns to an often -disoriented world that needs such witness and searches for it.20
From the point of view of the Catholic Church, Judaism is a religion that springs from divine revelation. As Cardinal Kasper noted, "God’s grace, which is the grace of Jesus Christ according to our faith, is available to all. Therefore, the Church believes that Judaism, i.e. the faithful response of the Jewish people to God’s irrevocable covenant, is salvific for them, because God is faithful to his promises."21
This statement about God’s saving covenant is quite specific to Judaism. Though the Catholic Church respects all religious traditions and through dialogue with them can discern the workings of the Holy Spirit, and though we believe God's infinite grace is surely available to believers of other faiths, it is only about Israel’s covenant that the Church can speak with the certainty of the biblical witness. This is because Israel’s scriptures form part of our own biblical canon and they have a "perpetual value . . . that has not been canceled by the later interpretation of the New Testament."22
According to Roman Catholic teaching, both the Church and the Jewish people abide in covenant with God. We both therefore have missions before God to undertake in the world. The Church believes that the mission of the Jewish people is not restricted to their historical role as the people of whom Jesus was born "according to the flesh" (Rom 9:5) and from whom the Church’s apostles came. As Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger recently wrote, "God’s providence … has obviously given Israel a particular mission in this ‘time of the Gentiles.’"23 However, only the Jewish people themselves can articulate their mission "in the light of their own religious experience."24
----
can we move on with counterjihad?
Posted by: npabga at April 24, 2008 4:46 PM
can we move on with counterjihad?
Posted by: npabga
Please. Pope Benedict supports a Palestinian jihadist state in the Holy Land; one dedicated to Israel's destruction. How can you say, "can we move on with counter jihad," when the Vatican actively supports the jihad against the Jews? When the this Pope and the previous Pope meets and prays with jihadists like Yasir Arafat and arch-terrorist and Holocaust denier, Mahmoud Abbas?
You say, "I don't like when people try to limit my own freedom of thought."
Then you don't like the Almighty God, because he commands us not to covet anything that belongs to our neighbor; not to covet his house or his car or his man servant, his maid servant, his wife, etc. God commands us not to hate our brother in our heart. You don't like God limiting your freedom of thought.
I submit to you, perhaps you do not like God.
Posted by: monk at April 24, 2008 10:04 PM
monk, again, this is not a Jewish-Christian debate forum.
But to respond...to your last post.
With regards to the Pope supporting a Jihadist state, and if this state means Mahmoud Abbas' Palestinian National Authority, then unfortunately every state, even Ehud Olmert have been working towards this goal. So then he is wrong like EVERY OTHER POLITICIAN. And IF this Jihadist state is HAMAS, then please, by all means, post some proof. Oh, and "actively support the Jihad" (your words). Excluding that he prays, no doubt for peace (unless you can read his mind like you think you can read my mind), with some dirty terrorists, does not mean he is praying for Israel's destruction? As an aside, Jesus sat down with tax collectors and prostitutes, so does this mean he supports them or maybe that "It is not those who are healthy who need a physician, but those who are sick"? So besides praying for peace, could you make an itemized list, of how the Vatican supports Jihad and how this would compare with Israel's biggest supporter, the US?
As for your second part, me saying "limiting freedom of thought" is because some posters feel they have a right to decide what is ok and what is wrong to pray for because they find it contemptuous. I understand that is how it may come across but praying for others salvation is a basic part of Christianity. It's an obligation. You don't have to respect this obligation, but allow us to do it in the quite of our homes without slander. An old lady praying with her Rosary 5km from you is no threat. How do I "hate" (your words)? How do I "covet"(likewise)? (Sorry to throw the New Testament around) Mathew 5:27-28 “You have heard that it was said, 'Do not commit adultery. But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart.” I try my best to limit bad thoughts, but praying for people is NOT a bad thought. I only follow the teachings of God in the New Testament as well as the Old, but you say I hate God... is your skin too thin that it bothers that people pray for you? Do you know what I think?
