They were probably incited to do this at the local mosque they faithfully attend every Friday.

Posted by: angloirishslav at May 10, 2008 12:24 AM

This is the sort of case that should be raised, point blank, with the highest authorities in Bangladesh, by every non-Muslim ambassador in the country.

It should be made ruthlessly clear, that we have absolute contempt for any country that winks at such wickedness. Hold Muslim Bangladesh, its government, finally responsible for this rape. Let there be consequences.

Sure: they're Muslims. The rape of a kafir girl to punish her father for sowing 'mischief' in the land, is, in the Muslim mind, not a crime at all; it's a perfectly 'good' thing, perfectly just and right, a little whore is being given the treatment she 'deserves'.

Nevertheless, down under that hideous Quranic programming-for-contempt-toward-kafir, there should be a remnant of the universal human program that disposes us to feel bad when others are angry with us. The anger just has to be loud enough, consistent enough, hot enough, to punch through that iron shell of Islam and make them afraid.

(And it should be made clear that the rage, the white-hot wrath, and the cancelling of aid and investments, from Infidel neighbours and trading partners, and CEOs of companies, and the sending home of Bangladeshi imams and students and ambassadors would have been exactly the same if the raped girl had been, not a Christian, but a Hindu, or a Buddhist, or one of the animist tribespeople from the Chittagong hill tracts).

If this girl does not receive justice - not sharia 'justice', but true justice, the sort of justice she would receive in a western country - then let the expulsions of Bangladeshi students and ambassadors begin, and the boycotting of Bangladeshi products.

NOTE: This sort of story (and it is one of many) should not just be circulating on a christian website.

It should be on the front pages of the tabloids in Western countries; it should be on talkback radio; it should be on tabloid TV, in all its horrifying detail - '13 YR OLD CHRISTIAN GIRL GANG-RAPED BY BENGALI MUSLIM THUGS'.

The kidnappings and rapes of Assyrian Christian girls in Mesopotamia, Syria and Turkey, and of Coptic Christian girls in Egypt should be hitting the headlines, too, day after day; as also the abductions and rapes of Hindu and Christian girls in Pakistan.

Egypt and Pakistan, for winking at such evils, should be suffering punishments of various kinds. Every time such a case reaches the ears of the west, cut off a bit more 'aid' aka jizya.

Posted by: dumbledoresarmy at May 10, 2008 3:03 AM

It is bad enough that such rampant crimes are religiously sanctioned within Islam, but what makes it truly outrageous is that the MSM gives them a pass in the name of "cultural sensitivity."

Posted by: Eastview at May 10, 2008 3:20 AM

"When Das initially went to police to file charges, he said, police were reluctant to register the case."

Let me guess: Muslim Police?

Posted by: pulsar182 at May 10, 2008 6:02 AM

Bangla Desh will be suffering from huge floods in coming decades. Possibly a quarter or a third of the low-lying plain will be flooded. Who will send relief? And who will be allowed into neighboring India? Let's make sure that the word goes out now, to Bangladesh:

The Infidels are watching, and waiting, and becoming angry. They are displeased, they are more than displeased, with the treatment meted out by Muslism to Motilal Das and his daughter. And God, too, is not happy that they have chosen the False Path of Islam. There is still time to choose another path. But they'd better do it soon. The rains will come, the seas will flood in, and nothing will stop it, but perhaps they will be not quite as deadly as they might be, if there are mass conversions to Christianity.

And in any case, it is only the powerful Infidels -- the West (seen as the "Christian West") and Hindu India -- that can rescue some of those who will be threatened by the rising seas.

Let's put the inevitable high tides to work. Let's exploit the situation, to undo the appeal of Islam, to weaken and demoralize, in any and every way possible, the Camp of Islam.

If local Muslims do not start to convert

Posted by: Hugh at May 10, 2008 7:11 AM

Amen!

Posted by: pulsar182 at May 10, 2008 8:04 AM

The Muslims know that Das and his family are good; worse for the Muslims!

Posted by: John C at May 10, 2008 8:09 AM

once again, Muslims prove they are nothing but pure hate...

"Area Muslims expressed their outrage at the brutal incident, and they are afraid that the assailants are backed by powerful people, Das said.:

yep, people who read and study the Qur'an, just like they do..

