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She wanted to live like a German, as did Hatin Sürücü. And so again, the same question that was asked when Hatin Sürücü was murdered: "How many more women have to die before this society wakes up?"
"Honor Killing Victim Wanted to Live Like other German Girls," from Spiegel (thanks to all who sent this in):
At age 16, all Morsal Obeidi wanted was to live the way other girls in Germany do. She paid dearly: Obeidi's brother stabbed her 20 times. Her murder has sparked a renewed debate in Germany about the failure of many immigrant families to integrate into Western society.[...]
Morsal met with Mohammed, her cousin, on the evening of May 15, a Thursday. They were sitting in a McDonald's restaurant. Morsal had only been back in the city for a few months, after a prolonged visit with relatives in Afghanistan. It was spring in Hamburg. As they ate, Mohammed thought about the plan that he was keeping a secret from Morsal. It seemed harmless enough. Mohammed said later that Ahmad, Morsal's brother, had asked him to bring his sister to the Berliner Tor train station. "He said to me: 'I want you to meet Morsal today. Then walk to the Berliner Tor with her. But don't tell her anything. I just want to talk to her."
It seemed harmless enough.
Morsal and Mohammed arrived at the suburban railway station shortly after 11 p.m. They walked around the corner to a small parking lot next to an apartment building, where they sat down to smoke a cigarette. At 11:20 p.m., Ahmad suddenly appeared out of the darkness. Morsal recognized him -- and froze. Ahmad approached his sister and then, without saying a word, began stabbing her. He stabbed her a few times. "I think he must've taken something first. Drugs. Or maybe he got drunk. I tried to stop him, but he pushed me away," says Mohammed.
Ahmad Obeidi, 23, is a strong, athletic young man. Morsal tried to run away, but she stumbled and fell. Ahmad stood over her and continued to stab her, five times, ten times, still silent as he swung his right arm up and down over his sister's body. He seemed intoxicated. The police counted 20 stab wounds, inflicted with such force that Ahmad would later wear a bandage on his right forearm.
Morsal screamed, waking up the residents of the apartment building. Passersby called the police. Ahmad fled to a nearby subway station, and Mohammed followed him. The two cousins boarded a train, where they sat silently across from each other, a killer and his accomplice.
Morsal died.
[...]
In the days following the crime, it was frequently referred to as an "honor killing." A murder for the sake of honor? Is this even possible? Doesn't a man who cold-bloodedly kills his own sister, a girl seven years his junior, little more than a child, in fact lose all honor?
A Criminal for Whom Germany Was Foreign
The family was certainly not without its problems. But there was a critical difference between Morsal, who wanted nothing more than to be free, and Ahmad, who was a criminal to whom Germany had always been a foreign place. He staggered through life, unstable, a failure in life. He killed his sister for having become too comfortable in the ways of the West. He resented her for her uncovered hair, her makeup and her short skirts.
[...]
Morsal, unlike her older sister, was obstinate. She was 14 when she began to resist her parents' authority. She was tired of being complacent, of living according to the old Afghan rules, which seemed irrelevant to her life in Hamburg. She argued with her parents about her appearance and her behavior, her uncovered hair, her makeup, her tight jeans and about smoking and drinking. They argued about her friends and acquaintances. For former fighter pilot Ghulam-Mohammed Obeidi, the family's reputation was at stake. It was the only thing he had left to lose.
A Father and Son Turned Violent
The police say that he became violent, and so did his son Ahmad. They were losing control over Morsal, and losing their self-control in the process. "You are bringing shame to the family," they said to her.
[...]
A number of attacks on Morsal are also noted in his police file. But most of the attacks were never reported -- or documented. According to police records, Ahmad beat up his sister on Nov. 1, 2006. The older sister, the report reads, scratched Morsal in the face as she was lying on the ground. There were more blows on Nov. 8, 2006. This time Ahmad threatened her with a knife, but without using it. He shouted at Morsal, accusing her of violating the family honor. Morsal filed a complaint against her brother, and she was returned to the KNJD. On Jan. 19, 2007, Ahmad allegedly beat her up again, this time in the office of the family's used car and bus dealership. His sister dressed like a slut, Ahmad told the police.
[...]
The Obeidis are not a noticeably conservative family. Nevertheless, it valued traditions, and one of them was to defend the family's property: zar (gold), zamin (property) and zan (women). In their traditional world, it was set in stone that these things are the property of the man....
