Wow, what a great exchange! The host actually thought J'slem was in the koran! Ha! I hope this shows up on MEMRI.

How great that the good doctor speaks fluent Arabic - he schooled them in their own language. Brilliant!

Posted by: kutabeach at June 5, 2008 9:39 AM

Good stuff Robert, but I thought it was you who rewrote the Qur'an and incorporated all those nasty passages.

Posted by: awake at June 5, 2008 9:41 AM

The truth cuts like a knife.

Posted by: undaunted at June 5, 2008 9:50 AM

Here is an article by Dr.Kedar regarding Jerusalem and Islam:

http://www.spme.net/cgi-bin/facultyforum.cgi?ID=481

Posted by: PraiaFlamego at June 5, 2008 10:29 AM

From the full article:

He [Dr. Kedar] explained that Al Jazeera takes a jihadic and anti-Israel stance in order to detract viewers' attention from the wealth of the oil-rich Arab kingdoms, including Qatar, where Al Jazeera is based.

"The amount of poison that they disseminate about us from our home is too dangerous, and something had to be done," he recently told the Jewish Forward, referring to the Israeli government's unannounced partial boycott of the network. He labeled Al Jazeera "the mouthpiece of the Muslim Brotherhood," the radical terrorist party that is gaining popularity in Egypt.

Not that this bothers many of the Western journalists who have been lured to this "Muslim Brotherhood mouthpiece" by the big bucks on offer.

Matamoros (original one)

Posted by: Matamoros at June 5, 2008 11:51 AM

Great! This makes my day!

Posted by: Mo Foe at June 5, 2008 11:51 AM

Awesome!

Posted by: Lt. Presley O'Bannon at June 5, 2008 12:14 PM

Tricky rabbit! Facts are for kuffars, not tricky jihadis!

Yep, maybe he was using a "bad" translation of the Qur'an. Or taken Jerusalem out of context.

........he declared, "My friend, I invite you to Jerusalem so you can see with your own eyes that it has become a flourishing city after it was in ruins under Arab rule until 1967. We rebuilt the city and opened it to Christians, Moslems and Jews equally, unlike under Muslim rule" that prohibited other religions....

Jerusalem was a dusty town with camels roaming the streets until the formation of the state of Israel. Darn, another inconvenient fact!

Posted by: tanstaafl at June 5, 2008 12:30 PM

Well that settles it then. Excellent! This chap and Wafa Sultan make a dynamic duo, dismantling the Arab mythology in their own language. Their birdbrain interlocutors are shaking in their boots as their house of cards tumbles slowly but surely.

Posted by: johndoe at June 5, 2008 2:19 PM

Bar Ilan University political scientist Dr. Mordechai Kedar told a Moslem show host on the Arabic-language Al Jazeera television network, "Jews were in Jerusalem while your ancestors were drinking wine and blowing to idols.
the problem is muslims in the middle east tend to believe there own lies and as Jerusalem was occupied by muslims they seem to belive that anything they steal forever belongs to them

Posted by: crusader at June 5, 2008 2:20 PM

Another inconvenient fact, the Bible mentions Jerusalem 632 times.

Posted by: PraiaFlamego at June 5, 2008 3:13 PM

Hey, I thought the original "Matamoros" was Santiago or Saint James, the Moorslayer...

Posted by: former liberal WF at June 5, 2008 5:02 PM

Wow, I'm impressed! I think Dr. Kedar reads JW/DW.

I said this just yesterday on JW:

I'm just waiting for day that someone, perhaps even a future (and strong) Israeli leader will teach these animals some facts of life:

Jerusalem has never belonged to you; does not now belong to you; and will never ever belong to you!

You already have your damned capital - it's called Amman!

I think he needs to be the next Israeli PM.

Posted by: boneshack at June 5, 2008 5:32 PM

Damned Koran!

Never says what it should!

(You'd think they could find some sequence of consonants- that could logically be said to "spell" out "Jerusalem"- somewhere in its 6,666 verses. After 1400 years of looking, I mean.)

Posted by: profitsbeard at June 5, 2008 7:28 PM

The Al Jazeera host responded by quoting a verse from the Koran in which he thought Jerusalem was mentioned by name, but stopped in the middle upon realizing that it only refers to "the farthest place."
...........................................

It never made sense to me, even in the Qu'ran's original context, that "the farthest place" could be assumed to be Jerusalem. Even to provincial Bedoins, Jerusalem isn't all that far, being (geographically speaking) right on the Arabian peninsula.

It's hard to know what the original intent was, but it seems likely that "the farthest place" meant something mystical, like paradise, or perhaps "the ends of the earth". If it did refer to some actual temporal place, it seems more likely that it would be someplace like India, or sub-saharan Africa--somewhere far away from Arabia, and not well understood by Muhammed's contemporaries.

Of course, it gets even weirder when "Al-Aqsa" is translated as "the farthest mosque"--there not being any mosques in Jerusalem at this time. Unless you want to accept the idea that all Jews and Christians were actually Muslims at some undefined point, before they "corrupted" their own texts. In that case, perhaps the Temple in Jerusalem was actually originally a mosque. I've never heard this interpretation, however--Muslims are more likely to deny that there was ever a Temple on the temple mount instead.