Posted by: pulsar182 at May 10, 2008 8:17 AM

Disgusting

Posted by: adobe at May 10, 2008 8:49 AM

Could this be a prelude to the entire family's murder?

I heard on a radio interview that Shari'a forbids putting a virgin to death, so in some Muslim countries, they repeatedly rape a "condemned" virgin so that they can then kill her.

From what the pastor said in the article, he only has one other child, a son ...

Posted by: Lori B. at May 10, 2008 11:56 AM

This story is very sad to read about. Pastor Das is an inspiration as someone who perseveres under the most difficult of circumstances. Doesn't it seem that the general media censors these stories? If word got out about the many horrifying incidents perpetrated by Muslims, with a wink from their governments, the populations of the West would come to understand the nature of this enemy. It appears the powers-that-be want people to remain uninformed. I am just incredulous that the media has chosen to turn a blind eye to the extreme suffering of Christians in Muslim lands, but I understand why. This media hates to create any sympathy for Christians or provide any rationale for action against the countries that support these abuses. The western media reports news on an agenda-driven basis. It asks the question: "what result do we wish to achieve?", then plays up, plays down, or blacks out stories accordingly.

Posted by: Rahman bin Rahman at May 10, 2008 12:15 PM

The brave lions of jihad strike again! Mowed down like hay when they go up against soldiers, they go after 13-year-old girls!

Posted by: Kepha at May 10, 2008 2:24 PM

I think Hugh is onto something here....play on their sense of superstition. Seems to me that if we could guide some small meteors (detachable j-dam w/fins) onto their villages, they themselves might change their ways because "Allah" is angry with them.

Also Lori B. is dead-on with one exception: Remember the men who raped that couple in S. Arabia? They also raped the man who was with that unmarried woman, who was sentenced-then-commuted to, what was it...a hundred lashes?. This family may suffer far beyond our civilized imaginations before they are killed.

We must help catch these men, down to the last one. It's prison rules time in Bangladesh.

Posted by: No More Ham, Ed at May 10, 2008 2:40 PM

Hugh, upcoming floods in Bangladesh are a certainty if the current trend in global warming, with its gradual melting of the ice caps, continues. Every other area that is barely above sea level would also be affected. Although there is current debate as to its causes, the data that global warming is occurring is incontrovertible. I have not yet seen any discussion, anywhere, about the refugee problem, possibly of massive proportions, this implies if sea levels rise significantly as a result of the melting of the ice caps. Appealing to the superstitions of affected populations about the causes of such flooding might be good as a tactical social measure, but when the flooding comes it won't make a whit's difference about what the religions of the affected people are. Pat Robertson once claimed he could affect the course of hurricanes by prayer. We all know how that turned out.

Posted by: Eastview at May 10, 2008 2:48 PM

“Five people lying in ambush in the pitch-dark near the toilet snatched her..."

"People? My bet is that these "people" were male.

These five aren't people. They're lower than the lowest animal.

I hope more of the same...people...don't kill this girl for the crime of being raped.

Posted by: Abscedere at May 10, 2008 4:06 PM

Muhammad's own acts, as recorded in the earliest biographies by pious Muslims, give license to sick people to act out sick desires and impulses, desires for rape of minors, for example. Muhammmad's example and doctrine open the doors of hell for those inclined.

Those who still don't see this are either in denial, or are ignorant.

Posted by: traeh at May 10, 2008 5:06 PM

Of course, by raping her the Muslims doubtless imagined in their little tiny minds that they were 'dishonoring' her - that her family would therefore be unutterably shamed, that her family might 'honour' kill her or throw her out, as a Muslim family under such circumstances would probably do.

They were trying to inflict on her father and on the Christians what they themselves would experience as the ultimate humiliation. They wanted to destroy.

But they chose the wrong weapon against the wrong target. This Christian father LOVES his daughter and BELIEVES her testimony; he KNOWS she is innocent, and he lays the blame fair and squarely where it belongs, on the evil men who hurt and harmed her. She is physically and emotionally harmed, but she is still surrounded by the love and acceptance of her family, as any raped daughter is, in a Christian culture.

Posted by: dumbledoresarmy at May 10, 2008 5:46 PM

The things Muslims do .. for the sake of Islam.

Are Muslims in your neighborhood?

Posted by: pulsar182 at May 10, 2008 5:54 PM

"There was even no land dispute between him and the neighbors, because he does not have any land.”"