Read it all.
Posted by Robert at May 27, 2008 7:53 PM
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Outside the anti-jihad blogosphere crickets are chirping and pins are dropping.
Posted by: Madame Vengier![[TypeKey Profile Page]](http://www.jihadwatch.org/dhimmiwatch/nav-commenters.gif)
at May 27, 2008 8:07 PM
I put this up a few hours ago and the denials are coming in already:
http://sheikyermami.com/2008/05/27/germany-no-honor-in-killing/
Actually, dishonor killings are believed to have their origins in misinterpretations of pre-Islamic Arab tribal codes. They pre-date Islam by centuries and are, in fact, un-Islamic. They have more to do with culture and also occur in parts of the subcontinent that are not Islamic.
Ellen R. Sheeley, Author
Reclaiming Honor in Jordan
at May 27, 2008 9:28 PM
sheik,
This one posts here as ERS; she usually seems sentient. Elsewhere, she bleats the "un-Islamic" inculcation, sometimes verbatim to the quote above.
http://www.jihadwatch.org/dhimmiwatch/archives/020807.php#c536370
http://www.jihadwatch.org/archives/021058.php#c542470
http://www.jihadwatch.org/dhimmiwatch/archives/019724.php#c502931
http://www.jihadwatch.org/archives/019683.php#c501591
http://arabracismislamofascism.wordpress.com/2007/11/01/oh-just-another-peaceful-stoning-girl-this-one-
http://www.prestoncitizen.co.uk/news/headlines/display.var.1703773.0.i_feared_for_my_life.php
at May 27, 2008 10:47 PM
They pre-date Islam by centuries and are, in fact, un-Islamic
Who says Islam is not supported by science? It is the original cultural wormhole allowing ancient pagan practices to pass unaltered through space-time into the future.
Posted by: Concerned Citizen at May 27, 2008 10:52 PM
Sorry, Ellen, but Honor Killings are Islamic. Honor Killings occur in ALL Islamic countries, and since Islam is a total-belief system, then it follows that Honor Killings are Islamic. You can say "cultural," that's fine - the culture is Islamic.
And before you start with your Indian examples, ok, it's said that some parts of Hindu culture practice Honor Killings. OK - satisfied now? It's not only Islamic - but it IS PREDOMINANTLY Islamic.
Posted by: darcy at May 27, 2008 11:53 PM
Errata Sheet
For "Her murder has sparked a renewed debate in Germany about the failure of many immigrant families to integrate into Western society."
Read "Her murder has sparked a renewed debate in Germany about the failure of almost all Muslim immigrant families to truly integrate into Western society."
Posted by: Hugh at May 28, 2008 12:20 AM
Her murder has sparked a renewed debate in Germany about the failure of many immigrant families to integrate into Western society.
Let's see if it's even possible to enumerate all the misleading euphemistic propaganda in that single sentence.
I mean that bastard is a masterpiece!
"the failure of many immigrant families" - Hmmm... Let's see. We'll start with the word "families".
The clear implication here is that this is a family problem, not a matter of straight up individual responsibility. It falls into the realm of group psychology, family psychology & family counseling. You see it's not a murderous thug killing his own blood kin on the basis of his perverted moral standards and corrupted character, it's a family problem -- his sister no doubt contributed her share, albeit subconsciously.
Let's move on to "immigrant families". How much do I have to say here? We all know that those out-of-control Thai restauranteurs are just absolutely blood-thirsty. Not to mention those monsters from British influenced Christians from Ghana. And those awful Eskimos that have been driving everybody crazy lately.
Give me a freaking break!
So we expand our scope to "the failure of many immigrant families" -- phew!
The word failure implies that there is some intention, that something has been attempted but the desired result was not achieved. I'll give our "journalist" the benefit of the doubt on this one and assume that he/she simply means that something wasn't done, not that there was a failed attempt to do something.
So we move naturally on to ... failure ... to integrate into Western society.
So what are we to believe here? People who are "integrated" into western society don't kill their blood kin on a whim, whereas people who are not "integrated" into western society do!
So that must be why I keep reading those press reports about African bush people murdering their sisters all the time, not to mention those blood-thirsty mother-killing bastards in Tokyo and Bangkok, not to mention of course those horrible Eskimos again -- and need I mention a couple of billion people in China and India, renowned everywhere for their unbreakable habit of 86ing their siblings and cousins.