Add that Mohammed's famous "Night Journey" was no more than a dream--he never even physically left his bed, even according to his favorite wife, Aisha--and it is a slim reed indeed to hang Muslim claims to the city of Jerusalem on.

Kudos to Dr. Kedar! The much cliched claim of "speaking truth to power" actually applies here.

By the way, nice to see Matamoros (original one) posting. It must be frustrating to have any other poster using the same name--actually having a troll using the same moniker must be almost unbearable. Still, it's an excellent user name, and it's good to see you hanging on to it.

Posted by: gravenimage at June 5, 2008 10:02 PM

Hmmm....

If we accept that Jerusalem is the "farthest place", then doesn't that make Islam illegitimate anywhere further away than that?

We should draw a circle around Mecca with a 769 mile
radius [distance from Mecca to Jerusalem] and insist all Muslims relocate to within that circle, as they can't live further away than the Koran's "farthest place".

Posted by: StevieRay at June 5, 2008 11:58 PM

The spirit of the one-eyed general still lives in Dr. Kedar! It is refreshing to hear his voice compared to Olmert. Yes indeed, he would be a great leader for Israel.

Posted by: Jimmy Bones at June 6, 2008 12:54 AM

"Jews were in Jerusalem while your ancestors were drinking wine and blowing to idols.

Posted by: crusader at June 5, 2008 2:20 PM

The spirit of the one-eyed general still lives in Dr. Kedar!

Posted by: Jimmy Bones at June 6, 2008 12:54 AM

Posted by: Shy Guy at June 6, 2008 3:08 AM

What's weird, though, is that all mosques built in the 7th century point towards - Jeruslem! All except one, that is - in Jerusalem itself.

This nicely contradicts the claim that Muhammad changed the Qibla (direction of prayer) to Mecca in his lifetime.

Islam is broken in every conceivable way.

Posted by: Henrik at June 6, 2008 6:20 AM

In 1963, I was stationed in Tripoli, Libya. Being only a marginally religious person, I read the Koran, mostly out of curiosity. I had no bias pro or con. When finished, I remember my impression was one of incredulity. Their "loving Allah" allowed the killing of anyone who didn't agree with them. It seems only in the fairly recent past that this fact has been revealed world wide.

I am convinced that the continued growth of Islam is from people who fear that, but would rather "switch than fight!" They are also the very same ones who proclaim daily that Jews "occupy" Jerusalem.

They are right, of course, in that statement. It's nothing new...the Jews "occupy" Jerusalem just as they have for thousands of years...long before the Koran was dreamed up.

Posted by: rdt at June 6, 2008 8:59 AM

Pick the bones out of that. FANTASTIC!

Posted by: DaveMate at June 6, 2008 11:39 AM

Gravenimage,

Translating "al-masjid al-aqsa" as "the farthest mosque" and taking it to refer to Jerusalem is indeed bizarre since at the time there was certainly no mosque in Jerusalem, but the word "masjid" is sometimes used to refer to non-Muslim places of worship. "al-masjid al-aqsa" could therefore conceivably mean "the farthest place of worship" and refer to a church or synagogue. Of course, on this interpretation it makes no sense to take the phrase to refer to Jerusalem since there were surely churches and synagogues much farther away than Jerusalem.

Posted by: billposer at June 6, 2008 1:32 PM

Bravo! If there were such a thing as Jewish saints, I'd vote to canonize him instantly.

What a relief to know there are Israeli academics who are actually pro-Israel, not self-hating Norman Finkelstein groupies.

Posted by: angloirishslav at June 7, 2008 6:24 AM

"'Jews were in Jerusalem while your ancestors were drinking wine and blowing to idols.'

Blowing idols? I'm sure the goat had already been discovered by that time."
Posted by: crusader at June 5, 2008 2:20 PM

Blowing idols? I though they only did that in Ancient Rome.

Or does he mean blowing kisses to idols? I've never heard of that being done anywhere, except maybe in Hollywood. The things you learn on this site.

Seriously, though, I suspect this is merely an unfortunate typo and what he actually said was "bowing." But a little comic relief never hurts.

Posted by: angloirishslav at June 7, 2008 6:30 AM

Great so religious law trumps international law? Isnt that what you always condemn Muslims for ? putting religious law over secular?

. "Israeli on Arab TV: J'lem Was Ours When Moslems Worshipped Idols," by Tzvi Ben Gedalyahu for Israel National News, June 5 (thanks to Seth):

er no they werent "Moslems" - 3000 years ago they were pagan Arabs before Islam.

"His reference to Muslims drinking wine, which is forbidden in Islam, infuriated the host."

No because they werent Muslims.
No his denial of the importance of Jeruslam
rightly annoyed the host.