So, if he had had land and there was a dispute, then that would justify the act or at least help explain it?? Insane.

Dear God. These uncivilized and backwards people are like animals. No, that's an insult to animals. Many animals are quite intelligent.

Whatever happened to "the law of God written on every human heart" (which I do believe in)? The Islamic brainwashing must be so deep, Muslims can't even think straight. Can't apply reason. Can't apply logic. Were it not so, you would think at some point in their 1,400 year history eventually a light would go on and they would think, "Hey, wait a minute. All this stuff we believe in and have been taught...this is pretty screwed up right here."

Sick.

Posted by: Madame Vengier at May 10, 2008 6:13 PM

.They will probably rape him next.

Posted by: pulsar182 at May 10, 2008 9:11 PM

This is certainly a problem for Christians and Infidels in other lands where Muslims are a boisterous minority. Sweden and Norway's police go the extra-special mile to cover up the fact that most rapes reported by natives are by immigrant Muslim men. Gang rapes are not unheard of, but with a compliantly hushed press in tandem with police nullification, there's just no crime, here people. Move on. In France, muslim women (protected against rape and harassment by the magical powers of the hijab, which renders them invisible and non persons, as well) have formed Ni Putes Ni Soumises. Now why would these headscarf protected women need to form an organization with the name Neither Whores nor Doormats, loosely translated? Maybe the hijab and moveable tents they must wear are not quite working for them. So these French Muslim women are trying to garner for themselves the basuc rights that the other women in France have. They are regularly threatened, too. In spite of their garb.
This case is particularly egregious, as was the post Ramadan trophy hunters' slayings of Christian girls on their way to school in Indonesia. Yet not a word in the press about it.
Western women must be more concerned about what happens to those poor swarthy invisible sisters of theirs, else they, like Martin Niemuller stated many years before, will find themselves without anyone to speak on their behalf, when the Muslim Hordes came for them.

Posted by: Jewel Atkins at May 11, 2008 12:49 AM

"the data that global warming is occurring is incontrovertible. I have not yet seen any discussion, anywhere, about the refugee problem, possibly of massive proportions, this implies if sea levels rise significantly as a result of the melting of the ice caps."Posted by: Eastview

I don't know if the evidence that global warming is occurring is "incontrovertible." That's a debate for another forum! But yes, I agree that natural disasters like floods, regardless are going to continue to create more and more refugee problems, especially as the populations of the most vulnerable areas continue to expand far beyond their abilities to feed and shelter themselves even in the best of circumstances, let alone after a major disaster. Floods aren't necessarily becoming more commonplace, but when they happen they are affecting larger and larger numbers of people. It's demography. And not to sound callous, but Bangladesh has always had catastrophic floods. Like many (but not all) Third World nations it's a miserable and wretched country, full of mostly miserable and wretched people who nonetheless have a birthrate about 7 or 8 times as high as most Western countries. Combine that with an enlightened and humanitarian West that believes it has a moral obligation to let all these wretched in, and yes, it is no small wonder we have a "refugee problem." The West is killing itself with kindness.

Posted by: angloirishslav at May 11, 2008 1:00 AM

of course the MUSLIM po lice will not want to file rape charges against there brother barbarians since there were not 4 muslim males as witnesses in muslim eyes there was no rape just a christen whore spreading her legs and begging for sex

Posted by: crusader at May 11, 2008 1:03 AM

To be sent to CNN .Horrible

Posted by: Tartine at May 11, 2008 1:05 AM

"By its fruit will you know the tree".

Islam is evil.

It authorizes any vile behavior imaginable, so long as the perpetrator can in some way represent that his actions are intended to "further the spread of Islam".

Any belief system that requires rape, murder and terror to spread itself is --no other word for it-- EVIL.

And our elected officials still want to believe that if they talk nice (**) to the monster, it won't devour them... and the rest of us as well.

(**)
("Peace! Religion of Peace, yes -- it is, I see it now! There is no jihad! There is no violence! There is no danger! Respectable, reasonable, compassionate, moderate religion of peace...")

Posted by: A_Nonny_Mouse at May 11, 2008 1:38 AM

Through out history, the gang rape of a Christian daughter has been part of the dhimmitization of communities. Destroying your beloved child will subdue you.

Those sick bastards. Nothing holy about them.