Don't be so sensitive like the Muslims. Matamoros and Shy Guy handle it well. Matamoros with humour. Next time offer a Bris and move on. I've only read the Aleinu prayer that Shy Guy talked above (I couldn't find the other ones). And you know something? Jews pray away! You have a rich heritage and please do what you want and don't stop it for any PC reasons. PC is the death of us. IF a Jewish prayer is offensive to other nations...who cares? Neither Jews nor Christians are beheading, blowing up, or crashing planes into buildings. So monk, please allow us to pray. I only am defending why we pray, not trying to convert.
The more I think about it, the more I think you have an axe to grind. You still haven't answered: where has Pope Benedict said, "the Jews are condemned and utterly disgraced"? You said this above, and I am calling you out on this, and you have not responded. Either post proof or withdraw this nonsense. If you do neither, then I can't respond to anymore of your posts.
Take care and feel free to pray for me- it's your right.
at April 25, 2008 1:17 AM
npabga, you wrote: "With regards to the Pope supporting a Jihadist state, and if this state means Mahmoud Abbas' Palestinian National Authority, then unfortunately every state, even Ehud Olmert have been working towards this goal. So then he is wrong like EVERY OTHER POLITICIAN.
"....So besides praying for peace, could you make an itemized list, of how the Vatican supports Jihad and how this would compare with Israel's biggest supporter, the US?
"....You still haven't answered: where has Pope Benedict said, "the Jews are condemned and utterly disgraced"? You said this above, and I am calling you out on this, and you have not responded. Either post proof or withdraw this nonsense. If you do neither, then I can't respond to anymore of your posts."
Maybe condemned and utterly disgraced is too strong a description. I retract it. Still, the fact that the pope authorizes a prayer for the Jews' salvation infers there is something incomplete and lacking in our faith. As one poster wrote, it demonstrates a lack of respect for our faith and our walk with God. Surely you are aware, the church has a bloody past where it comes to the Jews. We suffered crusades, pogroms, persecutions, ghettos, inquisitions, etc., at the hands of the church. Many scholars maintain, the church's historic anti-Semitic disposition toward the Jews laid the the groundwork for the Holocaust. Nazis like Julius Streicher (Der Sturmer) made use of anti-Jewish church imagery as do many in the Muslim world today. I have read excerpts from Vatican publications, from Civilta Cattolica and L'Osservatore romano in the late nineteenth century, well into the nineteen twenties and thirties putting forth the notion that the Jews belonged to a separate race, that the Jews were a festering sore, eating away at society; "insolent children, dirty, thieves, liars ignoramuses, pests, and the scourge of those near and far...." Civilta cattolica came to be regarded as the unofficial voice of the Pope himself. Vatican's daily paper, L'Osservatore Romano, has been, perhaps still is the most authoritative source for Vatican perspectives on current events.
This is why it is important to note that the Vatican supports a Palestinian Muslim jihadist state dedicated to Israel's destruction. He prays for peace you say. May I suggest people who pray for peace with evil men, criminals and murderers, like Adolf Hitler, Mahmoud Abbas, Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, etc., are at least a bit naive?
You wrote: "With regards to the Pope supporting a Jihadist state, and if this state means Mahmoud Abbas' Palestinian National Authority, then unfortunately every state, even Ehud Olmert have been working towards this goal. So then he is wrong like EVERY OTHER POLITICIAN."
I think this is my point and my problem with the Vatican's position. The Pope is supposed to be the Vicar of Christ on earth. He is supposed to be a holy man of God, not a man like "EVERY OTHER POLITICIAN." If we are to agree that the Vatican is a political entity and not a righteous, a moral or a Godly entity. If the pope is like every other politician, fine. This makes some sense out of the evil we are witnessing. So far as Ehud Olmert is concerned, he will be judged for his treasonous acts; for his betrayals and crimes. If not in this world, then in the world to come, as will George W. Bush for his criminal acts. There is nothing righteous, just, moral, Biblical or in keeping with our ancient prophets or the word of God in the Vatican's, Washington's, or George W. Bush's position visa vis the land of Israel. It is criminal plain and simple.