"Rian wagged his finger in the air and said excitedly, ""

In any case its rubbish. So what if it isnt mentioned as Jerusalem in the Quran ? Masjid al aqsa which is in jerusalem is explicitly
Jerusalem isnt mentioned in the Torah of Moses once! does that mean its not important to jews?

http://islam.about.com/library/weekly/aa071200a.htm

Jerusalem was the first "Qibla" for Muslims - the place toward which Muslims turned in prayer. It was many years into the Islamic mission (16 months after the Hijrah), that Muhammad (peace be upon him) was instructed to change the Qibla from Jerusalem to Mecca (Qur'an 2:142-144). It is reported that the Prophet Muhammad said, "There are only three mosques to which you should embark on a journey: the sacred mosque (Mecca, Saudi Arabia), this mosque of mine (Madinah, Saudi Arabia), and the mosque of Al-Aqsa (Jerusalem)."

It is Jerusalem that Muhammad (peace be upon him) visited during his night journey and ascension (called "Israa and Miraaj"). In one evening, the angel Gabriel miraculously took the Prophet from the Sacred Mosque in Mecca to the Furthest Mosque (Al-Aqsa) in Jerusalem. He was then taken up to the heavens to be shown the signs of God. The Prophet met with previous prophets and led them in prayer. He was then taken back to Mecca. The whole experience (which Muslim commentators take literally and Muslims believe as a miracle) lasted a few hours of a night. The event of Israa and Miraaj is mentioned in the Qur’an, in the first verse of Chapter 17 entitled 'The Children of Israel.’

"Glory to Allah, Who did take His servant for a journey by night, from the Sacred Mosque to the Farthest Mosque, whose precincts We did bless - in order that We might show him some of Our signs. For He is the One who hears and knows all things." (17:1)

This night journey further reinforced the link between Mecca and Jerusalem as holy cities, and serves as an example of every Muslim's deep devotion and spiritual connection with Jerusalem.

Posted by: istanbulnotconstantinople at June 7, 2008 9:44 AM

"What's weird, though, is that all mosques built in the 7th century point towards - Jeruslem! All except one, that is - in Jerusalem itself.

This nicely contradicts the claim that Muhammad changed the Qibla (direction of prayer) to Mecca in his lifetime."

Wheres the proof - its just another desperate lie by Orientalists who are broken in every way

http://www.islamic-awareness.org/History/Islam/Dome_Of_The_Rock/qibla.html

Posted by: istanbulnotconstantinople at June 7, 2008 9:47 AM

So what if it isnt mentioned as Jerusalem in the Quran ? Masjid al aqsa which is in jerusalem is explicitly Jerusalem isnt mentioned in the Torah of Moses once! does that mean its not important to jews?...blah, blah...blah, blah....Posted by: istanbulnotconstantinople

How can you post without being able to read. "The farthest place of worship" is not the same as naming "al-Quds". The "al-Masjid al-Aqsa" isn't mentioned in the Tanakh because it wasn't there. And it wasn't built by angels, either.

Read (if you are able) Warraq's Origins of the Koran. That will give you plenty of problems to deal with regarding the initial qibla direction.

But you'd rather just spout ipse dixits and project on others, right? Who is "broken in every way"? Look in the mirror, fraud.

Posted by: Concerned Citizen at June 7, 2008 10:08 AM

istanbulnotconstantinople,

M. Cook and P. Crone, Hagarism: The Making of the Islamic World, Cambridge University Press, 1977, paperback 1980.

I'm not asking you to swallow the book's entire thesis whole, I'm insisting that you do some research on the qibla direction to support your claim to Jerusalem.

Remember, you're the outsider with the foreign opinion here; if you choose to make a naked assertion, no one has any obligation to research your "proof" for you.

Posted by: Concerned Citizen at June 7, 2008 10:41 AM

istanbulnotconstantinople,

Just in case you are still lurking, here is an interesting short read that includes multiple sources on the 7th century qibla, and otherwise demolishes every argument you made above, and also eviscerates essentially all preconceptions of early Islamic history.

www.geocities.com/elf_sopron2005/jay/quran-js.pdf

Again, who is broken?

Posted by: Concerned Citizen at June 8, 2008 12:34 PM

Oh, and since it seems fashionable to attempt to portray many of the authors you call "Orientalists" as having fully recanted their positions (e.g. Patricia Crone, Gerd-Rudiger Puin), you can pre-order Puin's coauthored book, The Hidden Origins of Islam: New Research into Its Early History, coming out in August, 2008.

Indeed, evidence from the Koran, finalized at a much later time, shows that its central theological tenets were influenced by a pre-Nicean, Syrian Christianity. Linguistic analysis also indicates that Aramaic, the common language throughout the Near East for many centuries and the language of Syrian Christianity, significantly influenced the Arabic script and vocabulary used in the Koran. Finally, it was not until the end of the eighth and ninth centuries that Islam formed as a separate religion, and the Koran underwent a period of historical development of at least 200 years.

Hopefully, Puin will illuminate his current position on the 7th and 8th century palimpsests found in the geniza of the Great Mosque of of Sana'a, Yemen.

Posted by: Concerned Citizen at June 8, 2008 3:48 PM

Islam was a parasitic religion right from the start; it tried to assimilate the Jews and claim all their beautiful traditions, texts, holy places and monuments as its own, albeit grotesquely altered, but the Jews weren't having any of it, for which they've never been forgiven.

Posted by: angloirishslav at June 8, 2008 10:57 PM