Posted by: thelittlegreekwoman at May 11, 2008 2:02 AM

"Bangla Desh will be suffering from huge floods in coming decades. Possibly a quarter or a third of the low-lying plain will be flooded."

- posted by Hugh

"the data that global warming is occurring is incontrovertible"

-posted by Eastview

Nonsense.
More scare mongering by those interested in creating panic and pushing the global warming scam/carbon trading farce.
One wonders what Hugh's backgound is, where he is from and why he is pushing two panic agendas so strongly.

"Kiwis believed joining the Kyoto Protocol - as Australia did earlier this year - would lead to carbon earnings of $500 million. Instead, the poor little place (which only generates 0.2 per cent of the world's human-caused CO2) faces a Kyoto bill of around $1 billion.

The really cool part is that - under the Byzantine Kyoto protocol - most of the $1 billion will go to Russia, which generates about 6 per cent of CO2 (more than Japan and India).

So a clean, non-polluting small country has to pay a gigantic smogtropolis. Makes sense.

Having shaken down the Shaky Isles for all that carbon cash, are the Russians at least using it to buy solar buggies and hemp shopping bags?

The hell they are. In fact, they're even refusing to accept any caps on carbon emissions beyond 2012, when Kyoto II kicks in.

"Our emerging middle class demands lots of energy," said Russia's Kyoto czar, Vsevolod Gavrilov, "and it is our job to ensure comfortable supply. We don't plan to limit the use of fuel for our industries. We don't think this would be right." Ha! Take that, Helen Clark.

In other komical Kyoto kapers, Greece has been suspended from UN carbon trading for breaking greenhouse gas reporting rules and Canada faces investigation - by the UN's sinister Kyoto "enforcement branch" - for the same thing.

Canada, by the way, has overshot its Kyoto target by 25 per cent. Under UN rules, this means they have to hand over their entire country to Malta.

The UK Government has missed some 60 per cent of the environmental targets set since 1997, according to a report released this week, and we are warned in Australia of fuel costs rising by 10c a litre to cover the Rudd Government's emissions trading scam.

Japan - where the Kyoto Protocol was hatched - will easily blow out its own Kyoto target (meant to cut emissions by 6 per cent, the amount has actually grown).

Meanwhile, China has medium-term plans for 500 new coal-fired power plants, rendering pointless any Western carbon reductions."
http://www.news.com.au/dailytelegraph/story/0,22049,23671681-5001031,00.html

Posted by: Mike_W at May 11, 2008 2:44 AM

Where would you rather live:
Dar al-Islam where rape is a punishment or
Dar al-Harb where rape is a crime?

Posted by: jay at May 11, 2008 11:54 AM

"Let me guess: Muslim Police?"
Posted by: pulsar182

What do you think? Of course the police are Muslim. And so will be the prosecutor and judges if it comes to this.

Posted by: Eastview at May 11, 2008 6:49 PM

Although it's slightly OT, "Global Warming" has become such a charged term that one should perhaps qualify one's usage of it. The question here pertains to the long term effects on melting of the ice caps, which has been amply documented by satellite data. If it persists long enough the accompanying rise in sea level will affect large, heavily populated areas of the world and the question is where will these people go? What's controversial about Global Warming is the underlying cause, i.e., whether is it man-made or natural?

Although the underlying cause behind observed shrinkage of the polar caps may be controversial, the fact that they are shrinking is well documented. I live in interior Alaska, and have witnessed first hand the steady retreat of glaciers and melting of the permafrost that has occurred over recent decades. Winters here see -60F (-50C) more and more infrequently. My colleagues who specialize in arctic research and who travel extensively in Russia report that similar changes are occurring there, as well.

Posted by: Eastview at May 11, 2008 7:16 PM

Question: is there a wealthy Christian businessman or woman, reading this, somewhere in Canada, or the United States, or Australia, who might be prepared to become a guardian angel/ fairy godmother, and foot the bill for Elina Das to receive medical care, psychological counselling, and to complete her high school studies in a well-heeled, top-quality Christian girls' residential college in a Western country or in one of those provinces of India which are plagued by the fewest Muslims? Then, if she does well, a scholarship to a major university.

Spit in the eye of those damnable Muslim rapists by whisking their victim off on a magic carpet to a high-quality education in a safer environment. (High quality legal aid to be provided for the girl and her family to cause maximum embarrassment for the local and national Bangladeshi authorities).