Why it's absolutely normal everywhere, except of course, western society -- where one has to be "integrated" of course.
It's one of the more quaint peculiarities of western society that we don't murder our kin with relish and abandon like pretty much everyone else.
But we'll give our "journalist" another benefit of another doubt. Let's imagine that he/she is asserting that it's the "failure to integrate" that's responsible for all the trouble.
And certainly this is equally plausible. We all know a dozen examples. People come in from these odd cultures in east Asia and Africa, speaking their odd outlandish languages, set up their little exclusive neighborhoods with their odd foreign ways of doing business in their odd foreign looking shops, and generally fail to "integrate".
Well, we all know the cases. They arrive in western culture without a hostile thought in their innocent heads. But once they fail to "integrate", well! It's hide the cutlery Mama, Junior's about to make mincemeat of his sister!
Tragic, the way it happens to all those innocent nice people who, despite their best efforts, simply fail to "integrate".
==============
And all that from 1 sentence.
They want us to talk to the mullahs in Persia!
Hell. I don't think that we can talk to the writers at Der Spiegel.
at May 28, 2008 12:43 AM
Here's a good bit:
"When the communists came into power in 1978, the supporters of the king were the first to leave Afghanistan. In 1989, the communists fled the victorious mujahedeen. After the Taliban was ousted in 1996, many of its supporters also went abroad. In other words, each group was fleeing from the next group that would follow it into exile."
So WHY did these idiot bureaucrats let Taliban supporters into Germany? Although in this case the family was not among them, their influence obviously led other Afghans to try to be 'more religious than the Joneses'.
Posted by: Lili at May 28, 2008 1:13 AM
Actually, dishonor killings are believed to have their origins in misinterpretations of pre-Islamic Arab tribal codes. They pre-date Islam by centuries and are, in fact, un-Islamic. They have more to do with culture and also occur in parts of the subcontinent that are not Islamic.
Ellen R. Sheeley, Author
Reclaiming Honor in Jordan
Who cares where and when savages began murdering females to restore their honor? So honor killings predate islam---so what? This is simply one more Arab perversion that perfectly complemented islam's contempt for females and remained a part of Arab/islamic culture after the Arab savages became islamic savages.
It is predominately practiced by muslims (wherever they may reside) and that makes it an islamic anomaly. It is accepted by islamic society and islamic jurists and if the perpetrator is punished at all, it is quite lenient for the crime of pre-meditated murder. If it was considered un-islamic by muslims, the murderer would be beheaded or imprisoned for life.
Posted by: Susanp at May 28, 2008 1:48 AM
The Islamic cuckoo's eggs are hatching throughout the West.
Changlings replacing the natives.
And local idiots feeding them.
Posted by: profitsbeard at May 28, 2008 2:19 AM
I don't think it helps to overstate our case. Honour killings are a cultural phenomenon (they also occur in Christian families in the Middle East). However it is damning enough to point out that Islam has failed to eradicate this practice. It is not condoned by religious authorities, but is obviously connived at at a local level and the secular authorities have not seen fit to takes steps to eradicate the practice.
However, I think there are elements in Islam which all play their part in the continuation of honour killings, even if the specific practice is condemned.
As others have said in every case tribalism triumphed over Islam. However, Islam does not, as I see it, condemn the attitudes and morality associated with tribalism, it just tries to define the muslim community as one big tribe. And consequently there is no Golden Rule.
Islam condones the use of violence to assert dominance over others and sees its honour as residing therein. And because it says such an end and such means are ok, it is deeply compromised if it tries to eradicate such attitudes and behaviours at family, clan or tribe level.
Posted by: kgordon at May 28, 2008 5:58 AM
"she wanted to live like other German girls"
that's right, she wanted to live...
Muslim women are getting tired of Islamic BS.
at May 28, 2008 7:16 AM
So far as I know, when American society HAS policed female sexual honor, it has never resorted to murder. The Puritans publicly humiliated offenders of both sexes. More recently politicians have demonized poor (read colored poor) women for having babies out of wedlock, driving up welfare costs and causing crime. And there are many sad examples of husbands or boyfriends killing their ex-wives/girlfriends, or even their kids, out of jealousy. But I have never read of Anglo or Hispanic American fathers, brothers or cousins murdering female relatives to protect their own "honor," not even in the 17th century. Nor black Americans or American Indians. Anyone know differently?