The prophet wrote, I believe of the last days:
"The LORD will go forth like a warrior, He will arouse His zeal like a man of war. He will utter a shout, yes, He will raise a war cry. He will prevail against His enemies.
"I have kept silent for a long time, I have kept still and restrained Myself. Now like a woman in labor I will groan, I will both gasp and pant.
"I will lay waste the mountains and hills And wither all their vegetation; I will make the rivers into coastlands And dry up the ponds."
If you wish to believe I have an ax to grind, that's OK. I submit to you, the Almighty God has an ax to grind with the nations of the earth and it would appear you side with nations who are set on the destruction of Israel. Am I wrong?
at April 25, 2008 6:59 AM
If I may remark: it is, perhaps, a compliment to Robert Spencer's website that Jews feel safe enough, here, to openly express anger and quarrel with Christians.
However: it may be worth reflecting upon a passage from the interview with Bill Warner of 'Centre for the Study for Political Islam', at Frontpage, linked on one of the recent discussion threads .
Here it is:
"In the war to defend ourselves against political Islam, the Christians are like the regular army. The Jews are like the Marines. We need the intellectual power and influence of the Jews.
"Jews and Christians could unite on a project that could save us. There is an enormous historical suffering in the Tears of Jihad. This material has never been collected. Jews have experience in documenting the Holocaust. They could work with Christians to collect and record the suffering. There is both old and ancient history to be collected and cataloged, along with the suffering of those alive today. This history must be preserved.
"We can see we face an up-hill battle when it comes to unifying Christians and Jews to war against political Islam. It was Mohammed who said that Christians are endlessly divided and Jews have hearts harder than rocks.
{I think Bill doesn't see it all, though. I also think Mohammed, or whoever/ whatever 'Mohammed' was, deeply feared an alliance between Jews and Christians, for at some level, mad and hostile though he was, he sensed our affinity.
In 5: 17 Mohammed sneers at Jews and Christians for their claim to be children of G-d: "the Jews and Christians say, 'we are the children of allah and His loved ones".
In Surah 5: 51 ha-Meshugga made a truly astonishing statement - astonishing because it displays apparent obliviousness to the obvious hostility that many Byzantine Christians practised toward Jews -
"Believers, take neither Jews nor Christians for your friends. They are friends with one another." This SEEMS to describe 'friendship' between Jews and Christians, rather than just Jews with Jews or Christians with Christians...I may be wrong, but this is the natural sense of Dawood's translation and Yusuf Ali's doesn't contradict it - 'take not the Jews and Christians for their friends and protectors; they are but friends and protectors to each other.'
Paradoxically, that psychopathic liar, Muhammad, saw a kinship between Jews and Christians that we ourselves mostly haven't recognised. That talk about us being 'friends to each other' was, perhaps, not a description of something he'd seen...but something he feared.
And if he feared it...then it might be a very good idea for us, Christians and Jews, to make his fears come true.}
Warner goes on:
"The actual task of attacking [i.e. challenging and re-educating] dhimmis is not so hard. It is assembling the army that is hard.
"Can evangelicals feel sympathy for the suffering of the Orthodox and Catholics?
"Many Jews don’t like the fact that they have to accept help from Christians for Israel.
"Historically Catholics have bad blood with the Orthodox. The first instinct of any Christian when they meet another Christian is to notice how they disagree about doctrine—endlessly divided. In the face of these divisions, we must assemble an army and prove Mohammed wrong.
"We haven’t even talked about the secular kafirs. Kafirs are a quarrelsome lot and never seem to be happier than when they argue with other kafirs about politics. But the simple fact is that if all kafirs don’t unite against political Islam, Islam will unite them all when their descendants bow down and face Mecca at the call to prayer."
I think he has a point.