And allow the women in the villages round about to observe and draw their own conclusions: that when Muslim girls get raped, rapee is shunned and most likely murdered by her own family; when Infidel girl is raped, she is showered with healing love and affection by the whole Infidel community - and the rapists are pursued with steely-eyed fury.

Furthermore: INCREASE the resources to all Christian churches engaging in witness in Muslim-majority lands; so that Muslims find that every time they make an attack of this kind, the barrage of Infidel 'alternatives-to-islam', in print, over the airwaves, in audio recordings, INCREASES.

Bright idea #1001: large womens war-chest to be established by wealthy Infidel women in Infidel lands, to pay for medical help, counselling, good lawyers (are there any formidable female or male lawyers out there, prepared to take on Elina's case and that of others like her, pro bono?), relocation to a safer environment [as necessary], publicity campaigns and major political lobbying (of Infidel government leaders, but also, ruthless challenging and shaming of Muslim governments) on behalf of all such non-Muslim victims of Muslim rape.

I say 'Infidel' rather than 'christian' because I know well that, depending on the region, Hindu, Sikh, Buddhist, Taoist/ Confucian and animist girls are just as likely as Christians, to be victims of Muslim rape.

Posted by: dumbledoresarmy at May 12, 2008 3:33 AM

Bless you, Dumbledore. Your compassion and excellent suggestions illustrate perfectly the difference between true civilization and Islam. I hope someone will pick up on this.

Posted by: Eastview at May 12, 2008 3:46 AM

Eastview, anecdotes about local weather patterns and melting glaciers and permafrost does not anthropogenic global warming make.
All evidence points to the weather and climate changing naturally over the millennia.

What NASA Says Is Really Happening to the Arctic Ice Cap
"Many global warming activists point to changes in the arctic icecap as proof of the dangerous effects of man-made global warming. Now a report from NASA's Jet Propulsion Laboratory says those changes are in fact the result of natural ocean circulation patterns. A team of scientists used satellite and deep-sea pressure gauge data to monitor ocean patterns."
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,311884,00.html

Also Eastview, haven't you heard that temperatures have been cooling for ten years?

"What is strange is that the wailing of the global warming proponents is in the face of a temperature record that does not support their theory. Peak global temperature was in 1998 and we have had ten years of cooling since. The satellite record shows that the temperature of the Southern Hemisphere has been flat for the last 30 years. The Earth’s failure to warm has become quite annoying to the global warmers, and signs of cognitive dissonance are appearing in their camp. Surely a few more years of cooling will leave only the true believers in their misanthropic ideology, and the truly idiotic. Or is that moment with us now?
http://blogs.news.com.au/dailytelegraph/timblair/index.php/dailytelegraph/comments/archibald_prize/

Now that the global warming alarmists have discovered that the data doesn't match their rhetoric, they've announced a ten year Global Warming Hudna™ to give them time to think up a new catastrophic theory to match the data.
Climate Change just doesn't cut it any more.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/news.html?in_article_id=563104&in_page_id=1770

Posted by: Mike_W at May 12, 2008 3:02 PM

"...anecdotes about local weather patterns and melting glaciers and permafrost does not anthropogenic global warming make."
posted by Mike_W

I agree that anecdotes don't prove "anthropogenic" global warming and didn't say that they did, and if you read my post carefully you will see that I carefully avoided making that connection. The parent post really had nothing to do with any of this, but this side thread got started because of a comment Hugh made about floods in Bangladesh.

But since we're here, let's continue. I happen to agree that the anthropogenic link has not been proven to the degree that Al Gore has been pushing, and the Kyoto protocols were prematurely agreed to by some countries. It is unfortunate that the whole "green" bandwagon got started rolling as a result of this. It would have been better to hold off on making policies based on incomplete data until such time as a better understanding of the complex earth system has been achieved. With continued research I think that a decent understanding of the dynamics of the sun-earth system will be achieved, possibly including a component based on complex systems theory that shows the limits to computer modeling, but as of now we aren't even close. Nevertheless, the facts are clear that at least arctic warming has occurred during recent years - after all, the arctic ice cap didn't shrink dramatically for no reason. Whether this will continue, or will reverse, or even has already reversed, is, as you have pointed out, worth watching.

As an aside, anecdotes come with varying degrees of credibility. I assume you used this term in reference to my description of conditions here in Alaska in order to somehow trivialize it. Yes, local and regional conditions may differ from global averages, but it is a mistake to assume that such observations are without merit if they are taken in the proper context.