Posted by: sceptico at May 28, 2008 7:42 AM
"They pre-date Islam by centuries and are, in fact, un-Islamic"
Wait a minute! Mankind lived in darkness before Islam. Mohammed told us so.
No matter where the notice of "honor" killings came from - They are tolerated in Islamic cultures. They are NOT tolerated in the West.
'Nuff said.
Posted by: tanstaafl at May 28, 2008 8:09 AM
What is really confusing me, a white Anglo male who came through the feminist 70's and the "I am woman hear me roar" palaver, is the silence of feminists.
I hear very little outrage from women. Women would make great changes in society if they voted against dhimmis, and shunned men who will not confront the new Nazis imported into our countries.
Did any of us ever imagine that "honour" killing would be a problem in Western culture in the 21st century? It's time to remove Muslim barrows who approve of such barbarity.
Posted by: Guy Macher at May 28, 2008 8:50 AM
I am sorry for the girl. Maybe she would be still alive if she stayed in her country.
Posted by: Matamoros at May 28, 2008 9:03 AM
Actually, dishonor killings are believed to have their origins in misinterpretations of pre-Islamic Arab tribal codes. They pre-date Islam by centuries and are, in fact, un-Islamic. They have more to do with culture and also occur in parts of the subcontinent that are not Islamic.
Ellen R. Sheeley, Author
Reclaiming Honor in Jordan
Who cares where and when savages began murdering females to restore their honor? So honor killings predate islam---so what? This is simply one more Arab perversion that perfectly complemented islam's contempt for females and remained a part of Arab/islamic culture after the Arab savages became islamic savages.
It is predominately practiced by muslims (wherever they may reside) and that makes it an islamic anomaly. It is accepted by islamic society and islamic jurists and if the perpetrator is punished at all, it is quite lenient for the crime of pre-meditated murder. If it was considered un-islamic by muslims, the murderer would be beheaded or imprisoned for life.
Posted by: Susanp at May 28, 2008 1:48 AM
Susanp - I love your comments.
at May 28, 2008 10:30 AM
"...after the Arab savages became islamic savages." Susanp
I just love how you don't mince words!
at May 28, 2008 10:34 AM
Mohammad approved of FGM in the Hadiths.
Which is why this barbaric psychopathological, anti-sexual lunacy appears mostly among Mohammedans today.
The sick seal of the "prophet".
Posted by: profitsbeard at May 28, 2008 10:42 AM
Murder is a crime and people who use the excuse of "honour" are lying to themselves/society.
These murderers, rich or poor, young or old, ALL demand control and will murder anyone to ensure it...
Posted by: rochelle at May 28, 2008 3:50 PM
Rochelle,
Quite right. It is emotionally dishonest and they are lying to themselves and society. And, yes, it is all about control, and the lack of self-esteem which leads people to derive their sense of worth from power and control over others.
That is where I take issue with this site. People will not behave in accordance with any texts, no matter how holy or revered, if the injunctions do not meet their own emotional needs.
Posted by: kgordon at May 28, 2008 6:04 PM
Rochelle,
Quite right. It is emotionally dishonest and they are lying to themselves and society. And, yes, it is all about control, and the lack of self-esteem which leads people to derive their sense of worth from power and control over others.
That is where I take issue with this site. People will not behave in accordance with any texts, no matter how holy or revered, if the injunctions do not meet their own emotional needs.
Posted by: kgordon at May 28, 2008 6:04 PM
Rochelle,
Quite right. It is emotionally dishonest and they are lying to themselves and society. And, yes, it is all about control, and the lack of self-esteem which leads people to derive their sense of worth from power and control over others.
That is where I take issue with this site. People will not behave in accordance with any texts, no matter how holy or revered, if the injunctions do not meet their own emotional needs.
Posted by: kgordon at May 28, 2008 6:09 PM
kgordon,
Please do further explain your issues with this site. Also explain how burkha clad women with osteoporosis, unable to get a job or leave the house without permission or male family escort, having been the victim of and subsequently performing female genital mutilations are getting their emotional needs met.
Posted by: Concerned Citizen at May 28, 2008 10:29 PM
*crickets*
That's what I thought your response would be.
Posted by: Concerned Citizen at June 1, 2008 10:09 PM
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