Posted by: dumbledoresarmy at April 25, 2008 7:26 AM
dumbledoresarmy, you may find this difficult to believe. I have allied with and I do ally with my Christian friends. I have pro-life Catholic friends. I believe they are friends. I have been active in our pro-life movement. I have stood side by side my Christian neighbors protesting the slaughter of the unborn in our local abortion mill.
I understand the importance of alliances against an evil like the global jihad. I want allies. If you are my friend and ally then you will understand what I am writing here.
That is why it is important to point out the Pope's position with respect to the Holy One of Israel. Like self-professed Christian, George W. Bush, this Vicar of Christ supports the establishment of a Palestinian terrorist-killer state in the Holy Land. This is clearly at odds with all the warnings in our Bible. Nevertheless, this pope supports it.
If you will please allow me to quote from your own scripture:
"He who is not with Me is against Me; and he who does not gather with Me scatters."
It is as simple as that.
Posted by: monk at April 25, 2008 7:53 AM
This is what really irritates me about our so-called Christian friends.
Bush yesterday in the White House with arch-terrorist and Holocaust denier, Mahmoud Abbas:
"The President (Mahmoud Abbas) is a man of peace. He’s a man of vision. He rejects the idea of using violence to achieve objectives, which distinguishes him from other people in the region.”
This is an absolute bald-faced lie. This U.S. president is shameful! He is a disgrace. On the one hand, Bush claims we are at war with the jihadists. On the other hand he meets and holds hands with cold-blooded jihadist killers like Abbas. It’s criminal. One day I pray the man will be tried and punished for his crimes against the Jews as well as his crimes against his own nation.
at April 25, 2008 8:39 AM
monk,
"Maybe condemned and utterly disgraced is too strong a description. I retract it." Throwing "maybe" in there is good politi-speak. If you would like to fine tune it, be my guest. But retraction appreciated.
The Jewish Covenant with God is still standing, still valid, and as far as I know (again, not a theologian), Christians (or Catholics since I know this religion a bit better) are not called to convert Jews because you already believe in the one God. Whatever Christians believe should in no way detract the feeling of truth you have for the Jewish tradition. In addition, if it seems presumptuous if Christians think their "way" is better, then sorry. I can't think of a religion that thinks others ways/ideologies/religions are better and those that think other religions are equal leads to PC ecumenical councils with Muslims. And as for the prayers to the Jews, Christians put a value on being with Christ, to know Christ, to be saved (our ideas of salvation are different) through Christ. Without this, we could not be Christians. It is what is is.
I am aware of the tradition of anti-Semitism in Europe, and the role the Church played in exacerbating it or by being a primary cause. No doubt the greatest sin of the Church.
A Pope praying with obvious sinners is still not support. If it may seem naive, then maybe it does. But prayer is for hope, and faith in God's power. We both know, you and I, that it seems naive. There are things that I find naive about many actions. But the Pope is not infallible when it comes to political issues. He is the Vicar of Christ for spiritual reasons and with regards to teaching and protecting the faith, as much as Jesus was a spiritual, not political leader. He is not all-knowing on the political science front. Thanks for the verses.
From wikipedia: In Catholic theology, papal infallibility is the dogma that, by action of the Holy Spirit, the Pope is preserved from even the possibility of error[1] when he solemnly declares or promulgates to the Church a dogmatic teaching on faith or morals as being contained in divine revelation, or at least being intimately connected to divine revelation.
He can do naive things, and things that seems naive. Should he more careful? Yes, it would be better not give additional fodder. But he is not focused on what it looks politically, (and therefore is not like every other political leader, though the result is the same externally) but to call people to peace and not to hate (like at ground zero).
If you feel his prayers will not turn the Muslims' hearts, then our prayers won't change the Jews' either (again I haven’t prayed for this).
“If you wish to believe I have an ax to grind, that's OK. I submit to you, the Almighty God has an ax to grind with the nations of the earth and it would appear you side with nations who are set on the destruction of Israel. Am I wrong?”