As a final aside, I happen to know James Hansen, Mr. "Global Warming" (in fact we shared the same academic adviser and he even offered me a post doctoral position - that was many years ago). He's in the hot seat these days, but although I disagree with his position, which is based on incomplete data, I tend to put it into perspective. Earth system science is a young field, so mistakes are expected. The important thing is that we are starting to address the earth as a complete, interconnected system. There may be many components in the system that haven't yet been identified that will turn out to play important roles in the operation of the "terrestrial machine" but hopefully these will be worked out in due time.

Finally, I'm delighted to see someone who is knowledgeable about these issue on JW/DW. Although some of the posters here tend be engage in excessive hyperbole on some issues, hopefully posters such as yourself with a background in science can help keep things rational.

Posted by: Eastview at May 12, 2008 7:05 PM

Mike_W, I forgot to comment on the links you provided. Fox News always has a political agenda, so while I watch it regularly they are not particularly credible in their science reporting because I think they select their reports according to whether they support this agenda.

About the other link from Australia - I'm always suspicious of authors who go out of their way to portray how "cool" they are (in this case, a climate researcher, a cancer researcher, and an oil prospector, all rolled into one!). While he appears to have an exceptionally wide range of interests, this generally also tends to go with not being expert in any of them. The article was also loaded with shrill rhetoric, a sure sign of an amateur. The comments from posters at the bottom of the article were mostly over the top and were also clearly made by amateurs.

About the JPL report he alludes to: the claim that melting of the ice cap is due to ocean currents is actually quite reasonable, and I have often wondered about that, as well. One of the problems with it, though, is that this explanation does not account for the shrinking glaciers, which are all inland and much farther to the south.

There could be a link to the permafrost, if the local climate was somehow influenced or modulated by currents in the Arctic Ocean. However, interior Alaska north of the Alaska Range gets its weather largely from Siberia to the West, so it's not clear how ocean currents to the north would be able to produce enhanced melting of permafrost in the interior regions (or in Siberia, where the same thing is going on). So, while the UW researchers who did this work are thinking right about the problem, they still haven't thought it all the way through.

The solar cycle connection, while it has many supporters, mostly from the Space Physics field, might be considered to be "anecdotal" in the sense that no one has yet offered a credible mechanism by which this occurs. Most of the mechanisms that have been proposed in this area are really no more than "hand waving" appeals to reasonableness, but without any quantitative foundation rooted in physics. Does this mean the connection is not valid? Not at all, but correlation does not necessarily imply causation.

Posted by: Eastview at May 12, 2008 8:22 PM

"hopefully posters such as yourself with a background in science can help keep things rational."

Eastview, a background in science is not necessary when commenting on climate alarmism; just ask Al Gore, he has no scientific qualifications whatsoever.
As for keeping things rational; well that is no longer possible, as the alarmists have declared the matter settled and any dissenters heretics who deserve some hideous and painful fate.

You say that Fox News always has a political agenda.
Now that is funny, considering that so much of the media these days seems to be run with a blatant Leftist agenda, which includes the Global Warming scare.
Anyway, here's a different link to the NASA study from a site you might consider less biased:
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2007/11/071113200545.htm

Posted by: Mike_W at May 13, 2008 4:26 AM

Mike_W,

Thanks for the link. That was very informative. I think we're actually both on the same side on this issue. And, yes, I do always don my "inverse Fox" filter whenever I watch them, largely because I am wary of any news source that would so loudly trumpet how "Fair and Balanced" they are. Although news reports about objective facts should not be judged according to who happens to be reading the teleprompter, the medium does influence the message, and I just happen to be turned off by all the flashiness of Fox News. Makes me want to reach for my wallet to see if it is still there. I also have similar filters and views about all the MSM.

It's true that a background in science is not necessary when commenting on climate alarmism, but it doesn't hurt and might even help. Where it comes in handy is that it provides the tools and concepts for understanding research that is being undertaken and the reasonableness of claims that are being promoted. The global warming champions erred in claiming an understanding of causes and effects in the earth system that they do not, in fact, possess. Basing policy decisions that have global consequences on this was irresponsible.