Yes, you are wrong. I don’t have to justify my opinions with you, but I will anyways. To show that we may have to agree to disagree. It is clear that I am pro-Israeli for posting on this site, but that may not be enough. I also support the security barrier and closed check points, but don’t support Olmert’s releasing of terrorists, non-response to the qassam rocket attacks, In addition I am against talks with Syria if the end result is “peace” for the Golan heights, against Israel signing any type of “Hudna” with Abbas or Hamas, Jerusalem should be undivided and part of Israel, and so on. I could continue listing and expanding, if you’d like. If I have led you to believe that I side with those nations who support the destruction of Israel, then post evidence.
Take care.
PS. Yes, agreed, Bush is an idiot.
at April 25, 2008 1:46 PM
npabga, you wrote: Maybe condemned and utterly disgraced is too strong a description. I retract it."
Throwing "maybe" in there is good politi-speak. If you would like to fine tune it, be my guest. But retraction appreciated."
I'm on the run. I have to make a delivery. I will respond to the rest of you post when I return this evening.
After I retracted it, I thought about it. Maybe I made a mistake retracting the description. I thought, "You know Monk, if I get any more grief, I will retract my retraction." Since you accuse me of good polit-speak, I will let my original thought stand. My guess is, this pope believes "unsaved" Jews are condemned by God and utterly disgraced in the eyes of God.
This has been standard Christian (yet not all Christians embrace this) teaching going all the way back to the early church fathers. St. Augustine believed this and clearly John Chrysostom taught this and worse.
"The synagogue," according to John Chrysostom, "is worse than a brothel... It is a den of scoundrels and the repair of wild beasts... a criminal assembly of Jews...a place of meeting for the assassins of Christ...the refuge of devils." Clearly they are of the Devil as the Gospel of John declares according to Chrysostom. Bishop Ambrose and others.
at April 25, 2008 3:27 PM
monk,I did not mean to give grief, but it's your call if you want to retract your retraction.
The reason I point out the "maybe" in your retraction is because you earlier said "He", as in Pope Benedict XVI, thought such things. See below:
Connie, it shows contempt. Doesn't it? The Pope believes I am not right with God like he is. He is saying I worship a false god. Unlike him. He thinks the Jews are condemned and utterly disgraced. Benedict thinks the Jews are in need of saving. Otherwise why is he doing this?
Posted by: monk at April 23, 2008 8:40 PM
As for the earlier Church fathers, I will not defend it, it is a remnent of the times, it has no place today, it does not follow the example of Jesus and does not represent the thoughts of our current Pope (the whole original point of the retraction).
I only asked for a retraction of what you said concerning the current Pope, and when I saw a 'maybe' I thought maybe you wanted to be more exacting in your language and was offering a way out for you.
Take care.
Can we agree to disagree?
Posted by: npabga at April 25, 2008 5:10 PM
npabga, I think this article helps to explain the difficulty I have with the Christian worldview of the Vatican by and large. It involves the Jewishness of the historical Jesus or lack thereof. Though this piece mostly concentrates on liberal vs. conservative Protestantism, clearly the Vatican and the pope fall into liberal worldview delineated in this piece:
http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1208870481681&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull
You wrote: "Yes, you are wrong.... It is clear that I am pro-Israeli for posting on this site, but that may not be enough. I also support the security barrier and closed check points, but don’t support Olmert’s releasing of terrorists, non-response to the qassam rocket attacks, In addition I am against talks with Syria if the end result is “peace” for the Golan heights, against Israel signing any type of “Hudna” with Abbas or Hamas, Jerusalem should be undivided and part of Israel, and so on. I could continue listing and expanding, if you’d like. If I have led you to believe that I side with those nations who support the destruction of Israel, then post evidence."
Then perhaps you are on Israel's side. What you've described above is not in the least this pope's position or the Vatican's position. Vatican would be against most, if not all, the things you've outlined.
at April 26, 2008 7:57 AM
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