The process of claims, counterclaims, etc. happens all the time in the early phases of new research areas, in fact is the norm. However, the great thing about the scientific enterprise is that it has built-in self-correcting mechanisms that will quickly, or at least eventually, uncover any errors. What we are witnessing now is this self-correction process in action. The guys at UW who reported their results in GRL are part of this effort, and so are you.

The sad thing about Al Gore is not that he is lacking in formal scientific credentials, per se, but that he allowed himself to be manipulated. He actually happens to be one of the more intelligent people in politics, but somewhat naive and gullible. I can't account for the Nobel Committee's actions. The only thing I can think of that might "explain" this is that the Nobel Peace Prize is unlike the other prizes that are awarded only after the research has stood the test of time, and is prone to being swayed by transient political forces (after all, they did give the prize to Yassir Arafat and Jimmy Carter).

Posted by: Eastview at May 13, 2008 4:47 PM

What do you expect from animals? I take that back, it's an insult to animals.

Posted by: DaveMate at May 14, 2008 1:47 PM

Although it's slightly OT, "Global Warming" has become such a charged term that one should perhaps qualify one's usage of it.

The planet is not getting warmer, in fact is on the verge of cooling. That is why even the professional warmists have decided to ditch the warming issue. Now they call it "climate change". Much safer.

Posted by: DP111 at May 14, 2008 7:28 PM

Dumbledore

Great posts - a mixture of compassion for the victims, and anger at Islamic inhumanity. Needless to say, Islamic inhumanity is part and parcel of Islam.

I have taken the liberty of re-posting your posts elsehere, with full accreditation to you.

Posted by: DP111 at May 14, 2008 7:32 PM

"The planet is not getting warmer, in fact is on the verge of cooling. That is why even the professional warmists have decided to ditch the warming issue. Now they call it 'climate change. Much safer."
Posted by: DP111

I don't think anyone can say with confidence which way it will go, for the simple reason that all the various processes that control the dynamics of the earth system have not yet been identified. The term Climate Change should have been the term used from the very beginning, since it is nonjudgmental about processes that are not understood, or that are controversial.

To get our arms around this problem, what's needed is to adopt an engineering systems approach for describing the coupled sun-earth system, with quantitative account being taken of all the links that extend from the sun to the earth and into its interior. Eventually I think researchers will adopt such an approach, but as of now the science is still factionalized among atmospheric scientists, space scientists, ocean scientists, etc. It doesn't help that agencies like NASA are internally organized modularly, with each module specialized into regions like the atmosphere, the magnetosphere, etc. I'll resist the temptation to editorialize about the negative effects this organizational structure is having on science, but it is substantial and is partly the reason the research has proceeded in the direction it has.

Each research specialty tends to develop its own perspective and brings its own vocabulary to the problem. They use the tools and concepts they understand, which often don't apply particularly well to the the problem at hand. There is usually inadequate communication between specialties, i.e., the left hand/right hand problem. Where the biggest source of error in climate change studies presently occurs is in the poorly known, or incorrectly specified, boundary conditions across the interfaces between adjacent regions, e.g., the ocean-atmosphere interface, or how changes in solar luminosity trickle through the system to affect the planetary albedo, hence temperature.

Even within the atmosphere alone a basic understanding of the broad features of the dynamics of hurricanes and typhoons is only starting to emerge. Ocean circulation is beginning to be mapped out, but how this influences the atmosphere on decadal or longer time scales is not understood. To my knowledge no one has touched the question of how to treat the lithosphere-ocean interface. Yet the effect of the heat flux emanating from the interior of the earth dwarfs every other source, including solar insolation. It is thought to be nearly constant, so can be factored out of the equations, but because of its magnitude even a slight hiccup in the way of seismic shifts or volcanoes produces major effects. These linkages are not present in any of the current system models, to my knowledge, but a single large volcano exceeds by orders of magnitude the totality of manmade hydrocarbon emissions over a very long period of time. Still another effect that is poorly understood and is completely left out of current models is the nitrogen fixation by lightning, both in the troposphere and the newly discovered forms that commonly occur in the upper atmosphere (sprites).

Another more prosaic problem is that there isn't even a decent definition for "global temperature" that makes sense, so discussions about "global warming" or "global cooling" tend to suffer from the Red Queen Syndrome (ref. Alice in Wonderland, where the Red Queen asserts that words mean whatever she wants them to mean), with lots of shouting being the result.

Posted by: Eastview at May 15, 2008 5:29 AM